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Cacturne (BW2 Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by col49, Jun 8, 2013.

  1. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Hey, so been using this quite a bit and I'm fairly confident that SD doesn't deserve it's own set, mostly outclassed by Shifty (kinda has a niche in being immune to Scald, but that's about it) and would be better off getting AC in the Spikes set, where it can function to an extent. SubPunch is also just not very good imo, but that may just be because I kinda hate SubPunch as a whole illegal and still lame. Otherwise not much to say, fairly straightforward 'mon imo.

    Code:
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    [*]Confirm item / move slashes [✓]
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    King Shaqtus

    [Overview]

    <p>At a glance, it is difficult to justify the use of Cacturne in the RU metagame. With so many potent Grass-types available for use, it hardly seems wise to handicap yourself with a Pokemon like Cacturne. However, despite its appearance, Cacturne is actually quite unique in what it offers. Due to Cacturne's high offensive stats and powerful STAB Sucker Punch, it is one of the tier's best offensive Spikes users, capable of threatening a variety of common Pokemon in order to set up entry hazards. To add to this, Cacturne is also able to apply significant offensive pressure to both Kabutops and Cryogonal, the most common and effective Rapid Spin users of the tier, allowing it to effectively prevent its entry hazards from being removed on its own. What's more, its unique typing, complemented by its useful ability in Water Absorb, makes it a very effective choice for offensively-inclined teams, checking threatening Pokemon such as Slowking and Substitute + Calm Mind Uxie, as well as comfortably switching into bulky Water-types. However, Cacturne's lack of natural bulk means that it is heavily reliant on its resistances to take hits of any kind, meaning that it often struggles to switch in and can be forced out just as easily. What's more, being as slow as it is, Cacturne relies heavily on Sucker Punch to handle offensive threats, making it a very prediction-heavy Pokemon in many situations. While Cacturne is by no means a Pokemon that can be thrown on any team, it does retain a significant niche in the RU metagame and should be taken into consideration when building offensive teams.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Lonely / Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 152 SpA / 104 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Cacturne's high offensive stats, unique typing, and potent movepool, it makes an excellent offensive Spikes user. As Cacturne is capable of threatening a variety of Pokemon, ranging from frail sweepers to common defensive pivots, it is capable of finding opportunities to set up Spikes as the opposing Pokemon are forced to switch out. One of Cacturne's most effective tools in threatening Pokemon is its STAB Sucker Punch, which allows it to pick off a variety of frail faster Pokemon. Moreover, Sucker Punch applies significant pressure upon the best Rapid Spin users in the tier, Kabutops and Cryogonal, dealing major damage to the former and OHKOing the latter almost always with a Life Orb. Seed Bomb provides Cacturne with a safe STAB move capable of immediately threatening the Water-types it checks, as well as preventing Kabutops from switching into Cacturne and threatening to either spin away its entry hazards or KO with Stone Edge. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire allows Cacturne to round off its coverage, punishing Steel-types such as Escavalier and Durant as well as defensively-inclined Grass-types, most notably Tangrowth. On the other hand, while Substitute leaves Cacturne vulnerable to Steel-types, it does allow Cacturne to stay in on a variety of Pokemon that would otherwise force it out, as well as minimizing the risk associated with using Sucker Punch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Cacturne's offensive presence while providing it enough Speed to outpace minimally invested Lanturn, allowing Cacturne to KO with Seed Bomb before being weakened by a potential Ice Beam or Thunder Wave. However, if Substitute is used over Hidden Power Fire, it would be worthwhile to invest the Special Attack EVs in Speed, as many common Pokemon, such as Aggron, Bouffalant, and Golurk, also aim to outpace Lanturn. In terms of item choice, the extra power of Life Orb is somewhat of a necessity when utilizing Hidden Power Fire in order for it to inflict significant damage upon its primary targets, while Leftovers's guaranteed recovery is largely preferable in conjunction with Substitute in order to set up more comfortably. However, that is not to say that Cacturne is restricted to these items, as it is capable of utilizing a reasonably wide arrangement of alternative options in order to allow to better fulfill certain roles. Some of the most pertinent of these choices are Dark Gem, which provides Cacturne a useful "middle ground" option between Leftovers and Life Orb, whose boost in power can allow it to better check certain sweepers, and Occa Berry, which allows it to switch more safely into Slowking and Grass-types without risking being blown out of the water by Fire Blast or Hidden Power Fire, respectively. Should the necessity to hit Normal-types be particularly high, Low Kick and Superpower both hit such Pokemon while retaining coverage against Steel-types, but it should be noted that critical targets of Hidden Power Fire, namely Escavalier and Durant, aren't hit particularly hard by this. Moreover, Swords Dance can be used in order to put even further pressure on the opponent to play around Sucker Punch and give Cacturne a window to sweep late-game, but opposing priority users make it rather difficult for it to do so.</p>

    <p>In terms of partners, Cacturne has a variety of Pokemon that help make its job a little bit easier. Choice Scarf Emboar is a perfect example of this, offering a strong switch-in to support-based Grass-types capable of "absorbing" their Sleep Powders and Spores nicely, in addition to baiting bulky Water-types that Cacturne can in turn capitalize on. Moreover, while Cacturne is more than capable of setting up Spikes alongside several common entry hazard users, it is placed in a stalemate position in doing so that can often lead to both sides getting up all their entry hazards of choice. This makes having a spinner highly encouraged, and offensively speaking, Kabutops is the best fit for such a role, offering a solid switch-in to difficult Pokemon such as Entei and providing further offensive pressure on the opponent. However, Water-types as a whole are solid partners for Cacturne, providing good defensive synergy and forming a classic Fire / Water / Grass core, and if hazards are not an issue, then Kabutops can very well be substituted for an alternative Water-type. Omastar and Samurott both prove excellent examples of alternatives, with the former similarly capitalizing on Entei through Shell Smash and the latter acting as an effective wallbreaker to break up defensive cores. Lastly, while Cacturne is fairly self-sufficient in maintaining its own entry hazards against the spinners of the tier, defensive Rotom is a very helpful teammate, offering a solid offensive presence capable of capitalizing on Cacturne's Spikes, a useful resist to Bug-, Flying-, and Fighting-type attacks, and the ability to spinblock, deterring the opponent from attempting to Rapid Spin. Rotom is also the best candidate for spinblocking Kabutops, who Cacturne experiences some issues against as a spinner.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>While Cacturne actually possesses a fairly expansive movepool, this is largely overshadowed by the very similar Shiftry, whose extra Speed gives it the advantage in a sweeping role under most conditions, namely through both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. For this reason, Cacturne is generally restricted to be used as a Spikes setter in order for it to avoid being outclassed. However, Cacturne's low Speed does benefit it in a Trick Room setting, where its high Attack and Special Attack, excellent coverage, and resistances to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks makes it a fully capable Trick Room sweeper. Additionally, a set utilizing Destiny Bond alongside Custap Berry is an interesting tactic for eliminating problematic Pokemon, but this does require significant maneuvering and knowledge of how well Cacturne can take certain hits in order to be utilized to its fullest potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While outright preventing Cacturne from fulfilling its role as a Spikes setter is difficult, as it is capable of pressuring most conventional responses to entry hazards rather well, several Pokemon can simply threaten it offensively. Fire-types, especially ones like Entei and Emboar that can handle Sucker Punch well, are problematic for Cacturne, as it cannot effectively prevent them from switching in while they can OHKO with their STAB attacks in return. Offensively inclined Steel-types, such as Aggron and Klinklang, can switch into most of Cacturne's arsenal safely and proceed to either set up on it or outright KO it with their STAB moves. Although they don't particularly enjoy Life Orb Hidden Power Fire, bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss are more than capable of switching into Cacturne and can cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. While Pokemon like Hitmonlee and Primeape don't take Seed Bomb very well, they are otherwise fairly safe responses to Cacturne, resisting Sucker Punch and capable of threatening it with the prospect of a powerful Close Combat. Finally, offensive Substitute users, such as Sceptile, Rotom-F, and Scolipede, are capable of playing around Cacturne's Substitute with proper prediction, forcing it into a 50-50 prediction scenario.</p>

    skelli (open)
    [Overview]
    • There are so many Grass-type 'mons made available and usable, both defensive and offensive, so faces some pretty serious competition for a slot
    • Cacturne's real niche is as an offensive Spikes user, being able to find a decent amount of free turns due to offensive pressure and an assortment of cool resists / immunities
    • Cool offensive options, including a damn powerful Sucker Punch, and the ability to go mixed allow it to threaten a variety of Pokemon after it comes in safely, in addition to allowing it to threaten the major spinners of the tier
    • Still pretty slow and frail, it faces some real difficulty switching in and can be forced out without too much trouble
    • Relies pretty heavily on Sucker Punch when taking on offensive teams, meaning that it can be a pretty prediction-heavy 'mon at times
    • As unorthodox as it is, Cacturne has a distinguishable niche in the RU metagame, and is worth taking into consideration when building offensively inclined teams

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Lonely / Adamant
    evs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Due to Cacturne's high offensive presence and unique set of resistances, Cacturne finds quite a few opportunities to set up Spikes
    • Cacturne's high offensive presence and STAB attacks also put significant strain on common spinners like Kabutops and Cryogonal, allowing it to effectively preserve its own hazards
    • STAB Sucker Punch is generally a solid move to have, allows Cacturne to keep a handful of frailer sweepers in check and pick off spinners before they can get a move in
    • Seed Bomb offers Cacturne a useful secondary STAB move that allows Cacturne to deal consistent damage
    • Hidden Power Fire provides Cacturne a method taking on bulky Steel- and Grass-types, allowing it to pressure Ferroseed and threaten switch-ins such as Escavalier and Tangrowth
    • On the other hand, Substitute really buffs Cacturne's staying power, helping it maneuver around spinners better and generally having good synergy with Sucker Punch

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The given EVs allow it outpace defensive Lanturn to avoid compromising itself to an Ice Beam or Thunder Wave and of course maximize offensive presence and bulk
    • When using HP Fire, EVs invested in bulk can be traded over to SpA no problem. 68 EVs guarantee LO Cacturne to OHKO standard Esca after SR, and 112 EVs allows it to OHKO Offensive Tangrowth and standard Ferroseed after SR+Spikes
    • In terms of item choice, Leftovers is definitely preferable in the use of Substitute, since Water Absorb isn't reliable enough recovery, though non-Sub variants really appreciate the extra power boost (not to say its bad, just not recommended)
    • Cacturne has a couple unconventional, yet viable, alternative items to work with. The most notable of these are Dark Gem, which offers a solid "middle ground" in terms of power:longevity that allows it to maintain a powerful Sucker Punch, and Occa Berry, which allows Cacturne to eat the off-hand HP Fire or a Slowking Fire Blast and act accordingly
    • In terms of alternate attacks, Low Kick / Superpower offers similar Steel-type coverage as HP Fire, though most of the targets are hit harder by HP Fire and Cacturne can afford to go mixed without too much hassle
    • Swords Dance is a cool option for allowing Cacturne to double as a late-game cleaner, though doing so requires some serious para support more often than not
    • Choice Scarf Emboar is one of the better partners for this set, since it switches into the Grass-types Cacturne usually finds itself up against quite well, and while it doesn't benefit from Spikes more so than any other offensive 'mon, it does tend to bait Pokemon Cacturne can Spike up on (Slowking, Qwilfish, Momo, Rhydon~ish, etc.)
    • That said, Cacturne itself does tend to draw in Spikes users, making a spinner such as Kabutops never a bad idea
    • Rotom is also far from a bad idea, as even though it can self-spinblock decently a healthy Kabutops can still come through and spin, making a deterrent never a bad idea. Rotom also provides a nice check to Bug-, Fighting-, and Flying-type attacks, which is chill

    [Other Options]
    • A dedicated Swords Dance set is usable, but its also usable on the faster Shiftry (and it can be argued that Nature Power > Low Kick), who is generally superior in the role barring Cacturne's access to Water Absorb
    • It has Nasty Plot, but is far too slow to make use of it
    • Cacturne's good offensive stats, nice coverage, and resistances to Ghost- and Dark-type attacks make it a solid candidate for use in Trick Room
    • DBond+Chople Berry is actually really fun if you get good at getting Cacturne under 25% safely, but pretty gimmicky overall

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Not much really stops it from spiking up, but a number of 'mons can apply pressure on it
    • Fire-types, especially those that can play around / don't care about Sucker Punch, are pretty prominent responses to Cacturne, since they normally outright OHKO it. Entei, Sub Moltres, and Emboar are all notable examples of this
    • Offensive Steel-types, notably Aggron and Klinklang can be a problem if given too many opportunities
    • Bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss can threaten to either put it to sleep or dispatch it with the appropriate attack
    • Strong Fighting-types like Hitmonlee and Primeape can't necessarily switch in Seed Bomb very well, but otherwise they can come in pretty comfortably and threaten it out with the threat of their STAB attacks (though Primeape is taking ~50% from a LO Sucker Punch, so it needs to be moderately healthy)
    • Well-played Substitute users can play around Cacturne's Sucker Punch, pressuring a 50-50 mindgame
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2013
  2. Spirit

    Spirit
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    I thought encore was illegal with spikes and water absorb? I'd recommend giving super power a slash or something, you beat Reflect Cryogonal with it which would otherwise play mind games with you or maybe have focus sash somewhere. That's just my two cents.
  3. Honko

    Honko
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    afaik Encore is illegal with Water Absorb (it was a gen 3 event move) :(
  4. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Wow, Showdown was letting me get away with Encore, I feel cheated :[[[ Welp, I guess I'll be editing those bits out then haha, sorry 'bout that
  5. Spirit

    Spirit
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    I just tried it now, showdown doesn't let you use it... Just a heads up.
  6. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Yeah, double-checked that myself, perhaps just some bug that got fixed or just me being dumb lol. Either way, fixed, sorry gaiz :(
  7. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    • Make sure to mention how cool Water Absorb can be in the overview, it lets Cacturne get an extra bit of recovery on occasion and getting a free switch in to Scald without risking a burn is never a bad thing. It also gives you an advantage against things like weakened Kabutops, as even if they decide to Aqua Jet to evade Sucker Punch it'll just end up healing you up. Water Absorb Cacturne is immune to both of Slowking's STABs too, and although Fire Blast still hurts, its pretty nice to have those dual immunities.

    • I'd suggest slashing Leftovers with Life Orb and Substitute with Hidden Power Fire instead of mentioning them in the AC, its probably the set i've had the most success with, and Substitute+Sucker Punch helps ease prediction quite a bit. Having that cushion to set up on extra layer of Spikes before switching out helps a lot too.

    EDIT: Unless Cacturne's extra hp investment helps it avoid a certain KO, i'd probably place its extra hp evs into special attack instead. This raises the chance to OHKO Ferroseed after Stealth Rock and also lets Cacturne OHKO Tangrowth after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of spikes.

    remove the encore mention in the second to last line in the AC, its illegal with water absorb

    Make these changes and you can consider this

    QC Approved 1/3
  8. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    really stress how nice it is that Cacturne destroys every spinner in the tier meaning you'll more than likely get at least 1 or 2 layers of Spikes throughout the course of a match nearly guaranteed; this is fantastic utility for a more offensively inclined team that can't settle for slower/weaker Spiker like Qwilfish, Smeargle, or Roselia. Also mention the utility of Sucker Punch that Cacturne has over Scolipede and Accelgor and the generally higher damage output in general compared to those two.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  9. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Alrighty, sorry for the delay guys. Implemented everything, and I'll be sure to flesh out Cacturne's niche over alternative Spikers in the write-up, pinky promise. As for the point about EVs, as a matter of personal preference I find that from an organizational standpoint using the spread with bulk as the main spread makes more sense (having a big chunk of SpA EVs on a set that doesn't necessarily even run special attacks comes across as odd imo, especially to a new player), and then I just stress in AC that SpA EVs can achieve some important KOs and mention a couple benchmarks for it, as I have it now. I'll start writing the portions that this doesn't affect right away, but I'd like to confirm that this is appropriate before I rush off and write something only to rewrite it afterwords. Thank ya kindly :)
  10. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    ok guys, not dead for reals this time '~' sorry for taking ages to get off my ass and do this, written and ready for a final chek n_n

    edit: oh, and forgot to mention i fixed the EVs to not be gross and awkward and went with mentioning some SpA benchmarks in the AC, be sure to let me know if you think there's a more optimal way to go about that '-'
  11. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    About the only thing I may advise here is a Water-type teammate to form a FWG core. (other than Kabutops) Omastar and Samurott come to mind instantly. Omastar can use Entei as setup fodder for Shell Smash (watch out for HP Grass!) while Samurott's great coverage allows it to break down many teams, thus possibly giving Cacturne a chance to sweep late-game with Sucker Punch. Looks good otherwise.

    QC Approved 3/3
  12. Explorer

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    You should mention Cacturne as a better version of Roselia for offensive teams with a better STAB combination (due primarily to Slowking and Uxie). Plus Water Absorb is a great ability to have, another advantage over Roselia. Also, Drain Punch over the aforementioned Superpower would be helpful to give Cacturne recovery and negate LO recoil.
  13. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Ayte, fair enough. Honestly I don't like encouraging FWG cores since (at least to me) it tends to support stale team-building, but I suppose it'd be a little selfish to impose my opinions on to the readers lol. I gave a nod to both 'mons in the AC, feel free to let me know if there's anything else to be added n_n also, I'm kinda rusty, so I hope GP will forgive me for any mistakes I made =(

    edit: @Explorer I wouldn't go as far as to call Cacturne a "better Roselia", as Cacturne serves as more an offensively inclined Spikes user rather than a defensive one, though in writing this I intended to distinguish between the two (without mentioning it by name I think, though I'm pretty sure it is insinuated well enough) and be sure to properly flesh out Cacturne's niche so that the player knows what they're using, what teams should be using, and why. If that isn't made clear then I encourage GP and QC to offer what they can in order to properly convey this n_n
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  14. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Hihi, amcheck! Generally, great job, just make sure to be consistent in what you call Cacturne (you called it 'he' instead of 'it' at times, you need to choose one).

    Additions
    Removes
    Comments


    amcheck (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>At a glance, it is difficult to justify the use of Cacturne in the RU tier. With so many potent Grass-types available for use, it hardly seems wise to handicap oneself with such as yourself with a Pokemon like Cacturne. However, despite its appearance, Cacturne is actually quite unique in what it is. (That last part 'what it is' confused me a bit. Maybe replace it something like 'what it offers' or 'what it brings to the table', or something of the sort.) Due to Cacturne's high offensive stats and powerful STAB Sucker Punch, (AC) it is one of the tier's best offensive Spikes users, capable of threatening a variety of common Pokemon in order to set up entry hazards. To compile upon this, Cacturne is also able to apply significant offensive pressure on both Kabutops and Cryogonal, the most effective Rapid Spin users of the tier, allowing it to effectively prevent its entry hazards from being removed on its own. What's more, its unique typing, complimented complemented by its useful ability in Water Absorb ability, makes it a very effective choice for offensively inclined teams, checking threatening Pokemon such as Slowking and Substitute + Calm Mind SubCM Uxie, (AC) as well as comfortably switching into bulky Water-types. However, Cacturne's lack of natural bulk means that it is heavily reliant on its resistances to take hits of any kind, meaning that it often struggles to switch in and can be forced out just as easily. What's more, being as slow as it is, (AC) Cacturne relies heavily upon Sucker Punch to handle offensive threats, making it a very prediction-heavy Pokemon in many instances situations. While Cacturne is by no means a Pokemon that can be thrown on any team, it does retain a significant niche in the RU metagame, (RC) and should be taken into consideration when building offensive teams.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Lonely / Adamant
    evs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Cacturne's high offensive stats, unique typing, and potent movepool, it makes an excellent offensive Spikes user. As Cacturne is capable of threatening a large assortment of Pokemon, it is capable of finding opportunities to set up Spikes as the opposing Pokemon are forced to switch out. One of Cacturne's most effective tools in threatening Pokemon is its STAB Sucker Punch, which allows it to pick off an assortment variety of faster, frailer Pokemon. (Using the same word in two back-to-back sentneces just seem bland. Mix it up a bit!) Moreover, Sucker Punch applies significant pressure upon the best Rapid Spin users in the tier, Kabutops and Cryogonal, dealing major damage to the former and OHKOing the latter under most conditions. Seed Bomb provides Cacturne a safe STAB move capable of immediately threatening the Water-types it checks, as well as preventing Kabutops from switching into Cacturne and threatening to either spin away its entry hazards or KO with Stone Edge. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire allows Cacturne to round off it's coverage, punishing Steel-types such as Escavalier and Durant as well as defensively inclined Grass-types, most notably Tangrowth. On the other hand, while Substitute leaves Cacturne vulnerable to Steel-types, it does allow it Cacturne to stay in on a variety of Pokemon that would otherwise force it out, as well as minimizing the risk associated with using Sucker Punch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Cacturne's offensive presence and bulk, (RC) while providing it enough Speed to outpace minimally invested Lanturn, (AC) such that allowing Cacturne to it can KO with Seed Bomb before compromising itself being weakened by to a potential Ice Beam or Thunder Wave. However, when using Hidden Power Fire, (AC) it is worth considering an investment in Special Attack in order to better pressure the Steel- and Grass-types it targets. An investment of 68 EVs guarantees Cacturne will OHKO the standard Escavalier after Stealth Rock damage, and with 112 EVs, (AC) Cacturne is capable of KOing both Ferroseed and Ooffensive Tangrowth after damage from Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes. In terms of item choice, the extra power of Life Orb is somewhat of a necessity when utilizing Hidden Power Fire in order for it to inflict significant damage upon its primary targets, while on the other hand (while is being used as 'but' in this circumstance, so the part I omitted is sort of redundant.) Leftover's guaranteed recovery is largely preferable in conjunction with Substitute, (RC) in order to more comfortably set up more comfortably. However, that is not to say that Cacturne is restricted to these items, as it is capable of utilizing a reasonably wide arrangement of alternative options in order to allow to better fulfill certain roles. Some of the most pertinent of these choices are Dark Gem, which provides Cacturne a useful "middle ground" option between Leftovers and Life Orb whose boost in power can allow it to better check certain sweepers, and Occa Berry, which allows it to switch more safely into Slowking and Grass-types without risking being blown out of the water by Fire Blast or Hidden Power Fire, (AC) respectively. Should the necessity to hit Normal-types be particularly high, Low Kick and Superpower both hit such Pokemon while retaining coverage against Steel-types, though but it should be noted that critical targets of Hidden Power Fire, namely Escavalier and Durant, aren't hit particularly hard by this. Moreover, Swords Dance can be used in order to put even further pressure on the opponent to play around Sucker Punch and give Cacturne a window to sweep late-game, though but opposing priority users make it rather difficult for it to do so.</p>

    <p>In terms of partners, Cacturne has a variety of Pokemon that help make its job just a little bit easier. Choice Scarf Emboar is a perfect example of this, offering a strong switch-in to support-based Grass-types capable of "absorbing" their Sleep Powders and Spores nicely, in addition to baiting bulky Water-types that Cacturne can in term capitalize on. Moreover, while Cacturne is more than capable of setting up Spikes alongside several common entry hazard users, he it is placed in a stalemate position in doing so that can often lead to both sides getting up all their entry hazards of choice. This makes having a spinner highly encouraged, and offensively speaking, (AC) Kabutops is the best fit for such a role, offering a solid switch-in to difficult Pokemon such as Entei and providing further offensive pressure on the opponent. However, Water-types as a whole are solid partners for Cacturne, providing good defensive synergy and forming a classic Fire-Water-Grass Fire / Water / Grass core, and if entry hazards are no an issue, (AC) a non-issue then Kabutops can very well be substituted for an alternative Water-type. Omastar and Samurott both prove excellent examples of for this end alternatives, with the former similarly capitalizing on Entei through Shell Smash, (RC) and the latter providing acting as an effectual effective wall-breaker to break up defensive cores. Lastly, while Cacturne is fairly self-sufficient in maintaining its own entry hazards against the spinners of the tier, Rotom is a very helpful teammate, offering a solid offensive presence capable of capitalizing on Cacturne's Spikes, a useful resist to Bug-, Flying-, and Fighting-type attacks, and the ability to spinblock, (AC) a Ghost-type capable of deterring the opponent from haphazardly attempting to Rapid Spin.</p>


    [Other Options]

    <p>While Cacturne actually posseses a fairly expansive movepool, this is largely overshadowed by the very similar Shiftry, whose extra Speed gives it the advantage in a sweeping role under most conditions, namely through both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. For this reason, (AC) Cacturne is generally is, for the most part, restricted to used as a Spikes setter in order for it to avoid being outclassed as a Pokemon. However, Cacturne's low Speed does benefit in a Trick Room setting, where its high Attack and Special Attack, excellent coverage, and resistances to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks makes it a fully capable Trick Room sweeper. Additionally, a set utilizing Destiny Bond alongside Custap Berry is an interesting tactic for eliminating problematic Pokemon, though but this does require significant maneuvering and knowledge of how well Cacturne can take certain hits in order to be utilized to its fullest potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While outright preventing Cacturne from fulfilling its role as a Spikes setter is difficult, as it is capable of pressuring most conventional responses to entry hazards rather well, several Pokemon can simply threaten it offensively. Fire-types, especially ones like such as Entei and Emboar that can handle Sucker Punch well, are problematic for Cacturne, as he it cannot effectively prevent them from switching in while in return they can threaten to OHKO them with their STAB attacks in return. Offensively inclined Steel-types, (AC) such as Aggron and Klinklang, (AC) can switch into most of Cacturne's arsenal safely and proceed to either set up on it or outright KO it with their STAB moves. Bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss, while not particularly enjoying Life Orb-boosted Hidden Power Fires, are more than capable of switching into Cacturne and proceeding to cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. While Fighting-types such as Hitmonlee and Primeape don't take Seed Bomb very well, they are otherwise fairly safe responses to Cacturne, resisting Sucker Punch and capable of threatening it with the prospect of a powerful Close Combat. (So, all fighting-types in general dislike a Seed Bomb? You gave Hitmonlee and Primeape as examples, but your sentence states that Fighting-types in general, like Emboar, dislike a Seed Bomb. I think you might want to omit the 'Fighting-types such as' part and just have Hitmonlee, Primeape, or whatever examples you wish to give to not be misleading.) Finally, offensive Substitute users are capable of playing around Cacturne's Substitute with proper prediction, forcing it into a 50-50 prediction scenario.</p>
  15. sirndpt

    sirndpt too cool for a custom title
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    some changes over @Governess's amcheck:

    To compile upon this add to this, Cacturne is also able to apply significant offensive pressure on to both Kabutops and Cryogonal,

    As Cacturne is capable of threatening a large assortment of Pokemon, it is capable of finding opportunities to set up Spikes as the opposing Pokemon are forced to switch out. i'd get more specific about which pokemon specifically, as the impression i get from your overview is that it's not one of those pokemon that can switch into generic supporters and weak attackers and 'p much everything'

    Leftover's Leftovers's guaranteed recovery

    provides Cacturne a useful "middle ground" option between Leftovers and Life Orb,(comma) whose boost in power can allow it to better check certain sweepers

    'if entry hazards are a non-issue' is okay, but i would add the comma before 'then'

    While Cacturne actually posseses possesses a fairly expansive movepool

    Bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss, while not particularly enjoying Life Orb-boosted Hidden Power Fires, are more than capable of switching into Cacturne and proceeding to cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. this should technically be 'wearing', but at this point the sentence is a bit too convoluted haha - so i'd rephrase the entire thing, perhaps as 'Although they don't particularly enjoy Life Orb Hidden Power Fire, bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss are more than capable of switching into Cacturne, and can cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks.'

    finally i'd give some examples of 'offensive Substitute users'

    gp 1/2
  16. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    awesome, thanks Governess and sirndpt, I do believe I got all that n_n
  17. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    Me and Molk talked some more, and we want those HP EVs moved. They need to either go to Speed for max Speed, or they can go to Special Attack. Running max Speed is probably worth it though so that Cacturne Speed ties with Crawdaunt, Omastar, and Bouffalant. With the Special Attack Evs, it raises the chance to OHKO Ferroseed after Stealth Rock and also lets Cacturne OHKO Tangrowth after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of spikes with HP Fire.

    Either way they need to move out of HP.
  18. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    c/p (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>At a glance, it is difficult to justify the use of Cacturne in the RU metagame. With so many potent Grass-types available for use, it hardly seems wise to handicap yourself with a Pokemon like Cacturne. However, despite its appearance, Cacturne is actually quite unique in what it offers. Due to Cacturne's high offensive stats and powerful STAB Sucker Punch, it is one of the tier's best offensive Spikes users, capable of threatening a variety of common Pokemon in order to set up entry hazards. To add to this, Cacturne is also able to apply significant offensive pressure to both Kabutops and Cryogonal, the most common and effective Rapid Spin users of the tier, allowing it to effectively prevent its entry hazards from being removed on its own. What's more, its unique typing, complemented by its useful ability in Water Absorb, makes it a very effective choice for offensively-inclined teams, checking threatening Pokemon such as Slowking and Substitute + Calm Mind Uxie, as well as comfortably switching into bulky Water-types. However, Cacturne's lack of natural bulk means that it is heavily reliant on its resistances to take hits of any kind, meaning that it often struggles to switch in and can be forced out just as easily. What's more, being as slow as it is, Cacturne relies heavily on Sucker Punch to handle offensive threats, making it a very prediction-heavy Pokemon in many situations. While Cacturne is by no means a Pokemon that can be thrown on any team, it does retain a significant niche in the RU metagame and should be taken into consideration when building offensive teams.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Lonely / Adamant
    evs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Cacturne's high offensive stats, unique typing, and potent movepool, it makes an excellent offensive Spikes user. As Cacturne is capable of threatening a variety of Pokemon, ranging from frail sweepers to common defensive pivots, it is capable of finding opportunities to set up Spikes as the opposing Pokemon are forced to switch out. One of Cacturne's most effective tools in threatening Pokemon is its STAB Sucker Punch, which allows it to pick off a variety of frail faster Pokemon. Moreover, Sucker Punch applies significant pressure upon the best Rapid Spin users in the tier, Kabutops and Cryogonal, dealing major damage to the former and OHKOing the latter almost always with a Life Orb. Seed Bomb provides Cacturne with a safe STAB move capable of immediately threatening the Water-types it checks, as well as preventing Kabutops from switching into Cacturne and threatening to either spin away its entry hazards or KO with Stone Edge. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire allows Cacturne to round off its coverage, punishing Steel-types such as Escavalier and Durant as well as defensively-inclined Grass-types, most notably Tangrowth. On the other hand, while Substitute leaves Cacturne vulnerable to Steel-types, it does allow Cacturne to stay in on a variety of Pokemon that would otherwise force it out, as well as minimizing the risk associated with using Sucker Punch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Cacturne's offensive presence and bulk while providing it enough Speed to outpace minimally invested Lanturn, allowing Cacturne to KO with Seed Bomb before being weakened by a potential Ice Beam or Thunder Wave. (if you dont decide to put the hp evs in speed as per oglemi's post above, i would mention that speed creeping could be beneficial because theres a bunch of stuff that aims for this benchmark that cacturne would like to outspeed such as golurk and offensive tangrowth) However, when using Hidden Power Fire, it is worth considering investment in Special Attack in order to better pressure the Steel- and Grass-types it targets. An investment of 68 EVs guarantees Cacturne will OHKO the standard Escavalier after Stealth Rock damage, and with 112 EVs, Cacturne is capable of KOing both Ferroseed and offensive Tangrowth after damage from Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes. In terms of item choice, the extra power of Life Orb is somewhat of a necessity when utilizing Hidden Power Fire in order for it to inflict significant damage upon its primary targets, while Leftovers's guaranteed recovery is largely preferable in conjunction with Substitute in order to set up more comfortably. However, that is not to say that Cacturne is restricted to these items, as it is capable of utilizing a reasonably wide arrangement of alternative options in order to allow to better fulfill certain roles. Some of the most pertinent of these choices are Dark Gem, which provides Cacturne a useful "middle ground" option between Leftovers and Life Orb, whose boost in power can allow it to better check certain sweepers, and Occa Berry, which allows it to switch more safely into Slowking and Grass-types without risking being blown out of the water by Fire Blast or Hidden Power Fire, respectively. Should the necessity to hit Normal-types be particularly high, Low Kick and Superpower both hit such Pokemon while retaining coverage against Steel-types, but it should be noted that critical targets of Hidden Power Fire, namely Escavalier and Durant, aren't hit particularly hard by this. Moreover, Swords Dance can be used in order to put even further pressure on the opponent to play around Sucker Punch and give Cacturne a window to sweep late-game, but opposing priority users make it rather difficult for it to do so.</p>

    <p>In terms of partners, Cacturne has a variety of Pokemon that help make its job a little bit easier. Choice Scarf Emboar is a perfect example of this, offering a strong switch-in to support-based Grass-types capable of "absorbing" their Sleep Powders and Spores nicely, in addition to baiting bulky Water-types that Cacturne can in turn capitalize on. Moreover, while Cacturne is more than capable of setting up Spikes alongside several common entry hazard users, it is placed in a stalemate position in doing so that can often lead to both sides getting up all their entry hazards of choice. This makes having a spinner highly encouraged, and offensively speaking, Kabutops is the best fit for such a role, offering a solid switch-in to difficult Pokemon such as Entei and providing further offensive pressure on the opponent. However, Water-types as a whole are solid partners for Cacturne, providing good defensive synergy and forming a classic Fire / Water / Grass core, and if hazards are not an issue, then Kabutops can very well be substituted for an alternative Water-type. Omastar and Samurott both prove excellent examples of alternatives, with the former similarly capitalizing on Entei through Shell Smash and the latter acting as an effective wall breaker to break up defensive cores. Lastly, while Cacturne is fairly self-sufficient in maintaining its own entry hazards against the spinners of the tier, Rotom is a very helpful teammate, offering a solid offensive presence capable of capitalizing on Cacturne's Spikes, a useful resist to Bug-, Flying-, and Fighting-type attacks, and the ability to spinblock, deterring the opponent from attempting to Rapid Spin. (i would mention that rotom is the best choice to spinblock kabutops which cacturne isnt as good at dealing with, as opposed to something like golurk that offers similar resistances)</p>


    [Other Options]

    <p>While Cacturne actually posseses a fairly expansive movepool, this is largely overshadowed by the very similar Shiftry, whose extra Speed gives it the advantage in a sweeping role under most conditions, namely through both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. For this reason, Cacturne is generally restricted to be used as a Spikes setter in order for it to avoid being outclassed. However, Cacturne's low Speed does benefit in a Trick Room setting, where its high Attack and Special Attack, excellent coverage, and resistances to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks makes it a fully capable Trick Room sweeper. Additionally, a set utilizing Destiny Bond alongside Custap Berry is an interesting tactic for eliminating problematic Pokemon, but this does require significant maneuvering and knowledge of how well Cacturne can take certain hits in order to be utilized to its fullest potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While outright preventing Cacturne from fulfilling its role as a Spikes setter is difficult, as it is capable of pressuring most conventional responses to entry hazards rather well, several Pokemon can simply threaten it offensively. Fire-types, especially ones like Entei and Emboar that can handle Sucker Punch well, are problematic for Cacturne, as it cannot effectively prevent them from switching in while they can OHKO with their STAB attacks in return. Offensively inclined Steel-types, such as Aggron and Klinklang, can switch into most of Cacturne's arsenal safely and proceed to either set up on it or outright KO it with their STAB moves. Although they don't particularly enjoy Life Orb Hidden Power Fire, bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss are more than capable of switching into Cacturne and can cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. While Pokemon like Hitmonlee and Primeape don't take Seed Bomb very well, they are otherwise fairly safe responses to Cacturne, resisting Sucker Punch and capable of threatening it with the prospect of a powerful Close Combat. Finally, offensive Substitute users, such as Sceptile, Rotom-F, and Scolipede, are capable of playing around Cacturne's Substitute with proper prediction, forcing it into a 50-50 prediction scenario.</p>


    GP APPROVED 2/2
  19. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    Ok, I moved the HP EVs into SpA, mentioned in AC how they should be invested in Speed when not running HP Fire, and implemented c_l's GP chek, thanks everyone :) Unless there is something I missed or a somebody wants to review the 3-ish sentences altered / added through recent updates, I suppose this is good for upload.
  20. Oglemi

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