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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, Oct 7, 2012.

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  1. uxsee


    Jul 23, 2011
    Final Submission

    HP: 94
    Attack: 125
    Defense: 116
    S. Attack: 112
    S. Defense: 65
    Speed: 88
    BST: 600

    PT: 195.0542
    ST: 112.4706
    PS: 191.5203
    SS: 174.4911
    BSR: 379.1261

    Why I Chose Each Stat:

    HP: OU Psychics
    Show Hide

    I chose to do OU psychic types since OU is the tier that CAP4 will be introduced to and psychic is one of CAP4's types (Bug is used for Sp. Def).

    I averaged all of the HP Stats of the psychic type pokemon in OU with the top 5 highest HP stats, since OU psychic type HP stats are relatively low and CAP4 needs a high HP stat to possess bulk. These were 110, 100, 100, 80, and 80.
    110+100+100+80+80= 470
    470/5= 94

    Attack: Many Different Influences
    Show Hide
    Top 3 Psychics:
    I selected three non-uber psychic type pokemon with the highest attack and got Metagross, Azelf, and Gallade with 135, 125, and 125, respectively.

    Top 3 Bugs:
    I selected three non-uber bug type pokemon with the highest attack and got Escavalier, Scizor, and Heracross with 135, 130, and 125, respectively.

    I added Zoroark into the average because Zoroark is the only final evolution Pokemon with Illusion, one of the CAP4's abilities, and has a nice attack stat of 105.

    Weak Armor
    I selected the Pokemon with the highest attack that had weak armor, one of CAP4's abilities, which was Kabutops, whose attack stat is 115.

    No Guard
    I selected Golurk and Machamp because they are both final evolution Pokemon who have No Guard, one of CAP4's abilities, and have beefy attack stats of 12 and 130, respectively.

    105+115+124+130+135+125+130+135+125= 1124
    1124/9= 124.999... which rounds to 125

    CAP 4 would share this stat with, most notably, Gallade, Heracross, Armaldo, Pinsir, who all share a type with CAP4.

    Defense: Weak Armor
    Show Hide
    I decided to select Weak Armor as the sole influence for defense because of three key reasons:

    1.) Pokemon with Weak Armor consistently have a high defense stat
    2.) A high defense stat is needed for a pokemon to utilize weak armor
    3.) It was the first and original ability created for CAP and, therefore, should have the largest influence on its stat spread

    The pokemon I chose were all final evolution or were final evolution at one point (Onix) with Weak Armor and then I averaged them:

    82+125+105+120+105+125+160+140+85= 1047
    1047/9= 116.333... which rounds to 116

    CAP 4 would share this stat with Bronzong, a usually physically bulky pokemon that shares a type with CAP4.

    Special Attack: Many Different Influences
    Show Hide
    I decided to make a limitation on the pokemon that could be added to this average by only allowing them to be in the UU tier or under. Why? One of CAP4's stats had to be weaker than the other and the special attackers in UU are arguably and usually worse than the ones in OU.

    Top 3 Psychics:
    I selected three UU or lower psychic type pokemon with the highest special attack and got Meloetta, Azelf, and Mew/Victini/Slowbro with 128, 125, and 100, respectively.

    Top 3 Bugs:
    I selected three UU or lowerbug type pokemon with the highest special attack and got Yanmega, Accelgor, and Galvantula with 116, 100, and 97, respectively.

    I added Zoroark into the average because Zoroark is the only final evolution Pokemon with Illusion, one of the CAP4's abilities, and has a nice special attack stat of 120. In addition, Zoroark is also in the UU tier.

    Top 2 Weak Armor
    I selected two Pokemon with the highest special attack that had weak armor, one of CAP4's abilities, and were UU or lower; these were Omastar with 115 special attack and Vanilluxe with 110 special attack.

    128+125+100+116+100+97+115+110+120= 1011
    1011/9= 112.333.... which rounds to 112.

    CAP4 would share this special attack stat with Archeops, who is arguably one of the most risky pokemon to play successfully.

    Special Defense: Bug Type Pokemon
    Show Hide
    Since Psychic types had a stat exclusive to themselves, it is only logical and fair to both types and CAP4 to have bug types result in the special defense stat alone. In addition, numerous bug types have bad to mediocre special defense, which is what CAP4 should have.

    To make this special defense mediocre to average, I made the pokemon that were to be averaged have to be final evolution, bug type (obviosly) and have a special defense stat less than or equal to 80. This is done in order to eliminate any extreme outliers, such as shuckle, bug arceus, and ledian.

    48+50+50+50+51+56+60+60+60+60+60+69+70+70+75+75+75+75+79+80+80+80+80+80+80= 1673
    1673/25= 66.92 which rounds to 67.

    I then subtracted 2 in order to attain a slightly frailer stat of 65 and an even BST of 600.

    CAP4 would share its base special defense stat with, most notably, Exeggutor and Girafarig, who are both share a psychic typing with CAP4.

    Speed: OU Bugs and Psychics
    Show Hide
    Bugs and Psychics were selected to be the reason for the speed stat because it represents a "balance" and "harmony" between the types, especially Volcarona is balancing out Reuniclus's low speed and Latios balancing out Forretress's low speed. The balance is again represented in the fact that no type really effects the stats more than the other, with sp.def for bug, HP for psychic, and a shared speed for both. These are also both usually offensive types in OU with some of the most deadly sweepers included in the average. OU was chosen because it is the metagame where CAP4 will eventually be introduced to for play testing.

    1059/12=88.25 which rounds to 88
  2. CiteAndPrune


    Jun 6, 2012
    I still like DarkSlay's spread the most, but if his low HP is a killer, then jas's spread captures most everything I was looking for.

    Also, uxsee.... no matter what you were hoping doing average comparisons that way you did is arbitrary and not helpful. Choosing stat values to meet goals like outspeeding threats or scoring/surving OHKOs/2HKOs is the way to go. While precedent can guide us, we're by no means restricted by it, especially by the example of Zoroark having Illusion when we're trying to make CAP4 recognizably different from it. That's my only complaint, otherwise your spread looks quite good.
  3. jagged_angel


    Aug 29, 2007
    The two stats that I am most interested in are SpA and Speed, and it is around them that I will be basing my voting decision.

    Low SpA will give us more freedom in choosing whether to give CAP4 Calm Mind/Nasty Plot/Quiver Dance/Tail Glow and will benefit No Guard in allowing us more freedom in choosing coverage like Thunder/Blizzard/Focus Blast.

    I am not certain, but I think Weak Armour will be used more if CAP4 has a lower Speed. So at the moment, Mari (103 SpA, 77 Spe) and DarkSlay (105 SpA, 78 Spe) are my top stat spreads. I was initially excited by Deck Knight's 86 SpA but I can't imagine anyone bothering to use Weak Armour with 108 base Speed... Feel free to argue otherwise.
  4. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Hello again everyone. I've updated my spread to the final numbers and added a bunch of text to hopefully back up my reasoning and respond to users like jagged_angel who don't understand the appeal of high Speed. All that's left is calcs, so I'll try and trudge through those before the thread closes. In the meantime use Honko's if you're really interested.

    I originally thought no one would submit a spread below 99 Spe to be perfectly honest; you have to be really cunning to actually nab that Speed boost without getting KO'd and a lot of people submitting slow spreads are assuming that +1 Spe is constant somehow. In order for Weak Armor to be effective, it has to be a useful Poke first, and then use that Speed boost to circumvent the incredibly easy ways of dealing with this particular CAP, notably Scarf Genesect (I cannot stress the Scarf Genesect thing enough), Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, Scarf Infernape, Tornadus-T, etc. Illusion CAP and No Guard CAP will specifically be ruined by these particular offensive threats, and Weak Armor + high Speed fills that gap entirely. I chose a high, manipulative Speed number to give Weak Armor CAP basically infinite freedom when choosing Nature and EVs, as well as forcing the opponent to reconsider obvious responses to offensive threats (the aforementioned Scarfers, in particular). I hope this resonates with at least a few people, because I actually hate the thought of this CAP getting forced out as soon as it nabs a Speed boost because you're not sure if Terrakion is Scarfed or not. I'd rather make CAP the more threatening at +1 precisely because you can never be sure what to use to revenge it, and so it forces the opponent to pursue more creative methods of countering both during the match and during teambuilding. There should be some kind of decent, consistent reward for tossing CAP into attacks on purpose (especially considering its poor defensive typing, hazard/weather weaknesses, VoltTurn weakness, and all the rest we've been reminded of since the typing was chosen) and anything below 99 Spe in this current metagame is basically worthless at +1 without a shitload of scouting and epic prediction.

    EDIT: I also hate the thought of having to pump 252 EVs and a boosting nature into an offensive Pokemon that's slower than 80 base Spe. Yuck what a waste.
  5. Blackhawk11

    Blackhawk11 one on one

    Apr 29, 2009
    My previous post is here.

    My updated stat spread is 95/135/118/120/61/71
    (For ratings, see the previous post)

    This Speed stat makes Weak Armor's +1 boost very desirable, allowing it to outspeed almost every unboosted Pokemon using a +Spe nature and 248 EVS. I can imagine a closer set with both Weak Armor and a Choice Scarf; after the opponent has been weakened, CAP4 comes in already at +1, just waiting to take a physical attack to get to +2, and can finish everything off with powerful STAB Megahorns.

    Which brings me to the Attack (and to a lesser extent, Special Attack). I think these two should be high, but then there should be few boosting moves in the movepool. This would enourage powerful attacks like Megahorn, Focus Blast, and other lower accuracy moves that deal the most possible damage in the shortest amount of time. This obviously creates a niche for No Guard as an ability. It also allows CAP4 to sweep with only the speed boost granted from Weak Armor; CAP4 doesn't need to boost (or even invest in) its Attack in order to do any real damage. Think AgiliGross, except with more powerful attacks and a bit less Speed after boosting.

    The defenses are there to support Weak Armor, but also make staying in on potentially mixed opponents risky. Does that Jirachi have Thunderbolt, or will it only be able to dent me with Fire Punch? Prediction and risk are emphasized. Most spreads have this function, however.

    How does Illusion all play into this? Well, I picture Illusion being a gimmick ability, to be honest. Illusion sets will be few and far between, but the spread does allow Illusion to be used to the full potential. First the attacking stats: Let's say you're running a physically based spread with Megahorn, Zen Headbutt, and Shadow Ball. You disguise yourself as a Gengar. Your opponent sees Gengar, and maybe even your Shadow Ball, and decides to send in Blissey. Little do they know, you have Megahorn waiting for the chance to OHKO, which allows a special sweeper to come in and clean up the rest of the team. Defenses can be abused in a similar manner. Disguise yourself as a Blissey, and no one will dare attack you with Flamethrower! Instead they'll switch to a physical tank, allowing you to go about supporting the rest of your team while the opponent discovers that your "Blissey" takes a physical attack extremely well!
  6. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 12, 2009
    My spread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4422577&postcount=12

    Posting to say that I'm going to tweak my stats a little bit. My goal was to give CAP4 the physical bulk of Gliscor and the special bulk of Scizor or Drapion. At the moment, the former is accomplished, but the latter isn't quite. So, while also getting rid of the unwanted 580 BST, I'm going to increase my HP value from 75 HP -> 80 HP. This will still make it the third lowest HP value being offered (and potentially the lowest after a few polls), but increases that polarizing physical defense while slightly increasing the overall special defense. Important to note that even with this boost, the special bulk of CAP4 is still under the special bulk of Scizor by around 3-4% of damage.

    I was going to make a long post explaining why lower end speeds are completely viable (in response to Korski), but most of my sentiments were explained via IRC, and so I'll just compress my arguments for the sake of this post:

    • Any Pokemon with a base speed of over 70, at +1, probably out-speeds all of OU without any Choice Scarf, and then anything with Choice Scarf under that said Speed (for example, my spread is at 78 Spe, so that would include things like ScarfTran). I wouldn't call potentially out-Speeding things as fast as Alakazam and Jolteon "useless".
    • Max investment and a plus nature isn't even needed at +1 for some of the lower spreads, unless you are terrified of Jolteon. Even so, max Speed+ isn't uncommon in OU for some of the lower-Speed Pokemon. Heatran (77), Gyarados (81), Magnezone (60) and Mamoswine (80) are some examples of slower Pokemon that use a positive nature and can invest heavily in Spe without necessarily using a Choice Scarf.
    • There are more ways than just out-Speeding the opposing Pokemon to prevent a counter. Take Genesect, for example. True, Genesect can switch in and OHKO, whether on a predicted resist or as a revenge hit. However, going by CAP criteria, that's not enough for it to be a counter. With certain Attack and specific STAB moves (without poll jumping), it's possible to 3HKO Genesect with a STAB move without Stealth Rock. There are other potential factors too, like coverage moves and the like. As of right now, in fact, of the six pillars that define a counter, Genesect meets one. If it stops a CAP4 sweep? Well, that's the risk associated with choosing Weak Armor as the ability. We want to make the ability viable and useful, but not flawless (plus, there's potential for more than one boost too!). Low Speed enables this.
    There's some arguments against high Speeds as well, but I'll leave that to the polls and the voters. Just some clarifications.
  7. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

    Apr 12, 2012
    Final Submission

    Stat Spread Submission
    HP: 89
    Att: 130
    Def: 115
    Sp Att: 101
    Sp Def: 69
    Speed: 81
    BST: 585

    My goal with this submission was to try to achieve some sort of triality between the three abilities, keeping all 3 viable options, with some extra emphasis on weak armour since it is the primary ability and the one that is most dependent upon the stat spread.

    Key Stats with reasoning:

    Show Hide
    This stat, along with sp att, were the two most heavily influenced by the No Guard ability. No Guard is of course extremely risky on cap4 since fire blasts and stone edges always hit so I thought some sort of balance was needed. With this huge attack stat, which is pretty common among bug type pokemon, cap4 becomes an offensive threat across all 3 abilities. The fact that megahorn and zen headbutt are two of its best attacks but have lower accuracy was the main influence on having a physical focus on the offensive side.

    Special Attack-
    Show Hide
    Here is where No Guard gets tricky. There are many powerful special attacks such as fire blast, thunder, blizzard, etc., with low accuracy that would become perfect accuracy moves under No Guard. I think its important that the special attack stat does not go too high or we could run into something like a Genesect with more powerful special attack options. Not saying that Genesect is overpowered or anything, just that having very strong special attack with a great special attacking move pool is not something that is risky, or goes along with the concept. The special attack stat should be high enough to add some useful super effective coverage on the physical set but it shouldn't be so high that we can spam thunders and fire blasts and hurricanes without worrying about missing and basically destroying everything but the pink blobs.

    With a special attack stat of 101 can use some coverage moves usefully but not with too much power. For example..
    Thunder: Neutral nature with no special attack vs. max hp politoed- 45-53%
    Positive nature max special attack- 63-74%
    Focus Blast: Neutral nature no sp att. vs. sp def ttar in sand- 42-50%
    positive nature max sp att.- 58-69%

    These are pretty limited examples but they do give a good idea of how cap4 could use its special attack effectively on all of its sets, without being overpowered. With a physical set special attacks can do good damage even without investment and on the No Guard set the more powerful options always hit making them more usable, but they aren't so strong that they can obliterate walls or anything.

    Show Hide
    I think this is the most important stat as far as cap4 goes. We need a perfect balance between something that can take advantage of the speed boosts, but not so fast as to take away risk, and it must have enough speed to be able to work without them when illusion or no guard is being used. I think 81 is a great option for a few reasons. First of all it is just above the speed tier of 80 so it can troll a few pokes in ou such as dragonite, mamoswine and venusaur out of the sun. Then, once the boost comes into play, cap4 will outspeed everything in the ou metagame without a choice scarf. however, you'll run into very few teams without some sort of choice scarf user so cap4 is far from being able to outspeed everything and we also can't forget about priority users (these will be discussed in the defense section more). After two boosts though cap4 out speeds scarf users up to base 124, meaning everything in ou including all types of venusaur in the sun, unless someone ran a scarfed jolteon. This is an amazing reward for taking two physical hits so lets see how possible that is, and how susceptible cap4 would be to priority.

    Show Hide
    Okay, this is the last stat i'll have an analysis on, the hp and special defense are just to get a desired pt of excellent and st of average. Here obviously i was aiming for a defense stat that allowed cap4 to take a hit to get the weak armor boost. I'll include some key calks for that and some priority calcs as well. all will have cap4 running a neutral def nature with max hp

    choice scarf terrakion stone edge- 76-90%
    choice band azumarill aqua jet in rain- 62-73% chance of ohko after weak armor drop
    out of rain- 41-49% 2hko after weak armor drop
    choice band scizor bullet punch- 37-44% before drop 56-66% after drop likely 2hko
    choice band scizor u-turn 112-131%
    choice scarf genesect u-turn 35-42%
    choice band scizor pursuit 67-79%
    sp def ttar pursuit 52-61%

    Okay, so most of these calcs are on key super effective attacks like u turn, stone edge, and pursuit with the others being the strongest priority attacks in ou. even with max hp cap4 has to be weary of these attacks and doesn't want to switch into any of them. however, this is the negative end of the spectrum. cap4 can take two of any physical hit that does less than 40% max damage if at 100%. Therefore cap4 has a really good chance of getting its first boost from weak armour. however the second will be very hard to come by and cap4 still has to play very safely if scarfers and priority users are still on the field at that point.
  8. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    OK I think a 24 hour warning is in order

    Please mark your posts with "Final Submission" at the top, otherwise they won't be considered for slating (pretty sure that's the rule, anyway)

    I'm not going to bother posting my WIP slate because it's a mess and I'm still not sure what to cut to get down to the maximum of 7 - and also because I don't want people complaining or, even worse, changing their submissions to try to jump on the slate. I'd like you all to please stick to your guns and what you think is best for the project, not what you think will get your name on-site - those are the sort of submissions I appreciate the most. There are a lot of very similar submissions, however, and I may well be axing a few of them that I feel to be too similar to others' spreads, which I did not actually object to. There are, as I say, a lot of different ways we could go with this.

    Keep on going, and don't forget to add "Final Submission" (seriously, don't forget).
  9. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Excellent, thanks DarkSlay for bringing the Speed debate to the forum. I think the community should have a substantial debate on what kind of Speed numbers we want for this CAP, as the discrepancy is quite wide and the particular stat is tantamount to this CAP's success in-battle. You make some good points in defense of your spread and in response to my post; again, If I exaggerated at all it was just for effect (obviously +1 Spe is never going to be worthless). My concern with your post is that your examples of low-Speed Pokes utilizing +1 Spe are ones with remarkable resistances to switch in on (except Mamoswine, and I assume you meant Gyarados instead of Gliscor, but Gliscor still works as an example), which this CAP most certainly does not have, on top of its SR weakness. Weak Armor is going to be a stressful build regardless of Speed because of CAP's typing alone, requiring a good amount of prediction and careful switching to pull off, if you even get more than one shot at it. As far as I see it, the risk of running Weak Armor over Illusion/No Guard is going to be the risk of not getting a chance to utilize the boost, whereas the other Abilities are easier for the user to control; what I have proposed with my spread is a higher reward for the effort it will take to make use of the Ability, which I believe the slower spreads do not offer. That reward is not just beating Scarfers that can threaten our CAP, it's beating the incredibly common Scarfers that threaten CAP (Genesect, Terrakion, Latios, etc., etc.). I also propose a better reward for using CAP over similar offensemons like Gengar, Terrakion, and Latios who may otherwise have overwhelming natural Speed advantages, enough to outclass CAP with their superior switch-in capabilities (even especially on Ground and Fighting moves in the cases of Gengar and Latios).

    Have at it.
  10. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    I have revised and fixed my explanations substantially for my final submission. I agree mostly with Korski in that I would like to have more Speed on CAP 4 than many of the submissions have. As Korski said, one of the biggest trends in successful slow Pokémon without priority in OU is the ability to switch easily into some variety of attacks, maybe multiple times. I don't think that CAP 4 can really have this with its typing and abilities. Our mission is not to maximize how crucial a Weak Armour boost is (which I'm not even convinced a relatively low Speed does). Our goal is to make a cool Pokémon for the purpose of exploring risk/reward situations.
  11. Shrooomtastic


    Oct 8, 2012
    I also changed my post a bit by adding a lot more info and some useful calculations.

    PS. also added "final submission"... was about to forget...
  12. Blackhawk11

    Blackhawk11 one on one

    Apr 29, 2009
    Being "slow" doesn't make a Weak Armor boost crucial, it simply makes Weak Armor shine and truly give a reward for taking a hit. Being slow (71 base Speed for my spread) still outspeeds Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Forretress, Chansey/Blissey, Jellicent, Tyranitar, Politoed, and Skarmory, and allows us to put more raw power into both attacking stats and stay within the limits. This will let CAP4 moonlight as a great mixed wallbreaker using either Illusion or No Guard, but still be capable of being a viable, all be it risky, sweeper with Weak Armor.
  13. Pallas Athena

    Pallas Athena

    Aug 9, 2010
    Final submission

    HP: 110
    Attack: 107
    Defense: 95
    S. Attack: 110
    S. Defense: 59
    Speed: 104
    BST: 585

    PT: 178.6476
    ST: 114.8320
    PS: 188.8894
    SS: 198.3765
    BSR: 383.8471

    Alright, I want to outline a few things before I delve into the full explanation. My primary focus on this spread was the speed stat: 104. I believe this is the best possible speed for making Weak Armor, and CaP4 in general viable. 104 speed outspeeds Genesect, the pixis, Hydreigon, and other notable threats. It is undersped by Infernape, Terrakion, and Tornados-T. At 104 speed, CaP4 can outspeed many of the Pokemon it would naturally prey upon, allowing it to do its job. However, it still must have the speed boost from weak armor to bypass its three main speedy checks from the major weathers. Additionally, at +1 it can outspeed Scarf Genesect. I hold that if it cannot do this, then it will be unable to sweep in a BW2 metagame where scarf Genesect alone would reach into the top fifteen OU. Thus, it is naturally fast enough to do what it needs to do. But, only at +1 can it outspeed a few crucial checks that would normally revenge it midsweep. This makes Weak Amour viable, without making the other two abilities useless.

    My second consideration were the offenses. I put 110 Special Attack into it to ensure that 252 Neutral Special Attack with a Life Orb could always OHKO Terrakion. But it is also there to max out the Pokemon's special attack that it can legally have with 104 speed. If this Pokemon can not hit hard enough to score crucial KO's, there will be no use for Weak Armor. At -1 Defense against a Pokemon that has a physical attack, relying on further setup is a huge liability. While 110 without a spammable stab move is still fairly middling for a sweeper, I believe that it must hit hard to make Weak Armor useful. What's the point of outspeeding if you can't KO?

    105 attack was selected next, as it can ensure a 2HKO on standard Chansey after Stealth Rock with no EV's and a Close Combat. While this may seem like an odd calculation, consider that this Pokemon is designed to be counterless. While some people will shout "Psyshock!" a timid CaP4 with a Life Orb and 130 Special Attack fails to earn the 2HKO on standard Chansey. In order to keep the Pokemon counterless, it needs a way to deal with the blobs, so 105 attack was selected. It was later changed to 107 for the purposes of creating an even 585 BST.

    Special Defense was designed to be fairly frail, but capable of taking some neutral hits. 110 HP was selected as a generic high HP number and a place to start from. 59 Special defense ensures that it will always by OHKO'd by Offensive Heatran Flamethrower in the rain after Stealth Rock, which works out to a 100 Base Attack power neutral STAB hit from a base 130 Special Attack offensive build. Realistically, a "specially frail" Pokemon probably shouldn't be able to do this, and this seemed like a good benchmark to start from.

    95 Defense was selected to tank a non-switch Pursuit from Scizor with 4 HP EV's 100% of the time after Stealth Rock. It can take a round of Life Orb recoil and a Pursuit and Stealth Rocks with 252 HP EV's. This prevents LO sets from setting up on Scizor that are locked into Pursuit, or Scizor that mispredict. However, sets without Life Orb can still do this, and particularly bulky sets can still KO Scizor and then possibly another Pokemon. In regards to Weak Armor, CaP4 can tank a Scizor Pursuit as long as it doesn't have Weak Armor and, provided Scizor is indeed CB, proceed to sweep. 95 defense isn't the crux of this set, but it adds an interesting dynamic.


    104 speed is critical for keeping Illusion and No Guard viable while making Weak Armor relevant. Offensive stats allow for max power/key KO's that allow for Weak Armor to sweep and make it "counterless" with the right coverage, and defenses limit what it can tank on the special side and keep a physical bulk that has an interesting dynamic with Scizor.
  14. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Nov 27, 2011
    Final Submission (any submission would be the user's final one because seriously that's an awful move)

    114 HP / 136 Atk / 104 Def / 115 SpA / 49 SpD / 82 Spe

    PT: 199.6976 (Excellent)
    ST: 100.0181 (Above Average)
    PS: 196.7475 (Excellent)
    SS: 169.6289 (Very Good)
    BSR: 374.2514 (Excellent)
    BST: 600

    - High HP – Deliciously so. With Base 114 HP, CAP4 requires only 144 HP EVs to reach 405 health, enough to make 101 Substitutes and survive 5 Stealth Rocks, and leaving room for EVs to go in other places in non-sweeper sets.
    - Discrepancy – Done with flying colors, having one of the highest possible PTs for one of the lowest possible STs.
    - Specialisation – Bulky, mixed, and fast enough. It's capable of doing any of the three without being a failure, the user's risk being that you can't rely on the reward of each being worth CAP4's risk on all at the same time.
    - Speed – Big one right here. Base 82 allows you to outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in the game save Deoxys and Ninjask (therefore all of OU) if you activate Weak Armor. Otherwise, it's fast enough to work well with the other abilities without being too slow (Bisharp's 70, Honchkrow's 71, Dragonite's 80, all things that hold them back) nor too fast (Base 100 outpaces plenty, to ridiculous amounts with Weak Armor that no longer really benefit it).
    - Aesthetics – BST 600 is works fine, as we can pretend this thing is an event Legendary if we just make sure it doesn't have a pre-evolution. A lot of those art designs look legendary anyway, and it'd be nice to say that we made a Legendary CAP.

    Physical Tankiness
    Show Hide
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
    374 ~ 444, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
    252 ~ 296, guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
    55 ~ 66, completely healed off by 2-3 turns of Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Terrakion Close Combat vs. Weak Armor-activated 0 Def Negative-nature CAP4:
    76 ~ 90, <25% of the frailest set possible
    's HP

    114 HP
    and 104 Defense gives CAP4 the right distribution in dealing with "risk in bulk". You're OKHO'd if you take risk and lose, and given a great deal of momentum if your risk succeeds and rewards you. 114 HP means you only need 114 HP EVs to reach the magic 405 health, effectively giving you 394 EVs to fit into whichever set you desire. This works wonders with Weak Armor and Illusion, the former setting you up for a late-game sweep, the latter giving you early-game momentum. It's the right amount of bulk to give to something as much of a High-risk, High-reward Physical Tanky CAP such as this. Any more or less will deteriorate from the concept.

    Show Hide
    82 Speed is just the right amount to where one would seriously consider using Weak Amor above No Guard in a sweeper's set. With maximum speed EVs, positive nature, and Weak Armor's boost, you outspeed anything not named Deoxys or a Speed Boost holder, uninvested neutral natured base 125 Pokemon, +1 Gyarados and Necturna, and by extension, +1 anything else Base 81 or lower, and speed tie with Acrobatics Gliscor (additionally outspeeding any neutral natured base 95 with maximum speed EVs). In otherwords, it's just the right amount to break a number of speed tiers without making Weak Armor unnecessary to use. If one takes two hits on Weak Armor, CAP4 can outspeed Deoxys-S and +2 maximum speed Gyarados. Deoxys-S. Any more speed is unnecessary if one can literally achieve that speed from switching in and taking a hit.

    Now, I'm aware this has gone on a lot about Weak Armor, so let's delve into what CAP4 is capable of without it. 82 Base Speed is possibly the most important stat in all of this project because of how much it affects. Base 100 speed is considered the "average" in the group of Pokemon we classify as "fast", meaning that it is understood as it is that this base speed is below average. However, it is still fast enough to make use of sets involving wall breaking, set-up sweeping, support, and other roles between. CAP4 already outspeeds 25 out of the 54 OU Pokemon (as well as 6 of the 14 CAPs) on investments and nature alone. This means that sweeper sets with Choice Scarf and No Guard are actually viable in addition to support sets, giving us lean-way to actually experiment with Illusion and No Guard without it being outclassed by other members of OU.

    Special Tankiness
    Show Hide
    49 Special Defense is both a work of additional risk for CAP4, meeting the mandatory low ST spread. Even maximum investments and positive nature (which, honestly, nobody will ever do), CAP4 will always be OHKO'd by Fire Blast and Hurricane, and Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard. This helps to further increase the risk in the decision making process of choosing CAP4's ability, preventing what we can from turning any of our abilities into the ability of choice. Fortunately, because of how it will be more dangerous to exploit the benefits of No Guard, this will give us more freedom in what we give CAP4 in regards to its movepool.

    Show Hide
    Lastly, 136 Attack and 115 Special Attack brings out the mixed stats we are looking for, favoring physical offense a little more. I'm pretty sure it's self-explanatory, but if not, the offenses are high enough to where one can make good use of Life Orb or Choice items, but low enough to where boosting sets can honestly be considered using despite CAP4's defensive and speed-marked risks. Here are some calculations to show you what a mixed high-risk, high-reward Pokemon is capable of--No, not Archeops, better.

    252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Impish Ferrothorn:
    172 ~ 204, guaranteed 2HKO without Leech Seed in effect on switch-in

    252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Bold Chansey:
    255 ~ 301, 3HKO factoring in leftovers
    +2 252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Bold Chansey:
    765 ~ 900, guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Rotom-W:
    273 ~ 322, chance for a OHKO, guaranteed without any HP EVs
    252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 Bug Buzz vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Jirachi:
    177 ~ 208, chance for 2HKO without Leftovers, guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 Bug Buzz vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Tyranitar in Sandstorm:
    386 ~ 456, guaranteed OHKO with any hazard damage

    252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 HP Electric vs. 220 SpD Calm Jellicent:
    132 ~ 156, chance of 3HKO

    Things to note:

    • We outright OHKO-2HKO many of the game's best physical walls using Megahorn
    • CAP4 takes chunks out of some of the game's best special walls using special moves
    • Capacity to hit from either spectrum means these calculations were for okay-case scenario, meaning in practice CAP4 will hit even harder if using the right moves
    • Having used Life Orb means that results can be more effective if risk is rewarded by using Choice Band/Specs and boosting moves

    Bonus little comparison between a couple other similar spreads
    Show Hide

    Highest, Lowest
    SubwayJ.............110 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 110 SpA / 55 SpD / 80 Spe / BST 575
    meteor64............110 HP / 124 Atk / 101 Def / 122 SpA / 61 SpD / 82 Spe / BST 600
    GRs Cousin..........114 HP / 136 Atk / 104 Def / 115 SpA / 49 SpD / 82 Spe / BST 600
  15. Mr Holiday

    Mr Holiday

    May 9, 2012
    Final Submission


    Good luck, everyone.
  16. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Aug 27, 2008
    Final Submission: 130 HP / 108 Atk / 85 Def / 100 SpA / 45 SpD / 102 Spe (BST 570)
    PT: 181.1885 (Excellent)
    ST: 102.6204 (Above Average)
    PS: 190.3407 (Excellent)
    SS: 178.4008 (Excellent)
    BSR: 365.3836 (Excellent)

    In the end, none of the calcs I did gave me a good reason to change my SpAtk. I put it at a nice round 100 since that was the rough area I wanted it to be in, and there it stayed. To move my BST to a multiple of 5, I added two points to Defence (making it a multiple of 5) and one to Attack (since it already wasn't; this way only two stats aren't).

    Sadly I didn't get to making a good list of calcs, but here are some general things:
    - 102 Speed is still well in the range of benefiting from a Weak Armor speed boost. Scarf Terrakion still outspeeds even with the boost, but any Terrakion outspeeds without it, as do many other things that can rip apart CAP4. If you want to sweep with this thing (and reasonably if you don't you probably aren't using Weak Armor over No Guard / Illusion) you appreciate the speed boost.
    - Illusion and No Guard, to me, both seem to be dependant much more on movepool than stats in terms of effectiveness. That said, in terms of the "risky" side of No Guard, CB Terrakion's Stone Edge is a guaranteed OHKO with rocks even at 252 / 252+.
    - While, as mentioned in my previous post, physical attacking CAP4 can OHKO Terrakion without rocks with LO and a neutral nature, special CAP4 can't. It's a small thing, and Modest or Specs (or just having rocks) lets you do it, but it is a somewhat relevant advantage of physical over special. I'd have liked to make physical comparatively higher, but Attack's only a few points off the highest it can go with 102 Speed and I don't feel like lowering SpAtk by a significant amount would be good for us. (Mine is already lower than most submissions after all.)
  17. Admiral_Stalfos19


    Mar 25, 2008


    PT: 190.5004 (Excellent)
    ST: 101.8349 (Above Average)
    PS: 162.8441 (Very Good)
    SS: 154.6689 (Very Good)

    Final Rating: 337.4199 (Very Good)

    Justifications are here
  18. TordenOfItami


    Jul 27, 2012
    HP: 105
    ATK: 85
    DEF: 155
    SpA: 115
    SpD: 95
    Speed: 90

    The speed is low enough for weak armor to make sense, but high enough for it to cope if they decide on no guard instead
  19. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    Well... I honestly just don't have time to put everything in I'd like to. My spread is quite similar to several others though, so I don't feel too bad about where we may be headed. I guess the main reason to slate mine over someone else's similar is that mine ISN'T a 600 BST behemoth, but if that's what we end up with, ok. Other than that, I really can't justify why my spread is better than cape's for example in any obvious way.

    570 is the highest we've ever done. It's higher than any non legendary, non pseudo-legendary Pokemon in the game. It's the highest I realistically would prefer for flavor, but is also close to the lowest I think can work within the limits we provided ourselves. So... yeah? Slate/Vote for 570 maybe?

    I just don't have time to provide targeted calcs to differentiate mine from the similar ones that sit at higher BSTs and explain why lower is better. Other than maybe it's riskier?
  20. DEMo_Gorgon47


    Mar 27, 2011

    BST: 566
    *Optional change, turning 51SpD to 30SpD*

    PT: 198.9852 - Excellent
    ST: 100.2494 - Above Average (With Change, around 68)

    First off, sorry about the blanks in PS and SS, I really tried to calculate them but I couldnt figure out how (my main issue was the speed factor). If someone wouldnt mind calculating those, it would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, guess its time to start explaining. My goal overall was to not overkill the stats, but still make this risky poke usable and rewarding when played right.

    First off is HP. Well we all wanted this thing to have some bulk, and while originally I went with 110, I had to do some minor tweaking and it resulted in 109. Basically it gives CAP4 plenty of cusion to take a hit.

    Next is Attack, and this pokes attack rivals that of Terrakion. As we all know, an attack stat this high will hit like a truck, which does this Poke well as its STABs are rather lackluster, meaning in needs all the power it can get.

    Defense was also geared to be high. Originally placed at 110, I tweaked it down to 107 because its PT was too high. This stat will allow it to happily take resisted and neutral hits in conjuction with its nice HP stat.

    Despite that nowadays, most of the really threatening Bug and Psychic types are specially orientated, I wanted this one to stand out. So I reduced its special attack to lesser heights than that of its scary bretheren and more on par with the versatile Infernape. This Special Attack stat by todays standards is pretty underwhelming, making it perfect for a coverage move, or a niche set instead of a massive force to fear.

    For me personally, I think this Special Defense stat is far too high. If I had it my way, CAP4 would have a Special defense stat of 30, making its ST around 68 or so. But alas, that was too low, and after major adjusting, I arrived at 51, which is about the lowest I could go to stay within the perameters of this while retaining the integrity of my Stats. This Stat was meant to be reminisant of Blissey, but on the opposite spectrum. I wanted this Poke to completely fold beneath the weight of a SE special hit.

    Lastly is Speed. 65 Speed is perfect for several reasons. 1: It makes Weak Armor extremely viable. 2: It makes a Choice Scarf very Viable 3: It adds risk by being easily outsped and Revenged/KO'd/Forced to Switch. 4: Several key Pokemon outspeed-- such as Heatran, Dragonite, Mollux, Bisharp, Jellicent, etc.

    Unfortunately, I dont have the ability to create Calcs, but since these stat groupings arent to far off from others posted, these stats should allow for about the same surviability/damage rate.
  21. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    OK. The stat spread vault should be fully up to date with everyone's changes. Just make sure you let me know if it's out of date, because I'll be frequently referring to it for comparisons.

    Firstly @ DEMo_Gorgon47, your PS and SS are both illegal and below the required minimum. I'll ask that you change that. You can easily calculate your PS and all other ratings by entering your spread into the Excel calculator in the OP, or if you prefer you can just copy/paste the following formulae into Excel (assuming you keep the Speed stat of 65 constant):

    PS =((Atk*2+36)*((Atk*2+36)*(321/667)+415)/((SpA*2+36)*(1-(I35/667))+415)/1.891436)-4.668834
    SS =((SpA*2+36)*((SpA*2+36)*(321/667)+415)/((SpA*2+36)*(1-(321/667))+415)/1.939729)+3.716211
    Where you replace Atk/SpA with your values, obviously. You will also need to calculate BSR, which is also so low that it is illegal.

    @TordenOfItami, your PT is far too high, your PS, far too low, and consequently, your BSR is through the roof. Your spread is illegal until you fix these issues.


    Also, the following users who submitted stat spreads need to add "final submission" to their posts before the thread closes:



    I'll explain the reasoning behind my slate once I have chosen it. Keep patient - there are only a few hours to go.
  22. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    Yeah, about that. I've been feeling quite ill the past few days and have not been able to put together the explanation and calcs that I have wanted to for my spread. Right now I'm about to head over to the student health center to see if they know what is up with me, and if I get back before the deadline, I will try to add stuff in, but right now, I'm not sure I will be able to. I've marked in as final so you can consider it if you want, but whether or not there will be anything more than just the spread I can't say at this time :( .

    EDIT: Health center was booked with appointments until around when the deadline is, so I'll try and hammer something out before then.

    EDIT 2: Put in some reasoning. Hopefully I actually made some sense.

    Oh, and here's a link, so you don't have to go looking: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4423497&postcount=36
  23. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    Our goal is not to maximize the relative benefit of Weak Armour, either (assuming that a lower Speed does indeed do this, which I'm still not convinced it does), especially if it's potentially at the expense of the absolute benefit of using CAP 4 at all. I agree that I'd like to have a certain specific level of power on CAP 4, but we can't just assume that we can solve the problems we're presented with using MORE POWER or more bulk. I've compared calcs from stronger spreads to calcs from my spread, and I have to say I'm not all that impressed. It would be far more efficient (as far as helping a Weak Armour CAP 4 sweep) to give more Speed so that it can outrun some key Choice Scarf users like Wash Rotom and Therian Landorus. Not only that, but issues specific to not having enough power can also be much more effectively solved using coverage moves.
  24. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    Aaaaand whoops I forgot to close this

    K here's the slate which I'm extremely unhappy with because I was leaving a lot of entries out that I liked so please don't take it personally if you're not there

    Deck Knight
    GRs Cousin
    The only criterion I was adamant on pursuing when building this slate was that the Pokemon should have an adequately high HP stat. That left me with about thirteen entries, which I then narrowed down further by excluding those with what I saw as excessive Speed stats. In all honesty, I went into this thinking that all Speed stats over 100 were too much, but I see that quite a few people wanted something of that nature, and so I chose Deck Knight's as being the most definitive of those remaining and eliminated the rest, so if you support that, you have something to vote for, anyway. After that, I eliminated those with the same or similar Speed stats (in terms of relative tiers) and that brought us down to eight, which was annoying as I have a maximum of seven to work with. Hence I picked two similar spreads and then picked the one of the two that I preferred. I'd be lying if I said I was happy with the slate, but I'm satisfied that these represent a full range of adequate and legitimate choices for the stat spread.

    Poll will be up shortly.
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