CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 3 - Threat Discussion

[DetroitLolcat]

Okay, looking at the typing for Fire/Poison, we can see that it's a pretty bad defensive typing but a decent offensive typing. Looking at the concept, it seems that we want to make CAP3's Fire/Poison typing into a defensive selling point when considering it for a team.

To do that, we have to make sure CAP3 has a way around its potential counters, which means we have to be extra careful when choosing what should counter it because I'm assuming that the Fire/Poison typing needs to aid it defensively.

The easiest thing I see that can be patched up is the Water weakness, since most bulky Waters have weak Water-type attacking options. For this reason, I think Bulky Waters should NOT be able to counter this Pokemon.

Now, the Ground weakness. Ground-type Pokemon will wreck CAP3 no matter what kind of stats we give it, so I think it's a good idea to allow Ground-types to counter this Pokemon.

Rock is one of the odder options here, as Rock is almost never seen by itself. It's usually paired with Ground to make the MissQuake combo, so it will probably be too hard for CAP3 to be able to beat Rock types. For the same reason, Rock-types should not have a problem with CAP3.

Psychic-types are not as common in OU, and the Latis seem to be the only reliable options to beat CAP3 (since Starmie can't switch into neutral STAB moves in general).

Since it will be incredibly difficult for CAP3 to beat many of the Rock and Ground type attackers, I believe that it would probably be a good idea to minimize the number of threats to this Pokemon that are not Rock or Ground type.

Let's look at the Pokemon that resist CAP3's STAB:

Heatran, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Terrakion, and Tyranitar are the five that jump to mind. Individually, let's see what each one can do to CAP3.

Heatran-Offensive Tran might be the perfect switch to this Pokemon, since it's immune to the STAB moves of CAP3. However, we should also note that most Offensive Tran use Air Balloon, negating their Ground weakness. Specially Defensive Tran does not run this set, nor can it counter Fire/Poison very well. For that reason, I think CAP3 should be able to beat Defensive Heatran, but not Offensive Heatran. Ground-type coverage seems the best way to go here to preserve balance.

Jellicent- I think CAP3 should be able to beat Jellicent. Jellicent is nothing but a wall and what screams "Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition" more than a Fire type that can beat Bulky Waters? If we provide a method for CAP3 to stall or defeat Jellicent, we really do wonders for the concept.

Tentacruel: Same as Jellicent

Terrakion: Terrakion will be able to beat CAP3 no matter what we do honestly, since Stone Edge from the rock monster is simply too powerful. I'm in favor of letting Terrakion beat us.

Tyranitar: Since Rock and Ground are the chief weaknesses of this Pokemon, I think we should only beat Tyranitar if it foregoes Stone Edge.

Other checks I see as logical are Landorus and Starmie. The reason I include these two Pokemon as good threats is because unless we really pump up the movepool and stats beyond reasonable levels, we will not beat these Pokemon normally. Therefore, beating these two Pokemon would be too difficult to do and should be avoided.

I think a good mindset for determining threats to CAP3 is to:

1. Find the Pokemon that should be able to beat a "mainstream" Fire/Poison Pokemon
2. Determine if it's possible for CAP3 to reasonably beat each of the Pokemon listed in Step 1.
3. If yes, then do not include that Pokemon as a threat to CAP3. If no, then let that Pokemon be a threat to CAP3.

A look at the OU list makes me think that Terrakion, Tyranitar (with Stone Edge only), Starmie, Offensive Heatran, Choice Politoed, and Landorus would make good threats to CAP3 while Bulky Waters, Defensive Heatran, Defensive Politoed, and Tyranitar without Stone Edge should not be threats.

 

[fourkings8414]

Why might I be using CAP3 over Heatran or Volcarona on my team, the two most-used fire types (Ninetales excluded)? Or rather, how might we design the typing advantages of CAP3 to make it an appealing option over the other OU Fire-types?

The one other thing that I think we should focus on is not only how we plan to fight back those pesky water types, but what we plan to do against all the other pokemon in basic strategy. Volcarona and Heatran are mainly hard-hitting pokemon, the former usually a set-up sweeper. I can totally picture this pokemon as a support pivot through status. Providing the team with residual damage via burn or toxic/poison to weaken enemies slowly, possibly bringing them down to KO range, as I see it, is invaluable towards team support. Not to mention, D-nite's Multiscale would be more troublesome to uphold with a burn or toxic. Physical sweepers all around would have trouble switching in. Walls would not want to have toxic status. And if paralysis is not necessary for the team, a status thrown on any other pokemon is welcomed just for that little bit of damage it could provide.

Looking at DK's threat list and threaten's list, I arrive to these ideas.

That said, any physical attacker should think twice about switching in. Namely those Rock/Ground pokes mentioned already such as Ttar, Landorus, and Terrakion to an extent. Maybe we can even catch Gliscor off guard before his Toxic Orb activates!

Water types need to be aware of STAB Poison moves along with whatever we plan to provide as coverage. However, I do not see this typing staying in for long if a water-pokemon just came in unless we do pack some kind of immunity. Water is difficult to fight against even if we resist just about every coverage move they have. Now only if we are generally faster than those threatening us, I do not see this happening. I do not think we need a coverage move like Thunderbolt/Discharge (!) or Giga Drain/Seed Bomb when status already provides such a huge plus for this typing. However, I will reiterate being able to counter most, if not all, water types would be crucial for this pokemon. Toxic will aid us while getting them on a possibly switch, and if we are faster, we can strike them with a coverage move. It is either speed or an ability that will allow us to take on water types given we have some coverage.

Psychic types should be fine how they are. Lati@s strong even without a psychic move and I don't think we plan to stay in for a Draco Meteor. Alakazam and Reuniclus are already strong with the former being so quick to the point I do not think CAP 3 needs to outspeed to kill it or try to survive a hit.

DK goes on to mention his ideas for covering certain types and though I see the general idea for having a coverage move, I believe this route a more practical and straight forward. Burn takes care of the physical spectrum for the most part, why not focus on the special side, namely water-types? Rotom-W, I think, can easily toy with CAP 3 if we do not focus

So for me, it is somewhat like Ferrothorn. Being able to attack with high BP moves from a mediocre attack stat is enough to have an offensive presence while also providing support through those moves should be enough to let it succeed in OU. Possibly, my assumption that CAP 3 will receive status inflicting moves was a bad move :/ It may even be that I am focusing too much on the moves themselves though this is because they are our STAB options. I apologize in advance if this brings some frowns.

 

[Venator]

I'm not going to pretend I'm this fabulous battler who knows everything, but I love the thought of CAP 3 being the first Fire-type to not be countered by Water-types except in typing only.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think calling Gastrodon or, indeed, any of the Water/Ground Pokemon threats is a mistake. If these Pokemon can successfully EQ CAP 3, then yes, it will die. That much no one can disagree with. That said, these Pokemon are very slow and very exploitable, and Grass-type coverage may end up critical to the CAP in achieving its job of handling popular Water-types on rain teams (Think Rotom-W). These Pokemon should be ones that have trouble switching into CAP 3, but inversely CAP 3 has trouble switching into. This is much the same way Dragonite, the Psychic-types, and the Fighting-types function.

On that note, I think that listing the Psychic- and Fighting-types in any appreciable way is more than is necessary. It's much like Dragonite, just less eminent; none of these Pokemon really want to eat STAB Fire Blast or Flare Blitz, and some can theoretically be KOed by either after some hazards or 2HKOed by a faster CAP 3, etc. These Pokemon shouldn't really be worried about here. If we beat some and lose to some others, no problem at all. I think Reuniclus will have the hardest time of the Psychic-types because I can't imagine it outspeeding CAP 3.

And for the record, any 4x weak to Fire-type Pokemon is pretty much, by definition, threatened by STAB Fire. I think it is unnecessary to list them as a major guiding force for the project. Maybe Deck likes having them there for emphasis, though, so whatever.

My belief stands that the lists we should focus on maintaining as guiding forces throughout the project are as follows:

THREATENED BY

Rock- / Ground-types
Tyranitar
Terrakion
Landorus
Dugtrio
Gliscor

Other
Heatran
CAP 3
Dragonite

THREATENS

Water-types
Politoed
Tentacruel
Jellicent

​

Let me reiterate that it's unnecessary to have anything with STAB SE attacks listed here. If they have no business switching into us and we have no business switching into them, then they are not really so much a concern. The only notable exception is Dragonite, which is because it can take a boosted Fire-type attack, and with Multiscale doesn't care much about even most strong HPIce. It is a pretty reliable Pokemon to take on CAP 3, and I think that's fair. I don't list the Lati's because, as they are specially focused, we shouldn't really focus on defeating or being defeated by them. Most of these Pokemon I have put in Neutral Match-Up below so that we don't forget they exist, but remember that they aren't really relevant. Deck can decide if he wants to keep them listed for posterity or not.

NEUTRAL MATCH-UP

Gastrodon
Latios
Latias
Reuniclus
Espeon
Alakazam
Conkeldurr
Infernape
Mienshao​

What we have listed here is enough true checks in the competitive Pokemon sense to have a balanced Pokemon. Let's not sell CAP 3 short here.

 

[Wyverii]

Poll-jumping here for a bit to make a point.

Agreed. A powerful Gunk Shot, or Acid Spray + a neutral coverage move, should both be able to get past pretty much any Water type other than Gastrodon and Tentacruel, and they can be played around with other Pokemon fairly easily.

That said, I do want this thing to get Power Whip for lols.

This sort of thing right here is not on at all. Stating that you're about to poll-jump is not going to make what you're about to say any better and a lot of people have been doing this of recent. Poll-jumping is not allowed for a reason.

Please stop making these sorts of assumptions. You cannot say for sure that CaP 3 is going to have any ability, moveset or range of stats, and conversely you cannot be sure that it won't have them either. You can only speculate and go off things that have been set in stone such as the traits of existing Pokemon and our CaP's typing. That is it. If you assume it will get anything or attempt to push for something specific long before it's time to discuss it then we run the risk of breaking the process when people attempt to fit it into that mold regardless of what actually happens. We don't want a broken CaP, please stop poll-jumping.

 

[kingtrace]

Rising_Dusk has me in agreement, as usual. There are only two ways that CAP3 would be unable to adequately attack Water/Ground types, and those are being slower than them or being so low on special attack that hidden power grass cannot be used effectively. One or both of these may yet be true, but for now it's more logical to assume it could run HP grass at least semi-effectively. Dusk's threat list is solid, and I think it is a very logical list to include going foward.

 

[fourkings8414]

I'm sorry for dragging SunnyE into this. I wasn't hoping for that to happen at all. I'll be more constructive with my posts.

I think calling Gastrodon or, indeed, any of the Water/Ground Pokemon threats is a mistake. If these Pokemon can successfully EQ CAP 3, then yes, it will die. That much no one can disagree with. That said, these Pokemon are very slow and very exploitable, and Grass-type coverage may end up critical to the CAP in achieving its job of handling popular Water-types on rain teams (Think Rotom-W). These Pokemon should be ones that have trouble switching into CAP 3, but inversely CAP 3 has trouble switching into. This is much the same way Dragonite, the Psychic-types, and the Fighting-types function.

Water-types
Politoed
Tentacruel
Jellicent

There are two ways that I see we can combat water-types. That is by ability and coverage. The ability route wouldn't necessarily allow us to threaten water-types, just have an easier way in. The other, however, allows some flexibility and some more brainstorming on our part. Thus far, I see coverage with electric attacks being fairly beneficial for CAP 3 against rain teams, even hitting Tornadus for SE damage. Grass on the other hand would allow us to hit three types of threats we may worry about, ground and rock along with the aforementioned water. Having this type of move would allow us to not only threaten many physical sweepers of this type with a burn, but having them risk being hit by an SE move. I see the former being a more popular choice.

One concern that Dusk brings up is the need to be quick. If we do not take the ability route, and hopefully we do not, being a bit fast would allow us to hit those types before they can hit us at least. I'm imagining something like a speedy tank. I do support my earlier post about the status moves still as this would definitely impact how we play. Coverage + status of some sort would combine well as a way to threaten most water types from CAP 3.

If we do not invest in speed during the stat spread phase, we have a boring CAP where its ability is what mainly helps the typing, not moves or stats.

 

[SunnyE]

1: sorry for the poll-jumping, wyverii was right in deleting the post

2: fourkings8414 you didn't drag me into anything, don't worry about it =P

3: well, the main intention of my post (that poll-jumped a bit to much) was pretty much: I think that CAP3 should be capable of making even threats think twice about coming in, since the Fire sub-typing makes CAP3 take 25% damage every time he comes in, and is also hit by spikes, so CAP3 doesn't like to switch in and out very much, so if CAP comes in and there are to many pokemon that can simply switch in on anything and force CAP3 out, that would be a big problem. This can be done in a number of ways, powerful moves, access to various status-moves, etc...

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

There are two ways that I see we can combat water-types. That is by ability and coverage. The ability route wouldn't necessarily allow us to threaten water-types, just have an easier way in. The other, however, allows some flexibility and some more brainstorming on our part...

And we must select either one or the other and cannot possibly do both because... what exactly?

If we do not take the ability route, and hopefully we do not...

I think that people need to stop being scared of good abilities. Abilities are a significant part of the puzzle. If we're not going to use them, why have them? Don't let that interfere with this discussion.

In any case, remember that one of the benefits to designing this Pokemon to be able to deal with water types is to encourage it to actually use its Poison STAB as opposed to solely relying on its Fire STAB. This is an important part of how we can accomplish the goal of the concept, so I don't support anything that would undermine that, such as the coverage that you're suggesting.

. . . I don't even know anymore whether this post is poll-jumping.

 

[BloodGod22]

And we must select either one or the other and cannot possibly do both because... what exactly?

I think that people need to stop being scared of good abilities. Abilities are a significant part of the puzzle. If we're not going to use them, why have them? Don't let that interfere with this discussion.

In any case, remember that one of the benefits to designing this Pokemon to be able to deal with water types is to encourage it to actually use its Poison STAB as opposed to solely relying on its Fire STAB. This is an important part of how we can accomplish the goal of the concept, so I don't support anything that would undermine that, such as the coverage that you're suggesting.

. . . I don't even know anymore whether this post is poll-jumping.

Indeed.

People are such divas when it comes to good abilities...

Anyway, i think people are putting to much emphasis on CAP3's Poison type to counter bulky waters. However, pokemons like Jellycent, Tentacruel and Gastrodon still wall it to hell and back.
I think he should be able to counter most of them, and only be countered by Heatran, Dragonite, etc.

Its the only niche it can currently fill that no other Fire type can in OU and i think that should be the main focus of this CAP.

 

[kingtrace]

And we must select either one or the other and cannot possibly do both because... what exactly?

I think that people need to stop being scared of good abilities. Abilities are a significant part of the puzzle. If we're not going to use them, why have them? Don't let that interfere with this discussion.

In any case, remember that one of the benefits to designing this Pokemon to be able to deal with water types is to encourage it to actually use its Poison STAB as opposed to solely relying on its Fire STAB. This is an important part of how we can accomplish the goal of the concept, so I don't support anything that would undermine that, such as the coverage that you're suggesting.

. . . I don't even know anymore whether this post is poll-jumping.

Jumping on board this train. There's is no reason why we can't use a decent ability AND coverage to counter waters. Though, I think this may be reaching beyond the topic of threat discussion.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I would like to bring up my previously held beliefs that CaP3's checks and counters should come from a variety of playstyles, and putting all of its checks as Pokemon commonly seen on sand or sun teams is incredibly short-sighted. If Volt-turn, stall, and Rain Pokemon are all checked or at a neutral matchup at best, then that leaves sand as the sole reliable check to the Pokemon. I believe this is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame, and it should have a small list of counters that belong to many different playstyles.

Sun:

CaP3 is a natural stop to sun in a similar vein to Heatran, due to its resistance to fire, and four times resist to grass. That said, there are some common sun Pokemon who should at least check it. Notably, Heatran and Dugtrio do so by virtue of typing with no real alterations to the CaP necessary. Therefore, I would support keeping Dugtrio as a check, and offensive Heatran as a counter (bar Hidden Power).

Stall (Weatherless and general):

I've mentioned that Fire/Poison absolutely loves destroying stall, and I've increasingly viewed just how accurate this statement is. That said, users have raised points about stall already being weak, and to be honest a Pokemon so weak to offense doesn't need to be shut down by many walls. However, I do believe that CaP3 should be threatened by Refresh Latias. Latias resists the more offensive STAB of CaP3, and can shrug off Toxic damage while setting up. This provides a well made stall team with a way of circumventing CaP, and a good way of beating what is by typing an excellent stallbreaker. While I would list Jellicent, the jellyfish should probably be scared of taking any sort of status that inflicts residual damage. Latias provides a good check for defensive teams, and will contribute to spreading all of CaP3's counters away from "sand offense."

Rain:

Going through the list, there were four Pokemon that I think CaP3 should not be able to deal with in this field. While having a fire type that beats rain would be really cool, making a Pokemon that shuts the average rain team down and that gets devoured by sand may not be healthy for the metagame as a whole. Therefore, I think that four rain threats should check or counter it to make up for sand. While this may seem a bit much, I think that it is reasonable given the list.

The first is Tentacruel. Tentacruel has a fairly high Special Attack, as well as a typing that flies in the face of CaP3. Additionally, it is given a free pass to set up, and provides a solid counter for rain teams that they might otherwise lack, that doesn't require breaking synergy or seriously rethinking the viability of rain stall as we know it. The second check is also bulky, but for similar reasons. I think that HydroRest Vaporeon should be able to situationally check CaP3. With its considerable bulk and near immunity to status, as well as a special attack stat high enough to prevent CaP3 from being comfortable with anything less than an immunity ability, Vaporeon is an excellent check that can be dealt with by team support. This prevents CaP3 from being too weak to rain stall, as Vappy can still be dealt with by its own weather or taunt (if it should get it), as well as any sort of team support with sand, sun, or hail.

The last two are rain offense, and are going to check CaP3 whatever we give it, short of an immunity to water. These are Starmie and Choice Politoed. I believe that these two should naturally check CaP3 due to typing, and it seems reasonable. Adding two checks into the equation seems to be no far stretch, and prevents rain from losing out to sand in almost all cases in a metagame with CaP3.

The last few checks and counters have been done to death, and I will simply list them:

Terrakion, Landorous, Reuniclus, Tyranitar, etc, Conkeldurr. These Pokemon are going to check CaP3 bar ridiculous efforts, and I believe it is healthy to keep them this way to avoid turning this into "How do we check a huge list of Pokemon with a typing not designed to do so."

In conclusion:

Counters:

Offensive Heatran
Refresh Latias
Tentacruel
Dugtrio
Choice Politoed

Checks:

Tyranitar
Terrakion
Landorous
Vaporeon
Starmie
CaP3
Reuniclus
Conkeldurr




Tyranitar, Landy, and Terrakion are down in "checks" because they won't want to risk burn HAX from fire moves (or will-o-wisp), but can easily switch in with a Lum Berry. Notably, Gastrodon is absent from my list. This is because I view it as a rain check that isn't needed, as it hates Poisoning, and it would be hard to find ways around it without countering every other bulky water, and making rain stall almost unviable.

 

[willking77]

I would not view dugtrio as anything more than a check, as strong fire attacks, fire blast, flare blitz and co would prevent it from switching in without taking lots of damage.

 

[capefeather]

Because it seems this stage is still not that well-understood:

The purpose of the poll-jumping rule is to prevent people from assuming that the Pokémon being made has certain traits. It's true that it's technically very hard not to make assumptions about not having certain traits, but the idea of this stage is not just to identify potential threats. It's to decide whether they should be threats. The point is to cover all the bases and consider all the possibilities (which is not poll-jumping), not to pigeonhole ourselves into "yes" or "no" for everything. At the same time, we want to be able to validate future arguments intended to balance the Pokémon so that we don't give it something in one stage that causes a lot of awkwardness in another.

As for the topic at hand:

The main controversy seems to be with respect to Water-types and some other Fire resists. Refresh Latias and other CMers are "whatever" as far as I'm concerned; I don't think they should be "counters", in that we should keep open the possibility of using a set tailored to beat them. Choice Politoed is pretty dangerous to let threaten CAP 3, if we want CAP 3 to fare decently against rain. CAP 3 already walls nearly all of Choice Politoed's likely moves except its STAB. So if Politoed is beating CAP 3, what exactly is CAP 3 supposed to do against the other Water-types? Vaporeon is very much the same way. Starmie I suppose still has Thunderbolt if not its Water STAB... What we do about this will probably greatly impact Tentacruel as well, since it and CAP 3 have a strange relationship to begin with. CAP 3 can come in on, say, Ferrothorn to remove Tentacruel's Toxic Spikes, but the Stealth Rock weakness means it may not be too difficult to wear down. There's also the fact that Scald cannot burn CAP 3.

 

[Deck Knight]

My point on the Water/Ground Pokemon being threats is primarily that by definition the only effective way around them would be to have useful Grass coverage (which sadly excludes Solarbeam in non-sun Weathers) to handle them. The issue with that being Grass is also super-effective against Ground and Rock.

That said, the threats we've compiled thus far are either neutral to Grass through typing. pick up a SpDef boost in Sandstorm, are are otherwise bulky enough in their own right to deal with it.

That being said, I think now would be a good time to announce how we're moving forward:

First, since dealing with Bulky Waters is such an immediate concern:

The next stage to be discussed shifted from stats to ability. Abilities are much more effective in this regard because Bulky Waters are usually backed by Rain, and not even a stat spread as unbalanced as Blissey's will be successful if we truly want to threaten bulky waters. Combine with the fact we will have to rely on coverage and not STAB to break through them, and the need for Abilities to be next on the docket is obvious.

Next, a 24 hour warning for anyone with objections, concerns, or anything else we might need to cover before the discussion closes.

 

[Svartwolf]

mmm.. i believe that abilities would be an important part of this cap and people are discussing this cap to not being threathen by water types, which probably would be accomplished better with an specific ability.

it would be interesting if this mon had 2 abilities which let it work around 2 diffferent types of pokes, one for water types, and another could be for priority abusers/fighters.

while this cap doen't get threathened by fighting per se, it can have some trouble against fighting pokes able to switch moves carrying EQ or stone edge. i don't want to poll jump, but giving this poke an abbility like flame body would immediatly became a threath to a lot of fighting tipes and another pokes by threathening to switch on a resisted fighting attack, sponging the hit and having a chance of burning the attacker. this way this poke would use its combination of fighting resist of poison and its fire type to grant flame body as defensive selling points, and ground would still threathen greatly this poke (aside EQ is not a contact move)

my point is that ground should be a threat to this poke (therefore no levitate) but it should have a way of not being threathened by most fighting types. and if you think it, having a poke making water, steel and fighting pokes life harder on OU metagame would be an interesting thing, now we only need a dragon slayer :O

 

[Pokethan]

Just wanted to say I am super happy with how this CAP is going so far and that I really feel we are making a pokemon that fits within the concept and is unique in its own right. Good job so far guys!

 

[Jellicent]

The general consensus seems to be that CAP 3 should check Water-types, and I definitely see that being a great niche. One Water-type in particular that I'd like to see it beat is Rotom-W. By virtue of typing alone, CAP 3 beats out Scizor; breaking down the other major player for VoltTurn will definitely be a boon to its viability.

The ability to check Water-types will also make it desirable in the weather wars. As a Fire-type, it should of course be useful in sun. If it can check Water-types, however, it gains a solid niche in both of the major weathers.

In rain, it'll be a key member that can combat both sun (where it should function at least decently due to typing) and opposing rain (since, well, we're making it check Water-types). It'll also be a good defense against VoltTurn, which is always a plus. While a weak link against sand, it's Water-type allies should have those threats largely covered.

In sand, it'll also be a great team player. Something that can put a halt to opposing rain teams and VoltTurn, while also holding its own in sun, will be a great asset for sand teams. The Rock- and Ground-types commonly found on sand teams should do a decent enough job of mirror matching opposing Rock- and Ground-types, while also cleanly beating Heatran and CAP 3.

And of course, as a Fire-type, it shouldn't be THAT threatened by hail, especially with its Toxic immunity and ability to absorb T-Spikes (assuming no Levitate >.>).

I definitely like where this is going, and I'm looking forward to seeing just how we make this thing check Water-types ^.^

 

[riekku]

I had previously hinted that having a water-immune ability would be necessary for it to beat water types. However, I believe that having bulk and anyone of horn leech/giga drain would also work as your health cannot be chipped down by toxic.

Do we want it to check water types to the extent where it can freely switch in on water moves? I'm not sure if that's a good idea...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I had previously hinted that having a water-immune ability would be necessary for it to beat water types. However, I believe that having bulk and anyone of horn leech/giga drain would also work as your health cannot be chipped down by toxic.

Do we want it to check water types to the extent where it can freely switch in on water moves? I'm not sure if that's a good idea...

I don't think so either. Giving it Water-type impunity might be a serious problem related to the concept, as we're not playing by its typing anymore, trying to draw out something good out of its apparently bad typing.

I don't think anyone here even thinks CAP3 shouldn't be able to leave a dent on Rain teams, however. The question is, how is it doing it? Will it check Politoed? The fast Rain users, such as Tornadus and Starmie? The Steels (well fine lol Fire Blast, but Scizor loves its U-Turns and Jirachi and Ferrothorn may still paralyze it)? The bulkier Watermons? Will we use coverage, or raw power?

Personally, I'd find it better if we could find a way for CAP3 to deal with Jellicent, Tentacruel and the like, as we're talking about a grounded, Rock-weak Firemon here; it's going to be a bit too easy to deplete its health, and making it bulky enough to deal with Starmie and friends may be a problem. If it's going to be a check against Rain teams, it seriously can't be stopped dead exactly by the pokémon used in Rain Stall, as those teams are specifically the kind that makes you switch in and out a lot and then throw hazards and then you're DEAD without even touching them


Huh, I don't know if I make much sense anymore. The points are, being a grounded Firemon, it will lose health relatively quickly; it can't simply freely switch in on Water-type moves, or we wouldn't be playing along with its typing that much anymore; if we let it be stopped by defensive Watermons and Rainmons, it will be ran over by every single Rain Stall player and their nieces, as Jellicent and the like will force him out so much it's not going to be funny, and there will be a billion hazards and residual damage from weak-ass Scalds (even if we give it DROUGHT) every time he switches in.


Talking about Drought... would suggesting it be made a good Sunny Day user be considered poll-jumping?

 

[Mari]

I think that Dugtrio and Trapinch are only then checks if CAP3 has no baloon. But if it HAS a baloon, it loses the ability to stop Toxic Spikes. However I don't think this Pokémon will be a good Toxic Spikes remover, because it takes 25% SR damage on every switch in (We could give it Regenerator, but Tentacruel is still better) I see big trouble with many starters like Azelf, Aerodactyl or Donphan. Then fast Psychics like Espeon and Lati@s can be a problem. Overmore there are bulky Waters and other special walls like Tentacruel, Empoleon, Gastrodon and Reinculus. There are so many counters and they are so different. This will not be easy to balance, but can we do it? Yes we can!

 

[Deck Knight]

I don't think so either. Giving it Water-type impunity might be a serious problem related to the concept, as we're not playing by its typing anymore, trying to draw out something good out of its apparently bad typing.

I don't think anyone here even thinks CAP3 shouldn't be able to leave a dent on Rain teams, however. The question is, how is it doing it? Will it check Politoed? The fast Rain users, such as Tornadus and Starmie? The Steels (well fine lol Fire Blast, but Scizor loves its U-Turns and Jirachi and Ferrothorn may still paralyze it)? The bulkier Watermons? Will we use coverage, or raw power?

Personally, I'd find it better if we could find a way for CAP3 to deal with Jellicent, Tentacruel and the like, as we're talking about a grounded, Rock-weak Firemon here; it's going to be a bit too easy to deplete its health, and making it bulky enough to deal with Starmie and friends may be a problem. If it's going to be a check against Rain teams, it seriously can't be stopped dead exactly by the pokémon used in Rain Stall, as those teams are specifically the kind that makes you switch in and out a lot and then throw hazards and then you're DEAD without even touching them


Huh, I don't know if I make much sense anymore. The points are, being a grounded Firemon, it will lose health relatively quickly; it can't simply freely switch in on Water-type moves, or we wouldn't be playing along with its typing that much anymore; if we let it be stopped by defensive Watermons and Rainmons, it will be ran over by every single Rain Stall player and their nieces, as Jellicent and the like will force him out so much it's not going to be funny, and there will be a billion hazards and residual damage from weak-ass Scalds (even if we give it DROUGHT) every time he switches in.


Talking about Drought... would suggesting it be made a good Sunny Day user be considered poll-jumping?

As far as immunity abilities, I don't think they are outside the line of this concept. Remember DPP, when Swampert was the top dog of Water/Ground? Now Gastrodon is. And why? Storm Drain makes it an unparalleled counter to Rain, since it can actually switch in and use Recover. Immunity abilities don't exist in a vacuum, they also interact with the type and become an integral part of the Pokemon, using its own natural weaknesses and resistances as part of how it executes its strategy. Half of the reason Gengar for example exists is how easily it can come in on several kinds of attacks, and Rotom-W benefits heavily as well.

It also is advantageous for this particular typing if the Pokemon can be used in Rain, since it dampens Fire-STAB. Poison is at least weather-neutral. The theoretical trade-off for the cut in Fire-STAB is well worth it, and STAB Fire still allows it to threaten Ferrothorn in Rain. Even then, it still at least has some form of STAB, and it benefits that the particular STAB it enjoys in neutral to Water, even if Jellicent and Tentacruel specifically resist it.

Finally, it leverages all of these qualities in a way no other typing could, since the resistances Fire brings to the table are formidable, further dampening U-turn, resisting Bullet Punch, and on the more special end of things resisting Ice Beam and being neutral to Electric attacks. Finally, against a Sun team it would get boosted Fire-STAB, giving the Pokemon a good deal of weather flexibility. In general it's a very brilliant combination because of the typing pair, and relevant to OU in a way another Water/Poison or a different esoteric typing would be.

I shot down Wonder Guard so early since it fundamentally makes the Pokemon all about Wonder Guard. Immunity abilities however are widely available in OU and patch up otherwise lackluster typings. Ghost/Poison without the Ground immunity is not a good type at all, it's heavily redundant defensively and mediocre offensively. Specific immunities aren't usually that powerful or defining, though they can synergize very well with the actual typing. What we're going for here is a similar effect, taken to its logical conclusion.

 

[RotationalBasis]

Regardless of whether they are appropriate or not, I think we should consider alternatives to immunity abilities and see whether we can come up with nevertheless acceptable lists of checks and counters. For example, if we are happy to be countered by Rock and Ground (which we are) but want to be able to switch into bulky waters (which it seems we do), that's something we can achieve in ways other than with immunity abilities (which is good, because we shouldn't feel shoehorned into specific abilities, as that would result in lots of poll-jumping...).

For the sake of providing a couple of examples, something as ludicrous as Skill Swap, Role Play or Trace would cripple Jellicent, Gastrodon, Vaporeon and other absorbers, as well as lowering Gyarados' attack and potentially robbing Tentacruel of Rain Dish. If that sounds too much like just giving CAP one of those abilities, how about giving it high Sp.Defense? Earthquake and Stone Edge still threaten you like before, but a measly Scald won't burn your pokemon or their HP.

Whilst none of these things are to be decided now (read: I don't want this to look like a poll jump itself), it's worth acknowledging their existence because otherwise people get paranoid into thinking there is only one way to achieve the agreed upon goal. Particularly pertinent when you realise that already a good 50% of the designs in the art thread are built around the idea of having Dry Skin, which is particularly scary to someone like me who hasn't made up their mind yet.

 

[Deck Knight]

Regardless of whether they are appropriate or not, I think we should consider alternatives to immunity abilities and see whether we can come up with nevertheless acceptable lists of checks and counters. For example, if we are happy to be countered by Rock and Ground (which we are) but want to be able to switch into bulky waters (which it seems we do), that's something we can achieve in ways other than with immunity abilities (which is good, because we shouldn't feel shoehorned into specific abilities, as that would result in lots of poll-jumping...).

For the sake of providing a couple of examples, something as ludicrous as Skill Swap, Role Play or Trace would cripple Jellicent, Gastrodon, Vaporeon and other absorbers, as well as lowering Gyarados' attack and potentially robbing Tentacruel of Rain Dish. If that sounds too much like just giving CAP one of those abilities, how about giving it high Sp.Defense? Earthquake and Stone Edge still threaten you like before, but a measly Scald won't burn your pokemon or their HP.

Whilst none of these things are to be decided now (read: I don't want this to look like a poll jump itself), it's worth acknowledging their existence because otherwise people get paranoid into thinking there is only one way to achieve the agreed upon goal. Particularly pertinent when you realise that already a good 50% of the designs in the art thread are built around the idea of having Dry Skin, which is particularly scary to someone like me who hasn't made up their mind yet.

Much as I hate to be the buzzkill here, let's face reality:

You can't check anything if you can't switch in. Skill Swap doesn't work against anything but Jellicent, and that's only if it has Water Absorb instead of Cursed Body. You also have to be in to even use it, which means eating attacks not one, but potentially two turns. Rain is going to slaughter anything relying on Skill Swap. The primary reason I want abilities to come next is because movepool is always last anyway, and if we can discuss abilities first it can allow us to limit stats to what we need rather than trying to beef up stats and then deciding against an effective ability.

As far as the Trace option, that's something we can discuss in Ability. There is otherwise no *reasonable* way to switch a Fire type into a Water type in Rain, especially since there are both Physical and Special Water-type attacks. The only option to mitigate is to discuss it in depth with the only aspect of the Pokeon powerful enough to change that, since stats and movepool don't hack it.

 

[uwnim]

Deck Knight said that abilities are going to be discussed next, so there shouldn't be any poll-jumping caused by assumptions about the ability. I am sure people are aware that there are possibilities besides Dry Skin, it is being brought up because the only ways to take on water types is with coverage moves or abilities. Specific moves cannot be discussed at all since the usability of them depends on ability and stats.

Anyways, I like what you guys have decided in here.