BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread

Audiosurfer

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I'm gonna edit this post later when I have more time to talk about some of my noms/responses, but can we please stop with the one-liners? Unless it's truly an impotant comment (usually aren't) they can usually just be things either taken care of in #doubles or via pm, and they rarely contain much substance or anything that contributes to discussion. If you have a point to make, it generally benefits everyone in the discussion for you to explain your thoughts in more than just one-liners and leads to better, more productive and more informative discussion, and if you don't have a point to make, chances are it's not something that should be posted here. Thanks :)
 

The Leprechaun

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hmmm, good point, i would say though that fire coverage is very very nice and there aren't that many good fire STAB users who can fit on a fast team. Both of these forms also have a resist to electric as well, making them able to take thunders well rather than manage them. Rotom mow actually becomes a better check to rain and rotom heat is a far better check to sun and hail.
Rotom wash does however outclass them in checking multiple weathers, i mean, heat's got no chance against rain and mow has no chance against sun or hail which is why they're suggested for the tiers they are.

Edit: sorry 'bout the one-liners, Audiosurfer, I'll stop.
 
Now I'm not nominating Reuni for B because I agree with those flaws, but saying Cress outclasses Reuni just because it has Ice Beam means you're completely ignoring Reuni's higher Special Attack, Magic Guard + LO for even more power, and Focus Blast so T-Tar doesn't shit on you (and it's slower than Cress).
What "solid extent" means is that I'm not saying it completely outclasses it, I was aiming at the point that Cresselia's better movepool & super-effective coverage allows it to eclipse Reuniclus somewhat. It also has better bulk, but that one was pretty obvious.

Anyhow, I was in a rush, so I couldn't cover much, but overall, Reuniclus is pretty one-sided, tends to rely on Focus Blast hitting a lot, and its offensive Trick Room role is going to be outclassed by either Chandelure or Cresselia (raw power vs super-effective coverage). I might also add in that something like 90% of Tyranitar are Chople Berry/Focus Sash, so Focus Blast isn't going to OHKO, even if it hits TTar, who can deal 87%+ with Crunch (vs 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus). Additionally, a big issue with Reuniclus is that unlike the two previously mentioned setters, it has no other viable roles. In other words, the opponent is going to see you coming from miles away, and since Reuniclus has more or less every flaw a Trick Room setter typically has, its going to be pretty difficult to get Trick Room up with it. Magic Coat possibly distinguishes it apart from the other setters, but one move to stand out is not going to be enough for A Rank, especially when it is more or less eclipsed, and has all the flaws that you don't want Trick Room setters to have. I could almost go as far as to say that Reuniclus is B because it is too generic, it has all the weaknesses of a Trick Room setter, yet its strengths are outclassed, and it can't stand out enough from the crowd (in all honesty, I'm starting to convince myself it deserves C, x_x).
 

Laga

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moved Musharna up to B rank because of discussion on irc - has it's own niche in Gravity + Telepathy and Trick Room + Imprison and is a bulky, mushy, ADORABLE fetus.

Arctic edit: fixed the post for you
 
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For the sake of reviving this thread, and the fact it needs to get some things ranked, I have compiled a list of currently unranked things (some of these have been discussed a bit but are at the moment unranked):

Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Mow
Raikou
Liepard
Magmar
Gothitelle
Celebi
Dugtrio
Nidoqueen
Azumarill
Blastoise
Crobat
Uxie
Exeggutor
Eelektross
Machamp
Meloetta
Zoroark
Accelgor
Archeops
Bouffalant
Hitmonchan
Lilligant
Medicham
Rhydon
Sceptile
Tangrowth
Parasect
Misdreavus
Murkrow
Regigigas
Seismitoad
Shedinja
Shiftry
Tangela
Throh
Togetic
Mew
Purugly
Arcanine
Krookodile
Durant
Omastar
Alomomola
Tauros
Deoxys-speed
Lickilicky

Feraligatr
Moltres


I probably missed a billion things, but half of them are pretty low rank anyway, and less important.
 
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The Leprechaun

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Yeah i'll add a few to that list.

Mew (can do almost anything)
Purugly (Defiant, fake out, nice speed)
Arcanine (Intimidate, espeed, heat wave, snarl, etc)
Krookodile (Intimidate, STAB EQ, good typing against cress)
Durant (Rock slide, bug STAB for Cress)
Omastar (Swift swim + Shell Smash)
Alomomola (Wide Guard, bulk, icy wind, heal pulse, etc)
Tauros (Good speed, intimidate, slidequake)

 
Okay, intrigued to know what niche you think some of these could have, Nollan...

Also:
Deoxys-speed
Lickilicky
Gigalith
Jynx
(may as well have all the dry skin users)
Smeargle (may as well have all the spore users too)
Feraligatr
Moltres


Reading back through the old doubles thread, people seemed to really rate Mantine at one point, too...
 
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yeah the vast majority of those mons are d tier. i will attest to lilligant's greatness though; it can ohko ttar with gemmed leaf storm (in sand), has sleep powder, and is the only chlorophyll user with helping hand and actual offensive presence. i cry every time i see someone on gbu/doubs ladder using giga drain lilligant :(
 

Pocket

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note that we're only ranking Viable Pokemon - we aren't ranking mons that are simply shit.

PS: we aren't doing an E-rank :[ @Celever
 
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Celever

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In that case move Electivire and Blissey to e rank.

Electivire simply cannot hit hard and while it does have the unique combination of Discharge and Earthquake it doesn't have the stats to make use of them.
Blissey cannot function in a metagame full of physical spread attacks, meaning that follow me or rage powder won't help, and absolutely jam-packed full of fighting types. Chansey at least has some pretty good physical bulk with Eviolite, Blissey just doesn't...
 
Actually, Leavanny isn't THAT bad (though it will be if you run Struggle Bug...)

Leavanny's set would be actually consisting of Leaf Blade and X-Scissor for STAB (and hitting the Lati-twins, Terrakion and opposing weather-starters hard), and Entrainment and Protect will be ran for certain in the last two. Leavanny also has Helping Hand and Dual Screens access.

Still E-rank though, despite Entrainment Chlorophyll being a hilarious gimmick under the sun. I had a lot of fun with it and Leav' isn't that bad if you just want to have a lot of fun with Entrainment jokes. It however, fails at dealing with the omnipresent Trick Room as well as numerous other things so be sure to have that covered

Let Leav' stay in E-rank, but this gimmick - which Lilligant can perform too - needs a mention.

Pocket EDIT: we aren't doing E rank - if a Pokemon doesn't qualify for D, then it shouldn't be mentioned here
 
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Yeah i'll add a few to that list.

Mew (can do almost anything)
Purugly (Defiant, fake out, nice speed)
Arcanine (Intimidate, espeed, heat wave, snarl, etc)
Krookodile (Intimidate, STAB EQ, good typing against cress)
Durant (Rock slide, bug STAB for Cress)
Omastar (Swift swim + Shell Smash)
Alomomola (Wide Guard, bulk, icy wind, heal pulse, etc)
Tauros (Good speed, intimidate, slidequake)
Okay, intrigued to know what niche you think some of these could have, Nollan...

Also:
Deoxys-speed
Lickilicky
Gigalith
Jynx
(may as well have all the dry skin users)
Smeargle (may as well have all the spore users too)
Feraligatr
Moltres


Reading back through the old doubles thread, people seemed to really rate Mantine at one point, too...
I added most of these, though I dropped a few such as Smeargle, which without Dark Void is completely useless. I would make a list on niches, but that would take forever, I'd just advise you to take a look, some of these pokemon on the list are actually really good but often underlooked. Nidoqueen for example can be a terror on HailRoom or Hail teams in general, boasting good bulk and a extremely powerful Sheer Force Blizzard. Exeggutor can be a fearsome Chlorophyll abuser, and is imo the best, as a Life Orb Leaf Storm can OHKO Politoed and 252/0 Tyranitar in the sand. Many people overlook Exeggutor's ability to work outside of Sun with Harvest, Fighting and Ground resistances, and the ability to rip Rain teams apart with some SpD investment make it a true beast.

Exeggutor should imo be B Rank, and Nidoqueen should be C Rank (might as well nominate them since I described their respective skills).

yeah the vast majority of those mons are d tier. i will attest to lilligant's greatness though; it can ohko ttar with gemmed leaf storm (in sand), has sleep powder, and is the only chlorophyll user with helping hand and actual offensive presence. i cry every time i see someone on gbu/doubs ladder using giga drain lilligant :(
*Cough* Exeggutor. In reality, I think a lot of these are higher than D Rank, people just underlook them. Liepard, Exeggutor, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Mow, Raikou, Nidoqueen, Tangrowth, and others are all deserving of C or higher imo.
 

nyttyn

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Ledian has an absolutely awful typing that leave it is quad weak to one spread move, weak to three of them, neutral to one, and only immune to one that a lot of pokemon are already immune to, gives it only has one resist that's even remotely useful, makes it weak to a lot of common attacking types besides, has zero offensive presence at all, 85 speed, very bad bulk bulk (55/55/110 is incredibly awful for a supporting pokemon), and the only good thing you can say about his movepool is that he has Encore and Tailwind. But that's a slow Encore, so it requires prediction to even be worth anything unlike the Prankster Encore users. Ledian lacks any redeemable qualities that would make it D rank, much less C rank.


edit for tone
 
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Additionally note that the battle showcased above is a Random Battle, which means sets are designed for Singles, and pokemon like Ledian additionally have very high levels relative to stronger pokemon. As such, that is hardly a place to decide whether something is good in Doubles or not. :x
 

The Leprechaun

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Mew (can do almost anything)
Purugly (Defiant, fake out, nice speed)
Arcanine (Intimidate, espeed, heat wave, snarl, etc)
Durant (Rock slide, bug STAB for Cress)

Ok so i thought it'd be a good idea to actually nominate ranks for these pokes as i suggested them and shouldn't really put all the work on actually ranking them on laga.
Mew for A. Mew has so many great moves to use in doubles it's kinda ridiculous it isn't already here. It's one of the more bulky tailwind setters, one of the fastest fake out/taunt users, has probably the largest support movepool in the game and one of the highest attacking stats for any support pokemon in the tier. Its ability, synchronise, is surprisingly effective as well, allowing it to cripple thundurus to an extent. A no brainer really.

Purugly for C.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Fake Out vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 99-117 (36.53 - 43.17%)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 250-294 (92.25 - 108.48%)

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Fake Out vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 103-122 (29.94 - 35.46%)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 261-308 (75.87 - 89.53%)

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 83-99 (24.85 - 29.64%)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 211-250 (63.17 - 74.85%)


Also, if it gets intimidated, here are a few notable things it ouspeeds with its excellent 112 base speed.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 286-339 (95.01 - 112.62%)

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 250-294 (69.83 - 82.12%)

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus: 317-374 (106.02 - 125.08%)


I also wanna point out how badly Purugly fucks icy wind Cress.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 203-239 (45.72 - 53.82%)


To me, all this looks like it should be even above a C rank but Purugly's major downfall comes at its horrible coverage outside of normal and ghost as well as its atrocious 71/64/59 defences. Perfect for C rank imo.

Arcanine for B/A. Pretty straightforward this one. Arcanine boasts good defences of 90/80/80 but this really shines with the combination on intimidate and snarl, which effectively raises its defences to really high levels. It also has above average attacking stats and fantastic movepool with moves like extreme speed, heat wave wild charge and close comabat all of which can be very useful in checking weathers other than sun. The fact that it also gets morning sun makes it a fantastic choice for any sun team.

Durant for C/B. Give this any kind of opportunity to set up and it WILL dent the opposing team. Its base 109 speed lets it outspeed a large portion of the metagame making it a potent threat.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 429-507 (96.62 - 114.18%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 352-417 (98.32 - 116.48%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 368-434 (115.36 - 136.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 246-290 (71.51 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 292-344 (76.04 - 89.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 421-497 (140.8 - 166.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 304-359 (70.37 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 151-178 (46.74 - 55.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 320-376 (107.02 - 125.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Some of those 2HKOs are on pokes that need max investment in hp and defence to live a hit and any calc with rock slide is hitting both opposing pokes. Powerful. Much like purugly though it has horrible defences and therefore needs a lot of team support to be able to do anything seeing as hone claws is so vital.
 
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Well, this thread died off p. fast. As for The Leprechaun's post:

Mew for A, I agree. It can do almost anything, not much to add there.

Purugly for D, imo. Given that Hitmontop runs 252 HP, Purugly will not be able to beat it, and will easily die to a CC, whether or not it has Fighting Gem. If you want Defiant, there are better options anyway.

Arcanine for B. It may also be C, though I am headed towards B atm. Heatran, for one, is a better Fire type under Sun conditions, as is Volcarona. The only way you could really distinguish it is by going physically offensive, and even then, it faces competition from Victini, who has an insanely powerful V-create. Still, Intimidate, Snarl, and ExtremeSpeed give it enough elbow room to stand out, but it is certainly not A Rank.

Durant for C. Yeah, it is good, but it is frail specially, and Hustle will make its attacks fairly unreliable. Some Gravity support would be needed to patch this up. In my eyes, this fits the C rank description of "Reserved for pokemon that can work within the Doubles metagame, however, they have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance".

Now, to get things moving (hopefully), I'm gonna recommend ranks for some others things on my list.

Rotom-Heat for B Rank. It has a great typing, providing it resistances to Electric, Fire, Ice, Grass, Bug, Flying, and Levitate, which offsets what would be a horrific Ground weakness. In general, Rotom-H can switch in safety to all sort of special attackers in the tier, such as Thundurus, Zapdos, Thundurus-T, Volcarona, Heatran, most Cresselia, Amoonguss, and more. With some Sunny Day support, it can even come in on a lot of Water types attackers, especially Ludicolo. It does have a few flaws however. The fact it needs Overheat to distuinguish itself over other Rotom formes means that it will be pretty predictable, as it will always be a bulky attacker, usual with Fire Gem Overheat. It also despises Rain, so Sunny Day support, or a way around rain, will be needed to use it to its full potential. From my view, this fits B Rank nicely.

Rotom-Mow for C Rank. It makes for a nice Rain check if Rotom-Wash doesn't synergized well with your team. It can also handle Ground-types more reliably than Rotom-Wash, especially Gastrodon. Of course, in most cases it will be eclipsed by Rotom-Wash, leaving it in C Rank.

Raikou for B Rank. It is really, really good at what it does. If you can eliminate physical attackers from the field, it will leave the opponent defeated, as Snarl will prevent him from hurting your side of the field, while you can easily hurt his. It also can take out Tornadus, Landorus-T/I, Garchomp, and many others (if you run Shuca, which you should). It really has very little competition in this matter outside of Darkrai and Zoroark, who are both priority weak, making Raikou the ideal choice.

Liepard for B Rank. As the only pokemon with both Fake Out and Prankster Encore, Liepard makes for a terrifying foe to face. It can play all sorts of mind games on you, shut down Trick Room with Taunt, ease prediction with Encore, Fake Out or Substitute, and even use Swagger alongside Foul Play for fearsome offensive presence. It does, however, have some flaws, most notably Fighting weakness and frail defenses. However, its vast support movepool, ability to sit in front of Icy Wind Cresselia with little fear, and general evilness consolidate its deserved placement in B Rank.

Exeggutor should imo be B Rank, and Nidoqueen should be C Rank (C&P this from my post [#239]; refer to that post for explanations as to why)
 
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The Leprechaun

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Purugly for D, imo. Given that Hitmontop runs 252 HP, Purugly will not be able to beat it, and will easily die to a CC, whether or not it has Fighting Gem. If you want Defiant, there are better options anyway.
Well i was going off the doubles analysis Laga posted which runs 124 hp evs. Even with 252 hp evs purugly wins with fake+return. I can definitely understand it being D rank but i still think it has enough of a niche to be C, mainly because of its excellent speed for doubles.

Arcanine for B. It may also be C, though I am headed towards B atm. Heatran, for one, is a better Fire type under Sun conditions, as is Volcarona. The only way you could really distinguish it is by going physically offensive, and even then, it faces competition from Victini, who has an insanely powerful V-create. Still, Intimidate, Snarl, and ExtremeSpeed give it enough elbow room to stand out, but it is certainly not A Rank.
My point with this was that it can easily eliminate all other weather setters with close combat, wild charge and flare blitz which is a niche not many pokes can fill. At this point i'm arguing for no reason so I might as well leave it.

I agree with all your proposed rankings apart from Rotom-Heat which i believe should be C rank. I used it a fair amount on a sun team and found its reliance on overheat incredibly annoying. It's alright in singles but with the lack switching in this tier it can end up in a useless poke. the weakness to surf as well as rock slide sucked dick as well.


@Laga where you at dude?
 

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