CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 12a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[ShravanP]

Accupressure - Allow

It's a fantastic flavor move and is far too unpredictable to prove dangerous. I see no reason to disallow this.

Fake Tears - Disallow

There is not a single other user of either Fake Tears or Metal Sound that has Voodom's combination of speed, power, STAB coverage, and durability. The fastest user is Jolteon, who is admittedly frail and lacks coverage. The second fastest is Espeon, whose durability and coverage are even worse than Jolt's. Here are some calcs to back this up (as usual, 252 SpA Naive LO Voodoom):

+0 Aura Sphere vs. -2 SDef CroCune: 72.3% - 85.4%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. -2 SDef Wish Vaporeon: 76.6% - 90.4%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. -2 SDef Standard Lead Swampert: 84.5% - 99.8%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. -2 SDef Cursepert: 64.9% - 76.5%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. -2 SDef Lead Machamp: 97.1% - 114.4%
+0 Ice Beam vs. -2 SDef Baton Pass Togekiss: 94.7% - 111.8%
+0 Ice Beam vs. -2 SDef Specially Defensive Zapdos: 95% - 112.3%

Basically, this means that none of these guys would ever want to risk staying in at -2 SDef. If your opponent only has one or two Voodoom checks, you can end up scaring them away almost every single time. If we give it Fake Tears, potentially nothing outside of Scarfers would successfully check this.

Destiny Bond - Allow

Likely the best flavor move of the lot and is also competitively viable given Voodoom's speed.

Perish Song - Allow

Voodoom isn't so bulky that it can continually pull off Perish Trapping sets with ease. It's also a good flavor move, so there should be no reason to disallow this.

Mean Look - Allow

Mean Look in and of itself is not at all broken on Voodoom, as it has no business hanging around with checks like Bulky Waters, Togekiss, Scarf Cross, etc. It's also necessary for Perish Trapping.

Baton Pass - Disallow

Again, without Mean Look, Baton Pass will be a great move to have on Voodoom. SubPassing to Kiss or even passing forward an NP from Kiss seem like perfectly viable strategies to employ.

The only thing that might pull it too far away from its concept is BU passing to other physical sweepers, especially Gyarados and Dragonite. In and of itself, Bulk Up might not be that dangerous on Voodoom, especially with just base 85 Atk. But as mentioned above, Bulk Up starts turning sour when paired with Baton Pass on such a speedy pokemon. Togekiss has absolutely zero use for Bulk Up, so Voodoom is better paired with things like Gyarados or Dragonite, both of whom resist its Fighting weakness and greatly appreciate the extra attack and defense. Either of these two that gets passed a Bulk Up can DD on the ensuing switch for a deadly +2/+1/+1 to Atk/Def/Spd. The plethora of other physical attackers will also love getting the boosts.

This is in no way an automatic game breaker, and I'm not so concerned about how strong the strategy is. But I feel that it is strong enough that it might pull Voodoom's PRIMARY role away from being Togekiss' perfect mate. If I can pass Bulk Ups to my Gyara, I will personally feel more inclined to use it for that role rather than pair it up with 'Kiss. All three could very well be on a team together, but the core would end up being GyaraDoom, not TogeDoom.

Mean Look + Baton Pass - Disallow

This has already been covered perfectly by prior arguments in this thread. In short, we will be making the fastest and most offensively gifted trap passer in the whole game. No.

 

[doominic77]

Spikes - Agree

Spikes can help the Toge/Voo Combo beat other pokemon in general. It dosen't particually help with any threats but it is a good move.

Nasty Plot - Strongly Disagree

If Voodoom wants a Special Attack boost he can get it from Togekiss.

Pain Split - Agree

A healing move would be nice. Pain Split is not too overpower and will help the Togekiss/Voodoom combo sweep.

___________________________________________________________________

No one has mentioned it yet but I'd like to propose Trick. Trick could be used instead of CC in some situations to mess with Blissey.

 

[Shnoogle]

Well, the Pokémon does have a lot of needles in him, so Accupressure makes perfect sense.

Snatch is an interesting move, being able to counter Zapdos easier because it can snag Roosts. Also, since many people are against stat up moves besides Snatch it could be an interesting way to overcome that.

Since this Pokémon evolves by a needle to the heart involved with lightning or something I think Perish Song would be an interesting move. It fits in with the Voodoo doll theme.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I agree with most of the general sentiment put forward so far - Mean Look + Baton Pass should be illegal, Swords Dance, Spikes and Nasty Plot aren't taking Voodoom in the right direction, and most of the rest of the moves are OK. I think Baton Pass + Bulk Up should be disallowed - Bulk Up is fine on its own but if you then pass those boosts off once a counter shows up...

 

[Colonel Darren]

Allowed:
Glare. It may be shaky on accuracy, but more paralysis support for Togekiss is always welcome, and would give Kiss a reason to run something other than ThunderWave on a standard Flinchkiss. Also, as stated earlier, it prevents Electvire and Jolteon from coming in for free to threaten the duo.

Baton Pass sans Mean Look. Others have already stated the reasoning behind allowing one but not both on the same set. Perfectly acceptable. Substitute also lets Voodoom give back to Togekiss a nice little toy to hide behind and work her magic with a Baton Pass.

Rapid Spin. We can assume that these two will be switching quite a bit. However, Togekiss will not appreciate landing into Stealth Rock every time it comes in for a quarter health, and I'm sure that Voodoom will not like Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Rapid Spin could help Voodom support them both as well as threatening any Ghosts to come in.

Disallowed:
Swords Dance/Nasty Plot. We don't want Voodoom to be a standalone sweeper. Especially if Voodoom gets the latter, then Togekiss's portion of the partnership is for naught. Completely against these. If Voodoom wants a boost, he should recieve it from Kiss.

Entry Hazards. I'd rather not see Voodoom become just a lead.

Recovery sans Rest/Pain Split. Personally, I would like to see some reliance on Togekiss for reliable recovery. Maybe Voodoom could Rest and have Kiss Heal Bell, and Pain Split is a great flavor move even if it is unreliable. Personally, I'd rather see a Wishpass from Kiss.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hey everyone! Here's what I have to say about what's been brought up so far:

Bulk Up - Allow - A lot of people are over-hyping a Bulk Up set. Bulk Up won't be able to take on the Bulky Waters of the tier, and there's no way that even after one Bulk Up, Voodoom will love to take Swampert's EQ or pretty much any Special Attack thrown at it. Since Close Combat / Superpower on a Bulk Up set would be bad, the next best option would be Low Kick or Cross Chop, both not having nearly enough power to OHKO / 2HKO anything special. Bulk Up can be handy on some variants of Voodoom, don't be mistaken, but is it broken? Does it help Voodoom to a point where it's unfair? No. Can it potentially help defeat Togekiss' counters and/or help Togekiss directly? Depending on the movepool, it's a possibility. In the end, it will most likely end up in a gimmick set.

Taunt - Allow - For two reasons. One, it's a required move for almost all Dark types. Two, from a competitive standpoint, Taunt helps Togekiss greatly by forcing Bulky Waters to attack directly. In reality, Voodoom will die to even Vaporeon spamming Surf. That means Bulky Waters still counter Voodoom, especially since it's not getting an instant recovery move outside of Rest. It will only help deal with some status users and stall (somewhat), which in all honesty, Voodoom beats most of these Pokemon already. I think the main selling point for Taunt is that with 90 / 80 / 80 defenses, Voodoom won't be living long if the opponent decides to attack you constantly. Taunt stays.

Encore - Disallow - In contrast to Taunt, Encore traps Pokemon into one move, preferably a boosting move. Therefore, Voodoom can potentially get one free turn to do anything it wants to, and with its STAB attacks and 105 Base SpA, nothing will like switching into it. Also, this promotes the longevity of Voodoom, as Suicune locked into Calm Mind is much easier to handle than +1 Suicune who can't use Calm Mind again. It helps against this core's counters too much, in my opinion. Taunt doesn't give Voodoom a free move, and still makes Bulky Waters threatening. Not to mention a 110 Speed Pokemon with Encore can stop a whole lot of boosters. It seems too powerful.

Stat-Boosting Moves (outside of Bulk Up) - Disallow - The fact that Agility is being considered is outrageous. The whole reason we didn't give Voodoom a way to gain speed initially was for a reason, and Agility pretty much means Voodoom will out-speed and OHKO / 2HKO everything in the tier. This is a no-no. With that said, any +2 move should really be shot down, with the exception of Acupressure. These boosts pretty much ensure that Voodoom becomes a ridiculously powerful sweeper, basically a faster version on Infernape with better STAB attacks. As far as non-competitive boosting moves, with a 75 move limit, it will be hard to fit them into any movepool, and don't seem useful at all. I'll just be bold and say all boosting moves outside of Bulk Up and Acupressure (flavor and unreliable), competitive or not, should be banned.

Instant Recovery Moves (50% normal) - Disallow - Any move option that allows Voodoom to live longer as an offensive threat should be not allowed. Heck, with the right moveset, Voodoom might be able to live a very large amount of time. It can also beat out some Bulky Waters like Vaporeon and non-CM Suicune. I don't want this kind of recovery.

Baton Pass - Allow - Baton Pass is actually a very handy move on Voodoom. For one, dry passing is actually pretty helpful for Togekiss, as Passing when a Vaporeon switches in means Togekiss gets a free Nasty Plot / Thunderwave. Since Voodoom isn't Passing anything too meaningful to Togekiss (except maybe Defensive boosts), it's not going to be terrible. Plus, the ability to pass Nasty Plot boosts back and forth cements the synergy between this duo.

Mean Look - On the Fence - This helps Voodoom individually somewhat. While this isn't overpowered, both this and Baton Pass can't be on the same set together. While some have the idea that making it illegal to use both on one set, the problem is that Baton Pass is greatly more beneficial to Voodoom at that point, and putting Mean Look on a movepool at that time is wasting a VGM spot. I wouldn't mind it being illegal like that, but that only hurts movepool builders overall.

Thunderwave - Disallow - Not seeing why there's support here. This cripples so many switch-ins, it's not even funny. Only Swampert can really switch into this with impunity. Everything else (be it Scarf users, Starmie, Weavile, you name it) will be defeated by Voodoom if they become paralyzed. Starmie may heal it off, but it's forced to switch out, lest Voodoom OHKO's it with Dark Pulse. Meanwhile, this gives Electivire a way to counter the core (as lol as this seems), which is not wanted. It's small compared to the "Voodoom will out-speed counters" thing, but still acceptable. You could argue that Togekiss does this for Voodoom, but in actuality, that's just a benefit of using Togekiss with Voodoom. Plus, Togekiss draws in things that are not Bulky Waters anyway, which means that Voodoom's counters still remain unharmed. We're looking for that. I don't see why this should be allowed.

Pain Split - Allow - It's unreliable recovery, and really, wastes a coverage spot. It's useful on a Substitute set, but even then, it's used offensively. I see no reason not to have it.

Hazards - Disallow - No thanks. A Base 110 Speed Pokemon as a Lead that can beat other leads AND setting up at least one or two layers of Spikes? This doesn't even match up well with the concept, to be honest.

Rapid Spin - Disallow - A Dark-type Spinner is pretty bad. I mean, it pretty much dismantles any anti-Spinner out there. It's one notch lower than a Scrappy Spinner, really. And at 110 Speed, it's almost guaranteed to remove hazards. Too useful, especially on teams without Togekiss too. It will be Colossoil all over again, but with more Speed.

Calm Mind - Disallow - I don't even want to talk about this. It's just...no. Look at other opinions as to see why this is terrible.

Fake Tears - Allow - A Fake Tears set still loses to revenge killers, Starmie, priority, and a bunch of other things. If it Fake Tears after Suicune Calm Minds, Suicune can potentially OHKO Voodoom with Surf while surviving Aura Sphere. Really, only Vaporeon and Swampert matter in terms of counters being beaten, and like other options, you would have to trade winning against these two to losing against Starmie and Scarf / Priority users. Voodoom simply has better sets in can run, really.

That's it for now. I'll update my post if anything new comes up.

 

[firecape]

Ok, I'm sorry to post again, but I think all this talk about Rapid Spin needs to stop. Voodoom is part Dark-type. This means it will always get to spin, because no Ghosts would dare switch in. I agree that Rapid Spin would benifit the duo greatly, but that can be said about any pair. Celetran would love to not lose 12% each time they switch. Jolteon + Gyarados would like it even more! However, they do fine without it. If needed, you can always just include a Rapid Spinner. Including Rapid Spin on Voodoom is just too far out of the question for this concept.

Rapid Spin - Disallowed.

 

[Naxte]

Thunderwave - Disallow - Not seeing why there's support here. This cripples so many switch-ins, it's not even funny. Only Swampert can really switch into this with impunity. Everything else (be it Scarf users, Starmie, Weavile, you name it) will be defeated by Voodoom if they become paralyzed. Starmie may heal it off, but it's forced to switch out, lest Voodoom OHKO's it with Dark Pulse. Meanwhile, this gives Electivire a way to counter the core (as lol as this seems), which is not wanted. It's small compared to the "Voodoom will out-speed counters" thing, but still acceptable. You could argue that Togekiss does this for Voodoom, but in actuality, that's just a benefit of using Togekiss with Voodoom. Plus, Togekiss draws in things that are not Bulky Waters anyway, which means that Voodoom's counters still remain unharmed. We're looking for that. I don't see why this should be allowed.

Not really seeing the actual argument here. I mean, yes, that's all true.... But the thing is, already stuff like Weavile can't directly switch into Voodoom's Aura Sphere (and the same with Starmie and Dark Pulse), so I don't see how them not being able to switch into Voodoom's T-Wave is an argument against it, as whether it gets T-Wave or not, them trying to switch into Voodoom is already very risky, so nothing's changing there.

Conversely (well, depending on the weight we decide to give it), stuff Weavile can potentially put quite the hurting on Voodoom with Low Kick, meaning that Voodoom can't switch directly into it either.

In any case though, whether Voodoom gets T-Wave or not will stop stop this situation, so I don't see that as an argument against it. Myself, I think Thunder Wave should be Allowed, as one of the areas Togekiss is weaker in is Speed, and thus it will naturally appreciate T-Waves being spread around. True, Togekiss itself can run it, but Kiss has tremendous four-moveslot-syndrome, and T-Wave is not the first move it wants to run, if it can help it. Voodoom running T-Wave for Kiss would thus be taking a burden off its shoulders and helping it out by spreading paralysis, so it seems a good fit to me.

Anyway, beyond that, there are a few other moves I have some thoughts on, but I have to go for now, so I'll edit that stuff in later.

Edit: Okay, then:

Baton Pass+Bulk Up: Allow. First off, Bulk Off is a type-move requirement, so unless there's a very good reason for it, it shouldn't be disallowed. And so far, I haven't. Unless Voodoom actually gets reliable recovery (which I'm against), it just won't get enough return from it. It's Attack is its weaker offensive stat, and it's totally counter-productive with Close Combat (you don't make up for the SpD drop at all, and you're only keeping you're defense steady, and Voodoom doesn't have the stats where it can rely on that). On the other hand, Togekiss will appreciate the boost--it's weaker defensively on the physical side, so the +1 Def will be nice. The Atk boost isn't quite so important to it, but Togekiss can go mixed with Hustle, and, together with the +1 Def boost from Bulk Up, the passed boost could make that set more viable. In any case though, the Def boost is something Kiss will appreciate, I'm not expecting any problems from it, and Bulk Up is a T-M requirement, so it should be Allowed, IMO.

Agility: Allow. I was initially against this, but I've been convinced that Voodoom just doesn't have the offensive stats to actually make this work--opposing Pokemon like Togekiss will still beat it. On the other hand, the speed boost is definitely something your own Togekiss would appreciate being passed to it, so it seems a good fit to me.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Accupressure - Allow
This move will only ever be used as a gimmick. It doesn't hurt the concept, or really do anything to it, and should be allowed.

Agility - Allow
With Agility, Voodoom would hardly become a stand-alone sweeper. It lacks the Base 135 Attack Metagross relies on, and does not have Empoleon's Torrent or resistance to priority. Even if it used an Agility SubPetaya set, it would still have trouble against Blissey, bulky Waters, and anything with priority. And not only is Agility not broken, it helps the concept. One possible way to use Voodoom would be to have Togekiss Baton Pass it a Nasty Plot, set up an Agility, and sweep. If Voodoom gets Baton Pass, it could Baton Pass Agility to Togekiss to let it set up Nasty Plot and sweep.

Baton Pass - Allow
Baton Pass would make Voodoom much more useful to Togekiss. It would allow Voodoom to pass status-blocking Substitutes, and possibly Speed boosts, to Togekiss, helping Togekiss overcome two of the main problems that keep it from sweeping. Dry-passing would also help the Voodoom user get Togekiss in.

Bulk Up - Disallow
Bulk Up, or any other offensive boosting move, encourages stand-alone sweeper or tank roles for Voodoom. Togekiss recieves next to no benefit from it, and if Voodoom gets Baton Pass, Voodoom would end up Passing Bulk Ups to other Pokemon entirely. Passing Bulk Ups to Gyarados would be especially problematic and would likely lead to Gyarados, not Togekiss, being Voodoom's best partner.

Calm Mind - Disallow
Calm Mind would turn Voodoom into a standalone tank or sweeper a la CM Jirachi. A Voodoom functioning in this role would not help Togekiss at all, and would not benefit much from Togekiss's support.

Destiny Bond - Disallow
Destiny Bond Voodoom would likely be used as a lure designed to help Pokemon with similar counters to Voodoom. Note that this includes Gyarados and does not include Togekiss. With Destiny Bond, Voodoom would be able to use its high Speed to kill its counters as they KO it. Voodoom should not be able to take out its counters at all, so Destiny Bond should be disallowed.

Encore - Disallow
Encore would be too powerful on Voodoom. Using Encore would let Voodoom ensure a safe switch-in for any Pokemon, not just Togekiss. Encore Voodoom would also be too potent a stallbreaker, making it able to come in on any non-attacking move and force a switch.

Fake Tears - Disallow
As ShravanP's damage calculations show, Fake Tears would let Voodoom too easily take on many Pokemon that are supposed to counter it, OHKOing many of them after even a small amount of damage.

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy - Allow
Togekiss hates status. By using a cleric move, Voodoom could make an otherwise crippled Togekiss useful again.

Light Screen and Reflect - Disallow
Screens are by far the most useful on heavy offense teams, of which Togekiss is almost never a part. Screens would encourage the use of Voodoom as a supporter to heavy offense teams that do not use Togekiss.

Mean Look - Allow
Mean Look in combination with Baton Pass would devastate stall, but as long as Mean Look and Baton Pass are separated, Mean Look would not be broken. It would usually just trap one of Voodoom's counters, making it not very useful.

Pain Split - Allow
Consider how Pain Split Gengar is used. It is a Blissey and Snorlax lure that is used to open the field up for Special sweepers. SubSplit Voodoom would be a SubSplit Gengar with more HP (which is disadvantageous in this case) and weaker but more reliable STABs. It would work well to eliminate Togekiss's counters but still would not be able to stop Bulky Waters.

Perish Song - Disallow with Mean Look, but otherwise allow
Perish Trapping would let Voodoom sometimes beat bulky Waters, which is a big no-no. Voodoom could use Mean Look on the switch to a Bulky Water, Use Perish Song as it took one hit, Protect, Protect again (with a 50% chance of working), and switch as Perish Song KOed the opponent. No Bulky Water can OHKO Voodoom, so any bulky Water would have a 50% chance of dying to Perish Trap Voodoom. On its own, though, Perish Song forces switches without letting Voodoom beat its counters. This lets Togekiss come in more easily during the free turn. Togekiss might even be able to come into a situation where its counter would have to switch out and then switch back in to counter Togekiss.

Rain Dance - Allow
I doubt Rain Dance would ever be used on Voodoom. Voodoom has no synergy with Rain teams.

Rapid Spin - Disallow
Voodoom with Rapid Spin would be the best Rapid Spinner in the game and would have Rapid Spinning as its main role. It can easily OHKO or 2HKO all OU spin blockers and is easy to switch in, making its Rapid Spinning practically impossible to stop. Rapid Spin would make Voodoom Uber under the Support Characteristic, allowing it to easily and reliably set up conditions under which SR-weak sweepers can sweep.

Recover - Disallow
Recover has no place on an offensive Pokemon like Voodoom. It would encourage wallbreaker sets along the lines of Classic Mixmence, which make Voodoom more of a stand-alone Pokemon. Recover also reduces the need for Togekiss's Wish support.

Snatch - Allow
Might as well. Snatch would be rarely used, and has a niche for beating Zapdos and the many setup sweepers that love to sweep through Togekiss.

Sunny Day - Allow
Like Rain Dance, it would never see any use. Sun in OU is lol, and Voodoom has no synergy with it.

Thunder Wave - Allow
Thunder Wave would help alleviate Togekiss's four moveslot syndrome and would increase the viability of Paralysis-based teams. Paralysis-based teams find Togekiss immensely useful and always want more Paralyzers. This makes Voodoom more useful on teams with Togekiss. Also, most of Voodoom's counters are slower than it is, so Thunder Wave would not let it beat its counters.

 

[capefeather]

Considering what has happened ITT since I last posted, I'm going to add Trick, Baton Pass, Encore, Fake Tears and Rapid Spin to my existing list. I'm doing this so that people can see the entirety of my opinions on each move in one place. I'm also commenting more on Agility and Thunder Wave. That said, I'd REALLY like to encourage people to read the arguments from the other side, because I don't think that people are doing that (particularly with Bulk Up).

EDIT: actually edited my first post lol

 

[Raj]

Perish Song - Disallow with Mean Look, but otherwise allow
Perish Trapping would let Voodoom sometimes beat bulky Waters, which is a big no-no. Voodoom could use Mean Look on the switch to a Bulky Water, Use Perish Song as it took one hit, Protect, Protect again (with a 50% chance of working), and switch as Perish Song KOed the opponent. No Bulky Water can OHKO Voodoom, so any bulky Water would have a 50% chance of dying to Perish Trap Voodoom. On its own, though, Perish Song forces switches without letting Voodoom beat its counters. This lets Togekiss come in more easily during the free turn. Togekiss might even be able to come into a situation where its counter would have to switch out and then switch back in to counter Togekiss.

Other Pokemon can do this and it's not really a great strategy. I say Perish Song and Mean Look allowed

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah I posted this up a bit hastily and was a few minutes late for work.

First round commentary:

DO NOT post moves for Controversial

I will decide what is and is not controversial. Post for either Allowed or Disallowed based on your ultimate stance, I will be able to tell if you have reservations.

Also Substitite, Toxic, and moves of that like are all considered requirements and will not be disallowed.

RE: Bulk Up and Taunt:

Both are type-move requirements and I'd be hard-pressed to see them removed. Both viable option insofar as it makes Voodoom a more competent mixed threat or offers it additional physical KO power(Bulk Up) and prevents early game rocks from going up (Taunt).

RE: Baton Pass:

The big issue with Bulk Up + Baton Pass seemsto be how it would help other partners over Togekiss. The most common listed one is Gyarados, and while it helps, exactly what would the rest of Voodoom's set be? Close Combat would be detrimental to Baton Pass and your only other options are Brick Break or low kick. Alternatively you could just be running a special attacking set that just happened to utilize BU + Baton Pass. If you're really ambling to pass a stat to Gyarados, why would it be BU? Gyara's biggest issue is Thunderbolt, and BU doesn't help it there, plus it requires Voodoom to be active for at least one turn to get it out. That's all perfectly plausible I suppose, but Togekiss also likes Bulk Up because it lets it absorb Close Combat much more easily, and it can pass Nasty Plots between it and Voodoom.

Acupressure is interesting with Baton Pass, but laughably inconsistent, so no harm there. Acupressure isn't even really a competitive move in most contexts.

All other stat boosters will be Disallowed. Where Bulk Up is beneficial to many Pokemon, Togekiss is in that general listing because of the core's issue with strong opposing Close Combats.

RE: Block/Mean Look:

As long as it's dissalowed with Baton Pass these moves are fine.

Paralysis support:

Paralysis support was a major compelling argument for most of the CAP. I will be allowing it in multiple forms. Thunder Wave, Body Slam, and Force Palm top the list.

Moves for Discussion:

Please give feedback on some of these unmentioned moves.

Fake Out: Gives Voodoom a niche as a lead capable of at least stopping suicide leads from setting up rocks for a turn. It's also fairly fitting flavor-wise.

Psycho Shift: Togekiss tends to attract status a lot and Psycho Shift helps Voodoom keep its own health while being situationally useful against a variety of stalling opponents.

 

[hydrolphin]

Encore - Disallow - In contrast to Taunt, Encore traps Pokemon into one move, preferably a boosting move. Therefore, Voodoom can potentially get one free turn to do anything it wants to, and with its STAB attacks and 105 Base SpA, nothing will like switching into it. Also, this promotes the longevity of Voodoom, as Suicune locked into Calm Mind is much easier to handle than +1 Suicune who can't use Calm Mind again. It helps against this core's counters too much, in my opinion. Taunt doesn't give Voodoom a free move, and still makes Bulky Waters threatening. Not to mention a 110 Speed Pokemon with Encore can stop a whole lot of boosters. It seems too powerful.

Yes, Voodoom does get one turn to do something using Encore, but if it doesn't get any boosting moves, then what will it do that turn? Attack Suicune, who will likely have +1 SpD with Aura Sphere? Thats a wasted turn. However, Encore gives Togekiss some switch in opportunities to come in and be useful. Togekiss needs every free switch in possible as it loses 25% of its HP every time it switches in. Encore helps keep the unnecessary damage away from Togekiss. And yes Voodoom could stop most stat boosters with its speed and Encore. But it also gives Togekiss a chance to come in and T-Wave, shutting them down for good.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

That said, I'd REALLY like to encourage people to read the arguments from the other side, because I don't think that people are doing that (particularly with Bulk Up).

You say that Bulk Up is not viable. But, if it is not viable, then why are you arguing for its inclusion? You don't seem to justify this point in the entirety of this paragraph, and you don't give reasons that would merit its inclusion, as would be the converse method. The rest of this paragraph seems merely to continue an explanation of why Bulk Up is not viable on Voodoom (which I would not necessarily agree with, but that is irrelevant), so does not seem pertinent to the issue at hand. The main issue here is what you outlined in your final paragraph - that Bulk Up itself, possibly when included with Baton Pass, has the unfortunate circumstance of not actually helping the concept in any way whatsoever, and has the potential to be a viable strategy - and if we are to act on theorymon, it is always safest to assume the worst until we know otherwise. You say our concerns are only justified when BUdoom becomes the standard. I would not say that was the case - simply because I am not convinced in the slightest what is going to be the standard yet WITH REGARD TO THE PARTNERS. As far as I can see, there is very little real incentive for Togekiss to be the outright best partner for Voodoom that there is, and we aren't helping this part by further straying from the concept. It may seem a very tiny detail, but we can't know it's exact effects until we see what Voodoom can do in and out of Togekiss's sphere. You then go on to talk about 'doomsday', which I think is quite an overreaction to what I am warning against. I have no doubt that Bulk UP will not become the standard, but I also have no doubt that it will be used, and abused, and could tip Voodoom's balance away from its admittedly already quite low-rate partner, to Zapdos or Gyarados or simply standalone.

To be honest, reading your argument I was not convinced that you had actually read my arguments beforehand, though admittedly looking back they were not terribly clear. To reiterate briefly: Bulk Up gives Voodoom another option that is both unnecessary and deviates from the concept, and is also potentially very viable. From a practical standpoint, it is much less useful than a majority of other options on a movepool that already has to make massive cutbacks to deal with the new regulations, and from a competitive standpoint, its inclusion to the movepool can only pull us further away from the goal we are trying to reach. It is detrimental to include, and I prefer "better to be safe than sorry" over Type-Move considerations. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

On Taunt, I'd just like to say that I want bulky Waters to be kept as powerful as possible in terms of countering or checking Voodoom, and so I'd put that "trade" as not being a good deal at all. The last moveslot (the others being DarkPulse/AuraSphere/CloseCombat) is basically filler anyway - giving another option to beat its biggest counters - who were decided by the community to be counters - is not a good thing. Especially if it encourages Voodoom users to be rid of Togekiss, as now Togekiss's support and synergy is much less needed. Moreover the option of being an Anti-Lead is now a much higher possibility.

Of course, your post is one of the most well-reasoned in this thread and, as for the rest of it, I agree in its entirety.

 

[familyguyman]

Glare/Stun Spore would be nice. Togekiss NEEDS paralysis support outside of Thunder Wave. Seriously, my Togekiss team had Jirachi or Togekiss rely on Body Slam just to paralyze Swampert or Gliscor.

Force Palm and Body Slam deserve mention for the same reasons. Remember, if you are banking on paralysis, you can invest Speed EVs in HP or go Mixed easily, it's really helpful.

Finally, I am proposing a custom move. A Fighting or Normal type that has >75% paralysis, if not 100% Paralysis chance. Thunder Wave works against any non-Ground type and it's far from broken. I understand the Normal/Fighting paralysis + Dark type to kill Ghosts dynamic but you still have Celebi with Thunder Wave and a Grass type to kill Ground types. Again, far from broken. This would also add the Heal Bell dynamic to avoid mass paralysis, opening a niche for Togekiss in a sense.

If I may be so bold, I propose "Stitch Up" as a Fighting type move with 100% paralysis.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Stitch Up is kind of pointless, as Stun Spore/Glare (Glare would be much more flavorful), as it can paralyze anything.

The 75% accuracy sounds a bit unappealing, but not bad enough to warrant no usage of Glare.

I'm pushing Glare for Allowed.

 

[Quilph]

Of all the boosts people are discussing, things like iron defense and amnesia have been completely absent. Or one can go for cosmic power to raise both one stage. I realize that defense boosters are very rarely used since they only indirectly aid with sweeping, but I'd be interested to know what people think about these. Voodoom's defenses are only modestly solid and could use some buffing. In terms of the concept, Togekiss would especially like being passed higher defense so it can handle the strong fighting types that could cause problems for the duo. I'd just like to see what the general position is on +2 boosters to defense and special defense.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've updated the OP to say No Custom Non-Attacking Moves.

There are seriously way too many NAM to begin with. Voodoom in no way needs a unique NAM built for it to do it's job as 'Kiss' perfect mate.

I've moved Baton Pass, Perish Song, and Destiny Bond to Controversial. All of these moves have the potential to move Voodoom out of its capacity as Togekiss' Mate and make it too supporting in general. This is why support moves like Heal Bell and hazards have been moved into disallowed.

Destiny Bond in particular fits for flavor, but between in and Sucker Punch Voodoom might become a bit too good at being its own threat and guanteeing 2 kills a match. That would move it a bit too far independently but I' willing to hear more on the subject.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

I did forget a few things:

Pain Split: Allow. It's much less reliable than other healing moves, but we all know how good SubSplit Gengar is, and Voodoom could easily outdo it at this role. It depends on what benefits Pain Split can hold for 'Kiss, if any.

Mean Look: Agreeing with all above arguments, allowed as long as it isn't compatible with BP on a moveset.



I also forgot about Force Palm; silly me. Just throw that into my earlier T-Wave/Body Slam vote.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So for baton passwe have these issues?

Mean look + baton pass = hax
Bulk Up + Baton Pass = mates it better to other characters.




given the above. I'd RATHER have
Baton Pass Allowed given the abilty to pass toge's own passed stat increases back to togekiss AND pass on subs to toge.

And, to avoid the above situations:
Disallow Bulk Up. And either BAN baton traping or Disallow Mean look and Block.





On an entirely different note, I'm not sure if anyone uses Scary Face in place of Glare for its better accuracy, albeit lesser effect, but it should be allowed if anything it's underpowered. (Not sure how many people would run Glare rather than Body slam for non-electric paralysis, but it's certainly not overpowered, so I'd allow it.)

 

[capefeather]

Re: bmb

I argue for the inclusion of a move in the allowed list because I care that it is allowed and because I don't see a reason not to include it. Bulk Up fulfills both of these, and I feel (as others undoubtedly do) that the burden of proof is on the side that wants to make an exception to the established policy, in this case the Type-Move requirement of Bulk Up for the Fighting type. I know that, for a lot of people brainstorming movepools right now, Bulk Up is assumed, and the restrictions arising from that were supposed to happen to prevent movepool bloat. If this is a problem, then maybe that should have been addressed in the stat/movepool limits stage, not here. I'd also like to say that the comment that you quoted was not directed at you, and that my post about Bulk Up was in response not just to you but to various other statements I've heard throughout the process that Bulk Up might break the concept (not just deviate), which is the main reason for my "doomsday" comments :P

In my "list", I assumed the most sensible-looking four moves. New "discoveries" often revolve around non-attacking moves, which are being discussed right now. In terms of attacking moves, Close Combat seems to be the only move that compels Voodoom to go physical, and the special STABs are practically obvious to use. So now there's a fierce competition for the other two moveslots. We can make educated guesses like this. It's not like 2007 where no one was really sure how to handle the metagame and Choice Specs was assumed to be Lucario's best set. (I can't speak for previous CAPs getting questionable abilities, though. Great abilities don't get "moveslot syndrome", anyway.) We know by now that Baton Passing even one turn of boosts is hard to pull off even for a Pokémon as well-endowed with support moves as Gliscor.

The goal for me is to make it so that this "standard attacking set" happens to synergize well with Togekiss, and that other options are more situational and not really using Voodoom to its fullest. I'm calling to disallow non-"required" moves based on their potential to usurp a moveslot from perfectly good moves, AND deviate from the concept. It's not "let's hope this specific set helps and is helped by Togekiss"; it's "this is Voodoom's best set, and it helps and is helped by Togekiss". I'm not inclined to believe that a "natural partnership" like that is so fragile so as to be undone by an alternative set using a Type-Move requirement.

 

[doominic77]

I'd like to propose that Voodoom should get Amnesia. A 2+ SpD boost could increase Togekiss' already good SpD stat.

 

[Deck Knight]

I suppose I'm technically immune to threadhogging but:

Please don't post "Undecided" either:

Waffling is for breakfast shops and aging quarterbacks, people. If you have reservations just put it in the paragraph after allowed or disallowed. This will indicate to me whether I should put it up for a vote (Controversial) or not.

In regards to Glare:

Having the options of either unreliable non-electric paralysis (Force Palm, Body Slam) and reliable Electric paralysis is going to lure in Ground types, which hit Voodoom for nuetral damage and Togekiss for none, so by leaving it down to those options you get a slight bit more synergy between the two.

Flavorwise it's really more akin to "Snake Glare" than just a glare in general, and even though Rev got it I'm not so keen on it personally, but it's not fitting into either Dissalow category of "helps other mons more than Togekiss too greatly" or "deviates from the concept."


In regards to Iron Defense and Amnesia:

For the purposes of this decision I'm assuming Baton Pass is also allowed, since on their own Voodoom has little incentive to use them. Amnesia is far more beneficial to other mons. Amnesia + Baton Pass to Gyarados makes it almost impossible to break through it. Iron Defense is less obviously beneficial to something else, but I think Bulk Up's +1 keeps that move in check. The list of things that viably use +1 Defense is shorter than the list that can viably use +2 Defense, and I think Togekiss falls in that +1 category. It's basically like removing the STAB on Close Combat, which should allow Togekiss to switch in safely with its bulkier sets.

Eg. Physical LO MixApe Close Combat to +1 "Baton Pass" Togekiss:

40.9-48.1%. This is still a 2HKO if SR is down, but otherwise Togekiss can either Air Slash or Roost.

Scarf sets will take more damage. 49.2-57.9% in this case, but without the +1 Def. It can be OHKO'd easily after SR damage. Note that Togekiss' standard bulky sets never run Defense EVs, only HP, so this isn't the full potential of the pairing.

So in other words I think if Baton Pass utility is limited to Bulk Up and lol Acupressure, Togekiss is one of the more viable candidates to pass to with just a +1/+1 Boost. I don't think Hustlekiss is going to magically become viable, but it helps.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Controversial:
Baton Pass: Allow. Pass Bulk Up boosts for Togekiss to kill people with Hustle Return. Sure, why not.
Perish Song: Allow. Surely not broken. Stopping a rampaging sweeper helps all pokemon.
Destiny Bond: No comment. It doesn't seem to benefit Kiss, but neither does weather. It doesn't seem broken.

Pending:
Fake Out: Allow. No SR is always good.
Psycho Shift: Sure, why not. Paralyzed Kiss/Toxic-ed Kiss=Dead Kiss.
Torment: No comment. It doesn't seem to benefit Kiss, but neither does weather. It doesn't seem broken.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

@Deck Knight: Ok, changed all the 'Undecided' ones to 'Allow'.