CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Movepool Limits

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jas61292

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#1
This is the stage where we set limits to CAP 18's movepool ahead of the actual movepool submissions. Volkraken's stats generate a Base Stat Rating of 323 (Very Good). According to the recent Policy Review thread, a Very Good BSR corresponds to a Very Good movepool limit of 65 total moves and 33 "Restricted Moves". However, we may end up going higher or lower depending on the Pokémon. That is where this thread comes in. The actual list of Restricted Moves can be found in this article.

Also, please note that there is no vote at this stage! Our Movepool Leader (ginganinja) will be gathering the community consensus at the end of this thread and making an executive decision.

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CAP18 so far:

Leadership Team:

DetroitLolcat
- Topic Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader
Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:
  • How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
  • Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
  • What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
  • How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
  • Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
  • Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
  • Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?
Pokemon CAP18 should threaten:

It's important that, first and foremost, we threaten the Pokemon and strategies that our core has no answer to. In general, the degree to which a Pokemon threatens Latias and Lucario should be the degree to which CAP18 threatens that Pokemon.

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

When I say "to a lesser extent", I mean that CAP 18 should be a threatening presence to this Pokemon, but it should not be an ultra-reliable counter. CAP18 should perform well against every Pokemon on this list, but that doesn't mean CAP18 needs to unconditionally switch into and force out these Pokemon. It should likely be able to do one or the other, but countering all of these Pokemon is neither feasible nor recommended.

CAP18 should be able to handle, either by switching in or 1v1, the Pokemon that defeat at least one of our core members that the other one cannot switch into. For example, Mega Charizard X is a Pokemon that defeats Lucario 1v1 that Latias can't switch into. If Multiscale is active, so is Dragonite. Gyarados, before it Mega Evolves, fits this bill.

*With a weakness to Ground, this will be a difficult task. We should threaten these Pokemon as well as we can, but we should not expect to counter Ground-types, but rather defeat them 1v1.

Pokemon CAP18 should be threatened by:

We should be okay with CAP 18 losing to Pokemon that the rest of our core handles well. For example, Latias is a tremendous answer to Rotom-W, and CAP18 is weak to Electric and does not have a STAB that can hit Rotom-W even neutrally. Rotom-W isn't particularly bothered by Fire- and Water-type support options, so making Rotom-W anything other than a threat to CAP18 is fitting a square peg into a round hole. Keldeo is a similar example, although Keldeo is so commonly paired with Pursuit Aegislash (the bane of this core) that it's not safe to let Keldeo counter this CAP.

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.
Walls with minimal offensive presence: Chansey, Blissey.

Pokemon not on either of our threatlists should be overly specifically threatening or threatened by CAP 18. Just because a Pokemon is not in the second list doesn't mean it is our prerogative to beat it. The same goes with Pokemon not in the first list: we shouldn't be expected to lose to every Pokemon that we don't threaten.
Typing: Fire / Water
Abilities: Analytic / Infiltrator / ???
Stats: 100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe
 
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ginganinja

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#2
O.k, so with the movepool discussion threads now over, its time to move onto the Movepool Limits. This is an important part of the process, both in a competitive sense, and in a flavour one.

In terms of finding an initial RMs baseline, I am currently looking at 25 RMs, mostly because I see this CAP as having a limited movepool. It could run an aggressive set with Double STABs + Power Gem and U-Turn for a Pivot role, or it could run a more defensive set, perhaps dropping a STAB, or maybe Power Gem / U-Turn for some more defensive moves. As far as I see it, I don’t think this CAP needs a huge number of moves, especially due to its already high stats.

In terms of total movepool, initially I am currently thinking 60 as being a good starting point, again as I see CAP 18 having a smaller movepool, as opposed to a wider one.

That said, these numbers are only provisional at the moment, and its highly likely that some of you might feel that I have been too restrictive, or perhaps not restrictive enough. I encourage anyone to post, giving their own opinions as to what sort of limits we should be looking at, with an explanation included. At the conclusion of the thread, I will make judgement call, so the better written your post is, the more helpful it is to me to get an idea as to the community opinion on this matter.
 
#3
I agree with the initial baseline, though we could possibly even drop the total movepool lower. Volkraken really only needs its STABs and a couple support moves, since we disallowed virtually all coverage, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that the final movepool may resemble something like Talonflame (25 RMs, 50 Total). That said, I don't think the movepool necessarily should be narrowed, but it definitely has a bit of room to be reduced if necessary.
 
#4
I also think the initial baseline is acceptable. Considering Volkraken's sparse coverage and limited support options, I would say that it would be fine if the final movepool were even lower, but I agree that it isn't mandatory for the movepool to be slimmed down. Nonetheless, we do have room to do so if it's deemed desirable.
 
#5
I think the baseline of 33/65 is fine.

As is Volkraken is going to have 4MSS since it's going to need both it's stabs and at least one support move already. Letting it have more then a handful of options for the fourth slot isn't going to hurt it and allow it to do its job much better.
 

Korski

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#6
I think ginganinja's proposed limits are perfect. This Poke should be launching Fire Blasts and Hydro Pumps 90% of the time, and adding a bunch of riffraff for gimmick sets sounds like the making of an unfocused playtest. I've been tooling around with a preliminary movepool for a while and I can't even get to 25 RMs without counting the RMs I consider flavor additions that would otherwise be useless to this Poke. I personally have never cared for the maximum move limit in general, but 60 seems fair enough if people want to load up on flavor moves. That there are no Tutor moves in Gen. VI should make a 60 move maximum easy to deal with for submitters. We should go with these limits and let the community decide which low-impact moves Volkraken should have in its final movepool.
 

Deck Knight

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#7
Deck Knight used Post Resurrect:

"Deck Knight, post: 4658842, member: 653"]So here I am again going to ruin everyone's fun by pointing out brute obvious facts of movepool aesthetics.

The fact is, STABs and "every mon" VGMs always take up a substantial portion of the movepool. Lets start with the basics:

Toxic
Hidden Power
Protect
Frustration
Return*
Facade
Rest
Sleep Talk

That's 8 VGMs there, so now we've got 22 left w/ 60/30.

Lets add in STABs, including all the moves we've discussed and Tutors/TMs:

Crunch
Dark Pulse
Foul Play
Payback
Punishment
Pursuit
Sucker Punch

Power Whip/Wood Hammer/Leaf Blade
Energy Ball
Giga Drain
Grass Knot
Seed Bomb

That's 12 more, so we're now up to 20, just with aesthetic STABs and discussed STABs, leaving 10 moves left. This is further diminished if you want to offer people options like Power Whip and Leaf Blade etc.

And I'm not even to support moves yet, which would in most pools include Taunt, Rapid Spin, Glare and Knock Off. There's another 4 down, leaving 6 left.

Add U-turn, Dragon Tail, Roar, Aromatherapy, Synthesis, and Spikes and that completes the 30.

30 is simply too low if we do not want a series of cookie-cutter movepool submissions, where the only difference lies in say whether someone likes Ice Fang but not Spikes and so excises their movepool that way - or deliberate cuts out superfluous STABs to make room for more competitive moves.

Aersthetics is not a flavor argument. I take my movepool aesthetics very seriously because I want the product we produce to be comparable to existing Pokemon and not just be a jumbled mass of competitive moves placed in whatever slots they can (cape knows I detest Tomohawk's movepool aesthetics). It's about being complete and presenting an image of a realistic Pokemon.

Therefore my suggest is a modest increase to 70/35 to account for the fact that at least a few movepool submitters take seriously the idea of replicating in-game learnsets including their flavor rules - which include moves that others don't think of adding to their movepools because they never come up competitively.


I'll do a similar exercise here.

The Auto- 7 Restricted Moves (since one is a duplicate) is still the same. Now for STABs that seem likely on this CAP:

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Flare Blitz
Heat Wave
Lava Plume
Overheat

Aqua Jet
Aqua Tail
Hydro Pump
Muddy Water
Scald
Surf
Waterfall

Most people I imagine will boil this down to about 4 each for aesthetic purposes, so there's another 8 moves. We're now up to 15 RMs, and we haven't even gotten to coverage and support yet.

That leaves us, given a 25 limit, 10 moves out of the following:

Allowed List from AM, minus STABS:
Aura Sphere
Clear Smog *
Flash Cannon *
Power Gem *
Sludge Wave *
U-Turn *
Physical flavor moves that would technically be RMs like Gunk Shot, Poison Jab, Rock Blast, etc. *

Allowed List from NAM, minus any moves that aren't actually RMs:
Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Refresh*
Baton Pass *
Destiny Bond
Haze
Healing Wish
Memento *
Pain Split *
Rain Dance *
Reflect *
Stealth Rock *
Will-O-Wisp *

I've marked with an asterisk moves that will be in high aesthetic or competitive demand, the total of which is 14 (and technically more for physical aesthetic RMs).

It's thus my recommendation that if the RM limit is to be lowered from 33, the amount should be between 28 and 30 (inclusive) and not 25. 25 is too prohibitive aesthetically because we judge RMs based on their inherent competitiveness and not their specific competitiveness.
 
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DetroitLolcat

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#8
Looking at Deck's list, I'm inclined to agree with him about the RM limit. 25's a good place to start, but seeing all the moves listed out like that shows that we're going to need to give movepool submitters a little more leeway when picking some of the fringe-competitive and flavor RMs. Right now, there are 31 total competitive RMs: 11 Non-Attacking Moves, 6 Attacking Moves, 7 STAB moves, and 7 Required moves. A limit of 25 RMs would force people to cull 6 moves from that list before giving Volkraken any Physical STAB (with every flavor move forcing another competitive RM to be cut). While movepools with 25 RMs can definitely accomplish all of the goals we would like Volkraken to accomplish, there is very little room for diversity of competitive and flavor options. 25 RMs is where some of the smaller movepools should fit, not a limit.

I believe a limit of 29-30 would do a better job of allowing diversity of competitive and flavor moves. Users won't be forced to raise their movepools from the current 25, and I hope to see some movepools with only 25 RMs in Movepool Submissions. But if the limit is 25, then just about every submission will be forced to ride that limit in order to fit in the necessary competitive and a few flavor options. 29-30 lets users have 25 competitive RMs while giving Volkraken a few nifty Physical options, or even stay under the limit without having to ride it.
 

ginganinja

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#9
O.k, so I have looked at the community opinions on this matter, and agree that both DLC and Deck Knight have a point. While it is certainly possible to get a RM movepool of 25, doing so unduly impacts on the variety this CAP can get within its movepool. Therefore I have decided to increase the RM limit to 29 since I think this is a suitable balance between constraining the number of RM's allowed, without handicapping variety. Seeing as (in my humble opinion), the Upper movepool limit is mostly flavor anyway (and no-one really discussed it), I will be keeping the total movepool limit to 60.

Thank you to all the people that gave me your various thoughts and opinions, both here and on irc. I will be seeing you all in the movepool submission thread!
 

DetroitLolcat

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#10
No surprise here, the limit stays as is. My most recent post right before ginga's explains why 29 is a good limit for Restricted Moves, and 60 total moves will give everyone plenty of room to customize their movepools as they see fit.

See you all in the movepool submission thread! We're almost done with CAP 18!
 
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