CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Imanalt]

Allow Yawn Lets be honest, what sets will use yawn, especially when you have the option to sketch spore on defensive sets. Yes, it does allow for pseudo phazing, but yawn has never been a particularly great move on any pokes, and necturna would by no means be a great user of it. The only reason I could see to run yawn would be on a set sketching leech seed, something along the lines of sub/seed/yawn/filler, but i couldnt see these sets being broken by any means, so yawn would just encourage more variety.

Disallow Taunt and Encore
Both taunt and encore make skarmory quiver just thinking about them. Getting either of these would make skarmory a very shaky check, as taunt sets could force it to bravebird, and very quickly wear itself down. Encore is even worse. Necturna could come in as skarmory uses spikes or roosts, and proceed to use encore to gain a free turn. Also, both of these moves direct necturna into sets utilizing setup moves, which by my understanding is NOT our goal, although we do want to keep setup as an option.

Allow Glare Thunder Wave and Stun Spore
To be honest, I don't see any of these getting a huge amount of use. They don't allow necturna to beat any of its counters without absurd luck, and they would only be used on defensive sets. Since she already has WoW, I'm not even sure defensive sets would use these, and if they did, it would encourage creative use of sketch, which I think is all for the better.

 

[Project_Mars]

Allow Glare and Stun Spore: Why not give her some paralysis support? Granted I'm still wary of Paraflinch/fusion hax that could arise, so I'm suggesting the two with less than perfect accuracy and suggesting Disallow Thunder Wave and Confuse Ray, which should nip that issue in the bud a bit.

Also, i just noticed, was Tailwind ever considered and found not worth putting on the list or was it forgotten or what? Tailwind might work too, as would Trick Room, and having both would allow for some interesting mind games, although it can still accomplish this by potentially learning both via sketch, i still say Allow Trick Room, and possibly Tailwind, if it comes under consideration. Like i said, i think Necturna should have a good support role movepool, as I think as a single use of sketch would allow for more experimentation with Support movesets vs Attacking movesets. This, to reiterate, means I support Allowing Light Screen, Reflect, Heal Bell, and Wish also, In addition to Allowing Healing Wish and Knock Off, and I'm unsure on Rapid Spin. I would also like to suggest Disallow Refresh, but mainly because of redundancy with Heal Bell. If Heal Bell is Disallowed then I vote Allow Refresh, as having a move to shed status isn't as good as the ability to block one or more entirely.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Keep in mind that Glare is arguably better than Thunder Wave even though it has 10% lower accuracy. It works on all types of Pokemon, whereas Ground-type Pokemon like Gliscor or Landorus can avoid paralysis from Thunder Wave.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Please, for the love of my ever-lasting CAP-induced headache, focus on what I put in "Need Discussion".

Heh.

I don't really have all that much to say. All the moves I honestly care about have already been allotted exactly as I wanted them to be, and everything else really seems like ever so much extraneous fluff.

It's always difficult to ascertain the possible metagame impact of any given non-attacking move, but in the case of Necturna especially, almost none of the moves here do anything much to alienate the counters we've set out for her. Not to mention that there are moves like Spore on the menu already if you count Sketch moves.

On the subject of paralysis moves, I feel obliged to suggest strongly that we don't over-do it on the status moves. We already have Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, and while there's nothing inherently wrong with having the three main status moves ready to call on, there is such a thing as too much versatility. Does this apply to Necturna? Honestly, I'm not really sure. Both Will-O-Wisp and Stun Spore (for sake of argument) are excellent moves, but I feel as though paralysis-inducing moves have a lot more to offer Necturna herself as opposed to Will-O-Wisp, which would see use primarily in supporting the team, given Necturna's low Speed relative to her defensive ability. I'm undecided on them as of yet, and to be perfectly honest there's not an awful lot to decide on. They're all strong moves; almost certainly not broken, because after all, Necturna can only ever carry four moves. The only question is exactly how far we are prepared to push Necturna when it already has infinitely many options available - do we want to give it more very good options?

Taunt is an immensely strong move. That much cannot be disputed. However, it is not entirely clear how far this move would actually go towards benefiting Necturna itself. Nearly everything that threatens Necturna besides maybe Skarmory will be wanting to simply nuke her into oblivion, rather than fooling about with paralysis and recovery, especially if she gets Substitute, and SubQD sets become the norm. It could see use on defensive sets, that's true, but then again the only real use for a defensive Taunt is to stop setup, and while Necturna is immune to Leech Seed, I'm not entirely sure what Spikers or set-up sweepers she is supposed to be switching in on. At any other time, it becomes more or less dead weight. You may well say "Gyarados", but then Necturna is fully capable of shredding teams after a turn of setup anyway, which isn't something that comes easily to Gyarados. I'm leaning towards Disallow at the moment simply because of the inherent strength of the move, and that Necturna does not need it to function properly. As for Encore, as Necturna goes it's a much weaker move. I'd have no problem with allowing it, personally (it's not like it's ever going to be used anyway).

Yawn I'm not quite sure on. It's a relatively nifty little pseudo-hazing tool, which is good egg especially for support sets, or those that want a free turn to set up Toxic Spikes or whatever. Certainly it's better than Circle Throw or Dragon Tail, which incidentally I would like to see disallowed, but that's another argument for another day. I see it as being a weaker move overall than Roar and Whirlwind (and the above) simply because support sets (where you'll see this move) are likely to favour Will-O-Wisp and other status moves, diminishing Yawn's effectiveness, as of course you can't put two statuses on the same Pokemon. It'd probably be a welcome boost for support sets, but I'm not entirely sure to what extent we're supposed to be limiting our "leg-ups" for support sets, since it's rather hard to theorymon on that point.

 

[riekku]

Does anyone think that Necturna here will be completely over-the-top as a defensive spin-blocker if given leech seed?

Consider our spinners:

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/rapid_spin

Besides for Cloyster, Tentacruel, and cryoganal, everything is sent to hell in a hand basket. Now we give it will-o-wisp to burn physical switch-ins and grass types and leech seed to stall out potential counters?

If it can sketch softboiled:

-softboiled
-leech seed
-will-o-wisp
-substitute

spin blocking complete?

If it can sketch sacred fire, we don't need will-o-wisp

-sacred fire
-leech seed
-substitute
-power whip/toxic

good bye everything on stall teams?

Seriously though,

Disallow leech seed

I might make another post about taunt later...as it's a very powerful tool against stall...

 

[Deck Knight]

I think the key to focus on with Necturna is not "is X broken by itself" or even "is X broken with Y" but, "is X broken with Y and Z." The Z in our example is a sketched move, while X and Y represent naturally occurring moves.

I'll give a few examples of allowed moves.

Substitute, Leech Seed, Sketch.

Any two of these moves together is fine. The key is to discern which is the most beneficial to the concept as a whole, and my belief is that move is Substitute. Not only is Substitute an expected part of any Pokemon's movepool, it enables the most strategies utilizing different Sketch moves.

If Leech Seed is naturally held but Substitute is not, the only Sketch move one would use with it is Substitute. Sub/Seed/Protect is annoying on every Pokemon that possesses it, and our CAP just happens to be sporting low HP and excellent Base Def/SpD.

Substitute, Calm Mind, Sketch.

Contrast this with having to Sketch Quiver Dance. Sub/CM is slower but it allows you any coverage move you wish with Sketch, so at least in that regard, Sub + CM is more versatile. Whether we want this diversity to justapose with the more potentially threatening Sub + Sketched Quiver Dance + STAB + Hidden Power is a good question. In any case, it's worth discussing. I still think Substitute allows for the most options and therefore fits the concept the best.

What I'm trying to look at is the concept of versatility and its effects. One argument used against Taunt was that it doesn't help out much with Necturna's counters (bar Skarm to an extent). Nobody switches Necturna into her counters though, they switch her into Pokemon she could shut down, a not-small list with Taunt and any move of her choice. Taunt shuts down any check that relies on Toxic, Paralysis, or Burn for example unless they can get that status in before Necturna can move. An unlikely proposition with aforementioned Sketchable boosting moves, or a Sketched paralysis move of her own.

 

[Project_Mars]

Keep in mind that Glare is arguably better than Thunder Wave even though it has 10% lower accuracy. It works on all types of Pokemon, whereas Ground-type Pokemon like Gliscor or Landorus can avoid paralysis from Thunder Wave.

Ah, and here i thought it wouldn't work on ghosts considering Thunder Wave doesn't work on ground-types... You're right then. Changing to Disallow Glare.

Reikku: Dusk said leech seed was banned in the initial post, so don't worry.

 

[Temperantia]

Disallow Encore/Yawn

Encore seems like way too much stopping power for a Pokemon that can capitalize on a switch like Necturna. Between boosting, hitting hard with a coverage attack on an attempted counter and any other of the possible Sketchable strategies, I feel giving Necturna that much momentum shift would be a bit much.
Yawn is also almost a guaranteed switch unless your opponent enjoys having a severely incapacitated Pokemon, so I'm putting it in the same boat as Encore.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Encore, Taunt, Yawn

Taunt: Most Pokemon who would fall prey to taunt can already KO Necturna or should not be staying in. It doesn't really change any of its matchups by having it. Out of the classic stall Pokemon of Gen V, Jellicent and Politoed should not be staying in on it. Tentacruel simply can not set up, but can deal some damage back to Necturna with Ice beam if it has it, and isn't really shut down. Gliscor and Skarmory can Brave Bird it to death while it taunts. Blissey and Chansey probably shouldn't be staying in on something with base 120 attack, probably Power Whip, and maybe Close Combat.

Forretress and Ferrothorn are the only Pokemon who suddenly find themselves in a bad spot they would not already be in, and they really have to fear Sacred Fire or V-Create sketches. Overall, I can't see it actually changing too many matchups, and it will lose a coverage move if it takes the Taunt route. Since it needs all the coverage it can get, any move that takes away from it seriously limits how effective the set can be. Therefore, I think Taunt should be allowed.

Encore and Yawn are much trickier. I dislike them due to their ability to force switches, which on a Pokemon that can devestate with only one turn to set up is quite dangerous. With Yawn, CaP2 can hit a Pokemon coming in to counter it with Yawn, and then set up as it switches out or have one of her counters crippled for a while and earning more time to set up. When it has access to Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, and Shell Smash this might be a bit overpowering. Encore works the same way when it comes to switching into a resisted attack from a slower Pokemon. Therefore, I would vote to dissallow Yawn and Encore.

 

[GRs Cousin]

Generally speaking, I would say that Thunder Wave should be disallowed. Common Ground-types that would not be affected by Thunder Wave would still be dispatched of with STAB Power Whip running off Necturna's high attack, and some sets, such as Quiver Dance with Hidden Power Ice, could easily dispose of physically defensive Ground types such as Gliscor and Donphan without trouble. Thusly, a vast majority of the metagame would suffer from the crippling paralysis and giving Necturna a bit too much of an advantage. Take into account that if Necturna was to set up with Quiver Dance first, even its supposed counters might have a huge disadvantage, given how none of them have the immunity to paralysis. Necturna can simply switch to counter one of its checks and proceed to sweep without problems later. All this considered, Thunder Wave could benefit our CAP too greatly if it still had the option of Sketch and should therefore be disallowed.

I'd also like to point out how Acid Spray should be allowed. Base 85 special attack isn't horrible, but it's not enough to kill things quickly with a move that has bad coverage and a complete immunity by Steel types. To allow it would benefit Necturna in being able to waste away certain walls, but not enough to where access to Sketch would completely build Necturna into OP territory.

 

[erisia]

I'd say allow Taunt since it doesn't really stop any of its counters (other than maybe Jirachi) from doing their jobs, and the extra ability to halt stall can make slower defensive sets more useful. It'll often be hard for Necturna to find room for it on its crowded movesets anyway, so I don't think it'd be overpowered in the slightest. Encore and Yawn are slightly more effective at forcing switches, but I don't think they'd be too overpowered either. A Shell Smash set is going to have some serious problems sweeping with only two moves with sub-par neutral coverage, even if it manages to force a switch with either of these two moves. Again, these would encourage more defensive sets, which would help diversify Necturna away from the "standard" offensive sets people are predicting. I can't see them being overpowered so long as we're sensible with the rest of the non-Sketched movepool, so I'll also say allow Encore and Yawn.

The paralysis moves all have the potential to cripple Necturna's counters with little risk, as well as fast mons aiming to revenge offensive sets, so I'm tempted to say we should disallow Thunder Wave, Glare and Stun Spore.

 

[Jaetheho]

You guys are overestimating thunder wave -__-

Let me explain using sawsbuck.

Similar typing, little worse bulk, similar speed, similar/better move pool...
Similar base stat spread...

He has a physical grass STAB and thunder wave.
so will necturna if given thunder wave.


Do you see thunder wave sawsbuck making any impact on the metagame, because I dont!

Anyways, allow thunder wave, disallow stun spore and glare, allow taunt, disallow encore

 

[Aura Disciple]

You guys are overestimating thunder wave -__-

Let me explain using sawsbuck.

Similar typing, little worse bulk, similar speed, similar/better move pool...
Similar base stat spread...

He has a physical grass STAB and thunder wave.
so will necturna if given thunder wave.


Do you see thunder wave sawsbuck making any impact on the metagame, because I dont!

Anyways, allow thunder wave, disallow stun spore and glare, allow taunt, disallow encore

I don't think it's truly relevant to compare Sawsbuck and Necturna. Necturna has a higher base attack by 20 points. I think that's a respectable difference. It's also harder to say that Sawsbuck has a better movepool, let alone similar if Necturna has access to sketch so it's virtually every move. With thunder wave Necturna, I was thinking of using thunder wave on the switch and use the sketch move to deal with the counter very accordingly. For example,

Hydreigon/Heatran switches in.
Necturna uses thunder wave

Next Turn: Necturna uses [insert fighting move here]
or the other two counters

Jirachi/Skarmory switches in
Necturna uses thunder wave

Next Turn: Necturna uses [insert fire move here, probably sacred fire]

Necturna should be able to cripple the incoming threat, regardless of a scarf or not. All of the designated counters for Necturna are easily crippled by thunder wave, leaving less convincing of a counter. However, this all depends on how well the Trainer uses Necturna. In sum, disallow thunder wave.

 

[Jaetheho]

I don't think it's truly relevant to compare Sawsbuck and Necturna. Necturna has a higher base attack by 20 points. I think that's a respectable difference. It's also harder to say that Sawsbuck has a better movepool, let alone similar if Necturna has access to sketch so it's virtually every move. With thunder wave Necturna, I was thinking of using thunder wave on the switch and use the sketch move to deal with the counter very accordingly. For example,

Hydreigon/Heatran switches in.
Necturna uses thunder wave

Next Turn: Necturna uses [insert fighting move here]
or the other two counters

Jirachi/Skarmory switches in
Necturna uses thunder wave

Next Turn: Necturna uses [insert fire move here, probably sacred fire]

Necturna should be able to cripple the incoming threat, regardless of a scarf or not. All of the designated counters for Necturna are easily crippled by thunder wave, leaving less convincing of a counter. However, this all depends on how well the Trainer uses Necturna. In sum, disallow thunder wave.

Except you cant change the sketch move everytime a different counter comes in.

But i get what you are saying, and yes i agree, Necturna is a overall better, stat-given pokemon. However, the movepool of Sawsbuck is better, as it has access to ground moves AND fighting moves.

Also, they are really similar in terms of other stuff (just that sawsbuck is a weaker version of necturna) so i dont think Necturna with thunderwave will be a problem. It already outspeeds most of its counters, anyways.

Allow Thunderwave

 

[V4Victini]

Except you cant change the sketch move everytime a different counter comes in.

But i get what you are saying, and yes i agree, Necturna is a overall better, stat-given pokemon. However, the movepool of Sawsbuck is better, as it has access to ground moves AND fighting moves.

Also, they are really similar in terms of other stuff (just that sawsbuck is a weaker version of necturna) so i dont think Necturna with thunderwave will be a problem. It already outspeeds most of its counters, anyways.

Allow Thunderwave

Yes but you don't know which counter move its running. If you switch in the wrong counter then (with Thunder Wave on the switch) can outspeed and KO or cripple them. Either way your dehabilitating or losing a pokemon just to find out which counter move its running. I find that a little similar to Deo-S.

Also w/ Paralysis it can neutralize Hydreigon, Scarf Heatran, and Scarf Jirachi. Yea, it outspeeds Skarmory, so it can still hit it with Sacred Fire anyways.

Disallow Thunder Wave and Glare. Allow Stun Spore 75 Accuracy isnt much to praise, along the lines of Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Jaetheho]

but youre wasting a slot on thunderwave!

if you were able to paralyze+use a move to kill counter, i would much rather just kill right away on the predicted switchin.

and anyways, no ones running thunderwave except on wall sets, where killing counters dont matter.

allow thunderwave

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Sorry for the delay in updating. I will be spending a majority of tomorrow on a plane and have been preparing for it tonight. I will update the OP soon before I go to sleep and maybe when I wake up. You might anticipate my explanations being slightly shorter than usual for the previously noted reasons.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Glare / Thunder Wave / Stun Spore: Allow. While paralysis is incredibly useful to a Pokemon with this kind of stat spread, there will be serious 4MSS issues for any set that attempts to make use of it. In fact, such sets will probably have to forgo any sort of boosting move entirely, since having just two attacking moves will not allow this CAP to get past even paralyzed checks. I am in support of anything that benefits non-boosting sets to a degree, so this gets a yes from me.

Encore: Disallow. Encore on something with access to every major boosting move in the game?! While this may also result in 4MSS like paralysis moves, the massive number of setup opportunities it will generate will be very difficult to balance.

Taunt: Allow. Necturna should have some way of stopping phazing and status, and 4MSS prevents this from being too overpowering. It also allows it to pull off a decent stallbreaking set with taunt / will-o-wisp / recover / [filler] set.

Yawn: Allow. I don't see the harm in allowing a pseudo-hazing sleep move if we're allowing Grasswhistle and Sing.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, well, I will start this by saying that I am really not convinced about paralysis as a whole one way or the other yet. I think there are a lot of good arguments both ways right now, but I have narrowed it a bit. Yes, I think that CAP 2 is a tremendously capable user of paralysis moves, regardless of their typing or accuracy. Even with Thunder Wave, CAP 2's responses are never Ground-types thanks to Grass STAB, and all of them hate being paralyzed. Furthermore, just about any of the 'pinch' switch-ins to CAP 2 hate paralysis in a big way. But then I get back to wondering if that's a bad thing; it means that CAP 2 will be forfeiting a coverage move and have poor coverage as a result (assuming it Sketches a boosting move and not a coverage move). Perhaps it's too much versatility, but perhaps it doesn't matter. For the earlier reasons, though, I'm fairly confident in my decision to disallow both Thunder Wave and Glare. Lower accuracy is slightly less reliable and so Stun Spore will stay in controversial, but I border very close to disallowing it, too, because of what paralysis by its nature does to pretty much every typical and atypical CAP 2 switch-in.

I've not really convinced in the case of Taunt being too strong. It is a powerful move, don't get me wrong, but CAP 2 has poor two-move coverage inside its STABs, and is almost always better served by a tertiary attacking move than Taunt. Only Skarmory really dislikes Taunt of the list, and Skarmory is going to be Brave Birding CAP 2 into oblivion anyway. The main issue here isn't that, though, it's that pinch checks to CAP 2 may be trying to use something like a last-ditch Toxic to stop CAP 2 (Deck's point is strong). Still, within two move coverage, I don't think a TauntQD set or a TauntSG set will be too powerful. I will allow Taunt for the moment. Encore is not so lucky, however. Encore may not be particularly valuable on CAP 2, as some have astutely noted, but it lends itself to people trying to abuse it and distracts from being focused on our concept, which is the abuse of Sketch. Taunt doesn't have this issue because Taunt is used in addition to typical Sketch sets. Even without that, Encore lets CAP 2 check a lot of slower Pokemon that it doesn't need to be checking; it gets enough switches anyway. Encore is disallowed.

Thinking about Yawn, we need to consider that it is still a status move despite also pseudo-hazing opponents. Sometimes they will consider staying in to mess up CAP 2 and it may be in their best interests. Still, it is not instantaneous, and it is avoidable. Furthermore, I think most people will be wanting multiple checks to CAP 2 anyway, so I do not think Yawn on boosting sets is a major issue. That said, this is really in the same boat as Taunt. It doesn't distract from the focus of Sketch-based sets, and is otherwise costing CAP 2 a necessary attacking coverage move to run. Let's just say that Yawn is going to be allowed.

I've updated the OP with my next list of target moves.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Destiny Bond cannot stay. I know I, for one, would trade an attack off of Shift Gear or Shell Smash especially (likely the Ghost STAB) for the ability to instantly destroy a would-be counter at the tail end of a destructive sweep.

Screens are legit I'd say. Once again, Necturna has an auspicious switch-in typing and can set up screens rather reliably. Reflect is a nice option for an alternative Quiver Dancer, and otherwise screens serve only to eat valuable coverage slots on offensive sets. Allow them.

CounterCoat is underwhelming, what are we going to do with them? Even if we, say, obliterate a Hydreigon with Mirror Coat [Dark Pulse], we've still lost well over half our health and will likely lose to the revenger, or worse yet a Pursuit user. They offer little benefit to us outside of surprise value—a CounterCoat Necturna won't be sweeping or outstalling anyone any time soon.

Perish Song and Trapping Moves go hand in hand. Up to preferance, but allow one of these two. Perish Song offers excellent utility as a last-ditch stop to certain obnoxious fuckery, and trapping moves can ease set-up if used correctly. Both require creative sets and skilled play to pull their weight on a competitive team, which is desirable. Together, though, they might be an overwhelming option. You'll still just as likely end up trapping a Hydreigon which destroys you the turn after, though, so they might not even be an issue then.

 

[Spork]

Perish Trapping on its own kinda sucks, but Perish Trapping combined with, for example, Spore, is actually somewhat threatening. Whilst, as a general tactic, considering Perish Song and Mean Look alone, it's fairly gimmicky and doesn't actually beat any counters effectively, Spore legitimises it as an actual set that can work repeatedly, especially against slower teams or teams that can't OHKO. It seems like the availability of such a combination would skew Sketch use in a non-offensive way, which I think is probably a bad thing, especially since Perish Trapping is hardly 'bulky offense'.

I'd probably go for disallow Perish Song, then, and allow Mean Look etc. I think Perish Song probably hurts the concept more on principle (as it can threaten counters more, perhaps allowing a teammate to set up, which is fundamentally non-offensive), even if both are sucky options on Necturna alone. You could go for mutual exclusivity but I'm not sure how you feel about that, either way I think Perish Trapping is pretty damaging.

I think Dual Screens is mostly fine - Reflect isn't even really a good option for Quiver Dance, considering that there are few physical pokemon that can actually switch into it and deal damage anyway. Necturna really has no real place screening for her own use, considering her typing and poor recovery. I think it depends mostly on whether we want Necturna to be Dual Screening as a supporter, and she does have a niche for it with her typing, and could definitely run it as a set. It certainly expands her Sketch use - Suicide moves become much more attractive on a Dual Screener, and Necturna has potential to be a good Exploder or Lunar Dance user, and Spore is also useful here. Giving her potential to run a half-decent full support set might go against our primary intentions, however. It certainly has the same counters though.

Counter Coat is like the least effective lure set Necturna can run, and we should allow it. Her overall defenses don't help her out in that department.

 

[capefeather]

Even if we, say, obliterate a Hydreigon with Mirror Coat

Actually, Hydreigon is immune to Mirror Coat, since it's a Psychic-type attack! So I agree, I don't see CounterCoat being worth using at all. "Nail the switch-in with Counter when Hydreigon U-turns." lol

Destiny Bond could be a funny gimmick on Speed-boosting sets. I share LC's concerns with the move, but it seems kind of situational.

I think that tactics requiring multiple moves, like perish trapping and dual screens + possibly Memento, are a gigantic distraction from the concept, unless Sketch is required to complete the moveset. The possible forced inclusion of Sketch in these schemes is what intrigues me here. If we allow most of what is required for a tactic, and then force the user to use Sketch to get the last move, perhaps that doesn't fulfill the bulky offense direction so much, but I'd say it sure as hell can help the concept itself.

Because of this, I agree with the above posts to say that one, and only one, of [trapping move] + Perish Song should be allowed. Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure of which to disallow. As for the screens (since the above posts mentioned it and it seems to fit here), I think that the best option is to disallow one of the screens and allow Memento. This forces Sketch on dual screeners whether you want Memento or not.

 

[Cuiv]

Want to put in my two cents to allow Swords Dance, which the current guidelines suggest is disallowed.

1) Necturna should be able to at least semi-viably run some move other than a boosting move as her Sketch move. Swords Dance allows the flexibility of running a non-boosting support or attacking move as her Sketch move whilst at the same time being able to reach significant power levels.

2) Necturna is too slow, without any sort of speed boosting and without particularly exceptional bulk, for Swords Dance to be remotely broken. SD Necturna is easily revenged. She is also relatively easy to predict. If she doesn't use Swords Dance, she's just not that strong, and once she does, she's shown off that her set is likely to be SD/Power Whip/Sacred Fire/Shadow Claw, walled by Heatran, Dragonite and some other bulky stuff.

 

[Auraknight]

In my opinion, the movepool of this pokemon is the hardest thing to get right. In order to fully investigate our concept, we need to give Necturna a wide-enough movepool that it can perform several different roles (depending on its sketch move). Too shallow a movepool, and Necturna will end up relying on a few powerful sets (and thus not tell us an enormous amount about the utility of a catch-all moveslot), too wide a movepool and we run the risk of Necturna becoming broken with too much power coming out of a single set, which again narrows the investigative process. Already in this thread there have been examples of people who fall on both sides of this dividing line, some attempting to (in my mind) over-nerf Necturna, and some attempting to give too much versatility. With this in mind, I present my opinions on all the moves in the 'Needs Discussion' section:

Disallow Counter, but Allow Mirror Coat
The main reason I would propose to disallow Counter is due to Pursuit. It seems always the case with Ghost or Psychic pokemon that considerable thought must be paid to dealing with pokemon carrying Pursuit. Having access to Counter gives Necturna the possibility of catching pursuit pokemon unawares by using predicted pursuits as a weapon against them, particularly relevant in the case of Scarftar. I will admit that this is a somewhat minor detail, but I think it is worth consideration. With that said, I feel there is no issue with allowing Mirror Coat, and that Necturna can make reasonable use of it with her special bulk. I would prefer for Necturna to have to use its Sketch move to beat Pursuit users.

Disallow Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
Using its sketch move, Necturna can have access to any boosting move in the game. The ability to trap a pokemon and proceed to set up on it is very powerful, especially with the boosting moves that Necturna will have access to. With that said however, the pokemon you would generally want to try and set-up on will switch-out immediately before you have the chance to trap them. What this means is that if Necturna has access to these moves, it puts pressure on the opponent to switch to a counter to Necturna, which Necturna will then trap. If you are carrying another pokemon which can take advantage of the Necturna counter, these trapping moves will give that pokemon a free turn of set-up. I would vote to Disallow them, but if they are Allowed, my next vote will change.

Allow Perish Song (unless the above moves are Allowed, in which case Disallow Perish Song)
As I said in my initial paragraph, I am keen to promote diversity in the movepool. Having voted to disallow trapping moves, I would nevertheless be keen to allow Necturna to pull-off a Perish-Trapping set. However, I feel this would have to be to the exclusion of other possibilities, hence requiring Sketch to be spent on a trapping move. If the trapping moves were to be allowed, the converse is true, and Necturna would have to spend its sketch move on perish song. I feel that Perish Song is far less dangerous outside of Perish-Trap than the trapping moves, and would thus prefer it to be allowed.

Disallow Destiny Bond
Destiny Bond is a tricky consideration, it gives Necturna an out to any pokemon, but will cost Necturna its life if successful. On boosting sets this allows Necturna a chance to eliminate problem pokemon that would give the rest of its team trouble. Necturna is already so threatening with its boosting moves that I feel this is too much. On boosting sets Necturna will pretty much always be boosting its speed, and so moving faster than its opponent. I feel like if Nocturna sketches a boosting move it must forego this ability, and so I would prefer not to allow it.

Disallow Reflect, but Allow Light Screen
Pretty similar reasons to Counter and Mirror Coat behind this one. Light Screen helps it special tank if necessary.

There is one other move that I would like to mention, and that is Allow Agility. I expect this to cause some controversy, however, Agility is entirely outclassed by Shift-Gear for use on offensive sets. Having a speed-boosting move in its movepool allows Necturna to make use of support moves without being incredibly slow. It could be argued that being able to boost its speed and pick a coverage move is too much, but once you know the coverage move, it becomes relatively easy to deal with.

Just my 2 cents, feel free to rip my arguments apart as you please :)

 

[Temperantia]

Allow Mean Look/etc.

Imo, a trapping move wouldn't be too demanding on Necturna. Not only would it have to compete with either coverage or boosting on an offensive set, but it has the possibility of going horribly wrong (read: trapping a Hydreigon). In addition, I believe this move would be excellent in encouraging diverse movesets beyond <Boosting or Coverage Move>/<Grass Move>/<Ghost move>/<Coverage>

Allow Dual Screens

Dual Screens is far from overpowered on Necturna and allows her to use her bulk sufficiently. In addition, either screen can make Necturna's life a lot easier when it comes to more defensive sets, allowing her to have some form of team support to add to her overall utility.