Why not just go with Judgement then? It's a BP 100 move of any type (essentially) and it skips the whole need to play with IVs. Weather Ball also can be nice except the Pokemon who usually summon weather wouldn't be weak to the Weather Ball type. Still an idea. Also, we can always make a new move that always gets STAB or something. Heck, there's even the Doom Desire exclusive ???? typing which hits everything neutrally by itself.
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter beej
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wow even though I know its so early into this project it looks like cap 10 is going to be smooookin'! hehe I love when he says that in Mask.
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Hi I'm new here, just coming over from Narutofan Forums and I thought I would throw in my two cents.
- To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?
- Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
- What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?
- Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?
This pokemon should have flexible, balanced stats, a varied movepool that allows for super effective hits on a wide variety of pokes, and a typing that is either very neutral defensively or able to be altered somehow (think bronzong not kecleon). A slight defensive bias is ideal, because offensive pokes often have difficulty switching in, and a defensive build is generally more flexible for repeated countering. Defensiveness also keeps this poke from becoming a sweeper as opposed to a counter, which is something that we must be wary of, considering we are clearly going to make this guy unpredictable. I think that the best example of a utility counter in the meta right now is bronzong. It has weak offensive stats that ensure that it isn't a credible threat, but a varied movepool and a flexible and (slightly) changeable weakness set that allows it to be altered for specific countering. I think going slightly more offensive than bronzong would be a good idea though. For those of you that don't want it to be able to counter, say, Dragonite and Heatran at the same time, you could do that by making it advisable to use a specific move on it. Giving it good support options and a recovery move accomplishes this pretty well, but there are other ways.
I know that, but I never figured it could go as low as 60, as I've never seen it go below 64 or so in the team builder. It would only make sense that it require extremely specific IV combinations.
Even so, Technician is an offensive ability, and therefore has no place on such a defensive Pokemon. One must also consider if we forgo Multitype, there's still addressing the idea that a definitive defensive typing is incapable of countering as wide a variety of OU threats as this concept would lead us to believe.
To clarify, no combination of typing will allow it to counter anything without being insurmountably overpowered. If we gave it Ghost/Dark with great defenses, it would render most OU walls obselete, counter more at once than it was intended to, and not fall in line with the concept's general idea. If we gave it anything else, it would still have a glaring weakness and not fall in line with the general concept.
If this Pokemon's going to work, it has to be able to adapt to the different threats it needs to counter. The only question that remains is how.
I have to admit I like multitype a lot more than the HP idea. Hidden power sounds like a big waste of time, and it would take forever to make each set of this pokemon to only counter one pokemon at a time. We can't make it that inconvienient.
@SJCrew: you DO recognize that there are other typing combos that result in no weaknesses right? Also, it doesn't have to have NO weaknesses. It could instead be bronzong-like in that its weaknesses change based on ability.
Thick Fat, Levitate, Flash Fire, etc. can certainly be used here to give us something with interesting weakness sets. There is of course always the option of a new ability but I like avoiding that when possible.
The technician isn't so bad because it is an "offensive" ability, but simply because it is a convoluted way of giving it weak attacks. There are plenty of attacks of similar base power that accomplish much the same thing. Its not like we would give it ONLY Hidden Power + recovery and support, although I suppose we could.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but one way of ensuring that its coverage isn't too good would be to give it a complicated egg move/ "event move" list and therefore restrict good combos like boltbeam or shadowsphere etc. This isn't something that I am particularly good at though so I don't know if this would work.
Thick Fat, Levitate, Flash Fire, etc. can certainly be used here to give us something with interesting weakness sets. There is of course always the option of a new ability but I like avoiding that when possible.
The technician isn't so bad because it is an "offensive" ability, but simply because it is a convoluted way of giving it weak attacks. There are plenty of attacks of similar base power that accomplish much the same thing. Its not like we would give it ONLY Hidden Power + recovery and support, although I suppose we could.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but one way of ensuring that its coverage isn't too good would be to give it a complicated egg move/ "event move" list and therefore restrict good combos like boltbeam or shadowsphere etc. This isn't something that I am particularly good at though so I don't know if this would work.
Access to all types make it a versatile pokemon. I can imagine at least one set for each type.
Yes that is true, but in battle it restricts it. For example if you have the spooky plate equipped for all extensive purposes in that battle it is a ghost type pokemon, reducing its versatility in battle. While if we go with a different tactic it can be adapted to fight any threat from within the battle expected or not.
People have been saying that Multitype would limit CAP10 too much by making it unable to benefit from Leftovers recovery or a Choice Scarf boost. The way around this is to make CAP10 have even better defensive stats. If we are going to go the revenge killer route with it, we could give it very high Speed as well. "High Speed" as in Deoxys-level, letting it outspeed even +1 Dragons. And if it is to be a competent revenge-killer, or even defensive counter, CAP10's attacking stats will need to, at very least, not completely suck, since CAP10 will have to be able to threaten with attacks as well as with status in order to counter Taunt users. Any way you look at it, CAP10 will have to have a high BST and BSR in order to be able to counter everything.
Yes, it is. My point was that you don't necessarily have to counter a single Pokemon, but rather a chunk of similar Pokemon. A mixed set on CAP10 needs to be less effective and miss the necessary OHKOs to counter the target Pokemon, thereby forcing it into going either special or physical based on the desired threats. This can best be accomplished with its stats and move pool.Dr.Mank said:
Being immune to/absorbing a Pokemon's primary attacking option is a big deal. I just don't think Trace fits into the utility counter design, as it counters numerous Pokemon that are entirely dissimilar to each other all at once. (Vaporeon, Salamence, Gyarados, Heatran, Jolteon, etc.)Dr.Mank said:
Okey, So it should be able to counter a chunk of similar pokemons, thats why it should have acces to multiple Pyssical/Special moves. Bolt Beem etc.
And it shouldn't have trace because it counter unsimilar pokemons, who all happen to have a move that absorbs their main STAB. Yup no similarity.
Okey sorry, I do get your point, but with allmost no coverage with each moveset it can't realy counter all those. It will be a shuckle against those threats if it doesn't have a move to damage them. Something to counter Salamence would be useless agains heatran as HP Ice... come on.
For those of you considering Multitype, consider this:
1: If we use Multitype, and want to be able to counter any threat [Plausably], but not all at once, odds are, we'll need a decent STAB move for every single type. You're not going to counter Scizor as well without a Fire-type move, nor is Swampert going down without a Grass-type move.
And don't say it's not going to get a decent move of each type. That would defy the point of Multi-type, because some types would be 100% useless without a decent STAB. Don't get me started on Judgement either.
2: This gives CAP10 move coverage that isn't seen... outside of Mew, who's Uber. So, we'd be throwing the ability of an Uber, and a movepool of an Uber, onto the same pokemon.
3: Because the Multi-type CAP 10 could literally be anything, there is no way to prepare your team against it. As a result, especially with type coverage [And if we give this thing a useable attack, and speed stat, which we will need to do, to threaten stuff], this CAP will be difficult to counter in it's own right, nothing would be guarenteed to switch in safe.
Ability of an Uber + Movepoll of an Uber + No Way to prepare for it + No 100% counters... sounds like an Uber to me.
There are other ways to go about this CAP othr than slapping Multi-type on it. We just need to not tke the easy, and possibly broken, route.
1: If we use Multitype, and want to be able to counter any threat [Plausably], but not all at once, odds are, we'll need a decent STAB move for every single type. You're not going to counter Scizor as well without a Fire-type move, nor is Swampert going down without a Grass-type move.
And don't say it's not going to get a decent move of each type. That would defy the point of Multi-type, because some types would be 100% useless without a decent STAB. Don't get me started on Judgement either.
2: This gives CAP10 move coverage that isn't seen... outside of Mew, who's Uber. So, we'd be throwing the ability of an Uber, and a movepool of an Uber, onto the same pokemon.
3: Because the Multi-type CAP 10 could literally be anything, there is no way to prepare your team against it. As a result, especially with type coverage [And if we give this thing a useable attack, and speed stat, which we will need to do, to threaten stuff], this CAP will be difficult to counter in it's own right, nothing would be guarenteed to switch in safe.
Ability of an Uber + Movepoll of an Uber + No Way to prepare for it + No 100% counters... sounds like an Uber to me.
There are other ways to go about this CAP othr than slapping Multi-type on it. We just need to not tke the easy, and possibly broken, route.
I agree with Raikaria on Multitype, and there is also the fact of requiring a plat as the held item which to me isn't appealing.
Perhaps we could try to give CAP10 a good typing with as many resistances as possible (Water/Steel and Fire/Steel are two in particular that I like, despite the fact they already exist), and just accept that it won't be able to counter some threats at all (as per my examples, it would be impossible to counter Breloom, Machamp and Heracross). If it can counter, say, even 75% of OU in some way or another (obviously not at the same time), I'd consider that a success.
Perhaps we could try to give CAP10 a good typing with as many resistances as possible (Water/Steel and Fire/Steel are two in particular that I like, despite the fact they already exist), and just accept that it won't be able to counter some threats at all (as per my examples, it would be impossible to counter Breloom, Machamp and Heracross). If it can counter, say, even 75% of OU in some way or another (obviously not at the same time), I'd consider that a success.
Reading bugmaniacbob's post from Page 2, about grouping the different OU Pokémon and how each group needed a certain stat spread to be countered, it made me think on something like Power Trick. You know, like giving it moderately high Defensive Stats and Power Trick (or an ability that auto-triggers that, go figure) so it could be customizable- high defenses to stop sweepers, high offense to threaten walls.
Of course, there are a lot of issues we have to cover in this, but I think it's a good starting point if someone would like to collaborate.
Of course, there are a lot of issues we have to cover in this, but I think it's a good starting point if someone would like to collaborate.
I agree, although it would be cool. Personally, I envision this as a Jirachi-like or Tyranitar-like Pokémon. Not in stats, typing, or anything, but they have a wide movepool and stats that can be tailored for anything. I think Pokémon like that demonstrate Multitype isn't needed in OU, even though it certainly is a convenient way of doing it. I don't see anything wrong with having lots of coverage, though. Again, those Pokémon have insane movepools, and Pokémon like Electivire (heh) and Starmie get insane type coverage. Multitype would definitely make this more effective, but remember, this Pokémon is only getting STAB on one part of its movepool. It's more about being unable to prepare for it that worries me.
One thing about Multitype: How would it work on a Pokemon with a dual type? Are both typings replaced upon equipping a plate? For example, if I have a Fire/Steel Pokemon with Multitype and equip a Splash plate, will it change to pure Water, or Water/Steel? If the answer is unknown, then it's something we will need to address if we are to take Multitype seriously (I see a great potential if it keeps one of the two types).
Multitype doesn't work on duel-typed pokemon, as it changes their type, overall, to the plate's type, to my knowledge.
Besdies, there's enough of an argument for possible brokeness with just mono-multitype, Duel-Multitype, which has 'more potential' would almost certainly be uber.
Anyway, we're starting to poll jump here. Talking about Multitype as per the concept is fine. Talking about Duel-Multitypes is definite polljumping, especially when not related to the concept.
I agree with most of what has been said against multitype. If there was a pokemon with defensive stats to take a super effective hit and speed/offensive stats to threaten it's target with a fantastic movepool and THEN give it the ability of being any type, wouldn't you call it a bulky tank or maybe just Arceus? I fear that's all it would be; Arceus minus a few base stats. Do you really think he'd be OU if he only had base 100 or even 90 stats? Finally, monotyping will allow you to resist a targets STAB (and you will often have to sacrifice your own effective STAB against it to achieve this) but you will not resist their moveset keeping it from being a safe switch-in. I think this would push CAP10 away from being a utility counter and into a different role.
Moving along, I agree with Tanz that to give this poke a solid enough foundation to build in different directions our best approach is to give it a great defensive dual typing that will allow it to counter SOME of the biggest OU threats given the right movepool. Complete customization of type is not possible with any of the concepts suggested so far and monotyping is often (almost always) inferior to a decent dual typing. Additionally, often the only way to have a shot at countering many common OU threats is to have a great dual typing since most powerhouses in OU are there because they are not only powerful but have a great movepool and can hit counters hard. Don't get me wrong, I think the concept of a Utility Counter is do-able, but I am sure we are going to be sorely disappointed if we expect to make ONE pokemon that has the potential to counter ANYTHING. We need to figure out what threats or type of threats this thing needs to have the potential to handle as expecting it to take everything, from DDMence to Heatran to Tyraniboah to Agilgross to Sub Empoleon to CM Latias and on and on, is incredibly unrealistic. I think it would be best to start by compiling a list of the threats in the metagame that are the most difficult to counter and then look for the way that allows it to handle the largest percentage of those threats if built accordingly.
Moving along, I agree with Tanz that to give this poke a solid enough foundation to build in different directions our best approach is to give it a great defensive dual typing that will allow it to counter SOME of the biggest OU threats given the right movepool. Complete customization of type is not possible with any of the concepts suggested so far and monotyping is often (almost always) inferior to a decent dual typing. Additionally, often the only way to have a shot at countering many common OU threats is to have a great dual typing since most powerhouses in OU are there because they are not only powerful but have a great movepool and can hit counters hard. Don't get me wrong, I think the concept of a Utility Counter is do-able, but I am sure we are going to be sorely disappointed if we expect to make ONE pokemon that has the potential to counter ANYTHING. We need to figure out what threats or type of threats this thing needs to have the potential to handle as expecting it to take everything, from DDMence to Heatran to Tyraniboah to Agilgross to Sub Empoleon to CM Latias and on and on, is incredibly unrealistic. I think it would be best to start by compiling a list of the threats in the metagame that are the most difficult to counter and then look for the way that allows it to handle the largest percentage of those threats if built accordingly.
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
Firstly I don't think this CAP will turn out to be too broken.
The way I see it, this CAP will not turn into an Uber. There is no way this CAP will be sweeping through entire teams. If we follow the concept this CAP will be able to counter a very specific group of Pokemon, not entire teams. The same thing applies for walling, and as for support, i dont see how it would fit the concept at all.
Decent STAB for every type - Judgement/Hidden Power. I dont think that is as ridiculous as you make it sound :\ If CAP 10 gets multitype, as deck knight said, it would lose lefties recovery, or the power boost gained from Choice items or Life Orb. The only thing it would gain would be a more powerful STAB. And that helps the concept by giving CAP 10 the power to take down whatever it has been customised for, but not the power to sweep.
And lastly, I think Multitype would be an extremely interesting route to take. The only Pokemon that has it isn't even officially allowed on Shoddy in Ubers. The impact on the OU metagame would be very interesting, and it would be something fresh and new. OU has nothing that even comes close to this.
I think for this concept, we need to decide on what specific field of Pokemon we want to counter first (as explained by reachzero in his concept) before we even start talking about abilities, movepool, etc. This allows us to get a better viewpoint on ability and movepool imo.
Or... Smeargle. Movepool isn't everything. I think #3 isn't much of a concern if we go with different colorings (different graphics would be overdoing it). It's almost too bad we can't let it change what it's STAB is as well as giving it Adaptability to make that STAB even stronger.
It's not, but that's not always gonna matter. Alot of the big threats being bandied about have 4x weaknesses, such as TTar = fighting, Gyarados = electric, Most of the dragons = Ice. For those, just having the ability to outspeed and hit back with almost any power attack makes it easy to defeat them.
Others are frail enough that STAB won't matter and you'll have two options: Pick something neutral to take attacks with or something that resists. In Infernapes case, you could pick water to resist flamethrower and hit back with stab surf, flying to resist close combat and one shot back with air slash, or even ghost for immunity to close combat, ev special defense because you know they can only hit you with flamethrower, and use surf/air slash to KO.
Obviously the above depends on the stats it gets, but that's how an offensive multitype could be used to manipulate how you could counter your opponent.
I think one of the major roadblocks we're running into is how Steel is the only resist to dragon, and there's only 2 ways to put the hurt on dragon.... dragon and ice. Both Steel and Ice are weak to Fire, Steel is weak to ground which is neutral against Ice. Ice in fact only resists Ice. Also, we have no way to give a 4x resist to dragon which is why a true counter has never been found.
We already have fast pokemon who carry 4x effective attacks. We definitely already have water and flying pokemon with STAB attacks. It isn't enough as they cannot switch in with impunity and even if our pokemon had the stats to switch in we already have suicunes and vaporeons etc. When it comes to mence we have pokes with Ice Shard but it doesn't push him down in usage. The way I understood this concept the new pokemon should be able to SHUT DOWN a common threat if that is what it was built to do. It can KO or cripple but it has to get in safely and then still have the ability to handle a +1 monster.
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