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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Oct 24, 2012.

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  1. Devidra

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    I agree with giving it Extremespeed but I disagree with any fire move other than perhaps Overheat, even that's still a little iffy for me though. A powerful fire move that could be spammed to hit its would be counters defeats the purpose of the concept in my opinion. Besides, having a fighting type coverage move in tandem with its STABs seems adequate enough. Speaking of which, are its STAB attacks up for disscusion or is it just a given that Auromoth will have Megahorn?
  2. TheMagicalCake

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    Just because not every move has to be risky doesn't mean we should give it Close Combat. Close combat is one of the most spam able moves in the game and I just don't think it would fit with the idea of CAP4. If you want a move without consequences then use Brick Break. If you want something with more power use Superpower or Hammer Arm and disallow Close Combat.

    I am also strongly against Extremespeed, because priority is one of the safest things in the game. You don't have to worry about other priority or faster pokemon with it. It also clashes with Weak Armor because if something is gonna out speed you you could just use Extremespeed.
  3. jagged_angel

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    Please BMB, please don't allow Close Combat or Superpower, if either is the main Physical Fighting coverage, Weak Armour is getting a huge nerf. The Defence drop from both moves means than in order to cover Steels and the Pink Blobs, a Weak Armour Aurumoth can only get to +1 Speed if it is willing to accept -2 Defence. CC in particular is very spammable on Illusion/No Guard sets so allowing CC as well as Focus Blast (which is a huge boost for No Guard) is tantamount to ensuring Weak Armour will be rarely used.

    I would suggest that a much better option would be Hi Jump Kick - it provides the power of Close Combat (well, slightly more) and usable accuracy, without Defence drops. There's the recoil-risk, which gives No Guard a slight boost, but it doesn't have the negative that Close Combat and Superpower have for Weak Armour. Alternatively, if you are dead-set on allowing Close Combat and Superpower, please allow Hi Jump Kick too so that movepool creators have the freedom to create a movepool that has strong Physical Fighting coverage without nerfing Weak Armour.

    I am also against Extremespeed as it makes Weak Armour even more redundant. Why would you try and get a Weak Armour boost when you have +2 priority?
  4. Nyktos

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    Either Close Combat is spammable, or multiple defence drops spell doom. It can't be both.

    Besides, if non-Weak Armour Aurumoth are spamming Close Combat, that gives Weak Armour Aurumoth a chance to switch in and outspeed.
  5. B.Reinquist

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    If you think Extremespeed shouldn't be allowed because people will spam it... no... they wont at all. Weak Armour would allow it's stronger moves to weaken quickly, then extremespeed. You're still risking a lower defence total, simply having extremespeed doesn't mean it "can't" be revenge killed. Any steel won't be fussed. Weak armour would actually be improved with extremespeed as it would open up the other moves as weakeners.

    I agree priority seems less risky, but honestly, Aurumoth needs some good mixed combinations, u-turn works with stat dropping moves, but that's banned.

    Without these types of coverage moves, mixed sets will be fairly unviable.
  6. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Yeah guys it would really help if you looked at the OP and only discussed the moves that are currently up for discussion, thanks

    It's irritating if people start discussing ExtremeSpeed or whatever it might be when it's not even up for discussion. Or when people bring up moves that are already categorised wherever it might be.

    So I'll ignore the people talking about moves that don't matter yet

    How do you expect a physical sweeper to work without a strong, reliable coverage attack, really? Brick Break is weak as heck and Cross Chop is actually a pretty terrible move if you don't have No Guard (almost as bad as Focus Miss). If you're executing a strategy such as a set-up sweeper with a Bug/Psychic Pokemon, you are going to need a net reward for the effort over the nearest equivalent. More to the point, Close Combat is not "spammable" any more than Megahorn is.

    Aurumoth takes colossal damage even after the first stat drop. Scizor's Bullet Punch has a chance to OHKO after SR if you get a Weak Armour Defence drop. Weak Armour Aurumoth has so many things to worry about that Close Combat's Defence drops are pretty far down on the list - more to the point, I am actually of the opinion that, conversely, they could make Weak Armour more viable, in that with a Speed boost you are far more likely to be able to move before your opponent, so the defensive drops from CC matter less. HJK we can address later, as per the current lists.

    Now, as for the stuff we're supposed to be discussing, I'm going to go with the following:

    Allowed

    Aqua Tail
    Stone Edge
    Rock Slide
    Blizzard
    Ice Beam

    Disallowed

    Draco Meteor
    Dragon Claw
    Dragon Pulse
    Dual Chop
    Outrage

    As far as Aqua Tail is concerned, it's a nice semi-reliable alternative to Close Combat on physical sets, and isn't too powerful. Rock- and Ice-type attacks I have no problem with, and as I believe that we must absolutely have some form of coverage for Dragonite (who is pretty much the only big Dragon threat, though a very big one at that), both get the nod. As for Dragon-type moves... I'm disallowing them on the basis of principle as per the large amount of neutral coverage they have to offer. Honestly they are unlikely to be broken but they have nothing positive to contribute to the movepool, only negative things - see my arguments in Necturna's movepool threads for the way I feel about positive and negative influence.

    Next up:

    Elemental Punches

    Fire Punch
    Ice Punch / (Icicle Crash)
    Thunderpunch

    To be honest I don't think any of these are necessary or even helpful, but if we want extra coverage this is likely where it should be coming from. I guess you could add Icicle Crash here if you really felt like it. I don't particularly like it either, but each to their own.

    The Generic Risky Moves

    Focus Punch
    Pursuit

    Exactly what they say on the tin. Focus Punch for AuruBOAH sets or whatever other idiocies you may come up with, Pursuit to catch that fleeing Celebi and maybe cripple it... if you're lucky.

    The Priority

    Sucker Punch
    ExtremeSpeed

    Priority moves. A very nice way of, in my view, distinguishing Aurumoth's physical sets from its special sets, exchanging coverage for utility, as it were. In all of these cases, running either of these moves means losing valuable coverage on something, or indeed, very valuable power, which could mean the end of its sweep. Which is a very good choice-based Risk dynamic. Now, there are two schools of thought here. Sucker Punch is a classic risky move, and comes a cropper against Substitute and status, both of which Aurumoth will likely hate. It is also resisted by more Pokemon than ExtremeSpeed. On the other hand, ExtremeSpeed is the same power, but very crucially, cannot hit anything for super effective damage - which imo is a plus, even if only really making a difference for stuff like Offensive Celebi. On the other hand, it is a far more reliable sweeping tool, which in some ways makes it a better choice in this case if we are serious about using it.

    The Overkill

    Hi Jump Kick

    Ugh CC is enough really... but I'd like opinions just in case there's somebody out there who adamantly doesn't want it on their movepool, or something like that.

    ------------

    So. Discuss and what not.
  7. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Well okay I'll try to explain why I like Flamethrower on this thing, now that Ice Beam's on the table. I believe both ought to not only be Allowed but also present in the final movepool, so hopefully this post makes sense.

    A lot has been said about the trinity of Electric/Fighting/Water-type coverage moves on 3-attack sets that utilize boosters or other setup moves to sweep. Each of these coverage types plug general holes for our Bug/Psychic STABs, leaving 99% of the metagame exposed to at-least-neutral hits. I think I would have a hard time finding a competitive player who thought that wasn't enough for a "sweeping" Pokemon; and indeed, on 3-attacks sets, it's obvious to see how Electric, Fighting, or Water coverage would outclass both Flamethrower and Ice Beam for that single coverage slot, as the latter two moves actually make the attack set easier to wall than the former three.

    So why bother, then, with even more coverage options? My answer is actually the obvious one: to give it more coverage options. Sorry if that's a disappointing answer, but I'll go ahead and explain myself anyway. My opinion is that Flamethrower and Ice Beam are both niche attacking types here, not standard coverage moves, and are thus only competitively accessible on 4-attacks sets or on sets that drop one of Aurumoth's STABs in exchange for expanded super-effective coverage (in which case you're dealing with a different kind of offensive threat than a routine sweeper). Can we all agree on this? In the case of potential 4-attacks sets (these would most likely include most of the "mixed offense" stuff we've been talking about), general coverage is attainable with only three moves, remember, which leaves the 4th moveslot available for more focused coverage and an advantage over the 3-attacks Aurumoth by having a clearer path through the bulky Dragon OR Steel-types that can survive unboosted neutral attacks (of which there are more than enough in OU), as well as a real deterrent to auto-switching said Dragons or Steels into Aurumoth for the easy revenge kill. In the case of dropping a STAB in exchange for SE coverage, Aurumoth immediately draws direct competition from things like Genesect (who unarguably does Bug Buzz/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower better) and Infernape/Salamence (who unarguably do [killing things] better), and so your player-side risk has nothing to do with move accuracy or defense drops, but instead teambuilding and the realities of the OU metagame. Interestingly enough, sets that run Flamethrower or Ice Beam, besides requiring Fighting/Ground assistance to get past Heatran, are most likely going to end up relying on their Abilities to avoid being outclassed entirely: Weak Armor to nab a late-game sweep vs. weakened teams (without Choice-locking itself like Genesect); Illusion to better fake a disguise or perfectly predict a baited switch; or No Guard to take advantage of high-BP moves like Thunder/Blizzard (regardless of weather) instead of BoltBeam for greater damage output (to make up for its middling Speed). If any of this sounds like it'll break our moth, then by all means argue to Disallow them. I, personally, think that more options = more reward in this case, because even if you can't run all of them at once, you could be running any one (or sometimes two) of them at a time, which may have enough of a psychological effect on the opponent to force switches when Auromoth's Speed and typing make it generally poor at doing so on its own, compared to other OU offensive threats.

    Argh I never have enough time to say all I want but I'll try and post again about:
    • Flamethrower and Fire Blast should be Allowed even though Overheat's already Allowed
    • Close Combat needs to be in the final movepool
    • Pretty much all offensive moves on the table should be Allowed at this point. They will be fazed out by movepool creators for lack of space, guaranteed.
    • Many moves have risk involved. That doesn't mean they are appropriate for this Pokemon. Please stop looking at moves in a vacuum and saying they should be Disallowed because they "aren't risky enough." That literally means nothing.
  8. srk1214

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    While I agree with your idea Korski, you have to consider opportunity cost. Is anyone going to use Overheat when Flamethrower and Fire Blast are options? History says not likely, especially since Specs hit-and-run sets (the only situation in which Overheat is really used) are not likely to be used with just okay speed and a SR weakness. If we are actively trying to enhance risk, which it seems to me we should be, given the concept being about risk... then we should strongly consider restricting the less risky options.

    This is the same reason btw, that I personally believe Superpower and Hammer Arm should be allowed but Close Combat disallowed, though Bug seems unpersuaded. If a less risky option is available, the riskier options will almost never be used. I'm of the opinion the movepool needs to be quite risky. This means much more than offering all risky moves possible. It means in some cases offering ONLY the riskiest options.
  9. Rayquaza_

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    I believe this CAP pokemon has strayed from the initial project.
    To me it seem everything but "risky" to play.
    For example, it can come on Breloom's STABs (and Breloom is everywhere in this meta), potentially gain massive speed boosts thanks to Weak Armor and sweep the opposing team with little effort with its high attacking stats, while having a 4x resist to the most common form of priority and not being weak to any other.
    That's the very definition of low risk, high reward.

    Because of this, it should not have access to any move with 120 BP or higher outside of STABs.
    Focus Blast, Fire Blast and Hurricane are completely out of the question as far as I'm concerned.

    It should achieve perfect coverage in 3 moves as any self-respecting offensive pokemon should have, but not to the point it can outspeed and destroy its potential checks.
  10. jas61292

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    So umm... Everything Korski said, except the exact opposite.

    In all seriousness though, I definitely feel the "well its not the best and won't be standard but only give it more options" approach is the exact opposite of what we want to be doing for this concept. A Pokemon is considered risky not just because it carries risk, but because it also carries reward to balance it out. If a Pokemons risk far outweighs its reward, it is not risky, it is bad. And if the opposite happens, and the reward far outweighs the risk, it is not risky then either. It is just good. The important thing we have to remember is that any buff, no matter how small just makes something better, and flexibility is one of the most powerful things you can have. I mean, look at Volcarona. It is touted as a risky Pokemon because while it can come in a sweep teams with immense power and quickness after a QD, it takes half its health from stealth rocks and has mediocre at best coverage meaning that if anything like Heatran or Blissey can stop its sweep, then it will have almost nothing left to use the rest of the game. But, what if it has 115 attack and close combat. Sure, most of the time its sets would still be special QD sweepers, and most of the time it might not even make a difference, but because that is an option, it just becomes generically better and as such, generally less risky. Options for the sake of options are the opposite of risk, they are pure reward which leads to generic good Pokemon.

    The point is, we have all the coverage we need. Hell, I'd argue that we have more coverage allowed than we should. Adding more on because "why not, it won't break it" is the not how you make a risky Pokemon. Its how you make a really good one. So yeah, I see no reason to allow any more physical coverage than we already have.

    As for the other moves on the table, Focus Punch, Pursuit and Hi Jump Kick am am rather neutral on. The former two seem like they will be mostly useless, and the latter being unneeded but not providing any more coverage, so not really mattering.

    Priority on the other hand I am torn about. Especially with extremespeed I question whether the ability to always go first will make Weak Armor an inferior option on physical sets. However, I'm not really sure if this would be the case or not. Sucker Punch is unreliable enough that I have no problem with allowing it, but I'm not so sure about extremespeed. As before, I think I would say to disallow simply due to it giving more options for no real well defined reason, but it would not be a disaster if it did get it.
  11. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I don't see many reasons to disallow anything else on the list. I like the punches and Icicle Crash from a competitive standpoint, though I don't think they're necessary anymore and thus they will fall under the scrutiny of my flavour reasoning... priority moves are a cool idea, but I'm not sure how useful either of them would be. Pursuit might be a neat idea as well, going along similar lines as Scizor except it might actually use Pursuit more often. Hi Jump Kick is the most questionable in the list, since there are only two Ghost-types in OU and Jellicent isn't really even that common, plus we have No Guard. That said, I don't think that a reliable Fighting-type coverage move is a bad thing at this juncture (at least competitively).

    I think people are kind of exaggerating the utility of ExtremeSpeed...
  12. Nyktos

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    Sucker Punch I am definitely in favour of. It's at least somewhat risky and nicely mind-game-y, and while I don't know how useful it actually is to Aurumoth it's nice to have.

    In principle I feel like reliable priority is un-risky, but I also remember that we decided Aurumoth shouldn't be priority-weak, and as of now it arguably is (Weak Armour sets especially). Giving it reliable priority of its own is one way to allow it to beat other priority-users, assuming it outspeeds them. ExtremeSpeed specifically is the only way to out-priority other ExtremeSpeed users, so I guess I'm in favour of that as well.

    Pursuit I like as well. Without STAB or Technician, it's not going to be doing a ton at 40 BP, so it's mostly useful if you predict a switch, which fits with what we're overall doing. Focus Punch is sort of similar in that sense theoretically, but nobody really naked punches these days, and I'm not sure SubPunching is what we should be doing...not that I expect many people will be doing it even if they can. I guess I'd say I'm mildly against it.

    Elemental punches and Icicle Crash aren't really great, but they're probably comparably useful to Aqua Tail outside of rain as a fourth move on a physical set alongside Bug/Psychic/Fighting. I don't see any harm in them.

    Hi Jump Kick is more or less just worse than Close Combat...I really wouldn't like to see a movepool with HJK but not CC as I feel like CC is closer to what we "should" be doing, so in that sense I guess I'd lean toward not allowing it, but it's not really a big deal.

    Incidentally, if Aqua Tail is allowed is there any particular reason not to allow Waterfall as well? Well, I guess the former has more precedent on non-Water-types...
  13. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
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    I really, really, really dislike the idea of Extremespeed in CAP4's movepool. I sort of get where BMB is coming from about exchanging coverage for utility, but in my opinion it's not a balanced trade off and ES will always become the preferred option over Weak Armour and will damage the concept in general. One must remember that normal's coverage isn't that bad. Sure, it hits nothing super effectively, but it hits everything save for Rock, Ghost and Steel neutrally. The movepool we're developing isn't looking like it'll have coverage issues and this suggests to me that ES would fit into a Aurumoth set with far too little opportunity cost (note that I have considered non attacking and utility moves when forming this opinion). I see very little reason to use Weak Armour if ES is in the movepool and I think that would be a shame.

    I more or less agree with Jas's thoughts on Sucker punch. Being less reliable, wouldn't displace Weak Armour 100% of the time. Not to mention Dark isn't exactly considered the best offensive type. Plus, it's inherently risky to use SP, while the same simply cannot be said for ES.

    So, to summarise: Extremespeed = Please, Please No. Sucker Punch = Yeah, Why Not?

    Edit: We could have some funky generational move/ability legalities that allow Aurumoth to only have Extremespeed if it has Weak Armour as it's ability. That could be interesting...
  14. Nyktos

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    I believe that BMB said move-ability illegalities are a no-no. (How this is meant to work with Psycho Boost as an event move I'm not quite sure.)
  15. JamesSonofBaboonzo

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    The elemental punches are not needed, and have little value. Ice Punch and Thunder Punch don't add anything that isn't already allowed covrage wise specially, but Fire Punch would wind up being the only reliable fire type coverage move allowed, and therefore has some merit. But I see no reason for including it, other than giving more options.

    Hi Jump Kick definitely is "mindgamey" even with No Guard since it still whipes out half your HP when your opponet uses protect/switches to a ghost, but I am against because its base power is higher than that of Superpower and Close Combat, and is still very reliable. I agree that we need more reliable fighting coverage for Weak Armo(u)r and Illusion, Hi Jump Kick is just too powerful and reliable. For that reason, I say we disallow High Jump kick, but allow Jump kick. It is equal in power to Cross Chop/Hammer Arm, and is slightly more reliable than any of the allowed coverage, (Brick Break excepted).

    With priority, I am indifferent, but I wonder why Shadow Sneak was already disallowed. It hits some notable faster threats, (Gengar, Latios, Alakasam, etc.), but is so weak otherwise it has little other use. I'm not advocating for it per say, I just want to know why it was already tossed out.
  16. Nyktos

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    Keep in mind that Latios and Alakazam are hit equally hard by ExtremeSpeed, so Shadow Sneak would be essentially only for Gengar; which is already torn apart by our Psychic STAB and therefore not a problem if we're boosting our Speed or if we correctly predict its switching in. Shadow Sneak is therefore mostly useless and what use it has is as an "oopsie button" if we mispredict -- exactly what we shouldn't be giving Aurumoth.
  17. CiteAndPrune

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    Time for another round of points on the currently discussed moves... and I'm still of the opinion that 'less is more' in our case. Jas explained it well enough though, so I won't reiterate the points.

    On elemental Punches (and Icicle Crash) - I don't feel strongly either way, I'd say allow them, but I expect the final movepolls to skip over them anyhow.

    Focus Punch and Pursuit - risky indeed. Allow them just to see if someone can fit them into the final movepoll meaningfully with the rest of options we gave Aurumon already.

    Priority - allow Sucker Punch, but disallow Extremespeed. I wouldn't mind seeing Quick Attack as Aurumon's 'reliable' priority however, it has the same neutral coverage as Extremespeed, but half the power. What was it earlier that BMB posted? 'Would you use this if it had half the power?' If the point of reliable priority is to decide 'do or die' situations even unboosted Quick Attack might be worth it to save the day... that, or Shadow Sneak, bad as it is, I wouldn't oppose.

    On Hi Jump Kick - disallow, but maybe allow Jump Kick since it's been brought up. HJK would make CC itself redundant, with or without No Guard, since hey 10 more base power. With CC and (No Guard) Focus Blast it really has enough Fighting coverage variety.
  18. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    OK so I got bored

    Allowed

    Focus Punch
    Sucker Punch
    Pursuit
    ExtremeSpeed

    Disallowed

    Fire Punch
    Ice Punch
    Thunderpunch
    Hi Jump Kick
    Icicle Crash

    ----

    In essence I think we have everything we need right now, so I disallowed stuff that wasn't particularly risky, with the exception of ExtremeSpeed, which I think some people may consider useful to get the jump on priority users, but more importantly, gives predominantly physical sets a significant advantage over special sets, which is, in my opinion, something to be encouraged. Everything else is pretty gimmicky but occasionally useful and there's no reason not to include it.

    I'd also kindly like to remind everyone of the following:

    a) Aurumoth is not that strong at the moment, certainly not sufficiently to fulfil the criteria we set out for it
    b) You are perfectly capable of weeding out any moves that you personally don't like from your own movepools
    c) Hell, you won't even have space to fit half of the allowed moves on your movepool anyway.

    So for all the people complaining about limitless diversity or whatever - that really isn't the case. I'd also like to remind everyone of the following - that the way this CAP was structured was such that there should be a large discrepancy between the consequences of its actions, all of which are under the player's control. For a sweeper, this means that it is difficult to set up but, once set up properly, is fairly reliable. This necessitates options that are reliable for sweeping. On the other hand, for a mixed attacker, this means that every move it makes should have a high chance of either dealing huge damage or not dealing much at all. This lends itself towards types of moves such as... well, Bug, Psychic, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Electric, Water, et ceteri.

    @Flamethrower/Fire Blast: I am currently trying to accomodate all points of view, and to my mind, neither of these moves are particularly necessary. As such, I can't see myself including either unless there is proof positive that they do something, in functional terms, that Overheat cannot, such as say being able to 2HKO X important Pokemon under rain, or whatever it might be.

    There have been events in the past with multiple abilities, so there is precedent. If nothing else you could always make it an Egg event where the ability is defined on receipt of the Egg if it makes that much difference. It's not too hard to imagine.

    ---------------------

    So anyway, let's put a 24 hour cap on this thread, for people to suggest anything that hasn't been suggested before or else to, how do you say, complain vociferously about any decision I have made that they didn't like. If there's any more discussion to be had, I'll lift the cap and we can continue.

    EIA EIA ALALA SEPHIMOTH
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Since its primary purpose is damage and Aurumoth has 110 HP, How do people feel about allowing Final Gambit? It's certainly a high risk strategy.
  20. Nyktos

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    I like the idea. It's suitably risky and it's an interesting move that is rarely used but which Aurumoth is a reasonably good user of.
  21. Master of the Six Kings

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    I like it, though i'm a bit weary of giving something with 110 HP and Illusion Final Gambit. Having to play like every Pokemon on your opponent's team can suddenly one shot almost everything on your team with no questions asked seems a bit rediculous. If it were made to be a Dream World only move, being only usable with No Guard, i'd be totally for it. This Pokemon is going to have enough going for it's Scarf Illusion set with its crazy coverage to turn it into a nuke that you won't see coming.

    And Dragon Rush is another move i'd like to see allowed. It's cool with No Guard, and gives a physical set somethign to do against Dragons, but doesn't really break it more than its broken already.
  22. meteor64

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    Considering the current strongest user of Final Gambit is Victini, I'm all for Aurumoth having it.
  23. TheMagicalCake

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    Never allow ExtremeSpeed. ExtremeSpeed probably the safest move in the game. It beats all other priority, It makes Weak Armor redundant, Allows it to kill things that out speed it with ease. Why would you want this on a RISKY pokemon. The only thing it can't beat is steels but CAP4 has CC (which i'm still against) and Overheat. Sure its not STAB but it's still extremely powerful and not at all risky. I like the idea of CAP4 having Sucker Punch because its priority but it's still really risky.

    Also I want to allow Final Gambit because it fits extremely well.
  24. CiteAndPrune

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    Final Gambit sounds like fun, I'd say allow it.

    Also, I know draining moves were disallowed and it's strictly inferior/not a VGM probably, but what about Dream Eater? Should that be also disallowed? Giving Aurumoth a draining move that requires proper setup wouldn't be reliable recovery, but with no other healing options outside Leftovers and Rest (and Leftovers has to compete with a boosting item) it may just work. Of course, this is assuming Aurumoth would have a way of putting targets to sleep, but given No Guard I suppose expecting some kind of no-miss status is not a huge poll jump here, and therefore, Dream Eater wouldn't break it per see.
  25. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Apr 15, 2010
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    I also love the idea of Final Gambit. I was going to bring it up in the next poll because that's where i thought it would belong, but i guess i was wrong about that. More on point, i feel that Final Gambit bottles the risk/reward concept into one move just about as well as any attack can. It, for obvious reasons, Is a swing or a miss attack and using it too early may leave you vulnerable to various threats that you relied on Auramoth to check while using it at the wrong time against the wrong threat could cost you a healthy pokemon.

    MotSK raised some concerns about an Illusion Final Gambit combo. He feared that Final Gambit would become ridiculously easy to abuse with Ilusion because you can essentially lure out the counter to one of your sweepers or whatnot. I see where MOTK is coming from with this, but I kinda feel like the point of illusion is to lure out your opponents counters to your sweepers or walls and eliminate them anyways, so Final Gambit doesn't really add any new niche. It would just augment one of them. actually, when you think about it, it would be smarter to eliminate counters with coverage moves rather than final gambit in the long run, because then the threat is eliminated and you have a functioning Auramoth, so I doubt Final Gambit would be OP.

    So yeah, Final Gambit=Sexy. Add to the movepool please!!!
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