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BW2 In-Game Tier List Discussion [Updated 7/24]

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Stellar, Jul 2, 2012.

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  1. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Mienfoo - comes late, way too late. He is however quite useful. And you're stuck with a rather slow, averagely strong pokemon with zero bulk for at least 15 levels. He learns a lot of very strong fighting moves, has Bounce for coverage, and U-Turn + (possibly) Regenerator for a very nice niche. Sadly High Jump Kick is not accurate and hurts you a lot if it misses. He's very good vs the whole team plasma, grimsley, also has his uses against Marshal and Iris. I'd rate him higher but his Mienfoo phase is rather weak, and you're stuck with it long enough for it to get on your nerves. Also, Heracross and Scrafty are better choices for a fighting type. Mid.

    Nosepass - crashandcortex nailed it perfectly. I have absolutely nothing to add to his analysis, it's spot on. It's on page 20. Low.

    Onix - requires trading to evolve and has extremely poor stats other than Defense. Bottom. (T)

    Patrat - god save the queen. Bottom. (T)

    Pawniard - poor man's Scizor, sort of. Comes right before 7th gym.. where he gets revenge killed by coverage moves. Will probably not evolve until after Marlon. He's ok vs Team Plasma and can do some damage to Shauntal and Caitlin, but high evolution level and low BP both STABs and most TM options bring him down a lot. Low.

    Pelipper - arguably the worst water type in the game. Using him was a nightmarish experience. Bottom.

    Pidove - very shallow movepool. He's basically stuck with STABs and U-Turn (if you farm BP for it) unless you like shooting Heat Waves off 65 SpA. The "best" part is that he only learns special Flying moves despite being a physical attacker (other than Sky Attack at.. 66), and getting to, say, Fly takes a bit, not to mention Fly kind of sucks. After godly Staraptor in Gen IV this guy is a huge disappointment. Bottom.
  2. breh

    breh
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    Ok, frankly, Pidove is not bottom. Return is a powerful STAB that's obtained very, very early on and Fly is actually far from bad given its nice BP. I don't know how you thought it was that terrible; I thought it was perfectly acceptable. Return/Fly/Quick Attack/Roost is all it needs ingame; yes, it's walled by Rock- / Steel-types, but all you have to do to avoid those relatively uncommon mons is switch out. I put it in Mid a while back, but I could see how somebody could think it would be Low. Not bottom, though.

    I also think that Onix can't be that bad. You get Onix in Clay Road, at which point you can instantly tutor it Curse and teach it the Dig TM. Evolution is not far off in Chargestone, where you acquire a Metal Coat at the end. Before that, if you so desire, you can give it an eviolite (just like Brock!) to boost its defenses in the meanwhile. As a Steelix, you can tutor it the elemental fangs and eventually learn a variety of random coverage moves (Rock Slide, Crunch). If you've saved more than 3 red shards, you can tutor Steelix Iron Head for a reliable STAB on that type. A set of Curse/Dig/Iron Head/<fang move or Rock Slide> seems really nice, especially against Drayden.
  3. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Pidove is very bottom. Return is powerful after you pump its happiness high enough, and that takes some time unless you actually grind that. If I wanted a pokemon who uses that as its main offensive I'd have caught a Lilipup, who also happens to have a much better movepool. And Fly is 90 BP, not perfect accuracy, and takes two turns to use, AND you're stuck with this as your strongest Flying STAB option. And Hyper Potion>Roost. The only worse Flying types are Swoobat and maybe Pelipper.

    Onix is bad and that's that. Unless you like having to Curse every battle because your attack is just that horrible. And after mid game when you start meeting stronger and evolved pokes you'll spam potions on him like a madman. And not everyone have access to Steelix which is actually important. By the way, Drayden has Revenge on Druddigon and Earth Power on Flygon so have fun with that.

    It's also quite discouraging having to argue after pretty much every post so I'm done here.
  4. crashandcortex

    crashandcortex

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    I thought Clay Road was postgame, though you can get it in a Relic Path cave pre Burgh I think. ._.

    And Onix is absolutely Bottom. Sorry, I see nothing going in Onix's favour whatsoever. Offenseless, awful typing and does pretty much nothing for you or your team. The fact you mentioned Curse shows how bad it is, nothing should really be forced to use Curse on an ingame run, and even if you do, things like Ferroseed use it so much better. Seriously I don't think Onix can even OHKO fire types with a SE STAB move X.X Having to wait till frigging Chargestone (which is sort of wrong as you can Thief Metal Coats off Virbank Magnemite, but Chargestone's easier I guess) for it to not be absolute dead weight and garbage is also pretty schist. Don't use it, ever, honestly, pretty much every other Rock or Ground type is a better choice as they can actually ATTACK stuff and don't require anywhere near as much effort to make them not suck. And this isn't even considering that not everybody can trade, if you can't trade to get Steelix, then Onix should be in the Bottom of Bottom along with Corsola, Skitty and friends. I guess maybe it could be Low with Steelix access, but the whole Onix stage really makes me stick with Bottom. Agreeing with everything said about Pidove though.
  5. IOS

    IOS

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    The obsession with offensive base stats at times is frankly bizarre, and it really sandbags Pokemon like Pidove.

    Let's take a neutral nature Lvl 21 Flaffy and Tranquill with 15 IVs in everything and 0 EVs (for simplicity's sake):

    Tranquill: 60 HP, 40 Atk, 34 Def, 29 Spatk, 25 Spdef, 35 Spd
    Flaffy: 63 HP, 31 Atk, 31 Def, 41 Spatk, 33 Spdef, 27 Spd

    Flaffy has more special attack, so if Tranquill is stuck with Air Cutter, it must be winning offensively, right? Well let's see how much damage it does vs. a Lvl 21 Trubbish (chosen due to neither Pokemon having effective moves, and Trubbish having equal def and spdef)

    Tranquill w/Air Cutter: 15-18
    Flaffy w/Thundershock: 15-18

    The exact same amount. BP matters far more than offensive base stats for most of the game. Just for fun, if Tranquill was two levels higher, it would have done 17-20 damage. Level is another factor more important than offensive base stats.

    Another example at Lvl 33:

    Ampharos: 107 HP, 59 Atk, 59 Def, 85 Spatk, 69 SpDef, 46 Spd
    Unfezant: 100 HP, 79 Atk, 62 Def, 52 Spatk, 46 SpDef, 71 Spd

    Unfezant now has access to Fly. Let's take a Lvl 33 Trubbish

    Ampharos w/Electro Ball @60 BP: 42-50
    Unfezant w/Fly: 58-68

    Neat.

    Even at Lvl 40, when Ampharos finally learns Discharge (vs. Lvl 40 Trubbish):

    Ampharos: 66-77
    Unfezant: 68-80

    Now onto a few other topics:

    -If Fly taking two turns is a serious detriment, you better lower Drilbur and especially Sandile, who relies on Dig for pretty much the entire game.
    -Return requires no grinding. Remember how Riolu evolves naturally after around two gyms? Its happiness at that point would have to be 220. If Pidove has the same happiness, we're talking about an 88 BP STAB by the third gym.

    Pidove for mid, low at the worst. At the very least it should be in the same tier as Mareep. I haven't even gotten into Pidove's constant speed advantage
  6. CabooseFTW

    CabooseFTW

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    Pidove was a piece of crap in BW and I don't see anything changing for it. I don't understand how Unfezant's fly beating a 55 base speed pokemon's Electro Ball is a big accomplishment. Even though his movepool sucks, Return/Frustration early game is good for it. Besides, Flareon isn't in Bottom. Low
  7. IOS

    IOS

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    The point was, Mareep is considered a mid tier Pokemon. There needs to be some sort of consistency when ranking Pokemon, or the tier list is useless.
  8. CabooseFTW

    CabooseFTW

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    Consistency is part of my argument too though. Let's compare Unfezant to, say, Flareon. Unfezant's fly vs Flareon's Fire Fang against the same Trubbish. At maximum, Flareon does 80%, while unfezant does 57%. Very underwhelming for a fully evolved pokemon. We've already established flareon as low, so why should something who can rarely 2HKO a trubbish be rated higher?
  9. IOS

    IOS

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    So you're saying that Mareep should fall to low as well?

    Also if you were using a Lvl 33 Trubbish w/15 IVs across the board, 0 EVs and a neutral nature then the following Pokemon can't OHKO it either:

    Lvl 33 Zoroark w/Night Slash (30 IVs across the board, Hasty nature)
    Lvl 33 Magnezone w/Electro Ball (fails to outspeed, so 60 BP)
    Lvl 33 Scraggy w/Payback (going last)

    The Trubbish was purely hypothetical so I could compare Mareep and Pidove directly. In reality, natures could differ and EVs would certainly be a factor. Your Pokemon may even have a level lead. It shouldn't be used to determine "who's good and who isn't".
  10. CabooseFTW

    CabooseFTW

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    Neither of my examples actually OHKO'd. All I was saying was if you want to use an outclassed pokemon with a bad movepool, pidove isn't the best option
  11. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    You forget to mention that in the time it takes Unfezant to do one Fly, Ampharos will do two Discharges/Electro Balls, thus making your calculations redundant. Two Returns always do more damage than one Fly, bar ghosts obviously. You also forgot to mention that Ampharos has actual type coverage with electric attack/signal beam/power gem while the only thing Unfezant can hit super effectively are bugs and grass. Not to mention Mareep line has Thunder Wave and a very good ability. Yet he's still Mid at best. And you're seriously comparing them? Please.

    Drillbur and Sandile both have access to Bulldoze, and Excadrill learns Earthquake at 36 (can do 33 if you hold off with evolving two levels). They're only stuck with Dig for what, one gym (assuming you're not using them in Clay's) and two routes?
  12. breh

    breh
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    Manveru, you cannot call Electric move / Signal Beam actual coverage; Power Gem is gotten later on. Having to switch Ampharos out of every single Grass/Poison and every single Ground-type is annoying. I cannot deny that Unfezant lacks coverage, but if you're going to make the comparison, choose something relevant to compare it to.

    Caboose, answer me a question: when do you get relevant physical STAB for Unfezant in BW1? Oh, that's right, in the town with the 4th gym. Before that, you're stuck with the awful Air Cutter. In BW2, however, that's not the same - that same STAB is now located at the conclusion of gym 1. Right off the bat, just like any other Normal-type, Pidove has an extremely potent STAB attack.

    On the topic of Onix, let's look at some maps, shall we?

    [​IMG]

    This is the location of Relic Path - notably, the northern part is accessed as soon as you get into Driftveil.

    [​IMG]

    This is the location of Chargestone. You may notice that the only thing separating the two locations is Driftveil and Chargestone. Onix is obtained at level 30 in Relic Path. You have no obligation to take Onix with you to Clay and getting it through Chargestone shouldn't be too terrible given Dig. Once you finish that dungeon, you trade it and recieve a monster with 75/200 on the physical side.

    Obviously, tradeless Onix is Bottom. However, Onix with trade enabled (note: BW1 tierlist had the same separate ranks for trade and tradeless mons!) is far higher - Steelix is a great Pokemon.
  13. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Power Gem is level 35 which is at worst Chargestone Cave-ish, unless you're underleveled. That's shortly after Signal Beam (assuming shards). And I was simply pointing some things out as a response to IOS, not actually comparing.
  14. IOS

    IOS

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    Wrong.

    A two turn attack takes 6 seconds until the enemy Pokemon faints with animations off:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnLilYKydUE#t=5m03s

    A regular attack takes 4 seconds until the enemy Pokemon faints with animations off:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v-I0dnFNdE#t=6m23

    So uh...enjoy your 2 second advantage? Not to mention, Ampharos is taking damage during one of those turns.

    Pidove's ability doubles the chances of critical hits, which means 1 in every 8 attacks will critical on average, instead of 1 in every 16. That's significant, and will result in faster battles. Thunder Wave is a nice perk, I'll admit, but more for the 25% chance of the enemy being unable to move. Unfezant will have few problems out-speeding without it, while Ampharos relies on paralysis to outspeed.

    Like it or not, they're perfectly comparable.

    Why on earth would you use a move with 20 less BP just to save 2 seconds a turn? Sandile doesn't even have speed problems either. That's actually going to cost you more time and damage.
  15. Rechi

    Rechi

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    IOS, what are the fuck are you talking about seconds for? They're talking about turns, not litreral time.

    Ampharos uses Discharge twice, Unfezant uses Fly.

    Ampharos 2HKOs and gets hit once after the first turn. Unfezant uses Fly, doesn't OHKO, gets hit once after Fly's damage turn and has to use two more turns to hit with Fly again. Ampharos accomplishes in 2 turns what Unfezant does in 4. Ampharos is more efficient and quicker both turn-wise and literal time-wise.
  16. IOS

    IOS

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    This is assuming an efficient playstyle. Turns are irrelevant, only time is relevant. The game doesn't even keep track of turns ingame, while it does keep track of time. When it comes down to it, why do turns matter? Because it comes down to the assumption that less turns=less time, which isn't necessarily the case.

    Again, there's a mere two second advantage without animations.

    EDIT: It's possible that with animations on, they might even be equal. I'm pretty sure Electro Ball/Discharge's animations take longer than Dig or Fly's.

    EDIT2: Here's a link if you need a refresher:
    http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue13/ingame_tierlist

  17. CabooseFTW

    CabooseFTW

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    It seems like you feel very strongly about this. There's no point in debating Pidove anyway. Just move the conversation along
  18. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    You're shooting own goals here. If seconds matter, and I get 2 seconds every time, then considering how often I use said moves over the course of the game, it ends up being a considerable amount of time which I saved. And that doesn't even include the fact that Fly can (and will) miss at least a few times. Now you'll probably count the exact amount of time I'll save to prove that it's not so much? Hold on, let me grab some popcorn.

    Mareep has auto static, Pidove has to hunt for Super Luck, seriously drop the comparison already.
  19. IOS

    IOS

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    It's really not much, since Mareep often fails to outspeed and has to sit through an extra enemy attack. That takes...you guessed it...about 2 seconds. Pidove on the other hand rarely has speed issues.

    The "Pidove only has its best ability half the time" argument is fair I suppose, although keep in mind it's found much more easily than Mareep (25% vs. 10%).

    I really see it as a toss-up, and you could argue either Mareep or Pidove into either Mid or Low. Bottom on the other hand is as ridiculous as suggesting it should be in High.

    I'll drop it if you want, just keep in mind the nature of tier lists involves debates. If you're not prepared to defend your opinions, don't post them.
  20. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    No you can't. A pokemon who has actual advantage over two gyms, an E4 member, plasma sage and half of Iris's pokemon is not comparable to a pokemon who only has advantage over Burgh, no matter what. This is why comparing them is pointless and any discussion on this particular topic is just a waste of time.
  21. IOS

    IOS

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    The one extra gym I will give you. The rest I will not.

    Which plasma sage does Ampharos have an advantage against? There's Rood's Swoobat I suppose. Yet Unfezant has an advantage vs. one of the Triad's Accelgor and Ghetsis' Toxicroak. 2 beats 1.

    No Elite 4 members have parties filled with Pokemon weak to electric. There is one Drifblim and one Sigilyph it has advantages over. That's it.

    Meanwhile, Pidove is effective against all four of Marshall's Pokemon and Scraggy. 5 beats 2.

    I hope you're not going to argue Signal Beam against Dark and Psychic Pokemon. The Pokemon who would be weak against it would be Liepard, Krookodile, Musharna, Reuniclus and Gothitelle.

    Let's take Unfezant and Ampharos at Level 58 for both, and use the usual parameters.

    Liepard (142 HP, 69 Def and SpDef)

    Ampharos w/Signal Beam: 136-160
    Unfezant w/Return @ max happiness: 127-149

    Ampharos wins this battle. Similar case with Krookodile since it has the same def and spdef. However, when we get to the others:

    Musharna (204 HP, 108 Def and 119 SpDef)

    Ampharos: 83-97
    Unfezant: 84-99

    Reuniclus (197 HP, 97 Def and 108 SpDef)

    Ampharos: 91-107
    Unfezant: 94-110

    Gothitelle (157 HP, 123 Def and 141 SpDef)

    Ampharos: 70-83
    Unfezant: 74-88

    Keep in mind, Unfezant has a one in eight chance of criticalling at any point too ;)

    Finally, Ampharos has STAB advantage over 2 of Iris's Pokemon, not half her team as you said previously.

    So now we've determined that having Signal Beam really doesn't work much in Ampharos's favor. If we include Iris, he has advantage over 4 pokemon, while Unfezant has an advantage over 5. Plus Unfezant is immune to Shadow Balls/Punches vs. Shauntal as a nice bonus.

    Now finally, Ampharos is going to have speed issues throughout the entire Elite 4(similar to his performance over the rest of the game). That's not good considering how powerful they are. He's much more susceptible to dying as a result.

    I'm also surprised you used gym advantages as your "be all end all argument". Is Mareep better than Darumaka for that reason? I didn't think so.
  22. articless

    articless

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    mareep meet magnemite
    best definition of outclassed.

    however that doesn't change the fact pidove is still very weak in game, i would say after listening to the discussion both mareep and pidove deserve same tier, with mareep being marginally higher in the tier

    not going to give in game info as that has been thrown around a bit.

    now onto the "time" argument...
    lets say fly 2hkos and a single "turn" attack 2hkos

    fly takes 2 seconds longer than the first single target attack, and then takes 2 seconds longer than the second single target attack, meaning if fly would 2hko it will take 4 seconds to knock out the pokemon. if we are taking seconds per attack seriously then that will add up over the long run, but honestly i think that it doesn't matter and shouldn't be considered as has been said dig takes two turns......
  23. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    wait what we're talking about actual time now? we aren't speedrunning through the game lol, might as well make a TAS tierlist then

    honestly though i'm not exactly sure what's the base happiness of Pidove (i'm just going to assume its 70) but once you get it you should be dumping Frustration onto it immediately. pidove gets a 74 BP STAB move off its higher attack stat and you can use it for quite a while. Riolu evolves around L20 yes but we need to remember that Riolu is not an accurate gauge of Pidove's happiness because Riolu comes earlier at a lower level hence its happiness will be higher than that of Pidove's by the time you get it.

    Assuming a rate of +5 per level up for friendship level under 100 and +3 per level up for friendship level between 100 and 200, it takes roughly 15 levels (taking into account number of steps, grooming in Castelia, etc) for Frustration and Return to be of equal power (Happiness is around 127-128). By this time, Pidove should be sometime into Tranquill, and you only really suffer during this part because F/R is a measly 51 BP. Things only get better past this point though because Return's power will steadily increase at the rate of 1.2 BP every level. At L24, this happens to be... after Burgh. Right.

    So yeah. Pidove has a decent earlygame because of 70+BP Frustration immediately, and it has a full-powered Return by lategame. So uh, we penalise it to low for its shit midgame? It's supposed to be shit anyway because of Elesa >.>

    I think Mid is good for this guy.

    also you do realise Unfezant can just Aerial Ace instead after skyla ._.
  24. crashandcortex

    crashandcortex

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    Bit late and pointless for me to discuss this, seeing I'm of the "Mareep Mid, Pidove Low but not Bottom" mentality, but:

    Technically Pidove has 2 advantages too, given its immunity to ground.

    ... Who? Signal Beaming against Caitlin is futile due to the ridiculous bulk of her team, and things like Reuniclus and even Gothitelle will eat you up for breakfast with Psychic if you try that. Unfezant meanwhile has a natural type advantage against Marshall, who in B/W2 only has Stone Edge on Conkeldurr.

    Beating Zinzolin isn't an accomplishment as anything with a physical attack stat can trash 2/3 of his members, Unfezant possibly included if you're faster than the Cryogonal. If you really wanted to win against him with Ampharos, you'd use Thunderpunch, not Power Gem, and I doubt Ampharos would beat Weavile.

    Loses to Hydreigon, Druddigon, Haxorus and Aggron as the latter 2 have Earthquake, Druddigon has Sheer Force and good defenses and Hydreigon is Hydreigon. I only see 2 it wins against. 2 is better than 0 though I guess.

    Regardless I was a bit bemused by the whole Pidove VS Mareep discussion, even if I do get sick of people bashing Pidove. It's not like you use Fly as your main attack, you only use it against Grass types and Bug types while using the more powerful 1 turn Return under most circumstances. Stuff like this is why I think a splitting of Mid could help us tier stuff better, as Mareep is NOT in the same tier as stuff like Huge Power Azurill, Volcarona and Lillipup, and Pidove is imo a little bit better than Low but not excessively so, they do however both fit in a hypothetical Lower Mid tier.

    Now for a few more theory votes to (hopefully) spice things up:

    Baltoy for Low. Awful stats, appears later than you'd expect it to and when it evolves into Claydol the situation doesn't improve any for it. It is funny that it learns Hyper Beam at level 36 though, but it just lacks offense, and a defensive Pokemon weak to Bug, Grass and Water being used ingame doesn't seem like a brilliant idea to me.

    Klink for Low (MAYBE Lower-Mid if the split's ever made?). Late evolutions and very much reliant on setup, but it has a great defensive typing that could potentially carry it through both Skyla and Drayden, as well as a great move full stop in Gear Grind. I imagine it'd work pretty well as a pivot, but relying on STAB Gear Grind and its utter lack of coverage for the whole game isn't exactly pretty.

    Elgyem for Low. Hands down one of the worst Psychic types in the game. Late, rare unless you go to the summit, late evolution, awful stats (particularly a combination of ridiculously low Speed and low defenses), surprisingly terrible offensive coverage (Psychic move, Dark Pulse and Energy Ball don't cover much at all, Shadow Ball is redundant with Dark Pulse and Signal Beam only hits Grass and Dark types, that's your entire movepool until the end of Victory Road where you get Thunderbolt) and requires detours or shard grinding for every one of its alternative moves. Don't even try it without getting the appropriate moves as its stuck with mono-Psychic, actually don't try it anyways. It doesn't even improve as a Beheeyem when it finally evolves, it's still just as fucking slow and still is unusually frail for such a slow mon.
  25. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    And Rock Tomb on Throh. And Sturdy+Rock Slide on Sawk. Are you going to chance it on misses?

    @IOS
    I never said anything about STAB, just super effective. Ampharos has enough bulk to take Caitlin with Signal Beam (tbolt for sigilyph obv), especially since Lucky Egg is redundant at this point and he can use a "proper" item. It's not the most efficient way of doing this, but possible. He can also take Hydreigon, Lapras, and Archeops, with the last one being more problematic than the first two. Sage I meant was the ice-type user, I have no idea what his name is as I can't read japanese. Obviously he can't do all that without potions. It's not a theorycrap. I did that. You can do that too! I haven't used him vs Grimsley as Krookodile has EQ and Liepard dies to anything anyway. I mean come on, AI pokes have 0 EVs, they're not as strong as they could be, nowhere near that.

    I can concede with Pidove for Low and that's that.
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