CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[capefeather]

Some questions I'd like to ask:

For those typings that don't resist Flying: Why? As ginganinja pointed out, I feel like people are underestimating the potential of WoW Talonflame to screw the pairing, especially combined with Bulk Up.

For those typings that are weak against Fighting: Again, why? I know that Ice/Steel has a super effective STAB against Thundurus, and I know that Focus Blast isn't reliable. However, a typing that's weak against Fighting seems like it's asking to be revenged by Thundurus... and then what?

For those typings that are weak against Rock: I'm not sure I'm a fan of having a Stealth Rock weak typing. It might be worth it if CAP 19 were helpful to Defoggers and spinners such as Lati@s, but people seem to like Fire and that's weak against both of EdgeQuake.

From my last post, if I take out the requirement of not being weak against Fire, the following three submissions fit:

Electric/Poison
Steel/Poison
Steel/Psychic

Two other typings fit:

Steel/Fairy
Ghost/Steel

In return for being weak against Fire, both these types threaten Lati@s, which may pose problems for Sub/Taunt Gyarados. They also resist the STABs of Dragonite and Black Kyurem, forcing them to use Ground- or Fire-type attacks. Both Dragon-types are weak against Stealth Rock and thus will be relatively easy to wear down if they try to check CAP 19. The main disadvantage compared to Electric/Poison and Ghost/Electric is that they don't resist Electric. This could be solved with high special bulk, though. Then again, both typings are known for being generically great...

ANOTHER APPROACH: From my last post, if I don't require resisting Grass, Poison, or Fairy, but still require being neutral to them (as well as Fire), I get these:

Electric/Poison
Electric/Ghost
Electric/Psychic (not submitted thus far)

I suppose the main advantage of Electric/Psychic is that it has STAB that hits Venusaur super effectively. Compared to Electric/Poison, it loses resistances to Bug, Fairy, Grass and Poison, but gains a resistance to Psychic (so Lati@s can't just Psyshock to win) and weaknesses to Ghost and Dark. Compared to Electric/Ghost, again it loses the resistances to Bug and Poison, as well as the immunity to Fighting. It trades the super effective hit on Lati@s for a resistance to Psyshock, and I'm not sure that this is a particularly good trade. None of these like Draco Meteor, either...

 

[NumberCruncher]

Some questions I'd like to ask:

For those typings that don't resist Flying: Why? As ginganinja pointed out, I feel like people are underestimating the potential of WoW Talonflame to screw the pairing, especially combined with Bulk Up.

In most cases, it's either going to go against our overall goal of encouraging Gyarados's set-up opportunities (in the case of Electric), or means we can never get a resistance to Fighting, which is by far the most important resistance to have in this match-up (Rock and Steel).

We also don't need to inherently be good against Flying types to beat Talonflame. As an example, Mandibuzz always wins against Talonflame, because it's Roost and Foul Play keep Talonflame from threatening it, given that at base stats, none of Talonflame's moves can exceed 40% damage. Also, anything faster than Talonflame with a priority move is going to rip through Talonflame's defenses.

Really, the typing discussion should be more focused on actually forcing the decision we set out in the CAP description, namely creating a Pokemon that the opponent might be disuaded from killing it. In that respect, we should focus on making the weak match-ups of the CAP be as close to the set-up opportunities of Gyarados as possible.

 

[Boss jr.]

For those typings that are weak against Rock: I'm not sure I'm a fan of having a Stealth Rock weak typing. It might be worth it if CAP 19 were helpful to Defoggers and spinners such as Lati@s, but people seem to like Fire and that's weak against both of EdgeQuake.

I'll concede that a rock weakness it not desirable because of StealthRocks. But a Fire/Electric could help out Defoggers in a way. As it can be given any number of extremely useful abilities that would make it that much more threatening. The rock weakness isn't awesome but the unique type coverage is. It's biggest advantage is that depending on the utility that's most important (or both) you will be threatening opponents with either burning them or paralyzing them. Which is cutting either speed or attack. This type combination can be tailored to it's team mates and what it needs to be supporting or threatening.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I've talked about this typing plenty on IRC, but I'm still a fan of Steel/Ground. Steel/Ground is difficult for a lot of opposing Pokemon to set up against, as Mega Charizard X and Mega Mawile are both weak to one of its STABs. Other setup sweepers such as Mega Gyarados and SD Talonflame can be dispatched by coverage conducive to a Steel/Ground type, as can Nasty Plot Thundurus.

A Ground weakness baits in Landorus-Therian, who Gyarados will almost always be able to set up against. Gyarados can set up against Scarf Landorus-Therian locked into just about anything (depending on whether or not it has Mega Evolved), and easily sets up against the pivot set as long as you don't let it hit regular Gyarados with a Stone Edge. This type also resists U-Turn and is immune to Volt Switch, so the opponent is not likely to get a free switch before Gyarados can come in.

A Steel/Ground CAP might not necessarily beat Mega Venusaur, but this typing does not preclude CAP19 from damaging Mega Venusaur significantly before letting Ice Fang Mega Gyarados set up. I will admit this typing doesn't do well against Rotom-W barring specific Abilities and moves, but I don't see that as a huge drawback given that Mega Gyarados can just crush Rotom-Wash with Earthquake or play mindgames with Substitute, Dragon Dance, Volt Switch, and Will-O-Wisp if it desperately needs the boost or Sub. Assault Vest Azumarill might hit a Steel/Ground CAP super-effectively, but again, CAP19 can knock Azumarill into Gyarados' KO range and get Gyara a DD boost if it hasn't Mega Evolved yet.

Steel/Ground lures in Skarmory without question, and it also draws in Gliscor, Quagsire and possibly Ferrothorn. It goes without saying that a Pokemon of this typing is likely to be revenge killed by Scarf Earthquakes and Banded Aqua Jets.

 

[Bughouse]

Time to lock er up. Thank you all for (eventually) sitting on your hands and getting down to the important factors we actually might want in this CAP's typing, rather than just throwing out typings to see what sticks. This is a process that jas61292 more or less pioneered last CAP as typing leader, by opening up the thread with questions and actively trying to guide the types that would ultimately be submitted. I personally liked how jas handled it last CAP and wanted to do the same. I know many people feel it is counterintuitive to not get right into typing suggestions in a typing thread, but ultimately it is called Typing DISCUSSION, and I'm glad we could have one of those before we got down to decision time.

People very clearly focused in on Ground-weak typings. In fact, there wasn't even a typing beyond Ground-weak ones to really consider. In general people did a good job sticking to the attributes we determined to be important. I had around 10 viable typings to consider, of which I am choosing to slate 4.

In choosing typing it is important to keep the CAP's offensive STAB options open and hopefully not too easy to use as set-up fodder itself. If Mega Mawile or Mega Charizard X or heck SubToxic Gliscor can come in and set up on our CAP totally for free, it'll be awfully hard for Gyarados to come in after to do anything. The CAP itself has to exert at least a modicum of offensive presence and that's most easily done with STABs. Being Stealth Rock weak is iffy when pairing with Gyarados, in my opinion, but one such typing gave good reasons to merit making the slate because of their increased offensive potency and their ability to draw in specific Pokemon that Mega Gyarados would be effective against. Finally, I looked down and realized I hadn't included a Steel type yet, which seemed important to a segment of the community. Of those, I picked the one I had heard the best reasoning for, even though it came on IRC instead of the forums. If you don't know enough about it yet, that may be a sign to come visit #cap and get more involved with the discussions there beyond what happens on the forum.

Here is the slate I'm going with, pending approval/addition/subtraction by our TL Pwnemon:

Ghost/Electric
Fire/Fairy
Electric/Poison
Steel/Ground

 

[Stratos]

I talked with srk1214 on irc about the typing slate before he posted it here, so I don't need to enact a ±1. srk1214 summarized anything further I'd wish to say here pretty well. Good discussion, everyone, and I look forward to the vote!