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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Rising_Dusk, Jan 4, 2012.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Onward and upward with movepools, as ever. We've completed the attacking moves segment of movepools, and the finalized version of it is present in the OP of that discussion thread. We still have one more discussion and poll that must take place before I start accepting movepool submissions for CAP 2, however. That discussion is for non-attacking moves (NAM), which for CAP 2 may be considerably more controversial than attacking moves. Lower in this thread I've listed all non-attacking moves that I consider competitive for CAP 2. Note that my list may not be exhaustive at first, and I encourage you to point out missing moves that you think may be relevant.

    • Refer to this on-site article for further description of the process that is not outlined here.
    • The list of moves will be divided up into five (5) sections: Required, Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, and Pending.
      • Required moves are those that must be in every movepool submission for CAP 2.
      • Allowed moves are those that are approved as being okay for CAP 2's movepool, and thus will be allowed in movepool submissions
      • Disallowed moves are those that have been disapproved as being okay for CAP 2's movepool, and thus will not be allowed in movepool submissions
      • Controversial moves are those that have been discussed, but which have not convinced the TL one way or the other on their validity. They are also moves that have a lot of good community arguments both way, and will go to a poll as to whether they will be allowed or not.
      • Pending moves are moves that should be discussed eventually, but have not been yet and thus are otherwise unclassified.
      • I've also included a "Need Discussion" section for moves that I want to draw attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.
    I have placed some moves into categories already at the start of this thread, but they are not placed there permanently. Moves can and likely will move around based on new arguments presented and old arguments revived. Keep that in mind. Nothing here is sacred until the thread is closed.

    This discussion thread will likely extend well beyond 24 hours into the 48 and possibly 72 hour mark.

    Things I move to "Need Discussion" are things I want discussed at any given point of time.

    The movepool stage of a CAP is competitive, and thus NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated. For example, I do not care if CAP 2 doesn't have a horn or does, Horn Leech should be allowed or disallowed based on competitive merit only.

    Below is the current list of non-attacking moves for discussion:

    Required
    Toxic
    Protect / Detect
    Rest

    Allowed
    All weather-starting moves
    Calm Mind
    Work Up
    Toxic Spikes
    Will-O-Wisp
    GrassWhistle / Sing
    Taunt
    Yawn
    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
    Perish Song
    Mirror Coat
    Light Screen
    Reflect
    Gravity
    Trick Room
    Haze
    Clear Smog
    Magnet Rise
    Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis
    Ingrain
    Refresh
    Acid Spray
    Knock Off
    Magic Coat
    Switcheroo / Trick
    Substitute
    Pain Split
    Destiny Bond

    Disallowed
    All 60% or better accuracy Sleep-inflicting moves
    All 50% instant recovery moves
    All +2 and +1/+1 or better moves (except where specified)
    (Block / Mean Look / Spider Web) + Perish Song
    Leech Seed
    Baton Pass
    Encore
    Thunder Wave
    Glare
    Counter
    Healing Wish
    Memento
    Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance
    Endeavor
    Wish
    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell
    Circle Throw / Dragon Tail
    Roar / Whirlwind
    Rapid Spin
    Spikes
    Stealth Rock
    Stun Spore
    Disable

    Controversial
    Stun Spore
    Destiny Bond
    Pain Split

    Need Discussion
    -

    Pending
    -

    CAP 2 thus far:

    Name: Necturna
    [​IMG]
    Focus: Bulky Offense
    Typing: Grass / Ghost
    Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
    Abilities: Forewarn / Telepathy (DW)
    Primary Checks: Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon
    Gender: Female
    [​IMG]
    tl;dr: Quack! (Pika pi-pikaaaa!!)
  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    As before, I wanted to post something of an explanation before discussion began in earnest. Like with AM, there are a few things I have immediately done in the OP's initial lists that you may or may not immediately agree with. These are things that I have considered at length and will now explain to you here.

    Toxic Spikes is allowed

    There is a whole realm of Sketch usage in the support movesets. I know that everyone immediately treats a single use of Sketch as perfect for the abuse of one of Pokemon's greatest boosting moves or greatest attacking moves, but there is so much more to it than that. In order to encourage support sets that might Sketch Rapid Spin or a recovery move, CAP 2 needs a setup move. Of all of those possible, I wanted something that gave CAP 2 an interesting niche and also opened up the possibility of multiple entry hazards. Toxic Spikes is effective in a CAP 2 metagame due to CAP 2 not being Poison-type or immune, but isn't over the top because all of CAP 2's listed primary responses are immune to poison anyway. It gives stall-centralized teams something to work around and a Pokemon with clear counters but clear teammates. This will be healthy for the Sketch support environment.

    Leech Seed is disallowed

    This is something that I'm sure will turn heads on a Grass-type, but hear me out. Leech Seed combined with Substitute combined with Sacred Fire (via Sketch) would make CAP 2 without a doubt the most fearsome SubSeeder in OU. Through SubSeed + Sacred Fire, CAP 2 can defeat every single one of its main counters gradually and painfully (OK, Hydreigon is still kind of difficult, but it can be done). By forcing Leech Seed out of the movepool, this is resolved, and CAP 2 will not suddenly be SubSeeding its way into Uber.

    Calm Mind / Work Up are allowed

    These two boosting moves are pretty insignificant for CAP 2. CM is cool because maybe we'll get some diverse Sketch choices out of it like Blue Flare. It is too slow to be too threatening, though, and the superior Quiver Dance will get Sketched regardless due to the boost to Speed it provides. Work Up is generally interesting in a mixed attacker sort of way, but has the same Speed issue as CM. These moves will be fine for CAP 2.

    Baton Pass is disallowed

    Shell Smash + Baton Pass. I rest my case.
  3. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
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    I guess I'll start off by advocating for Allowing Will-o-Wisp.

    Reasoning is very simple. If the user wants to run a Defensive set, Will-o-Wisp really needs to be in the allowable non-sketched movepool. That's because Necturna would need to sketch Recovery. (or use rest, IF she even gets sleep talk) Plus if Will-o-Wisp is not allowed, there will be absolutely no usage of sketch Will-o-Wisp, since Sacred Fire is absolutely better.

    I am all for throwing a bunch of support moves into Necturna's main movepool. Almost every "Bulky Offense" Pokemon in OU is capable of running some sort of support set. And Necturna needs as many Defensive possibilities she can get, what with Sketch lending itself so Offensive.

    I'll discuss other moves later, but that's my first thought.
  4. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    My initial thoughts on burn/paralysis/sleep moves are:

    Will-O-Wisp was something I mentioned before as something for team builders to compare to Sacred Fire. However, I doubt that Will-O-Wisp will actually be Sketched instead of Sacred Fire, ever. It seems to me that any trouble that can be seen with natural Will-O-Wisp is shared by Sketched Sacred Fire, other than the freeing of the Sketch slot for... idk, coverage or another support move.

    I suppose paralysis moves are going to be okay in most cases. I have reservations due to the potential to paralyze Hydreigon and Sketch something like Close Combat to deal with it. On the other hand, it seems better just to Sketch Shift Gear, but that depends on whether something like Ice Fang actually makes it into the final movepool.

    I really don't see anything going wrong with GrassWhistle or Sing.
  5. Temperantia

    Temperantia

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    I think if T-Spikes is being allowed, I see no reason to not allow Spikes along with it. Especially since, of its counters, only Heatran is affected at all.

    In addition, I think an interesting option that should be allowed is Perish Song. With Nect's bulk, the gimmicky role of Perish Trapping becomes a real possibility if it allots its Sketch slot to Mean Look/etc.

    The other side to this is allowing any of the trapping moves. In addition to Perish Trapping and other niche strategies, the moves would allow CAP2 to capitalize on any mistake made by an opponent and boost unhindered for the likely win.

    My stance on the last option is undecided. If anyone thinks trapping a failed prediction and boosting for a sweep is too powerful, the floor is yours.

    EDIT: Yikes, forgot Jirachi didn't have Levitate.
  6. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    ..and Jirachi. I really do not want to see all of the prime entry hazards on a single movepool because it means some sets could be ridiculous like "Spikes / TSpikes / Rapid Spin / STAB" and so forth. I'd like to isolate the naturally obtained entry hazards to just one of them, which is the best and most relevant as Toxic Spikes.
  7. bluemon

    bluemon

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    Where is meditate?
    +1 attack isn't that bad..

    Also, I say ALLOW WILLOWISP

    To maximize the walling potential of necturna

    Edit: I say Do not allow moonlight, synthesis, an morning sun because it favors one weather, and was if these are allowed, solarbeam should too.
  8. samtheman

    samtheman

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    I think the instinct for Necturna, which has been mentioned a lot, is to give it a set of:
    Shell Smash or Gear Shift / Grass STAB / Ghost STAB / Coverage move.

    The more support moves that we give her, the more niches she'll have in the team building process. With Haze or Memento, she can help against a boosted opponent. With Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, or Rapid Spin, she could be a general utility. Nocturna can be any of these things, but if we limit her support options, she'll have to use her Sketch move to get Aromatherapy, for example. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

    I'm not saying that she should get all of these moves, but I think it's important to consider that the more support options Nocturna has, the less we'll see the "standard" Shell Smash/Gear Shift set. More options makes her more of a wildcard in terms of non-sweeping sets.
  9. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    I don't feel Wil-owisp is a bad option for this thing's design, it's supposed to be a bulkier attacker and it wont have Scald or Inferno access so Wisp is the only real option. Sacred Fire will have a lot more appeal if burn is the intent.

    I dislike Thunder Wave here though. With Glare and Stun Spore, there's the accuracy balance. Thunder Wave and Horn Leech have great type synergy and alongside great bulk and offense could turn this thing into a nightmare really quickly. Alongside a coverage move like Sacred Fire or Hi-Jump Kick, its checks/counters really wont appreciate 100% accuracy paralysis. I'm not a huge fan of paralysis ont his thing at all but Thunderwave seems a bit over the top. I'd move to disallow Thunderwave, while Glare and Stun Spore should stay on discussion for now.

    Grasswhistle and Sing have such bad accuracy it isn't funny. Allow because they arent going to hurt anything with that coin flip of an accuracy and access to a copied Spore.

    Outside the discussion list, i really like Acid Spray on this Pokemon. It doesn't affect 3/4 of its solid counters but alongside a Quiver Dance/Tail Glow set or with something liek Blue Flare, really opens up the special side of Necturna while being easily stopped by nearly all its normal counters. I'd really like to see it allowed
  10. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
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    Accidentally just lost a very long comment I was making....
    I don't feel like explaining everything in as long form as I had before, but I'll summarize.

    Ingrain should be Disallowed. I think Ingrain + Calm Mind/Work Up/something else + sketch Baton Pass with Necturna's stats is too much to give Baton Pass. BP experts, feel free to correct me if I am wrong though.

    Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail/Circle Throw should be Disallowed. Necturna poses a huge offensive threat, and I think with the switches Necturna is likely to force, giving Necturna phazing abilities would make her one of the best phazers in the metagame, which is probably too much, given her already strong offensive presence. Yawn should be Disallowed by my estimation for similar reasons, since now that Sleep is so debilitating Yawn is essentially a phazing move too.

    Also, as has been said above, Disallow weather based recovery. No preference should be given to Sun. Also, if Necturna gets any recovery in her normal movepool, it should require 2 moves to be fully effective (Wish + Protect or Rest + Sleep Talk.) *Note: that doesn't mean no Pain Split. Pain Split isn't truly reliable in the first place.

    I am not negative on everything, to be clear. In fact I think most of the moves listed are probably easily Allowable on Necturna (CounterCoat and Trick Room for example.) These moves however jumped out at me as questionable.
  11. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere Congregation of the Classiest
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    I say Allow Will-o-Wisp. With Sacred Fire as an option already, it's not totally unreasonable to have WoW as an option.

    Allow Grasswhistle and Glare, but Disallow Thunder Wave. Grasswhistle sucks, and with access to Spore from Sketch, it's not like Necturna can't get a better Sleep move if it wants. I feel as though Grasswhistle isn't very overpowering. Same goes for Glare (aesthetically, this thing looks like it can get glare, but that's besides the point). Glare is another one of those moves that can be useful, but isn't really game breaking due to its accuracy. However, ThunderWave is definitely something I feel shouldn't be allowed.

    On a different note, I feel as though Destiny Bond should be allowed. 81 base speed means that it's not going to be out speeding Hydreigon, which can kill it off before Necturna can pull off a D-Bond unless it boosts.
  12. ShyGuy1221

    ShyGuy1221

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    Disallow weather based recovery as we don't want to give Necturna any weather bias.

    Allow Wish and Pain Split as without any form of healing outside of Rest, defensive sets would be more difficult to pull off as Necturna would have to Sketch a recovery move. Pain Split, even with Necturna's low HP, isn't always reliable. Wish, while granting 50% recovery, requires Protect to be fully effective, and because of Necturna's low HP would not be that effective in team healing.
  13. Project_Mars

    Project_Mars

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    Let me say some things that havent been said yet
    Allow heal bell since it allows for a good team support build. similarily: Allow Wish. Personally i think that miss necy should be more support oriented in her moveset.

    Allow Substitute because with leech seed out, there arent really any degenerate things you can do with substitute.

    I am inclined to also say Allow Light Screen, Reflect, and Trick Room, but idk if those moves would help or hinder the purpose of this CAP. i doubt it, and they add utility, so sure.
  14. AJC

    AJC

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    Allow Meanlook/Block/SpiderWeb

    the Gen 5 change that make the effect of these moves wear of on a BP switch means these are not powerful options.

    Disallow glare/stun spore/t-wave

    these allow it to hinder it's proposed checks and i feel that's too much for it to have it without sketching for them.

    Disallow Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis/Growth

    These creates a weather bias and i don't feel it should have any bias naturally.
  15. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    I think most arguments against Moonlight and friends so far are kind of moot since the moves are basically invitations for ScarfTar to come in, cut the healing, and destroy Necturna.

    Will-O-Wisp provides a nice backbone for stall-oriented sets and provides a buffer against Pursuit users that would punish offensive sets.

    Taunt allows for powerful stall or stallbreaking sets and if learned naturally could be used in tandem with a boosting move. This does, however, severely limit coverage.

    Encore allows her to create setup opportunities but again sacrifices offensive coverage. It is a much greater boon to defensive sets.

    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell are excellent incentives to Sketch a healing move. Necturna's auspicious defensive typing allows her to come in and cleric easily, and with her bulk and a healing move she could do so multiple times.

    I'm comfortable with the mentioned status moves in general; having multiple status moves makes a status platform set very appealing, and Sketch allows her to decide between powerful healing and a surprise attack move to take advantage of those who would set up on her.
  16. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    This haranguing about weather for SolarBeam is idiotic. SolarBeam has the worst mechanics in the game and to be honest I don't even really see the point of not "biasing' weather in ways that Grass types traditionally do.

    Grass types (at least those without Chlorophyll) dislike Sun because Solarbeam is horrible and it compounds their fire weakness. Grass types like Rain because it mitigates their Fire weakness, but in exchange makes them more vulnerable to Hurricane. Hate Sand because it ruins their healing moves, hate Hail because it ruins their healing moves and they are weak to Blizzard SPAM.

    In summary, there is no such thing as a weather-neutral Grass type. There cannot be when Grass types are weak to Fire (Sun), Flying (Hurricane), and Ice (Hail). There also cannot be when Necturna has access to any coverage move in the game, with everything from Sacred Fire to Hurricane and Blizzard themselves.

    In fact, I support allowing Morning Sun (or Moonlight -the goal here is lower PP than Synthesis to limit use) because Sun is a double-edged sword for Necturna. It boosts Sacred Fire (and would boost Synthesis) but it makes Necturna much more vulnerable to other grass sweepers who carry Hidden Power Fire in their arsenal, as well as Heatran.

    Sand is ubiquitous as well, and Rain also shuts down Necturna if it's running a sun-based set.

    Allow Will-O-Wisp, Toxic Spikes, Grasswhistle/Sing - Disallow paralysis moves and Yawn.

    I do not think Paralysis should be immediately available to Necturna. The only really subpar stat Necturna has is Speed, and paralysis, especially by the two paralyzing moves in question, removes that weakness. Glare also has 90% Accuracy now so we're hardly talking an improvement on Thunder Wave. Stun Spore is actually the weakest accuracy wise, but it hits everything except Sap Sippers (the most notable of which can't even *hit* Necturna effectively). Yawn is by definition accurate sleep, it just takes a turn to activate.

    Toxic Spikes, Burn, and inaccurate Sleep on the other hand can work with Coil sets as support or double status, and generally open up the field of Sketch options.

    Substitute should be allowed.

    "Sub-X" Strategies are so common that quite bluntly it's silly we should not automatically have it on what we're describing as "a Pokemon with Sketch once and all the things that go with it." Well, unless you're Magikarp or Wobbuffett, what goes "with" being a Pokemon is access to Substitute. By disallowing Leech Seed already the potential to break Necturna with a Subseed set it thus rendered impossible.

    Disallow Taunt

    Taunt renders Necturna's boosting sets far too powerful, because it removes for many foes the chance to phaze Necturna out. Taunt/Coil/Horn Leech/Stone Edge for example has the chance to prevail over Skarmory by, if nothing else, preventing its Roost after taking residual damage and later, allowing Necturna to simply boost its Defense in the face of any phazer. If Skarmory is too weakened by this process it will be taken out.

    Disallow Encore

    In a similar vein, Encore gives Necturna a chance to lock any opponent into a non-threatening move and then get a guaranteed turn to set up any of its boosters at least once, and sometimes twice.
  17. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Deck Knight, you know that Synthesis has 5 PP just like Moonlight and Morning Sun, right?
  18. Spork

    Spork

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    Solarbeam isn't competitive enough to even warrant discussion in my mind :P

    I am absolutely on the side of allowing the 'conditional' 50% recovery moves, along with Deck, however, because Sun is just generally pretty detrimental to a defensive set - it's just a horribly offensive environment that allows Fire types and Dragons and Chlorophyllers to run rampant, and allows almost anything with HP Fire to do more than 50% to Necturna anyway. Running Morning Sun on a set that relies upon it pretty much forces you to use Ninetales support, and, without even Leech Seed, Necturna is really out of place as a supporting pokemon on a sun team - Toxic Spikes and Sacred Fire/Rapid Spin can be a decent niche, buts its speed, defenses and typing really, really hurt it here. There's also the PP problem - Stalling out anyone's PP or attempting to recoup HP over several moves in order to attack or status is almost always a losing battle.

    That said, these moves are still somewhat feasible and could enhance defensive sets anyway, as the 33% recovery is going to let it stall out resisted attackers or give it some recovery on the switch, without allowing its defensive sets to be too viable. We all know that Rain is the most complementary condition for Necturna that want to sponge hits :P. Allow Synthesis, Morning Sun and Moonlight.

    When it comes to hazards, I think we should allow Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes are probably the least effective hazard in OU, due to the general offensiveness of the environment and the prominence of levitators, fliers and steels, but they're also the rarest in terms of pokemon that can use them, and I like that we can have a supporting niche here - I also feel like it gives a good way for Necturna to set up without using Sketch, giving Sketch moves like Spore an actual niche on her. Whilst Stealth Rock is imo significantly more effective than Toxic Spikes in terms of generally dealing damage and preventing switches, its general ubiquity in OU anyway means it probably doesn't matter too much whether we give it to Necturna or not - the main thing that gives her an edge here is her ghost typing. If a moveset of Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin/Spore / Filler seems too worrying, however (and it seems, to me, to be a very effective set considering typing) we could opt for mutual exclusivity between Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. I think Stealth Rock is basically harmless on Necturna though, but still gives her a way to set up without Sketch that is very useful.

    Spikes, on the other hand, are much more dangerous on a ghost type, especially considering it's a ghost type with access to spore, since rapid spin is the only way to be rid of it and most pokemon care much more about taking 25% damage on the switch than they care about being poisoned. Spikes would not only overshadow Toxic Spikes, I feel (as well at Stealth Rock - three layers is imo superior to pointed stones), but would allow Necturna to act as a very dangeous support pokemon that could reach a level of viability equal to that of its actual 'bulky offense' sets, so I'm all for disallowing Spikes.

    I dunno entirely how I feel about sleep. They are generally unviable IMO, and Sleep + Setup almost invariably loses out on coverage (terrible for physical sets!) and is mostly inferior to Sub + Setup. Incapacitating Heatran on the switch is an intensely risky endeavour, as even with two uses there's a significant chance of failure, and anybody that can see a sleep move being used is likely to switch out.

    However, when it comes to inaccurate sleep moves, our speed should be pointed out. Heatran, Skarmory and Defensive Rachi risk themselves twice to the move on the switch if they stay in, which gives Necturna an 80% chance to sleep them. Whilst this is a situation that probably will be rare (due to factors pointed out earlier) it is still a situation that allows us to incapacitate our counters without using a Sketch move, and set up and potentially sweep, even with Power Whip/Stone Edge or Shadow Ball / HP Fight coverage (our counters will often die to these combinations before they wake up, if they stay in (not so much Jirachi)). I lean towards disallow Grasswhistle/Sing, but that's mostly on principle, as I still don't believe it would see much practical use.

    I am against paralysis for most of the reasons already stated, and I don't think the accuracy of, say, Stun Spore makes that much of a difference here. I do support Will-O-Wisp still, because it's outclassed somewhat by Sacred Fire and is fairly important to the success of more defensive sets, because of her leftovers-only recovery.

    Totally agree that Encore and Taunt are too disruptive and distracting and that Aromatherapy is a really nice little boost for bulkier Necturna without totally affecting the orientation of sets.

    I'd like to discuss Ingrain for a second. Ingrain gives Necturna a notable baton pass niche, and also gives her some limited recovery - however, the recovery is poor and prevents switching. Whilst Ingrain is less relevant this gen to Baton Pass thanks to Espeon, Dragon Tail remains a notable threat to BP teams. Is a move that can only feasibly be used alongside Baton Pass (and remember, we already have Calm Mind to improve BP viability) bad on a bulky offense pokemon, considering that baton passers are often the antithesis of offensive? Or is a Baton Pass niche good on a pokemon whose ability to use any move in the game is a major part of its concept?

    @Raikaria I meant only one on an entire movepool, and who gives a crap about breeding dynamics anyway.
  19. Raikaria

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    Allow Moonlight/Synthisis/Morning Sun

    Rain and Sand are by far the most common weather types within OU, and all three of these attacks are reduced to healing only 25% under those conditions.

    While you may argue that this gives Nectuna a Sun bias, I argue otherwise. Without these moves, Nectuna has a Rain bais, due to loseing her weakness to Fire. Utilisation of any of these moves amplifies her weakness to Fire, so that it's easier for even UNSTAB'ed fire attacks, such as Dragonite's Fire Punch, to take Nectuna down.

    This also makes the 100% healing under Sun less of an issue, due to this exploitable weakness gained, because most Fire moves will be 2HKO'ing at worst, so all Nectuna can do is spam heal until she runs out of PP.

    Disallow Thunder Wave

    100% accurate Paralysis on something with Nectuna's speed would be far too benificial to slow boosting sets, especially Coil, due to increased Power Whip accuracy, but also Swords Dance. If Nectuna wants to cause Paralysis, she'll have to take the risk of missing with Stun Spore or Glare.

    Which, if that sentence dosen't hint at it already, allow Stun Spore and Glare

    Allow Substitute

    I'm pretty sure it's a required move on anything that learns TM [except Shedinja] anyway. There's no reason to disallow it. Especially as Nectuna would have tosketch Baton Pass is she wanted to... pass. It's not like Sub helps her get past her counters either.

    Disallow Taunt

    Taunt pretty much shuts down Skarmory as a counter, and can also stop any attempts to status Nectuna so she can be taken down [Except Prankster]. In addittion, it could be a massive aid to allowing set-up in the first place.

    I'm also worried about the prowess of defensive sets with a 'fast' taunt. Nectuna is bulky, and has the ability to have any pro-stall move she wants. There's a reason why no Cosmic Power user has Taunt.

    Disallow Grasswhistle/Sing

    Coil increases Accuracy. That allows these moves to have quite a reliable chance at shutting down pretty much every Steel-type, because most of them are slower than Nectuna. Skarmory especially, as it's intended as a counter.

    Disallow Will-O-Wisp

    Same worries about Coil, as it shuts down all physical-based checks and counters. The possibility of throwing around 100% accurate Will-O-Wisps, while having a 100% accurate Power Whip, and Shadow Claw, at +1, is somewhat scary, in my opinion.

    Will-O-Wisp is also a massive aid in setting up, as most physical attackers will run from a potential burn.

    Pretty much the only things safe from a specially bulky Coil Nectuna with Will-O-Wisp are Heatran and Hydregion, and the latter dosen't like a Burn chipping at his HP.

    Allow Spikes, Disallow Stealth Rock

    There's loads of better SR users than Nectunawithin OU, but not that many viable Spikers. Stealth Rock seems wasteful on Nectuna, and I see no reason to have it. Spikes, however, has little competetion, so it could encourage hazard setting sets.

    Although I must admit a fair part of my being against SR is flavor, I don't see how Nectuna would be a tempting SR user, as SR is used once and then is a wasted moveslot, while it could be pretty good at getting up multiple Spikes layers.

    ---

    EDIT@ Spock

    Mutral Exclusivity between SR and Toxic Spikes is impossible, because Smergle would have to be in the egg group, neither is a Tutor Move, and Nectuna *didn't exist*... CAP-wise in Gen 4.
  20. Birkal

    Birkal Caw.
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    Since CAP2's concept was assessed, I've always wanted to make defensive and supportive sets viable on CAP2. We can learn just as much about the defensive metagame by seeing which moves are the best moves to Sketch. And in my opinion, this is one of the last stages we'll get in deciding that outcome. With that said, here are my thoughts.

    Disallow Substitute - In my opinion, Substitute is one of the best moves in the game, especially for CAP2. With access to Sketch and Substitute, CAP2 becomes highly unpredictable. It could safely boost, chip away at its counters, or scout its opponent's moveset. Furthermore, it increases the potency of offensive sets. I know that I personally would be in fear every time CAP2 uses Substitute, because I have no idea what it's going to be doing next; I won't be able to stop it with paralysis or Toxic either. It negatively makes OU's most unpredictable Pokemon even more predictable.

    Now this might sound crazy, but if we disallow Substitute, I would like to see Leech Seed instead. Without Substitute, there is no danger of SubSeed. Leech Seed also provides a semi-reliable form of recovery and a bit more of a push for stall-based teams. And if someone is really gearing up for SubSeed, then Protect + Leech Seed could do in a pinch. Just something to think about.

    Now, to help out support sets, I'd love to see Ingrain. This would actually give CAP2 a niche in the Baton Pass metagame by becoming a more reliable ingrainer than Smeargle. Reflect and Light Screen should also be allowed to allow for even more support if desired. I would also say allow Will-O-Wisp because it's a fantastic support move, it will draw away from the centralization of Sacred Fire, and it doesn't severely harm CAP2's checks.

    I'm also agreeing with posts that chat about disallowing paralysis moves. They really can hurt CAP2's foes and prevent them from doing their job adequately. I think that Toxic Spikes is perfect. Therefore, I'd also say disallow Stealth Rock and Spikes. I have more thoughts, so I'll be back later!
  21. ReshiramBlitz

    ReshiramBlitz

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    (being a n00b/lurker, you don't have to listen)


    Allow Stun Spore
    Disallow Thunder Wave
    Allow Glare



    100% paralysis is not a good idea. A lowered accuracy version would be better because;
    TWave on switch, counter is paralysed, yet with Stun Spore, it has more of a chance, with ~65% accuracy.


    Allow Trick Room

    This could present some nice strategies focusing on Trick Room; low speed and all, this might be a pretty intresting set.
  22. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I guess listing something under "Need Discussion" apparently invites everyone reading this thread to post about every other move on the list. Please, for the love of my ever-lasting CAP-induced headache, focus on what I put in "Need Discussion". It exists for a reason, and is primarily there to organize our thoughts so posts about things I'm not focusing on don't get lost in the mix (and looking at the posts so far they will). For the record, up to this point I have ignored any part of a post that was irrelevant to the moves in Need Discussion or Controversial. If you want your opinions on those moves heard down the road, save it for when I want us to focus on them. When things populate the controversial list, you can talk about them as well.

    From what has been said, tempered with my own interpretations, I will allow Will-O-Wisp. This is a very balanced move alongside a Sketch option like Sacred Fire. For instance, Sacred Fire with its 50% to burn and 100 BAP is worlds better and will be Sketched regardless of the presence of WoW on the movepool. Furthermore, WoW supports less offensive variants of CAP 2, which is not a bad idea.

    I am not convinced that the basis of accuracy is really enough to fully allow some variants of paralysis. There has been, unfortunately, little serious discussion since the advent of the thread on the paralysis-inducing moves, but from what I can see it's a little back and forth. I personally am torn, which is particularly why I wanted discussion. For now, I will move all paralysis-inducing moves to controversial. Hopefully there will be more discussion of them down the road.

    I agree where it was said, the 55% accuracy moves are terrible and will not be used with any seriousness. Where they are used, they will be met with failure nearly half of the time, keeping them at bay for being serious issues. For this reason, I've allowed GrassWhistle / Sing.

    I've updated the Need Discussion section with some new targets of mine. Note that I apparently forgot to move Yawn to Need Discussion before as part of status moves, so I have done so now. Please, if you have any opinions on paralysis moves, continue to post them.
  23. Tayla

    Tayla

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    While Encore would be fearsome on a boosting set, it really falls dead in my mind once you consider Necturna's initial base Speed. Encore would be a waste of a moveslot on any offensive boosting set. It has more of a use on a Defensive Support set, such as Encore / SR/Spikes/TSpikes / etc / etc. Even after a Gear Shift or a Quiver Dance, I don't think the Pokemon being switched into Necturna will waste time doing anything but attack in the face of its boosting. Unless it's a Will-o-Wisp, which neuters a Physical Necturna regardless. So allow Encore.

    Taunt, on the other hand, should be disallowed. Taunt prevents the mentioned Will-o-Wisps from working. Along with attempts to phaze, paralyze, Sleep, or heal in the face of Necturna's assaults. This one's a no brainer for me..

    Yawn, I'm kind of on the fence about. While it's a pseudo phazing move, it also forces the opponent into a situation where they have to decide whether to leave a solid check in, or switch to one maybe not so able to stand up to Necturna.
  24. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    As far as accuracy goes, i think most people were trying to make a point that if any move causing paralysis is allowed, that it not be ThunderWave. Twave along with Sketch will make Necturna's "checks" switching in a nightmare. Paralysis is the strongest status against all of her checks, 3 of the 4 are immune to Poison, 1 of 4 are immune to Burn while Hydregion is more specially inclined and Skarmory can still be useful against her while Burned, Freeze has not guaranteed move and Sleep can only be used on 1 Pokemon on the team.

    Giving it access to Thunderwave allows Necturna to cripple its checks without using its Sketh move, meaning it can pack a Hidden power and Sketch move to help it cover its checks or it can simply paralysis them and then run out to something better suited to deal with them withotu giving away any information about its moveset aside from not being Choiced. As i mentioned earlier, it also becomes quite powerful alongside Horn Leech and possibly Substitue as an annoyer, which isn't what we were going for. Even with mild base power, Horn Leech coming off 120 attack is very difficult to take, and most of those that can arent going to want to be Thunder Waved. Things like Breloom, Gliscor and Xatu are some of the few things that can handle both and are all easily countered with a common Ice weakness by somethign else on the team, and Breloom and Xatu dont have anything that they can really do against Necturna.

    Overall:
    - Guaranteed paralysis without using a Sketch slot makes Necturna a force that can cripple almost every Pokemon in the game once it has a switch in.
    - It allows Necturna to neuter its counters and alongside Sketching a move like Sacred Fire or Hi Jump Kick can actually let it beat them one on one.
    - Lets her fill the role of an annoyer more than a "bulky attacker"
    - Makes her moveset harder to read

    Disallow paralysis moves
  25. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Which Will-O-Wisps? In OU, the only relevant Will-O-Wisps (from what I can see) are from Jellicent, Rotom-W, and defensive Ninetales. The former two aren't switching in anyway, and Ninetales I'm pretty sure would rather just attack Necturna, anyway. Plus, only Jellicent is guaranteed slower unless Necturna boosts her Speed. I don't think that this is a compelling argument against Taunt.

    Encore is pretty similar, since Necturna is pretty slow and will probably be hard-pressed to use Encore effectively against most attackers, and even some defensive Pokémon that might just switch out.

    I also want to talk more about paralysis moves because there hasn't been much of a meaningful discussion on them. I honestly don't see a point in using them outside of a defensive set, because the only check it will likely screw over that a Speed-boosting move might not is Choice Scarf Hydreigon. I mean, I guess Stun Spore on a defensive set will screw over a lot of Pokémon, but as far as the checks go, is it such a huge deal?
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