CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree with Scald being required. As a fire/poison pokemon designed to be best played on a rain team, you are, by the nature of rain, limiting one of his 2 STABs, what's more, it's limiting the STAB with better coverage. Furthermore, it seems that we want to give this CAP a strong focus on burning the enemy pokémon, and his options of doing that in the rain are severely limited.
Scald gives him a pseudo-STAB in the rain, and maintains his ability to burn foes. I love it.

My question, though, how much of a focus do we want this CAP to have on burning enemies? Given his design, it might be reasonable to give him an oil-themed Signature attack which is a powerful poison attack that somehow synergizes with that idea. It could have a burn chance on its own, it could cause the next fire based attack to deal bonus damage. It could remove any fire resistance, it could make the next fire or burn based attack have a 100% burn rate. I wouldn't suggest it, but, given that we have Scald and Lava Plume being looked at as essentially required attacks, it seems that we may be building this CAP's moveset around the idea that he has a high likelihood of burning enemies. Also, part of the idea was to take full advantage of the CAP's seemingly awful typing.... and, right now, I can't really see any situation in which it's going to use any of the existing poison attacks well.

 

[ZhengTann]

I agree with R_D and jas61292 about disallowing Scald. Mollux's sole competitive niche now would seem to be fighting against, and alongside, rain (Dry Skin in sun is about halfway as close to Solar Power Charizard). This means Rain-boosted Scald is going to decimate pretty much the whole counter list, not just defensive Heatran.

Mud Shot does the following to Mollux's threatlist:

Standard OU Terrakion: 41.35 - 48.76% (13.28% chance of 2HKO after SR)
Standard Heatran: 47.66 - 56.99% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR without Air Balloon nullification)
OU Choice Scarf Tyranitar: 39.18 - 46.19% (guaranteed 3HKO)
OU reversal Dugtrio: 38.2 - 45.28% (guaranteed 3HKO, but you're better off using Mollux's STABs instead)
Opposing non-defensively-invested Mollux: 71.6 - 85.18% (75% chance to OHKO after SR)
Dragonite, Gliscor, and Landorus: (If you're even thinking about this then go revise your typing chart 100 times. Period.)

So I hereby throw my support behind Mud Shot being allowed in Mollux's movepool.

 

[kjt]

Might I suggest Power Whip? I'm not savvy with damage calculators (or even competent) so I don't know how this would affect Mollux's counters/checks, but coming off a base 45 attack would it really do that much? I think it could do a fair deal to Dugtrio, but only if the opponent was to switch in on Mollux rather than revenge kill.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Might I suggest Power Whip? I'm not savvy with damage calculators (or even competent) so I don't know how this would affect Mollux's counters/checks, but coming off a base 45 attack would it really do that much? I think it could do a fair deal to Dugtrio, but only if the opponent was to switch in on Mollux rather than revenge kill.

Why bother? It's either going to be useless (because it's running off 45 base attack) or too good (because it kills Mollux's checks and counters).

 

[trulyElse]

Worst-Case-Scenario (as in, max damage) for power-whip:

Mollux @Choice Specs
Adamant: 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Vs 4/0 Terrakion:
Vs 4/0 Heatran:
Vs 4/0 Tyranitar: 61.4 - 72.5%
Vs 252/0 Tyranitar: 51.9 - 61.3%
Vs 0/4 Landorus: 38.8 - 45.7%
Vs 4/0 Dugtrio: 184.9 - 217.9%
Vs 0/32 Dugtrio: 176.3 - 207.5%
Vs 252/184 Impish Gliscor: 19.8 - 24.6%
Vs 0/4 Gliscor: 32.0 - 37.0%

Noone would run this - bar gimmick sets - but yeah.

 

[Deck Knight]

Dusk:

Linking to past Non-Attacking Moves Discussions isn't an argument at all. As I've pointed out, Acid Spray is hybridized, I'm selecting it here because I think it's important to consider its effects here, as well as it's standalone damaging ability, which is derivative of its unique mechanics (much like Seed Flare would be). That isn't "voodoo" of any kind. Since its use is for both purposes, and it's competitive with another move used for damaging opponents, the TL gets to decide where it's discussed.

In any case I'll move Scald from Required to Disallowed, and Thunderbolt from Disallowed to Allowed. I'm not at all sold on Giga Drain, which is a heartbeat away from Scald given the draining effect might give Mollux enough HP to survive an attack, but in general I'm not in favor of it, it's still stronger than HP Grass and it frees up that slot for a different Hidden Power.

Mud Shot seems a lot better competitively that Mud Bomb in general, but it's got the same problem as Acid Spray in that you also use it because it drags a lot of foes to a condition where you can cleanly KO them. But there's no way to really call it a supporting move since you're using it for coverage in the absence of a disallowed Earth Power.

Icy Wind's problem is that unlike Mud Shot, which is ineffective against 5/6ths of the Counters list, Icy Wind is effective against half of them, and 2HKO's Landorus, Gliscor, and Duggy, while achieving nothing against things we want to threaten.

Weather Ball requires weather control, but it has similar problems to Scald in Rain in that short of changing the weather of Mollux, it will run over the counters list. That said is is conditional on controlling the weather, which means either Rain Dance Mollux or having to use it with Politoed. I'd like a little more discussion on it.

Firey Dance is a STAB 100 Acc Signature Move of Volcarona's with a Charge Beam effect have the time. It's a bit overpowered imo, so I'll move it to Disallowed.

 

[Juicy]

May I suggest Power Gem?

It fits in nicely with flavour with it being a light bulb and is not over powered as it gives redundant coverage on bug, ice and (assuming thunder) flying. It just gives it another option, with scald being disallowed, to fight back against it's fire type brethren. This may be important when we consider that this pokemon has no resistance to fire with its ability dry skin. Also the fire types bring the sun further hindering mollux.

 

[trulyElse]

It does have resistance to fire; 5/8x resistance.


The rest of what you stead still should be looked into.

 

[Bughouse]

If Scald is to be disallowed, the Thunderbolt move is actually kind of necessary, since we need SOME way (other than HP) to damage defensive Heatran, who is immune to both STABs.

Either way, I would have preferred a more reasonable Sp Attack stat and a wider movepool, but we chose the stat spread we chose.

I guess the next move on my list of concerns is Charge Beam. Part of me says, dear god, no! Mollux's Sp Attack is high enough! But the other part says, Mollux is likely too slow to take any advantage of it at all, and it provides a free switch in for Gliscor, Landorus, and Dugtrio. Unless someone can persuade me of the viability of a Charge Beam set, I'm all for allowing it.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Late again

For what it's worth, I am in support of moving Thunderbolt to Allowed and Scald to Disallowed, if the issue should come up again. I also don't have any issues with anything else in the Allowed/Required lists, save one. Why, exactly, are so many moves suddenly "required"? I was under the impression that this was merely for absolute flavour requirements, such as Toxic and Hidden Power, rather than moves such as Thunder or Sludge Wave, which are not necessitated by either of Mollux's typings or the moves that it does actually require (there are large numbers of Poison-types without Sludge Wave). I am not entirely sure why this is the case but it would appear to be putting a rather large constraint upon those who might actually not want to include Electric-type attacks or Acid Spray in their movepools. These are things that are supposed to differ from movepool to movepool to create a balanced slate, and I'm surprised that the very opportunity to reject them has apparently been rescinded. The Required Move section ought to look like this:

Required

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Hidden Power
Overheat
Sludge Bomb
SolarBeam

With the possible omission of SolarBeam should it be desired.

With regard to the Pending moves, Brine ought to be disallowed, if only for the same reasons as Scald - while it might be weaker than Hidden Power Water (just) it's still a usable attack. To that end, Mud Bomb and Mud Shot should also be disallowed, as both make for viable alternatives to HP Ground that also enable you to select another Hidden Power type. These three moves are all of a type that hit some of the Pokemon that are supposed to be threatening super effectively; while they are not powerful, perhaps, they are distracting and unnecessary, while serving no practical purpose against the Pokemon that we are actually supposed to be beating.

Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, and Signal Beam I am ambivalent on. Assuming we get Thunderbolt, then Jellicent and Starmie will be taken care of regardless, and most other noteworthy Psychic- and Ghost-types in OU are dealt with more effectively by STAB Fire Blast - with the exceptions of Latias and Latios. It may actually be worth adding Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball just for them - or rather, just Latias, as both LO Sludge Wave and LO Shadow Ball will 2HKO Latios, whereas LO Shadow Ball has a chance to 2HKO with Latias, even through Leftovers, whereas LO Sludge Wave can never 2HKO without Stealth Rock or some other prior damage. This may not be such a bad thing, however, if we are trying to encourage the use of its Poison-type STAB. So, I would incline towards "disallow" for these three moves at present, as they are all quite niche and distracting, while STAB Sludge Wave or Sludge Bomb in the same slot has arguably more utility. I wouldn't see any harm in allowing them, though. Hex also falls in this category.

Eruption has a rather nifty relationship with Dry Skin, in that its power is decreased regardless of whether you use it in the rain or the sun. Switching your Mollux into a Water-type attack heals you and also increases the power of Eruption, which is nice, but if you happen to be facing a sun team, then Mollux's HP is decreasing every turn. As a general note, Eruption is only stronger than Fire Blast when Mollux is above 80% of its health - thus if it switches into Stealth Rock once, it's less effective than Fire Blast. To carry it further, it is only stronger than Flamethrower when Mollux is above 63% of its health. I don't see Eruption being too powerful at all - far from it, it's a very interesting option that arguably takes advantage of one of the advantages of Fire, in its access to high-powered STAB attacks, and could also increase Mollux's viability on sun teams (okay maybe not, but still). I'd say allow this move, please.

Lastly, Charge Beam and Power Gem. I know that some people are trying to get Mollux to have Nasty Plot or Tail Glow or whatever, which I disagree with, to the extent that I don't think that boosting moves are entirely necessary or even a good idea here - especially when said boosting move happens to be a super effective attack against Pokemon who are both very common and can't hurt Mollux with their STAB moves. It's not a great idea. You may well say "well why not?", but I don't consider that to be a good attitude to take here. The non-attacking moves discussion will bring what it does, but for me, I'd rather avoid a boosting move of this nature. I won't argue strongly against its inclusion if people really seem to want it, but I'll just urge here the value of moderation.

As far as Power Gem goes, it's just a Hidden Power Rock substitute. The downside is, of course, that you need not actually use Hidden Power Rock any longer, which is again freeing up our Hidden Power slot for something else. And I see that as bad, largely for the reasons that I see most of the good coverage moves here as "bad". I would like to see the Poison-type STAB being made use of to an extent - I accept that one slot will be required for Fire-type STAB, another likely for Thunderbolt, Thunder, or SolarBeam, depending on the team strategy, and one more for a Hidden Power of some description, be it Water, Fighting, Ground, or whatever. Assuming that Mollux will be capable of running a 4-attacking-move set, this leaves one slot for a Poison-type move... or for another coverage move. For that reason I do not want to see Power Gem, as there is far too much use for it in that extra slot. Be it Sludge Bomb or indeed Acid Spray, I would like to see a Poison-type attack as a viable option on at least some sets. So, disallow Power Gem please.

Finally, to finish up, simply because some people seem to be forgetting it, here's the threat list again:

THREATENED BY

Rock- / Ground-types
Tyranitar
Terrakion
Landorus
Dugtrio
Gliscor

Other
Offensive Heatran
CAP 3
Dragonite

THREATENS

Water-types
Politoed
Tentacruel
Jellicent

Other
Defensive Heatran

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Linking to past Non-Attacking Moves Discussions isn't an argument at all. As I've pointed out, Acid Spray is hybridized, I'm selecting it here because I think it's important to consider its effects here, as well as it's standalone damaging ability, which is derivative of its unique mechanics (much like Seed Flare would be). That isn't "voodoo" of any kind. Since its use is for both purposes, and it's competitive with another move used for damaging opponents, the TL gets to decide where it's discussed.

But that's totally wrong. If you really want a bigger post explaining why, here you go.

Acid Spray's being considered competitive is derived from its supporting effect(s). Look at your last post, Deck; you are using Acid Spray as a means to boost Fire Blast's effective BAP. You are supporting Fire Blast through Acid Spray. The only way Acid Spray is even remotely relevant is as a means to boost other moves. That's identical to the way we look at, say, Nasty Plot. The only difference is that Nasty Plot is actually good because it isn't reliant on the opponent (not) making a decision (switching out). Acid Spray may be cool for getting by Taunters, but that's really all it offers over Nasty Plot. It is, by definition, a supporting move, and thus considered in non-attacking moves. You can say that you get to pick as the TL, but this is akin to considering Lava Plume in non-attacking moves because you're primarily using it over Flamethrower for its 30% to burn. That's just not how it works, and I'm very saddened that you're stubbornly defending your position on it.

 

[Tetrinity]

It is, by definition, a supporting move, and thus considered in non-attacking moves.

In all fairness, if somebody brought up a move in Non-Attacking Moves that was capable of achieving a OHKO/2HKO (even if the targets of said KOs are Pokémon like Breloom, Tornadus and Haxorus), they'd be shouted down for bringing up such an offensive move in that discussion. Acid Spray isn't usually considered an attacking move presumably because on a lot of Pokémon it's completely terrible. That isn't really the case with Mollux here.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

A better and more arguable example is U-turn, where STAB U-turn is an offensively powerful weapon, but its secondary effect is arguably why it's such a good move. However, even with 131 SpA and STAB, short of ninja-editing Technician onto CAP 3, Acid Spray is not what's getting us the KOes on anything that matters, the -2 SpD Fire Blast is. Feel free to test it yourself. Don't get me wrong, I do want Acid Spray allowed, but don't fool yourself into thinking that we're sweeping by spamming Acid Spray. Acid Spray cannot even 2HKO anything weak to it in OU (Celebi / Virizion), and quite frankly, Fire Blast is better against both of them anyway. CAP 3 is not built particularly enough to warrant moving Acid Spray to attacking moves.

 

[Tetrinity]

Hmm. Since this thread has had some conflicting statements on the damage output of Acid Spray, I went ahead and did some calcs myself instead of taking them as given (which admittedly was what my last post was based off).

Calcs all with Timid 252SpA LO Mollux:

Acid Spray vs. 236/0 Breloom: 80.6% - 95.6% (slight chance to OHKO with rocks)
Acid Spray vs. 236/212+ Breloom: 55.0% - 65.6% (2HKO)
Acid Spray vs. 0/0 Tornadus: 34.1% - 40.5% (2HKOs with SpD drop)
Acid Spray vs. 36/0 Haxorus: 75.8% - 89.4% (2HKO)
Acid Spray vs. 220/0 Celebi: 42.9% - 51.5% (2HKOs with SpD drop)
Acid Spray vs. 252/224+ Celebi: 31.2% - 37.1% (62.8% - 74.3% at -2, good chance for a 2HKO even with no hazards)
Acid Spray vs. 4/0 Virizion: 42.6% - 50.6% (2HKOs with SpD drop)
Acid Spray vs. 252/0 Virizion: 35.8% - 42.5% (good chance of a 2HKO with SpD drop)

That last one is interesting, because those are the EVs given on the dual screens set. Virizion switches in and can get up a Light Screen to "cancel out" the first SpD drop before a second Acid Spray hits. But then what? Virizion has to either sacrifice itself to set up Reflect, or run away without getting its second screen up, severely weakened from the encounter.

Acid Spray is pretty potent against these guys. Admittedly Fire Blast is more effective in many areas (it's a clean OHKO against the aforemented 252/0 Virizion, for example), but the power of Acid Spray is still apparent. I agree that we're probably not outright sweeping with Acid Spray, but that's not really the point of the move; it's more useful for punching through walls that dare stay in, scouting out opponent's responses early-game and making prediction much more challenging (nothing besides Heatran really enjoys taking both Fire Blast and Acid Spray). In the end the mindset behind using the move is an offensive one, so this feels like a natural enough place to give it discussion.


Regarding a few other moves, since I forgot to mention them in my previous post:

I like Eruption on Mollux. The detrimental effect to its power in either sun or rain is rather amusing, and the option for a potentially even more powerful STAB attack is always nice.

I'm a bit ambivalent on Brine and Mud Shot/Bomb, but am leaning towards disallowing Brine and tentatively allowing Mud Shot/Bomb. They're both hitting Pokémon that should be counters, but at least Mud Shot/Bomb has the downside of risking a free switchin to one of the Ground-immune counters.

Lastly, I feel that the only Grass move that should be permitted is Solarbeam. Mollux should really be relying on Electric attacks to hit Water types, because Grass hits way too much of the list of counters.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

Since Deck said he wanted more feedback on
Weather Ball I would it to be disallowed, as in the rain it becomes a serious threat to the mons we decided would threaten Mollux and it's primarily going to be used in rain anyways

As for other moves I would like to again bring up Mega Drain which I would consider being a competetive move on Mollux! It is a very weak alternative to Solarbeam, but it's still usable outside sun. It would also be a decent recovery move coming off of base 131SpAtk, and I think it merits more discussion!

 

[Bughouse]

I agree entirely on weather ball. Much as it would be fun to use on a Hail team, I know it will over centralize Mollux as a Rain exclusive poke. And that's baaaaaaad.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

In any case I'll move Scald from Required to Disallowed, and Thunderbolt from Disallowed to Allowed. I'm not at all sold on Giga Drain, which is a heartbeat away from Scald given the draining effect might give Mollux enough HP to survive an attack, but in general I'm not in favor of it, it's still stronger than HP Grass and it frees up that slot for a different Hidden Power.

Okay, now that it doesn't have scald:
Fire moves deal reduced damage in the rain
poison attacks have terrible coverage
no scald means that Mollux doesn't even get a rain boosted water attack.

I mean we kind of designed him to be a rain-team pokémon, but now he's essentially neutered in the rain, and he really doesn't poses the special attack necessary to bring things down with non-STAB, non-boosted attacks.

 

[ZhengTann]

Ok, now I'm going to throw my support behind Clear Smog, based on Nyttyn's reasoning:-

...... Clear Smog, I feel, would have a interesting niche on Mollux as giving him a haze that still does a decent chunk of damage coming off of 50 BP. Scizor and Lucario are the only common boosters immune to it, but neither of them will enjoy eating Mollux's fire STABs. I think that out of all the moves not listed, Clear Smog is easily the overlooked option that could have great utility in the current metagame...

At 50 BPA with the secondary effect of removing boosts, it runs along the veins of Acid Spray, so I think its viable to call the move competitive. It deals decent damage coming off Mollux's incredible SpA stats, sure, but like U-turn, the secondary effect is what makes it competitively offensive.

Also, another point in Mud Shot's favor - I would not support Mud Bomb since the extra 10 BPA would net the following results:-

Opposing non-defensive-invested Mollux: 85.44 - 101.54% (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252/252 Mollux: 56.99 - 67.35% (guaranteed 2HKO)
Standard OU Terrakion: 48.76 - 57.4% (92.58% chance to 2HKO)
OU Choice Scarf Tyranitar: 46.19 - 54.38% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
OU Specially Defensive Heatran: 58.18 - 69.61% (guaranteed 2HKO)
OU Offensive Heatran: 83.95 - 100% (6.25% chance to OHKO, meaning guaranteed OHKO with prior damage to pop Air Balloons)
OU Reversal Dugtrio: 45.28 - 53.3% (32.42% chance to 2HKO)

All of a sudden you need one less turn to KO, right at the point where it counts. Hard counters turn into soft checks, so I'd rather throw my support behind Mud Shot's 55 BPA.

Nyttyn had mentioned that Mud Shot's Speed lowering would serve the same purposes, castrating all grounded threats, but the lacking in power means that the bulk of Terrakion and Tyranitar can still enable them to rip Mollux to shreds with the preferred move from EdgeQuake.

BMB's concern about freeing a Hidden Power slot is uncounterable by me, though - looking at the type charts, Mollux needs only Fire STAB, Tbolt, and HP Ice to hit every monotypes with neutral or super-effective damage (considering that dual-types seldom cover each other to defensive perfection, the argument works for dual-typings too). This could lead to little usage of Poison-type moves when Mud Shot helps neuter the rest of Mollux's threatlist, which does not serve the concept well. I'll not change my standing in my former post, but in this case, I hope for more discussion to uncover the murkiness of Mud Shot (I know, lousy pun, and please correct me if the last sentence constitutes a blind poll-jump).

 

[SunnyE]

Clear Smog, Flame Charge, Icy Wind: I think I've made my feelings towards Acid Spray quite clear, and I have it the same way with those 3, so I'm not going to ramble on about it again. Acid Spray, I've been convinced by deck that it should stay here, though, for it's importance in the damage calcs to come.

Mud Shot I think should be disallowed, as the speed drop and the high damage output to our threats will make Mollux outspeed and KO with either another Mud Shot or a coverage move.

Weather Ball I know that I suggested it, but I'm actually against it now. (:P) Mostly because of the "it's SE against too much of our threat list in rain" and "it'll make Mollux a rain-slave" arguments.

Thunderbolt should be allowed, since only having access to Thunder would make Mollux a rain slave, which I really don't want to happen, as it narrows Mollux's possibilities. Mollux's stats make for quite a flexible pokemon, as he can be a wall, a sweeper, or whatever he want's, and as a Fire type with Dry Skin, he's also one of those rare poekmon that can work on many different weather conditions, mainly the arguably best (rain) and 3rd best (sun)

 

[Project_Mars]

Out of the Pending moves:
Eruption - Eruption is a niche move that has sets based around it. Not only that, but given Dry Skin, it could be possible that Mollux could utilize Eruption with Illuminate to better take advantage of a Sun boost (although you become a ton squishier with that, due to water-types having the ability to mess you up.) I say allow Eruption.

Brine - I'm inclined to say Disallow Brine, because it is able to get 2HKOs on its threats, but the fact that they are 2HKOs means it will probably die beforehand.

Charge Beam - I have no real issue with. It lasers water-types for super effective damage and doesn't afraid of anything. Yes it boosts special attack 70% of the time, but it's also a paltry 50 base power, and using that gives up Thunder and Thunderbolt. Perfectly acceptable. Allow Charge Beam.

Dark Pulse/Signal Beam/Hex: I'm putting them together because they have real similar coverage (All share Psychic as SE against. Dark Pulse and Hex are SE vs ghosts, and Signal Beam is SE vs Dark.) It's also coverage that Mollux may not overly care about. I see no issue with Allowing all Three, but if i had to pick one, i would say allow Hex, for being more synergistic with the fire/poison-typing, albeit not flavorful. (Signal Beam makes sense flavor-wise, and Dark Pulse is the strongest of the three.)

Power Gem - At first i was against it, but thinking about it, Allowing Power Gem wouldn't be a bad idea. It's essentially HP-Rock, yes, but the only two counters it can cause a problem for are Dragonite and Mollux. The former has Multiscale and nice bulk and the latter is acceptable since it's supposed to be on its own list of counters. It also deals neutral damage to Heatran (and Ground/Flying types), which is also fine since Mollux is supposed to counter one type of 'Tran, and be threatened by the other. Yes it does free up a spot for another type of hidden power, which is an interesting thing. I happen to think that it shouldn't change much because you would either have to forgo a STAB for an electric move for better water coverage, or have a water-type be able to wall you and threaten you back. This seems fine to me.

Mud Bomb/Mud Shot - This was covered by ZhengTann: Mud Bomb is Disallowed for being a bit too strong, Mud Shot is fine and acceptable.

Shadow Ball - Forgot about this one on my first look over, but didn't want to alter what I've typed. Plus it has a chance for a Sp. Def drop, which is something that could take a few 'mons from being a 3HKO to a 2HKO... Assuming it could hit Blissy. Shadow Ball is acceptable, it's not going to be overly strong (yeah, it's better than Dark Pulse just for the Sp. Def drop chance) on Mollux.

Clear Smog - I like this, but i think it's less an attacking move and more of a support move, due to the stat removing effect far outweighing the damage.

Weather Ball - Mollux is most likely to be seen on a rain team, which means it's most likely to be a 100 Base Power Water move, which will decimate all its counters bar Dragonite. Considering it's a little hard to justify Mollux on any other type of team (bar giving it Eruption.) this would be it's usual mode. Yes it does mean winning the weather war, but you generally would rather save Mollux for that anyways, since it can't do much of anything in Sun or Sand. Disallow Weather Ball, imo.

Mega Drain - This has half the BP of Scald, so the only types that would hate this are Water/Rock, Water/Ground, and Rock/Ground. Using ZhengTann's analysis on Mud Shot (55 Base Power) has it dealing about 39 - 46% on Scarf T-Taur and 41 - 49% on a standard Terrakion. Mega Drain has 15 less base power than that, meaning less damage. I'm sure that the life gain will be fairly negligible due to gaining half of that (let's say, roughly 15% of T-taur and 17% of Terrakion's health) probably not providing nearly enough buffer vs. Earthquake or Stone Edge. Some actual numbers would be nice (I've lost the bookmark to that damage calculator site that was shown to me last CAP) to back it up though, but I think Mega Drain should be fine until proven otherwise.

Razor Shell - Gimmicky Physical Attacker set? I vote this for it, since it has a defense drop component. but a 45 Base Attack isn't going to scare anything, making Physical Water moves okay.

 

[Banryu]

Most people are saying what I'm thinking with regards to moves like Mud Shot, Tbolt, etc...

I did want to say, why allow Weather Ball if Scald is being disallowed? If we don't want Mollux to be using Water attacks in the rain or be a slave to it, Weather Ball is even more of a tie-down to that role than Scald was, it's 20 BP higher than Scald in the rain, no? Therefore, if Scald is disallowed, Weather Ball must be also. Allowing the latter while disallowing the former is contradictory and counterproductive, no?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Finally, to finish up, simply because some people seem to be forgetting it, here's the threat list again:

Even with scald, it's going to be threatened by any ground-type pokemon that can outspeed it or that it can't OHKO (or any strong pokémon with earthquake in general, actually). even moreso outside of the rain (T-Tar's sandstream, for one, would destroy it).

In the rain, with thunder, Moltlusk is going to do well against the water types it's supposed to threaten, for sure, but, again, I say that the awful type coverage of poison and the fact that his Fire STAB is going to be cut in half means that our CAP is going to underperform against most potential opposing pokemon that it can't hit super-effectively with poison or electric. And, obviously, outside of the rain, you gain back his fire STAB, but thunder becomes unreliable more than likely giving him iffy type coverage.

Again, by the letter of the threats and threatening list, I suppose he doesn't NEED scald, but I think without it, he's going to have a really tough time against things that might otherwise be neutral.

 

[Meganium Sulfate]

On Scald; why is it so important? The burn chance is nice, but not reliable, and HP Water is almost as powerful. Scald doesn't allow it to beat its counters any more than it already could, but for a few OHKOs becoming 2HKOs. The only thing it really does is allow Mollux to use HP Ground for coverage as well.

Because any special ground move would allow Mollux to use HP Water, for disallowing Scald to have any real effect, all special Ground moves (mud shot/bomb) must be disallowed.

 

[canno]

I would like to simply say that we should just outright disallow all water-type attacks from our attacking movepool. Ran some calcs with BubbleBeam (65 BP) and, in the rain, it pretty much 2HKO'd our Rock/Ground checks (and with a LO, almost OHKO's all of them). To make matters worst, it couldn't 2HKO SpDef Heatran unless it used a LO. Here are the calcs (Lefties and LO) [btw, Brine has the same BP but with a side effect that could turn some of these 3HKOs into 2HKOs]

Long list is long

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/248 SpDef Heatran (+SpDef) : 41.97% - 49.74% (3 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/248 SpDef Heatran (+SpDef) : 54.92% - 64.25% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Heatran: 69.14% - 81.48% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Heatran: 89.51% - 105.56% (37.5% chance to OHKO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gliscor: 84.18% - 99.44% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gliscor: 109.6% - 128.81% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus: 88.4% - 104.7% (31.25% chance to OHKO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus: 115.36% - 136.05% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 79.63% - 93.83% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 103.09% - 121.6% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Mollux (+SpDef) : 41.12% - 48.73% (3 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Mollux (+SpDef) : 53.81% - 62.94% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Mollux: 57.36% - 68.02% (2 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Mollux (+SpAtk) BubbleBeam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Mollux: 75.13% - 88.32% (2 hits to KO)

Remember, this is fucking BubbleBeam. BubbleBeam is wrecking almost all of our checks/counters. The only ones that aren't threatened are Dragonite and Tyranitar. What's worst, if we carry Lefties, we don't threaten SpDefTran but we threaten OffensiveTran, the complete opposite of what we want. The same goes for Mollux, only max SpDef Mollux can switch in without fear and that's if we carry Leftovers (and not even, we can 2HKO with rocks up) Water coverage in the rain is too strong. :(

I also agree with no special Ground-type coverage, as that opens up the ability to run HP Water, which is slightly stronger than BubbleBeam.

 

[rockspet]

I agree with disallowing Mud Bomb, but Mud Shot should be allowed as a way to hit say, Heatran, without being too intrusive on the threats.
Weather Ball should NOT be on Mollux. It's a super effective move on most of our threats, with pretty good power and it's special based to boot. It doesn't do much on rain threats anyways, so really I don't understand why some people are asking for it. (No offense.)
Charge Beam I believe is of major importance on Mollux. This attack is going to be Mollux's best hope on Politoed, for example, as long as it survives a hit.