Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Punchshroom]

Out of curiosity, which EV spread are you referring to in that list of attacks Mandibuzz can survive? Because it seems to me that no one Mandibuzz set can survive all those hits. This is what maximum SpD Mandibuzz takes from +2 Gorebyss and Sun Charizard:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 367-432 (86.76 - 102.12%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO even before rocks.
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in sun: 291-343 (68.79 - 81.08%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This same Mandibuzz would take...

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 336-396 (79.43 - 93.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.92 - 83.68%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 301-355 (71.15 - 83.92%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Samurott Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 273-321 (64.53 - 75.88%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

and wouldn't have the speed to outrun any of them, which means it could die or be forced out even without rocks. It certainly can't take any of them after an ice beam, and it would be hard-pressed to survive after even a LO Sun Weather Ball from Victreebel (~40% damage). Even if it manages to survive and Whirlwind out its attacker, what's it going to do at 25% health? Even Scarfstrika can deal that. 252+ Attack Ninjask can do that. If it forces something fast into play, it's still dead meat or beating a hasty retreat.

Contrarily, a Mandibuzz that can reliably beat those physical attackers is going to get flattened by both Charizard and Gorebyss. I have no idea when any Mandibuzz could take any two of these attacks in succession: many of these attackers could get a 2HKO even if Mandibuzz manages to roost. Moreover, if it's Roosting it's not hitting back with Foul Play; it's just going to get worn down.

With a spread of 248 HP, 16 Def @ Bold (to take Golurk's attack), 56 Speed (to outrun Golurks), and 188 SDef, Mandibuzz is surviving a huge variety of attacks.

+2 252+ SpA Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-422 (84.63 - 99.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz in sun: 337-397 (79.66 - 93.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz: 305-362 (72.1 - 85.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz in sun: 169-199 (39.95 - 47.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz: 322-382 (76.12 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz: 216-255 (51.06 - 60.28%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Mandibuzz: 270-318 (63.82 - 75.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.92 - 83.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 268-316 (63.35 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not a KO after SR)
252Atk +2 Torrent Samurott (+Atk) Waterfall vs 248HP/16Def Mandibuzz (+Def): 72% - 85% (307 - 363 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Life Orb +2 Scolipede (Neutral) Megahorn vs 248HP/16Def Mandibuzz (+Def): 80% - 94% (340 - 400 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252+ Atk Flying Gem Drifblim Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 184-217 (43.49 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 220-261 (52 - 61.7%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42.08 - 49.88%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mandibuzz shows her impressive bulk by surviving nearly every attack you'd thought would OHKO/2HKO her. I misphrased myself again, but through the calcs that I myself posted you'd understand what I meant is that Mandibuzz can be EVed to take some of the strongest attacks in the tier while even surviving certain SE hits, then respond in kind, kind of like how support Musharna operates, except with much of Golbat's movepool.

Here's when I began to notice Musharna's and Mandibuzz's matchups against the tier's threats. Musharna can use Thunder Wave and can completely eliminate the threat's danger level; all Mandibuzz can do to stop a threat is Whirlwind or Foul Play which tends to not be enough against the special threats.

However, Musharna struggles a bit more with the greater physical threats, either due to the inability to paralyze them (Golurk, Zangoose, Swellow), or they threaten a OHKO (Samurott, Scolipede) and Psychic often fails to stop these threats in time. Mandibuzz on the other hand can use Foul Play to potent effect, taking a hit from these monsters and straight up owning them with Foul Play, or even Taunt/Whirlwind away Braviary's or Klang's boosts or Subs, something Musharna is unable to do. Even Sawk, who resists Foul Play, gets OHKOed if he is wielding Choice Band and used Close Combat at least twice prior (one to KO something, one more on Buzz).

While a good number of teams can find it tricky to work around Musharna's Thunder Wave (most status absorbers and Ground-types bar Golurk find it hard to beat Musharna itself), the same can be applied for Mandibuzz's Foul Play, as most pokemon who shrug off the attack like nobody's business find themselves quickly shut down by Taunt + Toxic.

The SR weakness still limits Mandibuzz, but Mandibuzz can still hold her own against the meta's top threats: if those calcs show anything, it's that anything weaker is usually not enough to beat Mandibuzz. While Musharna offers Heal Bell support (and cures itself of status, a huge boon), Mandibuzz is much more useful against stall provided she doesn't get statused. While most support Musharna are invested in Def primarily for Sawk, Mandibuzz can either lean towards Def for better matchups against physical sweepers that Musharna can't stand up to, or SDef to combat the special attackers that shrug off Foul Play. I myself may try a more physically inclined spread after looking at those calcs.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

The problem is that after Stealth Rock damage, a lot of those 2HKO become OHKOs and 3HKOs become 2HKOs. I feel that Mandibuzz plays a different role compared to Mush: it stallbreaks, and does so very effectively. However, I don't think it deserves an A-rank spot: Pokemon in A-rank have few negative traits that are outshone by their positive ones. Mandibuzz has a few big flaws: firstly, its SR weakness and secondly, its secondary dark-type, making it take neutral damage from Bug and Fighting attacks, which are far more common than Psychic type attacks are. It really only performs exceptionally well against stall (and sometimes bulky offense) and has to compete with Golbat who sports better resistances, speed, and physical bulk (and Golbat is in B). The two of them are very similar and the choice between them would depend on the team's needs, and I don't think Mandibuzz should be any higher than Golbat is. I think B-rank fits it perfectly: it has more conspicuous negative traits which are outshone by its stallbreakig ability, and requires some support for it to do its job we'll. Top B-rank should be where it goes.

 

[Punchshroom]

With all these discussions, it is pretty apparent that Mandibuzz is similiar to Musharna in terms of raw bulk and Golbat in terms of movepool and playstyle, an unholy mix of the two. I've already compared Buzz to Musharna, so now I'll assess how she stacks up against Golbat.

Golbat's typing is more useful when it comes to taking the tier's physical attackers, namely Bug and Fighting types, with greater efficiency. Golbat is immune to Toxic, making it much harder to wear down and cannot be stalled to death in that fashion. The bat is also naturally faster than Misdreavus, one of stall's components, thus allowing it to Taunt Missy and prevent it from burning, Pain Splitting or Heal Belling...any attempts to hinder you from stallbreaking are stopped, with just a minimal amount of Speed EVs.

Golbat however, does not have good mixed bulk, and its typing is not outright better than Mandibuzz's, due to Golbat fearing every attack Mandibuzz does and fears Psychic as opposed to being immune to it. The lack of Leftovers means that it is even harder for Golbat to do its job, as it would be forced to Roost more often, eventually ending up in a checkmate situation where Golbat risks the opponent not being Taunted or going for a KO predicting the Taunt, all because Golbat accumulated too much damage in the battle that it cannot heal off. Oh, and its STAB actually induces recoil! Yeah, as if Golbat hasn't got it up to here with the resiudal damage from SR or Leech Seed, now it has to be careful whenever it attacks just to not take too much damage over the course of battle. While it is useful for KOing targets that Golbat walls, Mandibuzz's Foul Play has more KO potential overall and has no repercussions upon using it (apart from potentially pitiful damage). You could opt for another move on Golbat, but it would be limited to moves such as U-turn and Super Fang: the former can steal you momentum but clashes with its SR vulnerability,; the latter tears up stall but cannot wear down any offensive threat (that doesn't lose health) down quickly enough.

I swear, STAB Foul Play is just such a godsend for defensive Dark-types, as it gives them a way to fight back (hard) if the situation calls for it. I'm sure Umbreon and Sableye would agree. Now I'm not saying Golbat shouldn't be used over Buzz, but Buzz, possessing both defensive and offensive utility, could settle for Low or Mid-A.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Probably the only notable resistances Mandibuzz has over Golbat is Psychic and Ghost. I don't think Buzz is superior to Golbat in any way. While the points you mentioned are valid, Psychic is not exactly a very notable resist over Golbat since the most common one (Jynx) beats it anyway. Mandibuzz can beat Mush and Golurk pretty well and does better against special attackers, but Golbat fares pretty well against the STAB moves of say, Scolipede, Primeape and Sawk, all of which Buzz doesn't like switching in on. Golbat's STAB Brave Bird can dent a few things such as Sawk and Scolipede, has consistent damage and recoil can be healed up with Roost (which isn't very hard considering its speed can outpace most walls and it is left with a decent Poison typing, so i don't think it's a very bad STAB move at all). And finally, Golbat is immune to Toxic, meaning that it can actually perform better against stall teams as it can switch into Toxic stalled without fearing Toxic of its own. Like I said, their roles are very similar and it's just a difference on the threats each handle better. I don't think I'd say Mandibuzz is better than Golbat (in fact, if I had to pick a better one, I'd pick Golbat)

However, I feel that they deserve their place in B-rank, and not any higher. Both have a niggling Stealth Rock weakness which really limits their ability to tank hits, they lose to some common threats like Jynx, and perform only exceptionally well against stall. they both suffer from a little bit of 4MSS and while their stallbreaking ability is sensational, I think these negative traits prevent them from rising to A.

And actually, due to the reasons I have mentioned above, I'll actually push for Mandibuzz into Mid B-rank. I'm not saying that it is bad, it's just that it faces lots of competition from Golbat, and it has inferior stats and typing which leaves it less capable of deal with some common threats that Golbat can take on. I wouldn't mind if it was place in Top-b, but I'll just leave food for thought and propose Mid-B


Next, I'd like to nominate Kadabra for Top-B rank. Kadabra is blazingly fast and has an amazing special attack stat. It does extremely well against offensive teams without Kangaskhan since it outspeeds many common offensive threats, such as Zard and Jynx. It is extremely frail, but Magic Guard means it can carry a Focus Sash and always be guaranteed to live an attack. It also has great coverage with its moves and has Encore to lock in walls and cause switches. This means that it fares really well against offensive teams who need to have at least two things that outspeed it (or something that can outspeed it AND live a hit), as well as switching in on the likes of Toxic, locking them in with Encore and getting a free hit. Most frail offensive threats who bring Kadabra down to its sash are also likely to get KOd in the process (since faster than Kadabra = frail) paving the way for another mon to sweep uninterrupted. Overall, Kadabra is such as amazing offensive threat that deserves Top-B

 

[Punchshroom]

Probably the only notable resistances Mandibuzz has over Golbat is Psychic and Ghost. I don't think Buzz is superior to Golbat in any way. While the points you mentioned are valid, Psychic is not exactly a very notable resist over Golbat since the most common one (Jynx) beats it anyway. Mandibuzz can beat Mush and Golurk pretty well and does better against special attackers, but Golbat fares pretty well against the STAB moves of say, Scolipede, Primeape and Sawk, all of which Buzz doesn't like switching in on. Golbat's STAB Brave Bird can dent a few things such as Sawk and Scolipede, has consistent damage and recoil can be healed up with Roost (which isn't very hard considering its speed can outpace most walls and it is left with a decent Poison typing, so i don't think it's a very bad STAB move at all). And finally, Golbat is immune to Toxic, meaning that it can actually perform better against stall teams as it can switch into Toxic stalled without fearing Toxic of its own. Like I said, their roles are very similar and it's just a difference on the threats each handle better. I don't think I'd say Mandibuzz is better than Golbat (in fact, if I had to pick a better one, I'd pick Golbat)

However, I feel that they deserve their place in B-rank, and not any higher. Both have a niggling Stealth Rock weakness which really limits their ability to tank hits, they lose to some common threats like Jynx, and perform only exceptionally well against stall. they both suffer from a little bit of 4MSS and while their stallbreaking ability is sensational, I think these negative traits prevent them from rising to A.

And actually, due to the reasons I have mentioned above, I'll actually push for Mandibuzz into Mid B-rank. I'm not saying that it is bad, it's just that it faces lots of competition from Golbat, and it has inferior stats and typing which leaves it less capable of deal with some common threats that Golbat can take on. I wouldn't mind if it was place in Top-b, but I'll just leave food for thought and propose Mid-B

I do agree with a number of your points, such as Buzz not liking to switch in on Pede, Ape and Sawk's attacks, but I'm going to have to address the bolded points.

I don't think Buzz is superior to Golbat in any way

Outright saying Mandibuzz cannot outperform Golbat in any role is a rather bold statement, sure she is not as fast, but her physical bulk is very comparable to Eviolite Golbat and her special bulk outclasses it, while her access to Leftovers and non recoil-inducing STAB means she can take more beatings than Golbat can, and thus can afford to Roost less and stallbreak/attack more. Heck, Leftovers alone makes Buzz a better SubRooster than Golbat will ever be. I'll elaborate more below.

perform only exceptionally well against stall

Here is where I believe you've missed one of Mandibuzz's selling points over Golbat. Golbat can only selectively beat certain pokemon (the aforementioned Bugs and Fightings) reliably one-on-one against offense, but it doesn't deal with other offensive threats quickly enough, as there is usually no room to Brave Bird in those scenarios, while U-turn and Super Fang aren't doing much better. Mandibuzz however has the luxury to launch a Foul Play here and there, dealing a good chunk of damage, often a 2-3HKO, to most pokes on offensive teams, including Primeape and Sawk despite their resists, and Jynx despite her poor Attack, making it harder to switch in on Mandibuzz, augmented by the fact that almost nothing that can hit Buzz super effectively resists Foul Play (only notable exceptions are Rock/Steels), though bulky Electric and Ice types can still switch in (but hey, Golbat's not beating any of them either!). Buzz also can afford to attack from time to time due to Leftovers and good mixed bulk that allow her to survive better than Golbat against offense.

inferior stats and typing

Yet another bold claim, Mandibuzz's stats or typing are not inferior, just different. As proof, Mandibuzz manhandles the very pokemon you tried to nominate (Kadabra) above Mandibuzz, whereas Golbat gets pwned no questions asked. Her HP is massive when compared to Golbat (or other pokemon in NU really), and that is important for a wall since it provides all around greater bulk by making up for the uninvested defense stat or grants more freedom in terms of tweaking for optimal mixed bulk.

Even if Mandibuzz doesn't favor switching into many of the unresisted offensive threats' attacks directly (bar Golurk or non-Thunder Wave Musharna of course, and she can avoid a 2HKO from Kangaskhan with my suggested spread), however when she does get in safely it becomes almost a different matter entirely: before she was struggling to survive, now you're struggling to bring her down without either taking a good chunk of damage or getting counterstalled, which only a few can claim to do (Regice, Rotoms, Relicanth, Lairon...). Mandibuzz's flexibility to perform against both defensive and offensive teams gives her an edge over Golbat, which I feel is enough for Low or Mid-A, seeing as other A Ranks have their blatant issues but can still perform well enough in their roles.

 

[Infernis]

I'm just gonna put it out there that Golbat learns more than just Brave Bird for STAB. Sludge Bomb is decently powerful as well. Also, I've seen more than one Golbat with Nasty Plot and Air Slash. You laugh, but it seriously took me by surprise! A +2 Air Slash is 20% stronger than Brave Bird, and without recoil. Sure, it's not breaking many walls even at +6, but it's out there and it massacres a lot of offensive Pokemon.

Golbat might resist fighting and bug attacks 4x, but it also resists grass 4x! Leafeon and Sawsbuck beware, for they cannot break the bat. Poison attackers such as Muk or Seismitoad also find themselves utterly walled, particularly Seismitoad since it has no ice beam. Also, rock/steel types wall Mandibuzz right back, particularly steel types who are immune to Toxic and resist Foul Play. Golbat can Super Fang half their health away. Lairon may be a mighty wall that Mandibuzz can never beat, but Golbat can take out 3/4ths of its HP from max before falling, or you can deal 50% and switch out after comfortably surviving a Head Smash. Mandibuzz cannot push through Metang. Golbat takes 3/4ths of its health and flies away practically unscathed. As for bulky electric/ice types, let's take into account a duel between Golbat and Piloswine. If Piloswine switches in to a Toxic, Golbat can Super Fang on the next turn while only taking 42-52% from a three-hit Icicle Spear. (Or super fang -> toxic, but I like using toxic on predicted switches.) Now, on the next turn it can go two ways. Piloswine could use Icicle Spear and miss out on a KO but keep its super effective bonus, or it tries for the possible 2HKO with Icicle Spear and Golbat roosts it off. Piloswine could get a 2HKO with icicle spear followed by earthquake, but Golbat's handy flying type lets it play mindgames there. Golbat has a decent chance of outlasting and beating Piloswine. I believe the standard 164+ Def Golbat would actually survive a middling icicle spear and ice shard after stealth rock, or roost away damage from a second icicle spear. Golbat will not survive Specs Ampharos without roosting first (which it can totally do), but it walls the hell out of defensive or tank Ampharos by spamming Roost. You just need toxic support from spikes or a teammate. I wouldn't say Golbat can't take on bulky ice/electric types in a pinch. Just don't switch into them unless you're feeling really lucky with that icicle spear. ;)

As for Mandibuzz' superior special bulk, let me just leave this here.

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in sun: 226-267 (63.84 - 75.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in sun: 291-343 (68.79 - 81.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[soulgazer]

As for Mandibuzz' superior special bulk, let me just leave this here.

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in sun: 226-267 (63.84 - 75.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in sun: 291-343 (68.79 - 81.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It might be just a little nitpick, but wouldn't Mandibuzz's Leftovers recovery make it equal at the end of the turn?

 

[Punchshroom]

For the Charizard calc, when you consider Leftovers, Mandibuzz has the upper hand again, no? I know the calc is to illustrate their difference in bulk, but there is little to no reason Golbat should be attempting to wall special attackers when it damn near loses to all of them with no health to spare (again, no Lefties), while Buzz can still stonewall stuff like Exeggutor, Gardevoir, Musharna, Kadabra and Haunter (even with Thunderbolt!).
Sludge Bomb needs the Nasty Plot boost to do notable damage, otherwise it would clash with Toxic and even then, it deprives you of the Flying STAB needed to KO Scolipede before its Swords Dance boosted attacks overwhelm you. +2 Air Slash is stronger than Brave Bird, but in the course of those two turns Brave Bird would do more anyway (mind the recoil!).
Mandibuzz fares just as well, if not better than Golbat against Grasses, because at least Buzz can slightly mitigate Leech Seed with that item Buzz has that Bat does not.
I've admitted that Super Fang shreds stall and bulky pokes in general pretty hard, at the cost of never actually KOing the target (which becomes less useful vs offense).
Ice-weak Flying-types play a very dangerous gamble against Piloswine, as a high damage roll Icicle Spear + Ice Shard can KO you before you can heal. Support Ampharos also carry Discharge and even Heal Bell, meaning Golbat won't be beating it. As I've said, anything Mandibuzz fears (bar Toxic) Golbat fears too, but not vice versa.

 

[Raseri]

Changes:

Musharna up to Mid S from Low S
Sawk up to Low S from Top A
Mandibuzz added to Low A
Zebstrika down from B to C
Volbeat down from B to C
Simisage down from B to C
Regigigas up from E to D

lots of stuff :)

I'll be posting the refined version of B soon for people to look at, im just lazy

 

[Blast]

Torkoal for C-Rank

In short, Torkoal isn't very good in today's NU. Smashkoal I've found to be pretty bad in the current meta and fails to keep up with the rise of all these faster threats. It really never sweeps, ever. Its best set nowadays is probably the physically defensive one, and that's not too great, either. Fire is in general an awful defensive typing, and its low Special Defense isn't doing it any favors, either. It can't even wall the Ice-types of the meta (one of its few actual resists); LO Jynx OHKOes with Psychic after SR, and Piloswine can take it down with a few Earthquakes. Speaking of EQ, its weaknesses to Ground and Rock seriously hinder its ability to wall physical attackers. It has a decent niche in the ability to counter Scolipede and potentially get off a Rapid Spin, but that's about it; outside of this, it's outclassed as a spinner by Wartortle who has Foresight.

 

[Punchshroom]

Changes:

Musharna up to Mid S from Low S
Sawk up to Low S from Top A
Mandibuzz added to Low A
Zebstrika down from B to C
Volbeat down from B to C
Simisage down from B to C
Regigigas up from E to D

lots of stuff :)

I'll be posting the refined version of B soon for people to look at, im just lazy

Huh. Looks like the only time Mushy won't be solid S-Rank is if the weather is not on its side. Well deserved you indestructible mass of dreams.

Sawk is much more imposing than Primeape in general, mainly due to its ability but the power is also a contributor.

Yay Mandibuzz~. Fighting you can be a bitch though.

Agreed.

Also agreed.

Poor Sage. Between moves like Superpower, Rock Slide, Acrobatics and Endeavor, it tends to be harder to work around than Serperior while still pulling off the Overgrow LO Drain combo with greater power. Mandibuzz is a pretty big f**k u to offensive Grasses though.
Though judging from FLCL's post about nominating Sage to C, I'm still pretty sure he meant Sear at the time, what with the comparison to Zard.

Oi, I thought we're not encouraging Gigas use in any way.

 

[Raseri]

definitely moved simisear down and put simisage in the post again :P sage should probably move down too but thats a discussion for later ;)

 

[Lasagne]

Now I can't destroy with Gigas in conquest any more .cry

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Now I might actually beat Tagliatelle

I want my conquest losses due to Gigas overturned pls

Edit: WHAT. No Shuckleking, don't do this :(
Edit2: yeah shut up lasagne I'll beat you some day

 

[Raseri]

Torkoal for C-Rank

In short, Torkoal isn't very good in today's NU. Smashkoal I've found to be pretty bad in the current meta and fails to keep up with the rise of all these faster threats. It really never sweeps, ever. Its best set nowadays is probably the physically defensive one, and that's not too great, either. Fire is in general an awful defensive typing, and its low Special Defense isn't doing it any favors, either. It can't even wall the Ice-types of the meta (one of its few actual resists); LO Jynx OHKOes with Psychic after SR, and Piloswine can take it down with a few Earthquakes. Speaking of EQ, its weaknesses to Ground and Rock seriously hinder its ability to wall physical attackers. It has a decent niche in the ability to counter Scolipede and potentially get off a Rapid Spin, but that's about it; outside of this, it's outclassed as a spinner by Wartortle who has Foresight.

I don't really agree with this because SMASHKOAL still beats every ghost except Frillish. Torkoal is definitely not a wall, and needs to get 2 boosts to sweep any team, but it is still the best spinner on offensive teams that really need a spinner, and its physical bulk isn't bad at all. Piloswine taking it down with a few earthquakes really isn't a flaw, if anything, we should be talking about how it takes a few earthquakes for something with a STAB SE move to beat Torkoal. Torkoal is a cool b rank threat because it can set up really easily on the physical side and spin. And its also better than armaldo :)

 

[Infernis]

Another fun thing that I used to do was run Yawn on Torkoal for use against Golem/Piloswine and company. Yawn at them, and since they'll only 2HKO , they either switch out while you Yawn the next one (racking up hazard damage) or they stay in for the KO and take out your Torkoal... while leaving them with a sleepy 'mon and you with a free switch in for your favorite setup sweeper. Watch out for Lum Berry and pre-statused 'mons.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Now I can't destroy with Gigas in conquest any more .cry

Any changes are not going to be implemented, so you are fine to use it:)

 

[Lasagne]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I hope scorpdestroyer sees this :3

 

[Lolk]

Nominating Bronzor for D-rank because I want a bigger D-rank. It has a great defensive typing and Levitate allows it to be a great situational counter to many top tier threats (basically the same as Metang but a few more Ground-types). While Metang obviously outclasses it, Levitate and the cool design give it a big enough niche as a pokemon that toxic stalls stuff to death.

 

[Lasagne]

Bronzor can also run a fairly effective restalk cm monoattacker, with Flash Cannon as the attacking move. I agree with what Lolkomori said, Bronzor has a good defensive typing, and can stall out many Pokemon with toxic, such as Alomomola and Seismitoad, as they cannot do much to the flying shield. It is very similar to Metang, but it can also beat ground types thanks to Levitate. Because of this, it does decently well against Golurk, which is always a great trait to have. Bronzor is a brilliant Jynx counter, once again similar to Metang.

Its just overall a pretty cool mon, and definitely doesn't deserve to stay in E Rank. D Rank for me (though honestly, I could feasibly see it being moved to Low C).

 

[wiitle]

Agreeing with D Rank for Bronzor as it has its own niche over Metang.

Its typing leaves it weak only to fire, which isn't even a super common attacking move in today's meta outside of Charizard. Its ability to stall defensive mons to death with Rest and Toxic can be invaluable for a team struggling to break through bulkier mons. Speaking of Rest, it guarantees you won't be worn down by burn and Bronzor's typing already leaves it immune to Toxic. Calm Mind boosts its special defense to some pretty impressive levels and I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to grab multiple boosts. It can actually switch in on a lot of the meta and start toxic stalling and cm boosting.

Very solid mon that deserves at least D Rank

 

[Blast]

Imo, the mon Bronzor faces competition with isn't Metang, it's Gothorita. Gothorita can Toxic stall just like Bronzor, but also has Shadow Tag to prevent switching. I will admit Bronzor has a far better defensive typing than Goth, but in the end I think the latter has an easier time stalling because of Shadow Tag. When facing Bronzor, all you have to do is switch out into a heavy hitter like Charizard or Sawk to take the Toxic and at worst 2HKO it. That's not the case with Gothorita, as they are forced to stay in and get Toxic stalled to death. Like I said, though, Bronzor's typing does help it a bit, but I'm kind of on the edge of whether that's enough to justify his use.

 

[watashi]

the big thing about bronzor is levitate which allows it to wall a shitload of pokemon in conjunction with its typing. golem, sawsbuck, tauros, kangaskhan, and piloswine are effortlessly beaten while metang would usually have troubles with them. unlike gothorita, it also fares decently against jynx, which is a huge advantage in this metagame. i have used bronzor to success before on full stall teams (it shouldn't really be used anywhere else) and i think it deserves d rank

 

[Dell]

I don't really agree with this because SMASHKOAL still beats every ghost except Frillish. Torkoal is definitely not a wall, and needs to get 2 boosts to sweep any team, but it is still the best spinner on offensive teams that really need a spinner, and its physical bulk isn't bad at all. Piloswine taking it down with a few earthquakes really isn't a flaw, if anything, we should be talking about how it takes a few earthquakes for something with a STAB SE move to beat Torkoal. Torkoal is a cool b rank threat because it can set up really easily on the physical side and spin. And its also better than armaldo :)

Yeah, I'm definitely seconding here that I don't think Torkoal should move down to C-rank either for the reasons quoted. Even without factoring SMASHKOAL alone, Torkoal's defensive set is actually a pretty underrated pivot, capable of performing a lot of unique roles and has the ability to check a good variety of physical attackers such as Scolipede, while against other Pokemon like Jynx in various occasions. Torkoal is able to function as a Stealth Rock user who's also capable of Rapid Spin in a combination that works better than Armaldo, because of its ability to annoy a lot of common switch-ins and checks with the effects of Lava Plume or Yawn. The presence of Yawn can prevent Pokemon like Carracosta from setting up on it, has a tendency of potentially inducing sleep status or force a lot of switches out, and gives it a surefire way to have a reason to force Ghost-types out (which in turn can either gain it a free Rapid Spin on Ghost-types fearing the next turn sleep or giving a free opportunity to setup Rocks if that isn't necessary). Putting something to sleep in this metagame is more than enough of a bonus, and the way that players would react to Yawn can potentially gain momentum for Torkoal's team in terms of getting something in for free if you're confident enough to take advantage of it. It can also run HP Grass to give Seismitoad and Carracosta a harder time if that's the move of preference.

Overall, I would like to see Torkoal fall under either Mid B-rank or Top B-rank between both of its viable sets. Like Raseri said, SMASHKOAL can better fit in more offensive teams while defensive Torkoal would better place into balance to stall-related teams. The former has the ability to break through a lot of defensive Pokemon, has setup opportunities of a fair amount of physical attackers, and can definitely perform sweeps when unprepared for. While it is unable to outpace base 95+ Pokemon, it is still able to perform its role unreliably as none of them appreciates switching in into a Fire Blast, allowing it to perform Rapid Spins even with the presence of Haunter on a team.

 

[Diatom]

Rotom-F for low or mid A-rank

While this thing has the dreaded ice typing without Ice Beam, it has quite a few perks that I think make it A-rank. For one, this thing has the coveted BoltBeam coverage, and although Blizzard can be inaccurate, the fact is that you are still hitting with it the majority of the time on stuff like Altaria and Golurk. Volt Switch also allows for it to get away from mons that it can't really touch, such as SpD Musharna, and Thunderbolt is an option for a hard-hitting electric STAB. This thing also gets Trick to screw over walls if you run a choice item, as well as Pain Split for a form of recovery, which is much appreciated with its SR weakness. When equipped with a scarf, this thing also beats the majority of S-rank, easily beating Samurott, Carracosta, and physically defensive Musharna, as well as Scolipede and Sawk if Blizzard doesn't miss, as well as Jynx with a little prior damage. Of course Rotom-F does have its flaws that prevent it from being top A such as an SR weakness and the inability to beat Kangaskhan and having to rely on Blizzard for STAB, but I think this thing merits A-rank. Any thoughts?