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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Feb 24, 2011.

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  1. MapleSandwich

    MapleSandwich

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    I like how wide of a range of ideas this could lead to. Would we encourage Baton Pass, with a Suction Cups reciever? Would we encourage annoying, with a Sub/TWave/Confuse Ray/Headbutt Poison Heal/Serene Grace mon? Would we encourage heavy recoil use, with more Rock Head users, or perhaps using type-resist berries to allow Pokemon to serve as checks for different Pokemon? (e.g. Occa lets you live Mence's Fire Blast to KO back, but Passho lets you live Sazandora's Surf and KO that instead). By no means an all inclusive list, I'd like to see what others think it could be used for.

    Also, yeah, Momentum needs to stay in the limelight. So far this gen, momentum is proving nearly impossible to keep, with all the U-Turn/Volt Changers and Priority moves. Every good match comes down to a chess-like play style, with beginning game, middle game, and end game. No sweeps seem to happen until it's past mattering, at end game. I miss seeing early-game wallbreakers flourishing.
  2. Mektar

    Mektar

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    That's why the creative prosess would be filled to the brim with heated debates on how the CAP should be balanced. Eliminating failure without making the Pokemon too cheap is a very difficult thing to do, but Smogon has the collective brainpower to pull it off. And if not, we can do the Perfect Enemy thing. It seems fairly similar.
  3. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    I noticed that some people are saying that you can't make a momentum pokemon because any other pokemon can do that. but it's not limited to gaining momentum, it could completely smash your opponent momentum while gaining momentum at the same time, or gaining momentum quickly enough that you can catch up even if you are behind. there are several way's make a momentum pokemon, it's not too vague. I think that there is much to be learned about competitive battling through this avenue.
  4. domeface

    domeface

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    Physical moves aren't common...?
  5. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Well there are a bunch of decent concepts at this point. Here are the ones (by submission order) I think should be considered for this CAP. I'm still holding to the notion of keeping our first concept "simple and realistic." The metagame isn't fully complete yet so trying to work with complex strategies wouldn't do much good when things can change in the near future. Momentum is a popular and excellent idea/concept that I think we should hold off on using at this time because of this early phase. I have been thinking it over about which one's I would like to see being supported as well.

    I think auto-weather is fine without any of the speed boosting abilities really. No Drizzle and Swift Swim is working well and I think it will stay that way. Maybe the other weather conditions will be submitted to the same fate. Whatever happens, a weather counter will always be a relevant concept. A lack of a true all around weather counter (the one's around are more of checks) makes it hard to build a team around checks who are not OU material in the first place.

    This keep's with Reachzero's proposal to keep the "firsts" in mind to a T and would tackle the Team Reveal controversy head on. A high one on the list.

    The inclusion of not being killed off by certain means makes this more safer than the Assassin concept obviously.

    Sorry for "making" you edit the original concept anyways. But same difference, let's see if we can curb this hax situation some. Whether it's the simulator (I think so...) or just plain luck these days, actually counting on that critical hit or freeze to happen is quite ridiculous honestly. Reachzero is right about Cyclohm using Shield Dust, but there might be other ways besides that ability to help out.

    While momentum should be saved for a more developed metagame, this concept can be done now. It's related somewhat and would be a very good member of a team. Misplays are a reality and losing abruptly by it is not a nice feeling.

    Again, sorry for making you change the original by opinion, but this a way more realistic and productive concept. There are two reasons why I think just poison stall wouldn't be a good idea. First, this new metagame is just too fast and hits too hard for toxic stalling to do much good. Second, there are some strategies of course, like SubRoost which can work, but we already have some Pokemon that can do it decently enough. I for one support residual damage because it sounds real fun to watch your opponents HP go down in a bunch of incriments. This helps set up for sweeping.

    Actually, I remember back in the old days when I played Pokemon Stadium. It was fun as hell to use the rental Venasaur and use Leech Seed, Poisonpowder, then switch to someone who had Confuse Ray. Creeper Combos they called them back then. Of course, Fidgit already lays all the entry hazards down, but he doesn't completely have all the tools for chipping away at all opponents every turn. This is actually one of my more favorite concepts.

    Haha, sorry for this one as well. However, your updated concept is much more open and could include Trick Room obviously. I wonder if a slower Pokemon that is not a wall can hold up to the faster ones? Druddigon for example is overshadowed by his Dragon brethren for his Speed. He has a couple options to bypass it (Glare, Sucker Punch) but they don't do much to bring him to the level of the others. Can we make sure the same thing will not happen to the new CAP?
  6. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Just sayin, but part of Druddigon's problem is it's abysmal BST of 485. Maybe if he had a full 600 BST to work with he'd be comparable, but he doesn't.

    Imagine him with base 145 Atk and base 167 HP for instance to fill up the rest of his stats.

    Base 145 Atk, 167/90/90 Defenses, AND Dragon Typing? Sign me up! That'd be worth the lack of SpA and Spe any day.

    I still say momentum, but the Molasses idea doesn't seem half bad if it wasn't for the fact that Pokemon has thrown this idea a lot at us. Most namely Tyranitar, who can easily function as a slow, bulky Pokemon with huge mixed power; of which might even become its flagship set this Gen (or at least close). Eelektross and Tangrowth are other decent examples in their own elements, too.
  7. -Terywj-

    -Terywj-

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    I think something along the Momentum concept would work really well, even if it may be a bit early in the metagame.
  8. Dummy007

    Dummy007

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    I'm a fan of DetroitLolcat's Second Chance concept, as it allows for a lot of wiggle room in the end while keeping a straightforward objective in mind. I also like all the momentum concepts, as long as we set a definition for momentum before we get too far into it.

    (For anyone who cares, I also edited my idea a little, mostly so that it no longer revolves around Drizzle.)
  9. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    In defense of my concept, I will agree that most good, existing OU Pokemon can achieve momentum on their own (I covered this in the 'Justification' and 'Explanation' sections of my post), and, indeed, any Pokemon that comes out of the CAP process will be able to achieve momentum in-battle based on its various attributes (typing, stats, etc.) or otherwise be completely useless. However, the current metagame lacks a Pokemon specifically designed with momentum in mind. When you read a RMT, you'll be hard-pressed to see something like "I have Blissey on the team so that I can build momentum off of special attackers" because teambuilders don't necessarily think in terms of momentum when constructing teams. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to see the word "momentum" in an RMT at all, as the concept is really only considered within actual battles (see how the word "momentum" is peppered throughout any good warstory).
    This is pretty much what I think the community should be exploring with this concept, in a nutshell. A CAP based off of this concept should be one that allows a player to consider how momentum plays into the teambuilding process. However, the competitive Pokemon community doesn't really have a firm grasp on what "momentum" is or how a team's synergy relates to its ability to gain and maintain momentum. This sort of stuff will be fleshed out in the early stages of the process, should the community choose this concept, and should be able to give us a firmer grasp on one of the more intriguing aspects of competitive Pokemon, as well as a solid direction for the actual construction of the CAP itself.

    tl;dr, I don't think this concept is too vague or redundant. No one puts Gliscor on a team because of its momentum-building or shifting capabilities; they put it there to be a reliable check to Fighting types and Excadrill. If the concept seems too vague, it's because it attempts to base a Pokemon around a role that few ever consider when putting teams together, which I think would have a profound teaching effect on the community.
  10. DetroitLolcat

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    I think Momentum is a great concept, but there's one problem with it. Gamefreak did it first. Whether you know it or not, momentum is what drives the entire game, whether it's offensive, defensive, or counter momentum. You (perhaps unknowingly) stick every pokemon on your team in order to accomplish a task. That task is to either strengthen your team or weaken your opponent's, usually the latter. By weakening your opponent's team, the opponent is being forced further and further into a defensive position, which allows you to achieve a win condition. That is the very definition of momentum. If you're checking an opponent, they you're regaining momentum by forcing a switch. Every pokemon on your team fits the concept of momentum, because momentum is just putting the situation in your advantage.
  11. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    @DetroitLolcat: There is one problem with your logic: The .... people, 5000+ years ago when the first competitive game was created, did it first! Momentum is part of any competitive game where the aim is to outsmart your opponent and win under whatever winning condition. Momentum is just a term for how smoothly the game is going for you or your opponent.
    That being said, I dont believe GF made pokemon with momentum in mind.
    And I also don't feel that there are many players who actively look at pokemon and at the teambuilding process with momentum in mind and think of how momentum can be obtained and held as good as possible.
    Sure, you may think of strengths of a pokemon and who can counter who, or even think of strategies, but momentum is really a little different than just that.
    For that reason, I think the momentum concept is good in that it can teach us to look at competitive pokemon differently, specifically how to make momentum work in your favor far more controlled and directly.
    I believe the exploration of the gameplay mechanic momentum in the game pokemon is going to teach us a lot about how to directly influence momentum in games and how to build teams looking specifically at momentum, for one. If not more.

    That being said.


    AK, like I also said above, for the most part, I think your concept is great.
    It's only the lack of direction for the actual pokemon that I dislike.
    Throughout this reply, you yourself also state that pokemon gain momentum when played to their strengths, for instance, switching in a Blissey to a special attacker or a Gliscor to a fighting pokemon. You also state that most good OU pokemon can achieve momentum on their own. You also mention in your quote that this can be done through various fashion, i.e. "Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn?"

    But you must admit that most of these good OU pokemon that are capable of scoring momentum are only capable of doing that through the niches they excel at. A frail offensive pokemon can scare the shit out of a defensive pokemon that can do nothing to touch that offensive pokemon, so a switch is forced. However, that frail offensive pokemon is probably not going to counter another offensive pokemon by soaking up it's hits and forcing the opponent's pokemon to switch since he can't do anything to it anyway. (If that makes sense).

    What I'm saying is, if you want us to make a pokemon specifically made with momentum in mind, that still doesn't tell us what you want us to make.
    If you want a pokemon that can very often net you momentum, I believe there are already a few examples of that. Kyogre, Dialga, Palkia, Arceus, etc. They can scare the shit out of just anything OU by offensive and defensive prowess, etc.
    Seeing as we don't want CAP1 to end up in Ubers, being able to score momentum of just about anything does sound a little uber-characteristic-ish.

    All I'm saying is, if we are done discussing anything and everything there is to discuss about momentum, I still don't believe we can actually go to the typing stage or whatever stage actually, and know what to build. Is it a pokemon that can try to score momentum through defensive/countering/offensive/utility/scouting/pivoting/leading options? Or perhaps a combination of these without ending up in ubers? Perhaps, through discussion, we may even find different niches that gain us momentum, that can be added to this list. But having this pokemon be capable of all those things at once sounds Uber. So then we have to pick what kind of pokemon we actually want to build from this list.

    And that's where I believe your concept is vague. Don't get me wrong, I believe that discussing momentum is very good and the concept in that regard is good. But then what? What are we actually going to build once we know everything there is to know about momentum?
    Because even if we can probably dig deeper into momentum, common sense dictates that we already know well enough that momentum is done through playing to a pokemon strengths and making use of specific situation. (You still can't switch Gliscor into a fighting type when it's spamming Banded Ice Punches, for instance, even though it's a strength of his to switch into fighting types, the situation does not allow for him to switch in).
    Designing a pokemon without any specific direction, but one that can just regardless of situation and strengths gain momentum just sounds Uber to me.

    That's why I like Slowing the Pace as a concept more. It's a variant on your idea in that it still wants us to dig into momentum as a gameplay mechanic, the discussion are probably the same in that regard, but when we actually get to building the pokemon, he also says what he wants the pokemon be able to do with momentum. He wants to slow it down. How we actually do that, no idea, but at least it's more focused and gives us direction when we actually get to building the pokemon.
  12. doominic77

    doominic77

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    Name: The Eater of Dreams
    General Description: A pokemon that makes use of the rarely used move Dream Eater.
    Justification:
    • Let’s a currently useless move have some use.
    • Promotes diversity in the CAP metagame.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • With a reliable way to use it will Dream Eater be too powerful?
    • Is sleep just too unpredictable to work with?
    • Could diversity be a bad thing?
    • Could Dream Eater heal too much health?

    Explanation: Let’s face it, Dream Eater is at the moment one of the least used and most useless moves in the game. Why? Who knows, it could be the unreliability of sleep, Sleep Clause or is it another reason. However Dream Eater still however has a base power of 100, and it allows the user to heal 50% of the damage done (correct me if I'm wrong). That’s like using a 50 base damage attack on your opponent and healing the amount done. The only thing stopping Dream Eater from taking the metagame over is the fact that you need sleep active on the opponent to attack them successfully. If there was a reliable way to set up sleep Dream Eater would become one of the best moves in the entire metagame.
  13. Sirfunchalot

    Sirfunchalot

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    I changed the idea mostly because poison stalling is too narrow and it's better for a CAP to have a wide range of being able to cripple things, and I felt your suggestion was going in the completely right direction, granted your original justification for it wasn't right, but the underlying idea was, so I went with it. But I do appreciate you thinking highly of the concept, I think it would be really fun to shuffle around an opponents team and gradually wear them down with hazards and status. The most fun I ever had in a match was sweeping my opponent with Skarmory by shuffling everything with whirlwind into my 3 layers of spikes, 2 layers of toxic spikes, and stealth rock.
  14. Roserade Raider

    Roserade Raider

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    Just my 2 cents: I like the Momentum concept because it spotlights a part of the game that most battlers just take for granted without really ever exploring what it means. Momentum is so much more than just sweeping or laying down hazards, and I think this concept could be pretty interesting.

    I agree, though, that weather should be left to a later CAP as the metagame is nowhere near settling down to any reasonably permanent set of guidelines.
  15. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    I think momentum in a game is more of forcing your opponent to think less about his own plans and more to react to what you're doing. To force your opponent to react, not act, and to allow you to be one step ahead. Ways that Pokemon can gain momentum don't just include being especially powerful, or carrying U-turn/Volt Change. They can also gain momentum by being unpredictable. Your opponent guesses you have a specially oriented set, and they switch in Blissey hoping to gain momentum. However, you Swords Dance, forcing them to switch to a more physically-bulky Pokemon. Momentum is even gained by using Protect to scout Choiced moves. By keeping your opponent in an uncomfortable situation, and allowing yourself to dictate the flow of the game, you have momentum. The Pokemon doesn't need to be able to wreck almost any other Pokemon in the game to gain momentum. What it mainly needs to do, in my mind, is force switches.
  16. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    The problem I see with this concept is that it is basically impossible to keep a sleeping Pokemon in (barring RestTalk Gyarados). So, to make this concept work, you would either a) have to make Sleep Clause go away, or b) have a sleep move, Shadow Tag, and Dream Eater. Either way, this concept, if it succeeds, will be broken, unless the pokemon is something like

    CAP 1
    Shadow Tag
    ~Dream Eater
    ~Hypnosis
    ~Hidden Power Fighting
    ~
  17. Donny Mae.

    Donny Mae.

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    (I hope im doing this right :/ )

    Name:
    Last Stand

    General Description:
    This pokemon (through stats or movepool) thrives as a last resort pokemon, but is a dead-weight in early game.

    Justification:
    Pokemon has many great late game cleaners, such as Starmie. However, remember in GSC when you've destroyed your opponents whole team...and his last pokemon is a Curselax. It seems that in fast paced metagame that is Gen V, no pokemon exists such as Curselax. Suicune is rarely seen, if at all. The aim of this concept is to see if such a pokemon can be useful in the offensive metagame of Gen V.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • Will CaP 1 be able to survive the incredibly hard hitting pokemon that dominate the Gen V metagame?
    • Will CaP 1 be too powerful during late game?
    • Will CaP 1 be too one dimensional on every team, or should it have an different, albeit worse, function? (eg. wishmence).
    Explanation: The key to CaP 1's success will probably be in it's ability to accumulate boosts after the heavy hitters are gone. Moves such as bulk-up and calm mind will probably be it's bread and butter. A defensive, yet offensive type please not water or it would be like suicune :( would be necessary for CaP 1 to function correctly. An ability such as immunity would stop the toxi-stalling CaP 1 to death, but an ability such as Battle/Shell Armour would stop crits.
  18. SupremeDirt

    SupremeDirt

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    I like the idea of Last Stand, though that might mostly have to do with my recent interest in Gen 2.
  19. ChippyYYZ

    ChippyYYZ

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    I found the Momentum concept pretty cool at first, but as has been pointed out, it lacks direction. If momentum is acquired by a Pokémon by playing to its strengths (eg. throwing Blissey against a special attacker), then a Momentum CAP would be described as

    "A Pokémon that has a certain role (special sweeper, guessing game inducer, sun staller...) in the metagame and can fulfill that role reliably and effectively."

    This could be the premise for every CAP that has ever existed or will exist, as well as every OU Pokémon in the game. So rather than use the momentum concept, which could theoretically wind up as anything from Collossoil to Blissey, I would have to recommend a different concept. However, since momentum does apply to every Pokémon, we can still keep it in mind as we do CAP 1 to learn more about it in addition to the CAP's concept. We can even examine momentum with every CAP we do.

    That said, I like the Venusaur of the Hail and the Lead concepts the best (both of which can be used to examine momentum).
  20. NTT

    NTT

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    I originally submit this concept for CAP11, but received literally zero feedback on it so I have no idea how it will be received this time round. Here goes anyway;

    Name: Back to Basics

    General Description: A pokemon that can consistently remove the effects of items and/or abilities from a game, though not necessarily both at once.

    Justification: In today's competitive metagames, a pokemon's viability can be defined by their ability, potentially making or breaking them. Similarly certain types of movesets just wouldn't exist without the introduction of items. This CAP would aim to explore how the current metagame would look if it was stripped down to it's most basic competitive fundaments; Effective use of a pokemon's stats and movepools, and team synergy.

    Questions to be Answered;
    •How dependent are pokemon in OU on their abilities and the ability to equip themselves with items?
    •When the reliability of an ability/item is at risk, would previously aggressive pokemon begin to be seen playing more conservative sets, and vice-versa?
    •Would previously unviable/outclassed pokemon find new niches in the OU metagame if their threats, or superior counterparts, were stripped of key advantages?
    •Would balanced teams begin to rise in usage if the features integral to a team or team member's success could be compromised at any moment?
    •Would the predominance of weather teams be lessened if the means to abuse this weather could be compromised at any moment?

    Explanation: As mentioned before, in the beginning pokémon was a game centered around making the most of your team member's stats and moves, because that was "all there was". With so many other factors affecting how a pokemon can be played or played against, these two areas are no longer the absolute fundaments they once were. While both are still of critical importance, a pokemon's ability can make a seemingly inferior poke a far superior option to the point where one poke is left in complete obscurity. The potential risk of losing one's ability may not be enough to bring a pokemon out of obscurity, but may make them an option worth considering once more.
  21. Typhlosion

    Typhlosion

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    Name: Achilles' Heel

    General Description: This pokemon will be an offensive powerhouse, with no checks at all, save for 2 or 3 pokemon that enjoy a fair amount of usage. These 2 or 3 pokemon will be indisputable counters that are the only thing that can stop this offensive powerhouse.

    Justification: The main reason Salamence was banned last generation is because people argued that there were no solid counters that were very useful outside of stopping Mence. This CAP will aim to see if that argument was valid in if there were a counter to this great pokemon that were viable oustide of countering CAP1, it would not be considered broken.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Could Mence (and other similar cases) been non-broken if they had viable counters?
    • Will CAP1 just be too powerful regardless if it had solid counters?
    • Are a few solid counters enough reason to keep a ridiculously powerful pokemon OU?
    • Can the fact that these pokemon can so easily stop CAP1 be enough to skyrocket them to the top of the usage charts?
    Explanation: This pokemon will probably encounter pokemon who resist it's stabs and could safely oustpeed and kill it, but those few pokemon will be the only one who can. (E.g. Scarftar to Latios last gen, Gliscor to Doryuzzu this gen, etc) The CAP aims to see if this kind of relationship could balance such an offensive powerhouse.
  22. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

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    You mean Heatran? Moltres? Shedinja? Volcorona? Excadrill?
  23. NeoSeth

    NeoSeth

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    I actually find this idea very interesting. However, the problems I see arising are that this Pokemon will force just about everyone to run these counters, which will lead to over-centralization. When picking these indisputable counters, I think it'd be very important to pick very different counters. I.e, Swampert is a perfect defensive counter while Scizor is a perfect offensive counter. This way, both offensive and defensive teams can deal with the threat properly, without forcing them to hinder their over play-style. It's also important to consider which Pokemon would be a perfect counter to this sweeper in regards to their own counters, who would probably be run alongside "Achille's Heel". Let's use Scizor and Swampert from before. If this Pokemon can only be stopped by Scizor, you can slap Magnezone on your team and Scizor becomes less of a threat. Or Gyarados, who can set up on almost anything Scizor does. Then there's Swampert. Nattorei doesn't care about anything Swampert does, and can set-up on or KO Swampert easily. If the counters to the CAP can be too easily disposed of, or too easily allow the opponent other ways to turn the match in his favor (Gain momentum *winkwink*) then the CAP will still be broken. I.e, how Garchomp was easily able to remove the threat of Ice Shard Pokemon with Yache Berry.

    I personally really like the Momentum idea. Exploring that concept would be a great exercise, and I feel that the concept is outlined well-enough. Once we all got down to discussing it, I'm sure we could pinpoint exactly what we need. I feel like this Pokemon would have to be very versatile, but unable to do much at once. You'd have to tailor it to gain momentum specifically for your team, sacrificing a lot of options to get what you need.
  24. ShyGuy1221

    ShyGuy1221

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    Like what ssbbm said, the only real way for this concept to work is if the pokemon had a trapping abillity or move, a sleep inducing move, and Dream Eater. I don't think much creativity to be had here.
    In the 5th Gen Concept Theorymoning thread, I came up with an concept that had the exact same name but was different in design. I will refrain from posting my concept because I want to save it for CaP2. As for the concept at hand, I feel that making a CaP that is greatly over powered and can only be taken out by a few things is one of the last things we want to try right now. Many of the CaPs in the last generation were vastly over powered, but the last CaP was the first one in a long while that wasn't unnecessarily powerful. If we make the new CaP1 a beast with very few checks, I feel we would almost be taking a step backwards as a community.
  25. Typhlosion

    Typhlosion

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    Isn't the basis for a lot of teams taking out your sweeper's counter so that it can sweep? I don't see how this could be much different. Also, I meant to make it understood that there is no way this theoretical sweeper could possibly get past these counters by itself.
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