CAP 11 CAP 11 - Secondary Typing Discussion

[Aqueos]

I wish we could back this whole process back up to the beginning and pick a different concept, pokemon or type, but it's too late for that now.
In any Case here are my opinions on all the types.
Normal Why would you want this?
Rock Offers a nice rock resist and dooms zapdos but fighting types rule this.
Dark Rotom is in trouble and psychic is not an issue, but again fighting types dominate.
Flying Why?
Water Double Electric weakness would doom the duo.
Grass Bulky Waters are in trouble, but a double ice weakness coupled with rotom-h and zapdos dominating isn't worth it.
Ice An ice resist and a nice way to ko zapdos, but you are now weak to a bunch of types including fighting.
Electric Lures ground type moves, and resists electric. Zapdos is in a little more trouble.
Psychic No more psychic weakness, and a better way to hit rotom and zapdos, but now rotom has you at its mercy.
Steel Ice resist, ground lure, and rock is useless, but again fighting weakness.
Ghost Rotom MAY be in trouble if you outspeed or ko with shadow sneak or something but otherwise rotom bait. Possible problems with zapdos, but no fighting problems at all.
Ground Rock resistance and electric immunity, but problems with ice beam. Rotom and zapdos are laughing.
Fire Ground Lure and ice resistance, but you lose rock resistance.
Poison Ground lure, 4x psychic weakness.
Dragon Ice and dragon weakness and some useless resists

 

[reachzero]

All the Rock supporters need to keep in mind that Scizor CB Bullet Punch is a far more legitimate concern than Zapdos is to Togekiss. Scizor demolishes anything that is weak to Bullet Punch, and he is already doing 45.2% - 53.2% to Flinch Togekiss as is. Do we really want to make our "perfect duo" weak to the most commonly used pokemon in the game?

Scizor can't risk switching in on either strong Fighting or strong Rock attacks, and Rock/Fighting resists Pursuit, so it can just switch out of Bullet Punch. So Scizor is only facing CAP11 if it's revenge killing, and there isn't any reason it can't simply switch out if Scizor does come in. Steel is a so-so offensive type, and you have four other teammates to help.

 

[Zakki]

Okay, my last post, and hopefully the voting starts soon because I'm tried of the bickering BS and just want the type to go on.

First point: I think someone already covered this, the guy with the Jesus picture....umm... reachzero, a combo is a combo, you know like a one-two punch, its not going to solve every problem. There's no way. Every Combo has a weakness. CeleRan = Heracross rips through it by its self. Skarmbliss = Leech Seed works wonders on these two, plus if you have something in the wings that can pop on of them hard, combo over, bye-bye. So what do you do when this comes on? Use another one of the 4 F*cking other pokemon.
All in all, I really don't care about this debate anymore because its no longer a debate, all that I want is another type combination on a pokemon, bring new idea to the battlefield.
I'm happy with Rock, Electric, Dragon, and Dark because they all make pretty viable options, countering some and opposed by others, thats how Pokemon works. I vote Hell no to anything for Fire/Fighting for anything for this. Its already used twice, Infernape, which I have now idea why it took off like it did but its out there and Blaziken, which I don't understand why it didn't go off because it only really needs a Agility boost from something (anything really would work, including Gorebyss), and it has much better offensive stats then Infernape.
If poison/Fighting is your way for your Togekiss-counters counter, try Toxicroak, most people don't because they like to stick to strickly OU pokemon because they can live deviating from a pack, you cowards. Toxicroak, not only does what we mentioned for Poison already, it also is Immune to Water if you want Dry Skin if you remember WAY back in this there about BULKy -WATER threats. Toxicroak takes that one, so no Poison/Fighting please.

If I said anything harsh or unnerving to you, suck it up. You have to learn how to take criticism, and learn from it.

Fuzzy, can we get on with voting for this Mothertrucker.

Edit: and I am really this sick of how unnecessary all this BS is getting.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Dude, did you read dxiyczk's and HD's posts? They talked about the calcs, mainly the ice move impacts on Togekiss. HD ended up saying that bulky waters, specifically Suicune and Vaporeon, pose a threat to Togekiss. There's no reason to be rude here, I'm just pointing out that waters pose a threat to a faux Infernape or Blaziken along with Togekiss.
Furthermore, the added resistance that srk1214 pointed out in Fire, Ice, and Steel just can't outweigh the other options.
As I "explored" the option of a fire secondary, I found there are too many holes in relation to Togekiss. Chill out.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

Fuzzy, can we get on with voting for this Mothertrucker.

I'm with Zakki here. The discussion's just going in circles now.

 

[UncleSam]

Scizor can't risk switching in on either strong Fighting or strong Rock attacks, and Rock/Fighting resists Pursuit, so it can just switch out of Bullet Punch. So Scizor is only facing CAP11 if it's revenge killing, and there isn't any reason it can't simply switch out if Scizor does come in. Steel is a so-so offensive type, and you have four other teammates to help.

By this logic, we have four other pokemon to deal with Rotom-A and Zapdos as well. Electric deals with the rest of the metagame significantly better.

Now, maybe I am under the wrong impression here, but aren't we trying to build the "perfect duo"? I mean, you will never handle every pokemon with ease, but it seems to me that Scizor is a much bigger priority to handle than Zapdos. And Togekiss is already probably going to be running Shadow Ball much more often over Aura Sphere as is, so Rotom-A isn't as much of a problem. Electric doesn't even need the other four teammates to deal with these two decently enough to sweep by them, while Rock requires outside help to deal with the best Revenge killer/Most used pokemon in the game.

Edit: Sorry if I sound belligerent.

 

[The_Third_Try]

Fire does not provide anything extra in my mind. Fire is super effective against Bug and Grass - already covered by Togekiss' Flying-type, and Ice and Steel - already covered by CAP 11's Fighting-type. Fire brings a new weakness in Water and a lost resistance in Rock.

The only positive to adding Fire-type is its new resistances: Fire, Ice, and Steel. While these resistances are definitely helpful, it cannot possibly compensate for the downside.

By the way, a downsized Infernape that would need Nasty Plot passes to really work already exists: Blaziken.

I agree that it doesn't add a whole lot offensively, but it limits which other pokemon besides 'Kiss can work with it, and I like that alot. I don't think it's an ideal type, but I think it's a safe choice and would make it easier to fulfill the concept later on in the project. In short, what I mean is while this wouldn't be my favourite choice, I definatly wouldn't mind this being CAP11's type.

 

[Zakki]

Dude, did you read dxiyczk's and HD's posts?

Yes, I did. I quite enjoyed that some actually did some math on these situations instead of mindlessly going A>B, and then the other responsed no B>A plus C>=B>A. Statistics make good points. Though did you know that about 80% of Statistics are fake. [sorry, just trying to liven the mood]

There's no reason to be rude here.... ...Chill out.

Yes, rude, but hopefully effective of ending this "debate."

 

[Griffin Rich]

Hahahahahaha, right, I understand. Unfortunately, I wasn't talk about you in that post.
I'm supporting electric, which I see you would be fine with, so everything is cool.

 

[Bughouse]

In light of all the recent arguments against pretty much every other type, could people please revisit the arguments for Poison towards the beginning of this thread.

Ground is not an issue since Togekiss is there, and Psychic is hardly used in OU (mostly just by Nasty Plot Azelf or Calm Mind Jirachi).

Poison gives CAP 11 a Fighting resist that helps Togekiss without adding an important weakness to CAP 11. Bug and Flying eliminate the Rock resist, while Psychic has already been argued over many times and the consensus seems against it because of Rotom.

Poison offers a STAB that, while not Super Effective against much of anything in OU (Breloom and Celebi only), when combined with Fighting covers all of OU for neutral damage except for Gengar, Rotom, Dusknoir, Tentacruel, and Roserade.

Roserade is basically seen only as a lead. Tentacruel should not be considered a threat; almost any pokemon can set up against it. The other three are Ghosts which could be dealt with by giving CAP 11 a Dark or Ghost type attack.

Don't immediately shun Poison-type as too weak just as many shun Dragon-type as too strong.

 

[Venator]

I want to see this debate end for now. We're only going in circles and losing sight of what Togekiss needs, which was pretty much decided would happen once we voted Fighting instead of any of the other 3 types in the previous poll. Can Fuzznip decide which types he thinks are best to choose from and we can get on with voting?

 

[capefeather]

Seriously, why is everyone obsessing over Zapdos and Rotom-A and not Scizor? Electric allows CAP11 to Paralyze Rotom-A and Zapdos, while covering all of it's other duties as Togekiss' partner. Once these threats are paralyzed, Togekiss can set up on them easily enough.

Ground-types...?

 

[HD]

Dude, did you read dxiyczk's and HD's posts? They talked about the calcs, mainly the ice move impacts on Togekiss. HD ended up saying that bulky waters, specifically Suicune and Vaporeon, pose a threat to Togekiss. There's no reason to be rude here, I'm just pointing out that waters pose a threat to a faux Infernape or Blaziken along with Togekiss.

What. My point was that bulky waters pose no threat to Togekiss. If you haven't noticed, Togekiss can easily Roost off all their Ice Beams.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

From what I've read, the main issue that people have with Fighting/Dark is a weakness to Fighting. Like a few others have said, this duo doesn't need to sweep an entire team by itself. Slap a Rotom on the team and we have a great Fighting counter. Infernape, Machamp, and Lucario are all walled pretty damn effectively by even a Slowbro. Don't trash a perfectly good typing just because of one weakness, even if it is a common one. The fact that we only have to focus on that one weakness makes it that much easier to deal with.

We seriously need to get on with the poll. Sorry if I'm being rude, Fuzznip.

Also people please address Kingdra and Cyclohm before saying Dragon is automatically broken.

Don't forget Altaria.

Because Water, Flying, and Electric STAB can demolish Steel types.

 

[Griffin Rich]

so yes, bulky waters (meaning vappy and suicune) do indeed cause problems.

EDIT: HD- offensive suicune can use that roosting turn to set up. Also, considering SR, these numbers add up very quickly.

house- sorry for the syntax issue. replace bulky waters with suicune and vaporeon. also, a core suggests some sort of defensive synergy, even if they are mainly offensive pokemon. otherwise, a 'core' would be any two offensive pokemon. jirachi/salamence is a good example of an offensive core (depending on their movesets i suppose), and they both have defensive synergy.

EDIT2: cape- yes, two pokemon can have good offensive synergy without having anything else in common. however, a core requires defensive synergy as well. a core suggest that these pokemon are the center of your team that you fall back on, and if both pokemon fall to the same moves, it's a huge detriment. ttar+luc may work on the same team because they are versatile with stats and typing to back them up. we're dealing with half our core being a mostly defensive, supporting normal/flying type, which is part of the problem.

Sincerely sorry HD, I mis-quoted. While it's possible to roost and avoid ice beam, it takes one prediction for suicune to set up. Also, Vaporeon does have the toxic stall. Regardless, sorry for the mix up, and I'm done with bickering until we actually vote.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

Don't immediately shun Poison-type as too weak just as many shun Dragon-type as too strong.

The problem with poison is that it doesn't help with Rotom, Zapdos or especially Scizor, which are all much bigger threats to 'kiss than fighters (who either lose switching into 'kiss or can be handled by a third party).

 

[reachzero]

Also, I would like some responses to the suggestion of Fighting/Ice, because it interests me.

I mentioned Ice very briefly in a previous post, so I'll expand on it a little more. Ice is a pretty useful type against Zapdos and Dragonite, but ultimately it's disappointing because it just opens up too many weaknesses--not only is it weak to Fighting, but the neutrality to Rock negates the entire post of being Fighting type. The Fire weakness is one that Togekiss can't cover, either. Ice simply does not help Togekiss enough offensively to compensate for how badly it hurts CAP11 defensively.

 

[Fuzznip]

This is absolutely horrendous. I am extremely disappointed how the secondary typing is being discussed.

Are we really coming to the point where people are suggesting Dragon? Dragon is not on my list of possible secondary types. What does it do for Togekiss exactly? I'm assuming you are all using the "it resists Electric!" as an excuse to make it a viable option. Does it hit Rotom-A or Zapdos super effectively? No. It doesn't help with Togekiss's counters. People are suggesting Dragon on a defensive mind-set because of the resistances it has. Remember what this core was supposed to do? Be primarily offensive. You can argue that Dragon is literally the best offensive attacking type in OU, but that is one of the reasons why I am rejecting it. It's not only going to help Togekiss somehow, it's going to basically become your standard offensive Dragon with Close Combat and Outrage. Who cares about Togekiss when you have this all-out monster that can just sweep on its own? Fighting + Dragon is an incredibly potent attacking type combo. Going down that route will instantly corrupt this concept and will ditch Togekiss in the blink of an eye. Thanks but no thanks.

I'm closing this thread because it's just becoming more and more of a problem. I've gave many warnings, and they were ignored. I have chosen my slate and expect the poll to be up soon.