Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[ryan]

Pineco for D-Rank

Pineco totally rules, and it's one of the few Pokemon that is guaranteed to get up a couple of layers of whatever hazard you need. Level 1 Pineco in particular is pretty much guaranteed to get up Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes so long as the opponent doesn't have a Taunt user or a Rock Blast user, and even if they have the latter, Pineco can still get up one hazard of choice if the opponent only hits twice. It's definitely super-niche, but the ability to get up nearly guaranteed hazards is nice, and it can run Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes and set up whatever hazard is going to be most effective against the opponent. After it has gotten up a hazard, it can also Pain Split against the opponent to bring its health down really low before it dies. Pineco is probably one of the best "suicide leads" if you will because it both sets hazards and practically takes something down with it a lot of the time.

Overall, it's not the most reliable hazard user in the tier by any means, but it's really cool and definitely niche enough to fit into D-Rank. :)

 

[Othesemo]

Pineco for D-Rank

Pineco totally rules, and it's one of the few Pokemon that is guaranteed to get up a couple of layers of whatever hazard you need. Level 1 Pineco in particular is pretty much guaranteed to get up Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes so long as the opponent doesn't have a Taunt user or a Rock Blast user, and even if they have the latter, Pineco can still get up one hazard of choice if the opponent only hits twice. It's definitely super-niche, but the ability to get up nearly guaranteed hazards is nice, and it can run Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes and set up whatever hazard is going to be most effective against the opponent. After it has gotten up a hazard, it can also Pain Split against the opponent to bring its health down really low before it dies. Pineco is probably one of the best "suicide leads" if you will because it both sets hazards and practically takes something down with it a lot of the time.

Overall, it's not the most reliable hazard user in the tier by any means, but it's really cool and definitely niche enough to fit into D-Rank. :)

The thing about Pineco- especially Lvl. 1 Pineco- is that it's absolutely useless past the first few turns, since entry hazards will break its sturdy and it can't take a hit from, well, anything. As such, you pretty much have to use it as a dedicated lead or you'll be playing with a five-mon team. And if your opponent knows what Pineco does- which any experienced player should- then you'll pretty much be forced into an unfavorable situation no matter what you do. I doubt that many teams lack all of a Taunt user, a Multi-hit user, or a Sub+Set up user.

Every time my opponent's used Pineco, it's given me a huge early game advantage which has usually proceeded directly into a win. It'd be a stretch for me to even call it mediocre.

 

[JCM.]

It isn't made to live after the first few turns. You lead with it, and start with Stealth Rock, then Spikes, and if you are facing a hazards lead that isn't Rock Blast Golem, you'll probably get up Stealth Rock + Spikes, and you can even Rapid Spin their hazards away. I actually found Level 1 Pineco really funny to use after the first few turns because you have Pain Split to heal yourself and deal damage, and that is useful to outstall Pokemon that hold a Life Orb, such as Ludicolo. Overall Pineco is a really cool hazards user, D rank or C.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah I'd totally support Pineco for at least D-Rank, it's a really cool hazards user, and Level 1 Pineco is a funny lead, because it can set up both Spikes and Stealth Rock for your team, and Pain Split is also absolutely hilarious, and from a Level 1 Pineco it's basically a Super Fang, so aside from supporting your team with entry hazards (and it has the advantage over Roselia and Scolipede in the sense that it has both SR+Spikes), it can also spin hazards away. I've used it before and it's really hilarious, and it's good as a suicide hazard user. Definitely D-Rank because it has a niche in NU.

 

[Othesemo]

It isn't made to live after the first few turns. You lead with it...

This is my point. Having Pineco on your team basically prevents you from leading with anything else, while simultaneously making it obvious to your opponent what you're going to do. Personally, I don't think a pokemon that virtually guarantees a horrible opening matchup should be considered competitively viable. I get the idea of a suicide lead- having rocks and a layer or two of spikes might be worth running what basically amounts to a five-mon team. However, it is mostly definitely not worth having a five mon team while your opponent has their best pokemon behind a substitute and boosting up. Use Scolipede or Golem- not only are they capable of actually doing something while taunted (or, in Scolipede's case, outrunning the Taunter), they can both be used multiple times in the match.

It's also worth considering that Pineco has almost exactly the same stats as Dwebble, with the sole exception that Dwebble has an at least usable speed stat of 55, as opposed to Pineco's 15. While Pineco does have Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, neither of those are as usable on the first few turns as Spikes and Rocks, since Rapid Spin requires your opponent to decide against abusing Pineco's inability to disrupt your opponent's strategy, and Toxic Spikes is best used after you've eliminated your opponent's Poisons.

 

[ebeast]

I think a couple Pokemon in C-rank need to be moved over to B. For starters Razzles forgot to move up Klang up to mid B, so this is a reminder for him as well :>

The other Pokemon I think should move up to B-rank are: Muk and Zweilous.

We all know the touncher that is Muk, who whiles its coverage isn't the greatest it has a lot of utility in the current metagame. Poison Touch + Poison Jab has a 51% overall chance of inflicting whatever it hits with PSN; allowing it to wear down its counters such as Misdreavus, Piloswine, and Regirock much easier. Shadow Sneak allows it to check Jynx; KOing it after SR at +0 and straight up OHKOing it at +1 from Curse. It can also use Memento over Curse, which I've used before and is pretty fun to let partners set up after you PSN their counters. Muk has good bulk as well; 105/75/100 is fantastic with a Poison-typing. Of course even though it can PSN its counters, it's still not that hard to wall and while it has good bulk it's also worn down over time. It also has 4MSS; it wants to use Curse/Poison Jab/Shadow Sneak/Ice Punch/Brick Break but it can't. This is why I think Muk should be mid B-rank.

Zweilous is something I've used quite a bit. It's really awesome on stall teams due to its Dark/Dragon typing and a pretty good phazer. It's also really bulky and can wall a large majority of the special attackers in the tier including: Charizard, Ludicolo, Shiftry, Eelektross, Musharna etc Obviously it functions best in stall where you can provide it Heal Bell support because RestTalk sucks. Walling a ton of special attackers, phazing, and covering you vs Duosion with Crunch is amazing for stall teams which is why I think Zweilous deserves mid B-rank.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not sure if Zweilious should move up to Mid B-Rank. Sure it walls quite a few special attackers, but it loses to the two best pokemon in the tier: Jynx and Scolipede. Then again, I've never used zweilious, so I'm not sure.

Anyways, I think that Illumise should go down to D-Rank. Illumise is somewhat outclassed by volbeat in the only viable role it can preform since it has a much weaker U-turn and it can't preform any other viable role since it lacks Tail glow. It shouldn't go down to E-Rank however since its not a bad pokemon; just outclassed.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Illumise does have a place though as a weather supporter, especially for rain and sun teams. It can work as a double weather supporter with Volbeat for priority Sunny Day/Rain Dance, and can also priority SubPass, which is pretty cool. It doesn't have Tail Glow, but a weather set with Sunny Day or Rain Dance/Substitute/Baton Pass/Encore could be usable, and Illumise does have its place. I'm not really sure if it's C or D, but I'm just saying that Illumise definitely is a very viable choice on weather teams.

 

[Infernis]

Walling a ton of special attackers, phazing, and covering you vs Duosion with Crunch is amazing for stall teams which is why I think Zweilous deserves mid B-rank.

Also, it's a great early-mid game doorman with a Choice Band that can absolutely flatten many Pokemon if you can manage to hit. once or twice.

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 324-384 (100 - 118.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 159-187 (47.74 - 56.15%) -- 83.98% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 301-355 (56.36 - 66.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

etc etc. Sure, you miss out on bulk, speed, and reliability, but think of the power. Nothing like rampaging through half an opposing team with a chain of landed Outrages.

The bulky sets are much better and what make it suitable for B rank, but the wacky hijinks don't hurt either.

 

[Punchshroom]

Lack of Tail Glow or even a stronger U-turn pretty much leaves Illumise in the dust. Her Wishes are far too small to help anything. The only reason you'd use Illumise over Volbeat is her stronger Special Attack which hardly matters. It's not so much Illumise is terrible, more of she is totally eclipsed by another pokemon.

 

[Raseri]

Illumise has next to no use. It's completely outclassed by Volbeat. I mean why should I use Illumise's weather support set or BP set over Volbeat's? At least Volbeat's weather support set can fake a tail glow pass, which makes your opponent panic if something like Jynx is waiting to receive the boost. Illumise only has an analysis because it's fully evolved. It deserves no rank because it shouldn't be used.

Wrong. Often on rain teams I want to have more than one way to guarantee weather, illumise is just as capable a weather setter as Volbeat. It definitely should be ranked, though should be moved to D now that volbeat is in C. (or maybe low c when we get there idk)

 

[Annoyer]

I agree with Muk to mid-B just because tounching stuff is so good because it wears downa lot of its counters such as Regirock, Piloswine, Alomomola, and Missy. It helps out teammates as well and it can check Jynx pretty well with Shadow Sneak. Its great bulk is cool too for tanking some hits and it can run cool fillers such as Memento or Explosion or even Brick Break to catch Probopass by surprise.

Zweilous to mid-b sounds good because it is overlooked a lot but it is a really good special tank with its amazing typing. Checks Musharna and special attackers sucha s Special rott is really key for stall teams and it can phaze pretty well with a powerful Dragon Tail. Outside of specially defensive resttalk, it can also hit like a truck if it goes on an offensive route but spdef resttalk is its main and best niche in the meta.

CAUSE EBASRT TOLD ME TO

Pelipper for mid-b or low-b because it has roost over mantine which is really helpful considering its excellent typing. it has a couple of cool sets and the main draw to these sets are its typing. One set is specially defensive with scald toxic uturn and roost which basically puts all of its advantages over mantine in one set (uturn and roost) and the set checks ludicolo as well as scarf jynx pretty well. another set i have been using is offensive with hydro pump / hurricane / uturn / roost because it gives momentum and hits pretty hard too with max special attack and roost to heal off sr damage or other attacks. rain dance is ok on pelipper with rain dish but its not that great. so yea pelipper has wings and balls so b pls.

=)~

 

[Blast]

Pineco

Definitely supporting Pineco for D-Rank. Imo, Pineco actually has two viable sets it can run: the lv. 1 Berry Juice lead that was already mentioned, and a lv. 100 Custap lead. Both share the obvious goal of trying to set up as much hazards as possible in the first few turns of the game, but they both do it in somewhat different ways. Berry Juice tries to set up hazards until its Berry Juice is activated, where it can either a) get off a few Pain Splits to wear down the opposing lead, or b) set up one final layer of hazards before it dies. Custap sets up as many hazards as possible until it’s in Custap range, where it can choose to either get up one last layer of hazards or get off an emergency Rapid Spin before dying off. I do realize that both sets have many obvious flaws (hence D-Rank), but I also believe Pineco is legit enough to warrant recognition. It has a solid niche on hyper offense, and that should be reflected.

Zweilous

Zweilous is pretty cool. Like ebeast said, it walls a shitton of special attackers in the tier thanks to its great bulk and can phaze with Dragon Tail and Roar. It's awesome for stall teams as it loves Heal Bell support which teammates can provide, and its phazing abilities are always appreciated. I've used it on balance too, but stall is easily where it shines best. The only problem is, stall is getting harder and harder to pull off in this metagame with offense and Spikes-stacking teams on the rise, and Zweilous in particular absolutely despises Spikes with its lack of recovery. Also, like Magcargo 2 said, Zweilous gets shitted on by Jynx and Scolipede. Mid-B is kinda debatable for me, but I'd say Low-B would be great for Zweilous at least.

Illumise

D-Rank is the best place for this thing. It's pretty much completely outclassed by Volbeat, but there are some rare scenarios where you might want it. It pretty much falls into that "usable-but-no-real-niche" category, as Volbeat does have pretty much everything Illumise has and more. Illumise does have one trick up its sleeve though, and that's Wish. Sure, it’s the nichiest of niches, but it’s at least something, and should be seen as such. Volbeat is still better in pretty much every other situation, but that’s the same reason Illumise fits D-Rank so well.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Audino should go down cause it's outclassed by licki and only has regenerator and a slow encore to save it which licki makes up for with a better bulk and phazing. I'm not saying licki is always better, but most of the time.

Beheeyem has nothing to do in the same tier as gardy, trick room is just not a good strategy in NU, I've never seen it work. Other than that beheeyem is either outclassed by gardy or mushy (and maybe even duosion which is currently in C

zebra to B because our tier leader in zeb. No but seriously, zebstirka has amazing coverage and an extremly strategic speed. It's at least as good as electabuzz if not better.

Also, why is shiftry B ? I won't start debating about it now, but I don't even get what makes it B worthy. It was already pretty bad in last meta and now with 3 more great mons that outspeed and ohko it I'd definately see it as C material.

 

[JCM.]

This is my point. Having Pineco on your team basically prevents you from leading with anything else, while simultaneously making it obvious to your opponent what you're going to do. Personally, I don't think a pokemon that virtually guarantees a horrible opening matchup should be considered competitively viable. I get the idea of a suicide lead- having rocks and a layer or two of spikes might be worth running what basically amounts to a five-mon team. However, it is mostly definitely not worth having a five mon team while your opponent has their best pokemon behind a substitute and boosting up. Use Scolipede or Golem- not only are they capable of actually doing something while taunted (or, in Scolipede's case, outrunning the Taunter), they can both be used multiple times in the match.

It's also worth considering that Pineco has almost exactly the same stats as Dwebble, with the sole exception that Dwebble has an at least usable speed stat of 55, as opposed to Pineco's 15. While Pineco does have Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, neither of those are as usable on the first few turns as Spikes and Rocks, since Rapid Spin requires your opponent to decide against abusing Pineco's inability to disrupt your opponent's strategy, and Toxic Spikes is best used after you've eliminated your opponent's Poisons.

First of all, I'd like to note that not all teams carry Taunt.

Ok, so what, they know you're going to lead with Pineco, what can they do about it? It only loses vs Mold Breaker Sawk and Golem, and the misfortunate Scald burns from Seismitoad. Ok, so you're bringing someone to set up on Pineco? I can just spam Pain Split to deal damage and heal all the way back to my Sturdy, rinse and repeat until the opponent dies (lol). Also not everyone uses a Substitute set-upper. There's a reason it's not much higher, you know, this IS D-Rank.

 

[Punchshroom]

Audino should go down cause it's outclassed by licki and only has regenerator and a slow encore to save it which licki makes up for with a better bulk and phazing. I'm not saying licki is always better, but most of the time.

Beheeyem has nothing to do in the same tier as gardy, trick room is just not a good strategy in NU, I've never seen it work. Other than that beheeyem is either outclassed by gardy or mushy (and maybe even duosion which is currently in C

zebra to B because our tier leader in zeb. No but seriously, zebstirka has amazing coverage and an extremly strategic speed. It's at least as good as electabuzz if not better.

Also, why is shiftry B ? I won't start debating about it now, but I don't even get what makes it B worthy. It was already pretty bad in last meta and now with 3 more great mons that outspeed and ohko it I'd definately see it as C material.

I don't know, those seem like viable advantages to consider Audino over Lickilicky, especially in a hazard-infested metagame. I've always compared the two as equals, neither one being outright better than the other, since they have notable advantages over the other.

Beheeyem stands out amongst its Psychic brethren with its immense power and being one of the very few I've seen to use Trick Room even remotely well (mostly because TR works best if you set it up for yourself and not others), only other notable examples would be Lampent or something. Between Analytic (with Nasty Plot if you wish!) to own defensive teams with boosted assaults, and Trick Room to roll over offensive teams, Beheeyem holds this unique niche no other pokemon can perform. Thunderbolt is also a plus, allowing it to threaten Mandibuzz which Musharna and Duosion have no hope of accomplishing. While it lacks Focus Blast and/or additional STAB, Beheeyem can still give Gardevoir and Jynx competition by not caring about its speed, permitting investment in bulk that either builds up resistance to priority moves while under TR or utilize Analytic as much as possible outside TR. it's mostly the power aspect of Beheeyem that is most appealing about it.

Amazing coverage + strategic speed - great power = limited potential. This basically limits Zeb to weakened targets or opponents vulnerable to SE hits. Electric/Fire/Grass may sport good neutral coverage as Eel has pointed out, but when it comes to hitting neutrally, Zebstrika misses out on a lot of opponents because 80 base Special Attack for an Electric really doesn't make it all that great (Electrode :[ ), especially given its fraility.

I think Shiftry made it into B because of how it can harass nearly every wall in NU due to its coverage and power, Shiftry can even use its ability Early Bird to either absorb Sleep to activate Sleep Clause (unlike Vital Spirit) while potentially being able to spring right back up to fight, or use Rest to shrug off any status and damage defensive teams throw at it and wake up after just one turn. Unfortunately a new face in Mandibuzz pretty much put it in its place. Having STAB Sucker Punch makes Shiftry useful against offense as well, but Sucker Punch is a pretty big gamble to rely on, especially when it's a matter of life and death against Jynx (luckily Early Bird may possibly salvage the situation).

There was talk about Muk earlier, and I have to say that it's the Poison-type arguably least affected by the drop of Junx (in fact the decrease in usage of other Psychics benefitted it greatly). The big reason for this is its priority move, Shadow Sneak. Most other Poison-types have access to Sucker Punch which can lay a huge dent in Gardevoir, but Muk's Shadow Sneak isn't enough. Now, Sucker Punch users are now the ones who are unreliable in the face of a Jynx, who commonly Lovely Kiss to counter the move, but Muk's Shadow Sneak lands a solid hit on Jynx every time, no questions asked. Also, there is its trademark tounch, which can poison foes upon making contact with them. What this means is that Muk's Poison Jab has an absurdly high chance to poison, and its elemental punch can inflict poison as well as its respective status. I myself, having used Muk before, find myself struggling to build up enough Curses before the RU drops, much less now; but its Choice Band set utterly wrecks, I used Gunk Shot on it because it seriously hits like a truck (OHKOIng Eelektross), while relying on its good special bulk to come out on top.

 

[Othesemo]

Ok, so what, they know you're going to lead with Pineco, what can they do about it? It only loses vs Mold Breaker Sawk and Golem, and the misfortunate Scald burns from Seismitoad. Ok, so you're bringing someone to set up on Pineco? I can just spam Pain Split to deal damage and heal all the way back to my Sturdy, rinse and repeat until the opponent dies (lol). Also not everyone uses a Substitute set-upper. There's a reason it's not much higher, you know, this IS D-Rank.

Simple. They could lead with Sawk (currently at #2), in which case you're fucked. Or they could lead with their taunter (Skuntank's at 6, Missy's at 14), in which case you're fucked. Or they could just lead with Piloswine or Golem (#24 and 26, respectively). Or they could lead with any of the countless Sub+Set up sweepers and prepare to rape your team while you dilly about with hazards. But I admit that, those possibilities not withstanding, you could probably set up 2 or 3 layers of hazards.

And let's not forget Rapid Spin.

I mentioned previously, and will reiterate here- I've never seen Pineco do anything but give the opponent a huge early game advantage. D-rank is for pokemon that are "mediocre in the NU metagame." In my experience, spending one of your team slots on Pineco is actively detrimental to the user. The fact that it has a niche- an incredibly small, gimmicky niche at that- does not elevate it to the 50-50 mark of NU.

 

[Annoyer]

Audino shouldnt drop down its still a pretty good mon. It gets Regenerator which is a huge edge against Lickilicky allowing it to not be worn down as easily as well as making hazards less of a bitch to a stall team. It can also use Double-Edge to make up for its weak offensive options on the WishTect set allowing it to break subs easier and not being as big of set up bait as before. Their bulk is also pretty similar (103/86/86 compared to 110/95/95) so thats not a big deal. I've also seen recent stall teams use Audino over Lickilicky such as FLCL so it's not like its a bad mon so it should stay.

 

[ryan]

Simple. They could lead with Sawk (currently at #2), in which case you're fucked. Or they could lead with their taunter (Skuntank's at 6, Missy's at 14), in which case you're fucked. Or they could just lead with Piloswine or Golem (#24 and 26, respectively). Or they could lead with any of the countless Sub+Set up sweepers and prepare to rape your team while you dilly about with hazards. But I admit that, those possibilities not withstanding, you could probably set up 2 or 3 layers of hazards.

And let's not forget Rapid Spin.

I mentioned previously, and will reiterate here- I've never seen Pineco do anything but give the opponent a huge early game advantage. D-rank is for pokemon that are "mediocre in the NU metagame." In my experience, spending one of your team slots on Pineco is actively detrimental to the user. The fact that it has a niche- an incredibly small, gimmicky niche at that- does not elevate it to the 50-50 mark of NU.

There are not countless Sub setup sweepers in the tier. The common ones in the tier are Braviary and Braviary, and to an extent Combusken and Gorebyss. Rapid Spin is hardly a legitimate argument when you consider that it doesn't stop Scolipede, a Pokemon that can rarely set hazards multiple times throughout the match, from being effective. On top of that, it's not exactly difficult to fit a spinblocker on your team when all of the notable Ghost-types in the tier are really effective Pokemon.

Pineco's notable niche is access to all three hazards, which only Omanyte shares with it in the tier. If you run into something else trying to set up hazards against you, such as Scolipede, you can set up hazards alongside it and Rapid Spin if Toxic Spikes aren't necessary for you team. It's also not even like it's 5-6 from the beginning, because oftentimes Pineco can wear down the opponent enough to bring it to practically a 5-5 with Stealth Rock and a layer or more of Spikes on the opponent's side of the field.

The fact that four different people have thrown their support behind it means that obviously it's a benefit enough times over a detriment that it isn't complete garbage. Haven't tried out a level 100 set with Custap Berry, but it sounds ok too.

 

[Othesemo]

The fact that four different people have thrown their support behind it means that obviously it's a benefit enough times over a detriment that it isn't complete garbage. Haven't tried out a level 100 set with Custap Berry, but it sounds ok too.

I remain unconvinced, but in light of this, I'll shut up.

 

[Blast]

Simple. They could lead with Sawk (currently at #2), in which case you're fucked. Or they could lead with their taunter (Skuntank's at 6, Missy's at 14), in which case you're fucked. Or they could just lead with Piloswine or Golem (#24 and 26, respectively). Or they could lead with any of the countless Sub+Set up sweepers and prepare to rape your team while you dilly about with hazards. But I admit that, those possibilities not withstanding, you could probably set up 2 or 3 layers of hazards.

And let's not forget Rapid Spin.

I mentioned previously, and will reiterate here- I've never seen Pineco do anything but give the opponent a huge early game advantage. D-rank is for pokemon that are "mediocre in the NU metagame." In my experience, spending one of your team slots on Pineco is actively detrimental to the user. The fact that it has a niche- an incredibly small, gimmicky niche at that- does not elevate it to the 50-50 mark of NU.

There actually is a Pineco set that can get around Mold Breakers and multi-hit users, the lv. 100 Custap lead I mentioned earlier. Behold:

Pineco @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes / Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Endure / Bug Bite (just remember Bug Bite doesn't let you get around Sawk and friends)

Use Endure as they Rock Blast or w/e, which activates your Custap Berry, letting you at least set up Stealth Rock before you die. This is a trait that hardly any other hazard setters have, and imo that alone makes Pineco a top contender for D-Rank. Yeah, Taunters still give this set hell, but it's the same case with Dwebble, and he's D-Rank. Besides, Dwebble basically has the same offensive presence as Pineco (none), and again, Dwebble is D-Rank. Pineco might be setup bait, but if you ask me, trying to set up a sweep right at the beginning of a game (and letting your opponent set up all his hazards) is just asking for trouble. Any setup sweeper is far easier to check at the beginning, and you should really be focusing more on stopping Pineco from setting up its hazards.

As for "let's not forget Rapid Spin," you can say the same about Scolipede or Golem as suicide leads. What do you think spinblockers are for?

 

[Infernis]

The difference, I think, is that Scolipede can be useful later in the match because it has useful attacks and it's pretty fast even with a bulky set with no speed investment. As for Golem, it too can hit back. Pineco is a sitting duck. Dwebble, at least, is a somewhat faster duck.

Let me count the setup sweepers that can potentially shit on Pineco: (Those with Taunt, Sub, or both)

Bibarel (Curse)
Braviary (BU)
Carracosta (SS)
Charizard (SD/Bellyzaaaaard)
Combusken (SD)
Cradily (Curse)
Eelektross (Coil)
Fraxure (Dragon Dance) *Bonus points for mold breaker too.
Gardevoir (CM)
Golbat (NP)
Golurk (RP)
Gurdurr (BU)
Hypno (CM)
Jynx (NP)
Liepard (NP)
Kadabra (CM) Yes, CM Kadabra absolutely wrecks every set. Taunt to stop hazards, immune to pain split. I guess you could rapid spin at it?
Muk (Curse)
Mightyena (Howl! Really!)
Primeape (BU)
Samurott (SD)
Sawk (BU)
Zweilous, technically. (Swagger+Psych Up+Taunt+Outrage = best set?)

Also, Delibird can run a mean Fake Out + Ice Shard set to KO any low-level Pineco.

There are definitely others but I'm bored of listing these. NU has loads of setup sweepers, and Pineco is inherently weak to all of them.

 

[Annoyer]

BU Primeape and Sawk exist????
Delibird in general????
Listing Bibarel, Mightyena (altho dog wrecks), Hypno????
RP Golurk is common????
CM Kadabra exists????
Infamous Swagger Psych Up Taunt Outrage Zweilous.
(not really dissing on these mons or sets but using them in this example is stupid as fuck)

Some of those set up sweepers if they run Life Orb such as Costa or possibly Samurott or Jynx, will actually lose to Pineco if it keeps Pain Splitting. Also not many of those other than like Braviary or Gardy (which should not be even used much this meta) can actually set up on Pineco without taking a lot of damage from Pain Split which would put that mon in a range for revenge killing. Honestly set up sweeping isnt that common in general outside of say 10 mons at most in NU so thats not much of a problem and you can always switch out too. The benefits of Pineco of basically getting a guaranteed SR and Spikes is really good which neither Scoli nor Golem can do.

 

[ryan]

That's pretty much how I feel about it. How are almost any of these setup sweepers beating Pineco? Almost none of those examples are even relevant to NU anyways, but even if they were, most of these can't beat Pineco anyways for the reasons Annoyer stated. I can come up with a lot of tailored sets to beat certain Pokemon, but if they aren't good outside of that, why are you using them anyways?

 

[ebeast]

Let's talk about Pokemon that actually matter instead of burying posts about relevant mons for things like "*insert E-rank mon here* should move to D-rank". Not saying the discussion is bad, but it's been happening way too much in this thread.

I agree with Annoyer about Audino having definite perks over Lickilicky. Personally I think that Audino is better than Lickilicky on stall simply because of Regenerator. Regenerator means that Audino isn't worn down as easily as Lickilicky and that it can just straight pass its Wishes to teammates without needing to stay in to Protect its own Wish nearly as often, it at all, compared to Licky. In terms of Audino damaging other Pokemon, Audino's Double-Edge is actually stronger than Lickilicky's Body Slam. Even though it does miss out on that 30% chance to paralyze, paralysis is actually completely unwanted on stall anyways as it relies on TSpikes/Toxic for wearing things down. (I used Return Lickilicky before FLCL told me about Audino for this same reason) Lickilicky's advantage on stall compared to Audino would have to be Dragon Tail; which lets it hazard shuffle and hit Haunter. Even so, since stall is stall, it's already prepared with other phazing Pokemon and other teammates that cover what the blobs miss making the Lickilicky's Dragon Tail advantage not as huge as Audino's Regenerator advantage. Basically for stall Audino simply has more benefits than Lickilicky. On balance however, Lickilicky closes the gap as the extra bulk and access to Dragon Tail becomes more relevant.

TL;DR: Audino > Lickilicky on stall; Lickilicky > Audino on balance. Keep Audino in mid B-rank.

Now to answer SJ's question, Shiftry is B-rank because well, it's good. Leaf Storm / Sucker Punch / Dark Pulse / Nature Power Life Orb threatens a bunch of things in the metagame. Leaf Storm does good damage to everything and the Pokemon that can come into a Storm don't have an easy time with the rest of its moves. ex: Roselia is 2HKOed by Nature Power after SR, Skuntank is KOed by Nature Power after any hit, Garbodor goes down to Leaf Storm + Nature Power, Zard is KOed by Dark Pulse/Sucker Punch after SR or Dark Pulse + Sucker if it's switching in with no SR on the field. Now against the 4 drops, it's a pretty even standing. Jynx is threatened by Sucker Punch, and Scarf being the most common competitive set means that it can't just Kiss + Ice Beam. If it attacks it gets KOed and if it Kisses then Shiftry can just Early Bird wake up and get something as it switches out. LO is trickier, but Early Bird means it can still take it on. For example you can Dark Pulse on a predicted Lovely Kiss to burn a turn of sleep and then Early Bird Sucker Punch on the attack. (Lovely Kiss could even miss or you can get the fabled 0 turn Early Bird wake up too) Scolipede's SR weakness means that after a Leaf Storm it's at Sucker Punch range or straight OHKOed by Dark Pulse on the switch. Even without SR Dark Pulse + Sucker Punch take down Scolipede. Primeape can checkmate it with U-turn and its Dark-type resist allowing it to take a Sucker Punch, but it can't switch safely into Shiftry meaning at least Shiftry takes down something before Ape can come in. Of course Mandibuzz come penes, but that's just another reason as to why Shiftry isn't ranked higher than B-rank along with its frailty.