CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[jas61292]

Continuing our work to shape CAP 18's Movepool, now it is time to discuss which competitive non-attacking moves should be available to this Pokemon. Once again, our Movepool Leader is ginganinja and he will be leading this discussion and evaluating arguments for or against various attacking moves. At the conclusion of this thread, he will present a finalized list of attacking moves that users will be allowed to include in their Final Movepool submissions. When posting in this thread, be sure to focus your arguments toward ginganinja and his questions, as his is the primary authority in deciding the final list of allowed and disallowed moves.

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Movepool Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He/she will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:

• Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
• Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
• Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
• Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
• Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
• Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.

This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he/she deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

Rules for posting in this thread:

• All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
• It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
• The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if he/she feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
• Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

This thread will be open for discussion as soon as ginganinja posts his opening remarks and questions for discussion.

--------------------

CAP18 so far:

Leadership Team:

DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader

Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:

• How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
• Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
• What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
• How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
• Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
• Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
• Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?

Pokemon CAP18 should threaten:

It's important that, first and foremost, we threaten the Pokemon and strategies that our core has no answer to. In general, the degree to which a Pokemon threatens Latias and Lucario should be the degree to which CAP18 threatens that Pokemon.

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

When I say "to a lesser extent", I mean that CAP 18 should be a threatening presence to this Pokemon, but it should not be an ultra-reliable counter. CAP18 should perform well against every Pokemon on this list, but that doesn't mean CAP18 needs to unconditionally switch into and force out these Pokemon. It should likely be able to do one or the other, but countering all of these Pokemon is neither feasible nor recommended.

CAP18 should be able to handle, either by switching in or 1v1, the Pokemon that defeat at least one of our core members that the other one cannot switch into. For example, Mega Charizard X is a Pokemon that defeats Lucario 1v1 that Latias can't switch into. If Multiscale is active, so is Dragonite. Gyarados, before it Mega Evolves, fits this bill.

*With a weakness to Ground, this will be a difficult task. We should threaten these Pokemon as well as we can, but we should not expect to counter Ground-types, but rather defeat them 1v1.

Pokemon CAP18 should be threatened by:

We should be okay with CAP 18 losing to Pokemon that the rest of our core handles well. For example, Latias is a tremendous answer to Rotom-W, and CAP18 is weak to Electric and does not have a STAB that can hit Rotom-W even neutrally. Rotom-W isn't particularly bothered by Fire- and Water-type support options, so making Rotom-W anything other than a threat to CAP18 is fitting a square peg into a round hole. Keldeo is a similar example, although Keldeo is so commonly paired with Pursuit Aegislash (the bane of this core) that it's not safe to let Keldeo counter this CAP.

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.
Walls with minimal offensive presence: Chansey, Blissey.

Pokemon not on either of our threatlists should be overly specifically threatening or threatened by CAP 18. Just because a Pokemon is not in the second list doesn't mean it is our prerogative to beat it. The same goes with Pokemon not in the first list: we shouldn't be expected to lose to every Pokemon that we don't threaten.

Typing: Fire / Water
Abilities: Analytic / Infiltrator / ???
Stats: 100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe

Attacking Moves

Required

Return/Frustration
Hidden Power
Façade
Hyper Beam
Round
Giga Impact

Allowed

Fire Blast
Aura Sphere
Hydro Pump
Lava Plume
Scald
Flamethrower
Surf
U-Turn
Flash Cannon
Power Gem
Clear Smog
Overheat
Sludge Wave

Disallowed

Grass Moves
Air Slash
Electric Special Attacking Coverage
Dragon Special Attacking Coverage
Ice Special Attacking Coverage
Dark Special Attacking Coverage
Ghost Special Attacking Coverage
Fairy Special Attacking Coverage
Bug Special Attacking Coverage
Water Spout
Eruption
Volt Switch
Knock Off
Psyshock
Fiery Dance
Acid Spray
Belch
Sludge Bomb
Other coverage moves over 80 BP

 

[ginganinja]

O.k with the Attacking Movepool thread out of the way, its time to start up the Non Attacking Movepool thread, to see what else we can give this CAP.

As before, I want to start off with a limited number of moves that are initially disallowed, so as to get the discussion that we need. With that said however, I am going to initially restrict offensive stat boosting moves from the table. I feel that creating a boosting sweeper takes away from the role of Lucario within this core, as well as directly impacting on what can or cannot check us. I am fully aware that there are some boosting moves still on the table, and I while I still would prefer them disallowed, I felt that it would be best for everyone concerned if people wanted to defend these more "defensive" stat boosting moves.

Please remember our checks and counters list, as there are several non attacking moves out there that outright destroy them as checks or counters, so please be careful. Also I would like to remind everyone that this thread is an excellent opportunity for this CAP to make itself even more useful to the Core of Latias and Lucario, as well as potentially increasing its niche beyond the rather general "blow shit up and check Aegislash while doing it" niche it currently has now.

Also, if there is a particular boosting move that I have initially disallowed that you believe should not be, feel free to post your reasoning within this thread, and I will take this into account as to where these moves should stay disallowed.

Pending

Needs Discussion

Required

Toxic
Sleep Talk
Rest

Allowed

Will-O-Wisp
Memento
Healing Wish
Destiny Bond
Protect
Reflect
Stealth Rock
Pain Split
Baton Pass
Haze
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Swagger
Heal Bell
Refresh
Aromatherapy
Roar / Whirlwind

Disallowed

Calm Mind
Quiver Dance
Rock Polish / Agility etc
Shell Smash
Growth
Nasty Plot
Tail Glow
Taunt
Reliable Recovery
Hazard Removal (Defog, Rapid Spin)
Parting Shot
Wish
All Boosting Moves save for Flame Charge
CounterCoat
Kings Shield
Light Screen
Trick / Switcheroo
Hazards: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web
Ingrain
Super Fang
Status Moves including but not limited to Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Spore,
Glare, Thunder Wave
Flame Charge
Sandstorm / Hail / Trick Room
Encore
Disable
Spiky Shield
Magic Coat
Topsy Turvy
Perish Song
Yawn

Controversial

Substitute

Righto, lets get things moving, remember to post well reasoned arguments, and most importantly to have fun within this process. Lets get to work everyone.

 

[Albacore]

Okay, I'd like to discuss a few moves or types of moves for our CAP :

• Will-O-Wisp should be allowed, I don't think I need to explain why that is.
• Boosting moves in general should be disallowed. We want a nuke, not a sweeper, and giving this Pokemon a way to boost speed will mess with Latias and Keldeo. By extension, we should disallow Flame Charge, Agility, Dragon Dance, and anything else that boosts Speed or Special Attack. I don't see any reason not to give our CAP attack boosting moves, since we've decided our only notable physical attack would be U-Turn. Defense boosting moves sound equally pointless, so shouldn't be dissallowed.
• I think we should disallow all reliable recovery, since that would make our CAP far too hard to take down, and stop bulky waters like Rotom-W from countering us. Wish is a bit of a special case, and, although you can make the case for it supporting Lucario, it also supports more bulky attackers more, so it should be disallowed too. Pain Split, however, should be allowed : it would be a very unreliable and risky move since our CAP has high HP. It can be used against the blobs, though, so isn't ideal. But it alone won't let us beat them, unlike Recover (if paired up with Substitute)
• Rapid Spin and Defog should obviously be disallowed, since they overlap with Latias's purpose in the core.
• Anything that can beat the blobs should be avoided, so disallow Trick and maybe Taunt too (although Seismic Toss may let them wear us down eventually, so Taunt may well be fine)
• I like the idea of using phazing moves to force and abuse switches as long as they do not interfere with our counters. For that reason, Yawn may be nice to give our CAP, even though it technically does stop Rotom, Latias and Keldeo from safely countering us. Perish Song could be interesting, but we probably won't be able to hit the switch-in since the opponent can just switch out on the last turn. Encore, Confuse Ray, Disable and Torment can also be interesting pseud-phazing options. Although the latter two mess up Specs Keldeo, the CAP will still have to take a ton of damage in the process. I don't really see much reason to dissallow those moves since they're so niche, they hardly break the CAP.
• Stealth Rock may be a decent idea, since it would be useful after a Defog to facilitate a Lucario sweep. It also doesn't really mess with our counters, so it doesn't seem detrimental to the concept. I'd be tempted to allow it, but it still comes off as a bit of a generic good move. Spikes should be disallowed simply because they are useless for a core which includes a Defogger, and could benefit one containing Excadrill, for instance. Stick Web should also be disallowed because it's Sticky Web and would probably break the CAP.
• Dual Screens could be a decent way to support Latias and Lucario, but will give offensive counters that should break through a tough time. Since the core is more vulnerable to physical attacks and most supposed counters to the CAP are specially offensive, I think we should be more prone to allowing Reflect than Light Screen.
• Counter could be a decent answer to Azumarill and Mawile, but burning them just sounds better. Mirror Coat sounds useless. I'd disallow both.
• Weather-inducing moves don't really support the core, so I'm not sure why they would be allowed. Still, I don't see them breaking the CAP either, since it's a little too slow to abuse those moves. Sunny Day may well make our CAP too powerful, but Rain Dance will let Water-types counter us a lot more easily, and so would mess with our checks-and-counters list a lot less.
• Thunder Wave should probably be disallowed. Although it technically doesn't stop any of our supposed countering us, it pretty much cripples them indefinitely. Besdes most of the things our CAP should threaten are either already quite slow and don't care much for paralysis, or are Ground-types and therefore immune. Nothing faster than us we want to threaten can take a Hydro Pump well anyway, so Thunder Wave just seems useless for our core.
• Heal Bell would give a hard time to Chansey and doesn't help against our threatlist, but it can help a burnt Lucario, so it may be considered. But I think we should probably disallow it.
• I don't think our CAP is quite fast enough to pull off sacrificial support. Besides, Latias does this better with Healing Wish. But I guess this is an offensive core, and giving setup opportunities to Lucario is always nice. One sacrificial support move I do feel like we should allow is Memento. It could provide very good support for Lucario without destroying our counters or being redundant, though I'm a little afraid of it being used to support other sweepers not named Lucario. But it does work particularly well for it due to its late-game sweeper status, so it would be pro-concept.
• Baton Pass could be good if we want to pass Substitutes to Lucario and that's really all it does. But if we do give it Baton Pass, we should avoid Attack and Defense boosting moves, and for the love of god disallow Ingrain. We have enough problems with BP teams already.
• Leech Seed is completely flavorless and makes little sense on something this offensive, and helps defeat the Blobs which is bad. Sleep Powder is more fitting on an offensive team, but the flavor is still not there, and it may be a little too good.
• Parting Shot falls under generic good to me. Although it can provide support for Lucario, I just think it's too useful a move for this CAP in general, and will be easily abused, especially on a Scarfed set. I don't feel comfortable allowing it.
• Haze could be good as a practically useless flavor move and beats BP
• Swagger has already been disallowed, let's not pour salt in the wound.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Before I begin, I should point out that Switcheroo is listed twice in ginganinja's introductory post. Anyway, my initial thoughts are as follows.

Thunder Wave or Glare would be useful in crippling and slowing potential checks to Lucario, but it also would cripple three of CAP 18's listed checks: Keldeo, Latios, and Latias. For that reason, I'm still iffy on whether paralysis inducing moves should be allowed or not.

Sticky Web would be a less troublesome method of accomplishing the same goal as using Thunder Wave without interfering with the utility of Will-O-Wisp. Furthermore, Latios and Latias are immune to it, while Chansey, Blissey, and Rotom-W all do not care about the drop in Speed, leaving only Keldeo as the only check affected by it. However, such slowdown would give Lucario an opportunity to outspeed and hit non-Scarf Keldeo hard [252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 247-292 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery] or outright OHKO with a Justified boost. As such, I am tentatively in favor of allowing Sticky Web.

Will-O-Wisp should require little explanation. Being able to spread burns prolongs the longevity of CAP 18's teammates (particularly Latias) and is a fair trade-off for choosing not to nuke something with Fire Blast or Overheat. Allow Will-O-Wisp.

Any form of reliable recovery (Heal Order, Recover, etc.) should be disallowed. It would be virtually impossible for Chansey and Blissey to break through CAP 18 if it can reliably heal itself, and making it more difficult for Keldeo and the Dragons to check or counter the CAP is inadvisable.

 

[Deck Knight]

Basics:

I'm of the mind that these moves best help us achieve our objectives - some moves are listed, some not.

Reflect: Because this core is so so susceptible to physical attacks, Reflect + Burn gives us two long term-ways to mitigate that problem, with different benefits to using either. Reflect makes Latias' job infinitely easier and also allows Lucario a chance to set up.

Refresh: I think Heal Bell or Aromatherapy is too broad for support, but Refresh allows CAP to heal itself of Toxic status from SubToxic Aegislash.

Will-O-Wisp: This is the only status move I think is worthwhile to have (outside Toxic ofc). Sleep and Paralysis compete with burn or poison, and CAP should really be focused on spreading one of burn or poison.

Parting Shot: The more I think about this move, the more perfect it strikes me. Parting Shot is especially good for allowing Lucario to set up, and it's even more unique in that it can bypass Subs on an Infiltrator set. Parting Shot makes it much easier for Latias to tank hits and Lucario to set up. U-turn or Baton Pass can fulfil similar roles, but I think Parting Shot, if allowed, does the most for us.

 

[L Y F]

I've got huge reservations on Parting Shot, it seems like it puts CAP in a real win-win situation with either nuking something with Analytic Overheat or weakening the switch-in so that Lucario can set up. I feel that U-Turn does the scouting thing enough already, as CAP's attack is paltry, not to mention that CAP has a much faster Parting Shot than Pangoro (the move's only other user) does. I feel like having Parting Shot puts this thing into guaranteed momentum (plus set-up opportunity) territory, not unlike Genesect was in OU.

Also thinking it could destroy the concept as it'd probably work better coupled with a Shell Smash user as opposed to Luke and Lati.

 

[farmer Potato]

Allow Will-o-wisp. This move will allow us to cripple things like Landorus-T and Excadrill that switch in.

Disallow Thunder Wave. None of the threats that we want to quash are extremely fast (save Excadrill in sand), and we risk ruining any Lati@s that switch in on the CAP if we TWave them.

Disallow Amnesia to the purgatory and back. After a single Amnesia, Lati@s, Keldeo, Goodra, Rotom-W find it impossible to threaten us out. I daresay the CAP could even defeat these itself with +2 SpD.

Allow all moves that increase defense. These moves do nothing to hinder our wanted threats, and allow us to tank hits from Mawile, Azumarill, and most Aegislash.

Allow swords Dance; disallow Dragon Dance

Reason I say this is that Swords Dance has a small niche in U-Turning, or maybe Payback if that is chosen as a move in the movepool. Dragon Dance is just dangerous . After one, Lati@s is unable to outspeed without Scarf. Thus, it cannot threaten with a Thunderbolt without getting crushed first.

 

[vyomov]

I agree with Deck Knight on allowing Parting Shot - it allows CAP18 to give Lucario needed set-up opportunities(given how frail he is) and also allows Latias to come in and do her job splendidly.
Defog and Rapid Spin should both be disallowed, because either will make CAP18 very usable on other teams.
I also believe that all boosting moves should be disallowed, since they are detrimental to the concept of supporting the core, but we should definitely allow some form of Hazards(such as Toxic Spikes), since they force Team 1 to remove them(via Rapid Spin/Defog) which can give Luke a set-up opportunity

 

[Salt]

Memento: I like this move. It seems perfect for us, as CAP can punch holes with Analytic nukes until the opposing team is sufficiently weakened. Then, Memento away and Lucario can easily set up and clean up. Parting Shot is similar, but I don't feel like it's as much of an ideal choice because Lucario is a lategame sweeper who will probably be brought in only when CAP's job is completed. Memento guarantees a safe switch (if CAP is faster with Parting Shot, Lucario has to switch in on an attack) and lowers the opposing 'mon's stats more. I'm rather impartial on Parting Shot because we have U-turn (but I don't really like U-turn tbh) for momentum and Memento has better potential to be the support move for Lucario's setup imo. Allow Memento.

Also saying that we need to Disallow Rapid Spin/Defog simply because hazard removal is Latias' job and we don't want the potential to take Latias' role away from the core.

 

[Yoshuriken]

Disallow all boosting moves. Boosts to SpA are obviously bad, boosts to attack do nothing, boosts to speed are dangerous to letting CAP sweep, boosts to SpDef can mess with our counters. The only boosting I'd consider is defense, but if we have Will o Wisp and Reflect, defense boosting moves are redundant. Therefore why not just make it easy and disallow them all.

Allow Stealth Rock. SD Luke really needs rocks to sweep. Since CAP is supposed to be a pivot anyway, SR fits in well, and supports the core. It is especially good because in order to set up the SR, we need to remove that on our side first via Latias.

Disallow Hazard Removal. That's Latias' job. Giving it to CAP just means that he might try to do something that Latias does well, instead of what he does well, which is nuking stuff. Furthermore, it gives him much more opportunity to be used outside of the core, which is bad.

Disallow Recovery. Giving him recovery would make him too hard to wear down, and almost render Latias' Defog support unnecessary. That being said, Aqua Ring isn't too bad, because of how often he'll switch. Aqua Ring should be allowed, though I can't see it helping the core much, so it isn't a big deal.

Disallow Status-Relief. If Chansey's choice of damage is Toxic, Chansey is no longer threatening. Good moves of this type are also too broad.

Allow Memento, Allow Healing Wish, Disallow Destiny Bond. The first two give support to Luke to help him set up. They also give a useful niche of deciding between killing yourself or throwing out one last nuke. Destiny Bond on the other hand could let us take down a counter along with CAP, which I don't like.

Disallow Sleep and Paralysis. Both are too likely to damage our counters. Besides, we want to have burn anyway. Confusion I'm not sure about.

Disallow Taunt. Messes up Chansey too much imo. Although Chansey may be able to slowly kill CAP, CAP may be able to slowly kill Chansey. Besides, Chansey would much rather support her team.

Allow Reflect, Disallow Light Screen. Light Screen is a lot like SpDef boosting, which as said can mess with our counters. Reflect however is a lot like Burns, which we already want, and it can support Luke and Latias well, giving one a set-up opportunity and the other improved bulk.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Right, I'm gonna sum up my thoughts on ALL the pending moves. I'll try to be concise!

Defence Boosting Moves: Acid Amour , Iron Defence , Cotton Guard, Barrier, Bulk Up: I see no problem with allowing Defense boosting moves. There is also the option of a pseudo-defense boosting move in Baby Doll Eyes. I mentioned it in irc as a joke, but as long as we're considering physical defense it wouldn't be a bad idea to mention it. For those who can't recall what BDE does, it's priority attack down on the opponent.

Hazards: Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web: Even though hazard support is one of the only things this core lacks, I don't believe it's necessary for CAP18. Conversely Toxic Spikes would be detrimental to some of it's functionality, for example, being unable to burn physical attackers, therefore disallow Toxic Spikes. The other hazard moves I don't have a problem with, but remain unconvinced either way.

Hazard Removal: Rapid Spin / Defog: Disallow. Takes the utility aspect away from Latias.

Attack Stat Boosts: Dragon Dance, Swords Dance: No harm in allowing Sword Dance, but wholly unnecessary. Disallow dragon dance, CAP may enjoy the speed boost.

Other stat boosting moves: Amnesia, Coil, Cosmic Power, Curse: Most stat boosting moves I would be inclined to disallow unless they have an extremely limited niche, such as Coil, acc+ helps with nailing the hydro pump/fire blasts. But others speed boosts and sp.att boost in particular I feel strongly about disallowing, and sp.def boosts to a lesser extent.

Healing: Heal Order, Milk Drink, Softboiled, Roost, Recover, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Pain Split: Disallow Recovery moves, (Wish included). Pain Split is the only one I feel would be safe enough to allow.

Status Healing: Aromatherapy, Heal Bell, Refresh: Disallow Status healing. Messes with blobs too much, plus I can see CAP18 being really hard to beat, so allowing him to be status'd would make sure he's still balanced.

Sacrificial Support Moves: Memento, Healing Wish, Destiny Bond: Disallow Healing Wish, it doesn't fit well on such an offensive typing in my opinion. Memento as previously stated could give Lucario a nice chance to set up, I have no problem with allowing this. No issues with DB either.

Status: Hypnosis, Spore, Sleep Powder, Glare, Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Lovely Kiss, Yawn, etc: Disallow all status except for Yawn, potentially forces a switch allowing Analytic's boost coming into play.

Counter Coat: Seems unnecessary when we have WoW and tonnes of firepower, disallow.

Baton Pass: Disallow, I'm hoping we don't have too many boosts to pass on in the first place.

Flame Charge: Disallow, since it wouldn't be too difficult to get two off and get the same boosts as agility.

Encore: Allow, spoiling set up sweepers that give us trouble, Dragonite and Mega-Gyarados. Also has the bonus of forcing switches for analytic boosts. I'll also mention Perish Song here, to which I say allow for the same reasons.

Disable: Disallow, would cause problems for Keldeo trying to check us.

Detect / Protect / Kings Shield / Spiky Shield: Allow Detect/Protect, all pokemon get Protect at least, why should this be any different? Disallow King's Shield/Spiky Shield.

Ingrain: While Ingrain/Aqua Ring makes sense flavour-wise, I say disallow, CAP18 could shrug off life orb recoil and combined with protect/subs keep itself reasonably healthy. Not even going to mention the BP advantages.

Screens: Allow Reflect, since it's niche at best with us having access to WoW, but disallow Light Screen... although there are plenty more viable screen users out there, Klefki for example could easily complement this core with screens and entry hazards.

Parting Shot: Allow, for the same reason as Mememto. Giving Luke a free turn to set up or Latias to defog/roost/CM is positive for the core.

Rain Dance / Hail / Sunny Day / Trick Room: Disallow, not applicable to the core, TR is more harmful than helpful. Rain Dance and Sunny Day boosts HydroPump/FireBlast at the cost of the other, not ideal, but still at least there is a visible trade off.

Roar / Whirlwind: Disallow, CAP18 will force enough switches already, racking up further hazard damage is unnecessary. Plus I would rather we hinder set-up sweepers with Haze/Clear Smog.

Super Fang: Disallow, even though the blobs can heal off the damage, they'd remain 'safer threats' without Super Fang.

Substitute/Swagger: Allow, all pokemon can learn these moves, this one should be no different.

Trick / Switcheroo: Disallow, steals things like assault vest from goodra and eviolite from chansey.

Taunt: Disallow, for the Chansey/Blissey sets that don't carry Seismic Toss.

Haze: Allow, we don't want any set up sweepers, and it's unlikely we'll be carrying set up moves ourselves.


TLDR; Allow some, Disallow others.

What I'm really interested in, is further discussion for Encore/Yawn/Perish Song. What others think about forcing set up sweepers and walls to switch, if it would be too overpowered, given our analytic boost and already impressive firepower. So it's a question of whether this is too much of an advantage?

EDIT: Put a little more reasoning in.

 

[hellothisismuffin]

I think that hazards, particularly Spikes and Stealth Rock, can benefit the core because (as stated by vyomov above) the other team would need to switch into a Rapid Spinner giving Lucario another switch in.
I'm also for Allowing Memento as the CAP would benefit the team further

 

[CerberusSONE]

Completely support arguments for allowing Parting Shot and disallowing hazard removal moves (Defog and Rapid Spin).
I think Allowing Aqua Ring would give our concept a reasonable amount of recovery. In this case, it would mean that we must be vulnerable to damaging-status which, in this case, is only Toxic. CAP18 can be vulnerable to Paralysis as well. In short, I think we should Disallow Status-Healing moves. If we need to be threatened by Chansey and Blissey, but also be able to use Aqua Ring, being Badly Poisoned through and through would allow us to fit our threats.
Disallow Ingrain. It does provide minimal recovery, but it traps the Pokemon and prevents proper switchings.
Allow Pain Split. It gives our concept the ability to recover when we're low on health. One apsect of Pain Split that undermines our threat list is the ability to lower Blissey's health and possibly fully regain health. However, the move still has its merits and should be allowed.
Allow SOME Status Inducing moves: We can really threaten Mawile and Mega-Mawile with Will O' Wisp, which nullifies its Huge Power.
Inducing burns can also help in preventing any OHKO's/2HKO's from our Ground targets.
Disallow Hypnosis and Sleep inducing moves. These moves can be useful, but niche, undermining ChestoRest strategies whose presences are dwindling. Inducing sleep on Chansey and Blissey may undermine our goal to be threatened by it.
Allow Confuse Ray. Disallow Swagger and Flatter. Being straightforward, Confuse Ray gives us the chance to prevent our opponent from setting up or attacking. It also gives us the ability to let a teammate switch in and set up and attack.
Allow Taunt and Torment: Taunt prevents Aegislash from using Autotomize or King's Shield, as well as for other Pokemon setting up.
Torment doesn't give us as much support, but prevents consecutive Spikes set up, which Taunt also does. It also prevents consecutive stat-boosting moves, which Taunt also does. It wouldn't hurt to allow Torment, though.
Disallow Special Defense-boosting moves. Allow Defense-boosting moves.
Giving our concept the ability to boost its defense gives it the necessary bulkiness to take various physical attacks. Raising special defense would be contradictory to our threat list. Rotom-W can no longer 2HKO CAP18 with Volt Switch nor Thunderbolt at full health with +2 SPDEF.
Disallow Memento. Although it does lower our opponent's offensive pressure, our opponent can always switch out and switch in a new Pokemon with just as much offensive pressure. Memento works well only for really late game sweepers that don't have any teammates alive to switch out with.

(Apologies for the lack of bolded text. Opera browser seems to block any text edits.)

 

[FMD]

All Defense boosts should be disallowed as we already have exceptional bulk.
Attack boosts may be allowed since they really won't have that much of an impact on our 45 base Atk.
Hazards would make it that much harder to counter 18, so I highly disapprove of them being in its movepool.
King's Shield and Spiky Shield are just a bit overboard and I think they should not be allowed. Protect/Detect is acceptable, however.
Any healing except Pain Split would make us too hard to take out, especially considering that Draco Meteor Latios is a counter for us.
Yawn and Perish Song allow interesting ways to force a switch to get a free turn of Analytic and I believe they should be allowed.
Memento and Healing Wish should be allowed as they better bind the core, but I am unsure of Destiny Bond.
Substitute would produce 101 HP Substitutes, making it that much harder for Chansey to successfully counter us. I feel this move should be STRONGLY disallowed as it drastically weakens our best counter.
Hypnosis and Lovely Kiss should be allowed, Spore disallowed and Sleep Powder can go either way.
Glare, Thunder Wave and Stun Spore are all counterproductive for the Analytic set, but work beautifully for the Infiltrator set. Allowed.
Leech Seed should most definitely be disallowed as it completely defeats any chance of the blobs effectively countering it, especially when combined with Substitute.
Trick/Switcheroo would be an effective way to force out a Pokemon while also ensuring it will provide an Analytic boost in the future by giving it a Choice Scarf. It will be a rather niche set at best, but it fits the flavor and works well with both abilities. I believe it should be allowed.
Aromatherapy, Heal Bell and Refresh give the CAP a good secondary role in the core while taking some pressure off of Latias to heal the team. I would like to see this allowed.
Haze would be good for handling Clefable and the other Fairies that rely on boosts. Clear Smog also does this while also providing a (very) small bit of damage and can't be blocked by Taunt. I feel both should be allowed.
Taunt would really screw over Chansey, so I think it's best we not allow this.
Don't give us Baton Pass. At all. Even a single wrong move gets onto movepool with Baton Pass as an option, it could entirely change what the "best" role for 18 is and become entirely anti-concept.
Hazard removal (Rapid Spin and Defog) are supposed to be something Latias is handling in this core. I don't really see any reason to have either on 18. If you really want to allow Rapid Spin, go ahead I guess. :/
Parting Shot can do very well to help Lucario and also has rather good flavor to it. I'd like to see this allowed on our movepool.
Weather really does little to help or hinder the core, but it greatly increases 18's options. Also, there aren't really many Fire or Water types that DON'T have their respective weathers. I feel it should be allowed.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Substitute would produce 101 HP Substitutes, making it that much harder for Chansey to successfully counter us. I feel this move should be STRONGLY disallowed as it drastically weakens our best counter.

If this is true, I change my stance on Substitute. Even though almost all pokemon can learn the move by TM.. Why, oh why, did we have to be able to make 101 subs? ;_;

 

[Tarontos]

If our pourpose is to set up so lucario can sweep then we should slow baton pass if only to pass substistute, allow baton pass and substitute.
Edit. And almost every TM learning Pokemon has substitute
And it looks like no boosting moves so why not

 

[alexwolf]

The notion that Heal Bell / Aromatherapy would make Chansey and Blissey struggle against the CAP is ridiculous. Toxic not only has more PPs than those moves, but Seimsic Toss is a perfect way for the blobs to beat the CAP too, provided we don't give it reliable recovery. And let's not talk about Refresh as if it's a competitively viable move. The only Pokemon that has used Refresh competitively in 5th and 6th gen in OU was Politoed, and this happened because Politoed was the #1 most important Pokemon to keep alive for its team in OU, as without it the team was effectively crippled. So, if we want a way to deal with status from Pokemon such as Heatran and Aegislash, Heal Bell or Aromatherapy are needed. Also, healing burns or paralysis from Latias, which often tanks elementary attacks with secondary effects, is really nice in terms of team support. Allow Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, for providing unique support to our core, without messing with any of our checks and counters.

Disallow Parting Shot. Yes Parting Shot helps Lucario set up. But you know what else does Parting Shot help? Every single boosting sweeper, especially bulky ones, and Lucario isn't one of them. There are much better sweepers to take advantage of Parting Shot and if we put Parting Shot in our movepool, the only thing we will manage is to make sure that there are way better partners for the CAP than Lucario.

Disallow Taunt. Allows the CAP to shut down the recovery of Chansey, which also lacks Leftovers, making it very easy to wear down and eventually overwhelm. Taunt CAP would basically eliminate stall from the face of the earth for no good reason.

Allow any kind of phazing, such as Whirlwind, Roar, Haze, and Perish Song. Prevents dangerous sweepers from setting up and wrecking our core, without messing with any of our checks and counters. All of those moves are mostly outclassed by WoW anyway, which deals with most set up sweepers that would want to set up on the CAP, but all those moves help deal with Unaware CM Clefable, an otherwise troubling Pokemon for the core.

Disallow Rapid Spin and Defog. We already have an anti-hazard Pokemon in our core, we don't want one more, as this would mean that CAP's and Latias's roles overlap, discouraging them from being used together.

Allow Stealth Rock. The more self-sufficient our core is the better. And it's not like the CAP would make for the best or more reliable SR setter anyway, as it is SR weak, is checked by common Defog users, namely Latios and Latias, and usually has better things to do on forced switches.

Allow Pain Split, but disallow any kind of reliable recovery. Reliable recovery is a no, especially considering i want Heal Bell and Aromatherapy, as this would mean that Chansey and Blissey no longer counter the CAP. Furthermore, reliable recovery lets the CAP outlast some of its checks that lack recovery, such as Keldeo and Rotom-W. Remember, the SR weakness is supposed to make the CAP easy to wear down, and this is how we should keep it. Yes to Pain Split because it's a harmless way to take advantage of Chansey and Blissey without preventing them from countering us, so even though the CAP still can't get past them, it can take advantage of them in a way. Not to mention that this move would be almost unusable on such a high HP Pokemon, outside of the taking advantage of the blobs gimmick.

Disallow any boosting move. Others have already said anything that needs to be said, the CAP doesn't need any boosting move to do the things we want it to.

Disallow Trick and Switcheroo, as they badly cripple Chansey and Blissey.

Disallow Thunder Wave and Nuzzle, as they badly cripple checks such as Latias, Latios, and Keldeo, without beating any of the Pokemon we want to.

 

[Salt]

Baton Pass is a valid option as long as we don't allow anything that can be abused with it. Boosting moves are almost certainly going to be disallowed, and Ingrain is completely ridiculous, so there aren't any foreseeable issues with allowing Baton Pass. Passing Substitutes actually could have useful applications with the core, as Lucario will appreciate a 101 HP substitute. With SubPass, CAP 18 isn't getting around Chansey, but rather is helping Lucario do so. As a momentum gaining tool, Baton Pass is almost completely outclassed by U-turn, but having an alternative to U-turn for movepools is good for people who don't like U-turn (namely me)

Allow Baton Pass and Substitute

 

[dwarfstar]

The notion that Heal Bell / Aromatherapy would make Chansey and Blissey struggle against the CAP is ridiculous. Toxic not only has more PPs than those moves, but Seimsic Toss is a perfect way for the blobs to beat the CAP too, provided we don't give it reliable recovery. And let's not talk about Refresh as if it's a competitively viable move. The only Pokemon that has used Refresh competitively in 5th and 6th gen in OU was Politoed, and this happened because Politoed was the #1 most important Pokemon to keep alive for its team in OU, as without it the team was effectively crippled. So, if we want a way to deal with status from Pokemon such as Heatran and Aegislash, Heal Bell or Aromatherapy are needed. Also, healing burns or paralysis from Latias, which often tanks elementary attacks with secondary effects, is really nice in terms of team support. Allow Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, for providing unique support to our core, without messing with any of our checks and counters.

Disallow Parting Shot. Yes Parting Shot helps Lucario set up. But you know what else does Parting Shot help? Every single boosting sweeper, especially bulky ones, and Lucario isn't one of them. There are much better sweepers to take advantage of Parting Shot and if we put Parting Shot in our movepool, the only thing we will manage is to make sure that there are way better partners for the CAP than Lucario.

Disallow Taunt. Allows the CAP to shut down the recovery of Chansey, which also lacks Leftovers, making it very easy to wear down and eventually overwhelm. Taunt CAP would basically eliminate stall from the face of the earth for no good reason.

Allow any kind of phazing, such as Whirlwind, Roar, Haze, and Perish Song. Prevents dangerous sweepers from setting up and wrecking our core, without messing with any of our checks and counters. All of those moves are mostly outclassed by WoW anyway, which deals with most set up sweepers that would want to set up on the CAP, but all those moves help deal with Unaware CM Clefable, an otherwise troubling Pokemon for the core.

Disallow Rapid Spin and Defog. We already have an anti-hazard Pokemon in our core, we don't want one more, as this would mean that CAP's and Latias's roles overlap, discouraging them from being used together.

Allow Stealth Rock. The more self-sufficient our core is the better. And it's not like the CAP would make for the best or more reliable SR setter anyway, as it is SR weak and usually has better things to do on forced switches.

Allow Pain Split, but disallow any kind of reliable recovery. Reliable recovery is a no, especially considering i want Heal Bell and Aromatherapy, as this would mean that Chansey and Blissey no longer counter the CAP. Furthermore, reliable recovery lets the CAP outlast some of its checks that lack recovery, such as Keldeo and Rotom-W. Remember, the SR weakness is supposed to make the CAP easy to wear down, and this is how we should keep it. Yes to Pain Split because it's a harmless way to take advantage of Chansey and Blissey without preventing them from countering us, so even though the CAP still can't get past them, it can take advantage of them in a way. Not to mention that this move would be almost unusable on such a high HP Pokemon, outside of the taking advantage of the blobs' gimmick.

Disallow any boosting move. Others have already said anything that needs to be said, the CAP doesn't need any boosting move to do the things we want it to.

^I'm 100% behind all of this. Now for the rest of the list...

Allow all forms of entry hazards. Alexwolf's reasoning for Stealth Rock applies here.

Allow all sacrificial support moves. Memento provides golden setup opportunities for Lucario, and Healing Wish can revitalize a near-dead one to make our job easier. The presence of Healing Wish could also potentially free up a moveslot on Latias to run a third offensive move or Roost alongside Defog, Draco Meteor, and Psyshock/Thunderbolt. Destiny Bond doesn't scream "WE WANT THIS" like the other two do, but it does have some interesting utility, and I would like to point out that the idea that it ought to be disallowed because it takes down a counter along with CAP18 is pretty meaningless. CAP's counters are mostly things that Latias and/or Lucario can deal with pretty well anyway, and taking out this CAP counter means a dead CAP. Not exactly a free victory!

Disallow all status-inducing moves except Toxic/WoW. The utility for some of these is very limited, and it just becomes options for the sake of options. The notable exceptions here are Spore and the high-accuracy paralysis moves, which just seem like too much. Free paralysis is at least as useful to other partners as it it so our core, and actually fucks with some of our checks as well (notably Keldeo, who can now be smacked around by Sludge Wave without much difficulty). Sleep shuts down many of our checks and counters completely for a couple of turns, and that seems like a mindless buff to me.

Disallow Counter and Mirror Coat. Mirror Coat allows us to murder Keldeo/Lati@s/Goodra and whatever Rotom brings in with Volt Switch, and Counter does the same with Mega-Gyarados (which we sort of check right now due to WoW). I feel like this is a more roundabout approach to an offensive buff, and we've already got what we need on that end.

Disallow Baton Pass. It provides very little utility in my view, since we (ideally) won't have any boosting moves and we already have U-turn for pivoting (with the additional benefit of chip damage). Options for the sake of options. No.

Allow Encore. Chansey and Blissey can still do things to us thanks to Seismic Toss, so this move doesn't remove them as counters, and Lucario won't want to switch in on a guaranteed 100 damage (I mean, a stiff breeze knocks him over as it is, so taking additional damage is to be avoided). Encore DOES force a lot of switches, however, which can be exploited by all three of our core members.

Allow Detect and Protect; disallow King's Shield and Spiky Shield. The latter two provide extra effects that just seem like mini-buffs thrown on for the sake of doing so, whereas Protect and Detect do not. (An aside: shouldn't Protect be moved to the "required" section, since literally every Pokemon that learns TM moves can use it?)

Disallow Ingrain and Aqua Ring. Ingrain could actually hurt us, since CAP needs to be able to pivot, and Aqua Ring just doesn't give us enough to justify a moveslot.

Disallow screens. Light Screen lets CAP beat its own counters, and Reflect doesn't do especially much for us that WoW doesn't already do.

Disallow Trick Room. This would not be beneficial to our core, and it would present CAP18 as a nice partner to entirely different Pokemon. I don't care about the actual weather moves one way or the other.

Disallow Super Fang. The utility is questionable on everything except the blobs and maybe Goodra; we do more to everything else with Analytic-boosted attacks on the switch and we don't want to smack our counters. CAP going all facehugger on them to bite would be adorable, though.

Allow Substitute. It's no less manageable for Blissey and Chansey than anything else with 101 HP Subs, and we damage them less than some of those others. (An aside: shouldn't Substitute be moved to the "required" section, since literally every Pokemon that learns TM moves can use it?)

Disallow Trick and Switcheroo. As lovely as these would be flavor-wise, they provide us with a free opportunity to neutralize Chansey and Blissey.


I'm kind of on the fence about the utility of Torment. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Impy]

Tail Glow could have been interesting, but I can see why you'd want to shy away from powerful boosting moves on a guy like this. I want to throw my lot in with Parting Shot as well, I think it gives CAP tremendous utility as a pivot, and a way to answer pokemon it can't otherwise touch.

Would substitute really be that bad, though? Just about every pokemon can learn it anyways, and it feels like a shame to be able to make 101 subs but not have the move.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Disallow reliable recovery: This is not necessary at all; this is not a walling Pokemon, and it does not need recover or morning sun to perform its tasks. Pain split is a different matter and I am not against Pain Split, but Recvoer, its clones and its weather-based clones are all unnecessary and would simply encourage the use of this CAP in niches it should not have access to nor was designed for in the first place. Plus, Latias can use Wish should it need healing that desperately.

Disallow all boosting moves: Those would simply encourage users to rely on this Pokemon's boost rather than its place in a core, and would turn it either into a dangerous sweeper or powerful wall/tank rather than the bulky offensive pivot it is designed to be. It would simply be detrimental the the success of the CAP.

Allow Will-o-wisp: This move is not only available to virtually every Fire type in existence anyway, but it is a highly effective move for dealing with many Pokemon that would give the Lucario-Latias core trouble on its own. Lucario is fragile and both Latias and this CAP are more specially-defensively oriented, allowing certain physical sweepers and wallbreakers to seriously threaten the core that would be much easier to deal with if they are burned. Examples include Dragon Dance (Mega) Tyranitar - who outspeeds and KOs Lucario after a boost and can easily OHKO the other two core members after the fact - and Azumarill who can most likely OHKO all three members of the core (certainly with a Choice Band) should it not be burned or KOed before it attacks. Sludge Wave hurts Azumarill, yes, but it is risky at best to use it on a switch-in with so many resists to it in the standard metagame - punishing mispredictions badly - and it will not OHKO standard Azumarill even after SR damage.

Allow Substitute: Pretty much everything in the game learns it, and it is a vital move for many defensive or mixed cores. Plus, the ability to create 101 HP substitutes is excellent for a special-attacker in a core, as it allows the user to stay in on Pokemon that would otherwise pose great issues (such as Blissey, Tyranitar and Goodra) and deal with them accordingly. As cores are designed to work well together to deal with each others checks and counters, switching is often required which can become problematic when you factor in entry hazards and the damage you will take from the attacks, however Substitute allows you to scout moves and act in a safer manner instead of taking unnecessary risks.

Additionally, there is nothing making Substitute unmanageable for a decent opponent; it is never considered "overpowered" on other Pokemon who can make 101 HP substitutes, even if Blissey and Chansey find it more difficult to do so, so why should this be any different? As long as this CAP has no boosting moves or reliable recovery, Substitute should be allowed.

Allow Toxic Spikes: Cores that are working well together often force many switches, which is where entry hazards come in handy. Toxic Spikes are useful for limiting the length of time a Pokemon can stay in to threaten the CAP or its core, and due to the number of pokemon who are immune to them and can remove them, they would not be overpowered nor detract from the CAP's ideologies. Plus, in my opinion, they also make sense flavour-wise.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Allow Substitute, Allow Swagger, and Allow Protect. Since almost every pokemon who can learn tms can learn these moves, I see no reason for them to not be allowed.

Disallow Hazard Removal because it removes the point of Latias in the core.

Disallow Taunt because it completely shuts down Chansey and Blissey, who are pokemon we are trying to be threatened by.

 

[FMD]

Why are so many people forgetting that we need to lose to Blissey and Chansey and that a 101 HP Substitute is an AWFUL way to do that? It almost lets us beat the only true counter we have left. We CANNOT afford to have Substitute on this CAP. We couldn't screw Chansey over harder if we gave 18 Heal Block. Substitute is ENTIRELY anti-concept because of our HP stat.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Why are so many people forgetting that we need to lose to Blissey and Chansey and that a 101 HP Substitute is an AWFUL way to do that? It almost lets us beat the only true counter we have left. We CANNOT afford to have Substitute on this CAP. We couldn't screw Chansey over harder if we gave 18 Heal Block. Substitute is ENTIRELY anti-concept because of our HP stat.

Substiute is preety much on every pokemon, so by that logic any pokemon with a base HP stat of 100 or more counters Blissey and Chansey (Behold my newset creation, a Wailmer that counters the pink blobs). Also substitute is again on preety much every pokemon, I'm shocked its not required. Also they can still beat us through stall

 

[jas61292]

Disallow Parting Shot. Yes Parting Shot helps Lucario set up. But you know what else does Parting Shot help? Every single boosting sweeper, especially bulky ones, and Lucario isn't one of them. There are much better sweepers to take advantage of Parting Shot and if we put Parting Shot in our movepool, the only thing we will manage is to make sure that there are way better partners for the CAP than Lucario.

This. This 100 times over. While I will comment on other moves a bit later, I just want to take the time to emphasize this as much as I can. Yes, Parting Shot seems to fit in our role. But we have to remember that our goal is not to make a Pokemon to fit a general role. It is to make one to fit a core. That means both making it work in the core, and making it advantageous to it to do so. Parting Shot is a stupidly powerful move in the right hands, and, while it helps Lucario, it helps every single sweeper in the game (hell, every single Pokemon in the game, for what its worth), and many much more so than Lucario (specifically bulkier guys). And of those who it helps more than Lucario, many of them are in the exact same role as it is.

While Parting Shot might help it fill its role better, it will destroy any and all reason to use it in the specified core, as it will just become an excellent partner/supporter for every single sweeper in the game, and especially those in direct competition for Lucario. So, I think it is absolutely imperative that we Disallow Parting Shot.

(Imperative enough to make me use bold there, despite my utter distaste for it :P)

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I know so far there are a lot of people that disagree with me, but I think we should allow Spiky Shield. Our physical defense is the weaker of our two stats, and Spiky Shield alongside great prediction could help us against physical Aegislash that has already set up. Latias is weaker defensively, so having a form of protection that helps against physical attackers seems like a logical move. Reflect, which could help against physical attacks, however, I think is a bit too much. Doubling your defense I think is much more dangerous than having the opponent potentially losing 1/8th HP for one turn, and potentially once every two turns, but that's a stretch. So, I think we should disallow Reflect. Not to mention that setting up a reflect after a physical Aegislash has set up is not as effective as Spiky Shield, seeing as shadow sneak would move before Reflect but after Spiky Shield.

For those who fear that Spiky Shield is just generically too good, my argument would be that having the opponent risk 1/8 HP damage for a physical attack once or twice isn't that impressive, seeing as it likely won't happen for repeated turns. It may break sashes, but in the end Lucario loves having sashes broken...

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Spiky Shield is an absolute must, but I'm trying to see if anyone else thinks that its benefits help out CAP18 and the core. If it helps out too much then is might be a risk. But so far the tanky Chesnaught isn't broken with it, so I'm not in the boat that is should be disallowed on the basis that it's better than the standard protect. Certainly Spiky Shield is much less threatening that King's Shield.