1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 4 Pre-evos - Part 4 - Stat Spread Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop' started by jas61292, Jan 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,006
    Time for some numbers!

    Pre Evolution stat spreads are something I always find fun due to the mixing of flavor, both statistical and precedent based, and our inherent desire to think about theoretical competitive situations. I am not going to encourage people to make stat spreads overly competitive, as these Pokemon are not in fact being made for any specific metagame, taking. As I have said numerous times, our prevos are pure flavor only. So, if you think the stats should be awful, then make a spread that way. The flavor is the most important thing. However, considering theoretical competitive implications canbe fun and informative and may help convince others of the quality of your submissions.

    When making submissions, remember to keep Aurumoth's stats in mind:
    For Little Cup stat junkies:
    Yeah (open)

    For reference, these are the neutral-nature thresholds at which a level 5 Pokemon reaches a higher stat. On the left is the raw stat hit and on the right is the base stat used to achieve that new threshold. Note that for different base stats, the EV requirements to hit higher stat thresholds are different. I don't care if your stat spread makes our prevo terrible or excellent in the Little Cup metagame; just make sure there is some reasoning behind your suggested spreads.

    HP
    17: 5 (Minimum)
    18: 15
    19: 25
    20: 35
    21: 45
    22: 55
    23: 65
    24: 75
    25: 85
    26: 95
    27: 105
    28: 115
    29: 125
    30: 135

    ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE
    7: 5 (Minimum)
    8: 15
    9: 25
    10: 35
    11: 45
    12: 55
    13: 65
    14: 75
    15: 85
    16: 95
    17: 105
    18: 115
    19: 125
    20: 135

    NOTE: These base stats all require 236 EVs to get+3.

    Like I mentioned, consider a base Attack stat of 75. This results in 14 Attack for a level 5 pre-evo, with 236 Atk EVs needed tohit 17. A base Attack stat of 80, on the other hand, still starts at 14 Attack,but requires only 196 Atk EVs to hit 17. If we extend this further, you notice that the base Attack stat of 85 results in a flat 15 Attack. It takes 156 Atk EVs to raise that stat to 17. See how this trend works? Every 5 point increment of a base Stat requires 40 fewer EVs to hit the same effective stat. This is important to keep in mind, because the fewer EVs it takes to hit a desired stat, the more EVs can be invested elsewhere. If you choose weird non-divisible-by-5 base Stat numbers, the rule above still applies, it just isn't going from 236>196>156 anymore, it's somewhere in-between.


    Like previous stages of this project, I am going to ask submitters to submit spreads for both pre-evolution stages. This will help make the family more of a cohesive unit and allows people to base reasoning for one spread off of the other.

    There are all sorts of ways you guys can go with this, so don't be afraid to try something different if you think you can provide adequate reasoning. And if you ever want any help constructing your spread, feel free to come on over to our IRC channel, #cap. There are usually many people there who will be willing to help.

    I am not going to put an exact time limit on this thread at right now, but it would be nice if people can get in their submissions within the next couple of days. I will post a warning before I close this thread though so people know how much time they have left.


    Our Prevos so far:
    Type: Bug/Psychic | Bug/Psychic
    Abilities: Shield Dust/KeenEye/Illusion | Shed Skin/Compoundeyes/Illusion
    Stats: ???
  2. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,406
    Basing this off of other pseudo-legendary progressions. This means I'm going with a 300 BST stage 1 mon, and a 420 BST stage 2 mon. Also that the final digits of each stat stay the same in all 3 stages.

    110/120/99/117/60/94
    ^
    70/90/89/77/50/44
    ^
    50/70/49/57/40/34
  3. Umbreons

    Umbreons

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    Same idea as Srk1214, 300 and 420.

    110/120/99/117/60/94
    ^
    75/90/77/86/40/52
    ^
    50/70/55/64/30/31
  4. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    2,368
    110/120/99/117/60/94 BST: 600 BSR: A Lot
    ^
    73/85/70/75/53/64 BST: 420 BSR: 185.046 (Below Average)
    ^
    60/63/50/60/33/34 BST: 300 BSR: 93.5224 (Bad)

    Pretty straightforward sets, 300 and 420 BSTs of course. The stats are ranked in the same order as Aurumoth's, i.e., Attack>Special Attack>HP>Defense>Speed>Special Defense. The Speed values are 34-64-94 because that's cool in my opinion, and each evolution has three stats that are "nice round numbers" and three stats that end in numbers that are not 5 or 0, just like Aurumoth.
  5. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    302
    Aurumoth's Stats
    110/120/99/117/60/94

    Second Stage's Stats
    80/90/69/87/30/64

    First Stage's Stats
    60/70/49/67/10/44

    Very pseudo-legendary-esque stats, starting with 300 BST, the average for all first stage pseudo-legendaries, and 420 BST, the average of the second stages. It's not very creative in that it goes up by 20 and 30 across the board, but I still think they look nice considering how Aurumoth's stats look...

    While I'm here, I'd like to ask, why don't we save the stat submission process until after we have our artwork? I think our stats will be better flavor-wise if we can get a visual for our prevos first. After all, our visions might differ in that we all have different ideas of what the pre-evolution will look like. Shouldn't we solidify the community's vision of the prevos first before completing step that differs between the individual's vision?
  6. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    565
    Just a note: most people are doing it already, but in-game precedent suggests that stats should differ from multiples of five by the same amount as Aurumoth's do.

    That is to say, HP, Attack, and SpDef should be multiples of 5; SpAtk and Speed should be one less than a multiple of 5; and Defence should be two more than a multiple of five.

    I do agree it may have been better to wait for art here; in particular, the middle evolution's stats should look at lot different if it's a cocoon than if it's just a mini-Aurumoth.
  7. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    302
    There are a few exceptions to that rule of thumb, though. To name one, the Chimchar family has speeds of 61, 81, and 108. Just a mere comfort in case we have an individual or two that want a multiple of 5 in a stat before one of Aurumoth's pesky Def/SpD/Speed stats.

    Jas, is there any chance we could extend this step until after we get art submissions? We're not on a deadline, after all.
  8. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,006
    Since there have been a few comments on it, I want to address why stats are being done now in relation to art. I know people are saying that it might be easier to do stats if art was known, but there is a lot more to it than that.

    Regardless, that is not the reason why we are doing it now. The fact is while we could do stats later taking art into account, that is no different than doing it this way. It would just be reversed, with us voting on art based on the existing stats. One thing depends on the other either way. Stats before art is the way previous pre-evolution projects have been done, most likely in order to mirror the main CAP process. Even if it is all flavor, I personally believe it is good to have this similarity. Arguments could (and have) been made for putting art anywhere from the beginning to the end of the project, but as of right now there is no real official process for prevos. Because of this I feel it is best to stay within the precedend set by all of the projects that have come before this one.

    All that being said, it is important to keep in mind that the stat distributions have a lot more to them than how well the fit with art. Many existing Pokemon have stats you might not expect that fit what you might expect based on their family but not their individual design. Between Aurumoths stats, the stats of existing bug and psychic type families, the stats of pseudolegends, etc. there is plenty of information out there to base your stat spreads on. I would highly reccommend that people take things like these into account more than just to say "it has the same BST as other pseudo-legend prevos". There is a wealth of info out there to make stats from. Don't be afraid to use it and let people know why you made your decisions.
  9. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,158
    My source: veekun (I used to refer to Marriland, but it was too clogged up with a lot of sidebars IMO). I might've overlooked a few things, because I skimmed, not examined, so do point out and correct my mistakes.

    Some research backstory (open)
    First, I started off with pseudo-legedaries (Dragonite, Salamence, Metagross, Grachomp, Hydreigon) and found 2 things - that all lineages have 300 - 420 - 600 BST (so many have noticed too), and that they all increase their stats between evolutions in multiples of 10, not 5 (eg. 58 - 68 - 108 for Garchomp line's HP, but I could not find any with, say, 40 - 55 - 90).

    Secondly, I turned to Bug-types, but found a depressing recurring pattern - for 3-form evolutions, most 2nd stages are as slow as, if not slower than, the 1st stage LCs (damn them all metamorphosis lines). Being pseudo-legendary, Aurumoth could break the mold, but this means Speed stat for my 2nd stage would be severely restricted.

    Lastly, I moved to Psychic-typings. There I based Aurumoth line on the Reuniclus line, where there is a significant pattern - its strongest stat is already very powerful even when unevolved, while its remaining stats gradually fill out to help it achieve full potential. Therefore I decide to focus heavily on its Defense stat, turning it into an angel-spawn (I would've liked to put the adjective "fluffy" there, but I fear it constitutes the PJ word.)

    Unfortunately the 1st criteria (pseudo-legend) limits a lot in terms of competitive play, so I had to make do with what was given. Still, I've manage to give as good a shot as I can (15-minute crash course on BSR is neither fun nor enlightening at all, I can attest to it).

    And thus I present to thee: LC > NFE > AURUMOTH

    60/50/79/57/20/34
    80/80/89/77/40/54
    110/120/99/117/60/94

    Self-justification (open)
    I'm trying turn the prevos into defenders on the physical side, so you'll see that its Defense stats are quite high even when unevolved. Unfortunately with the BST precedent setting the limits, this means competitively, the prevos could not be above-par attackers. Speed stat's progression is most dramatic of all, due to Bug-type precedence.
    Some chock-a-block BSR comparisons (open)
    LC: 101.198
    Gible: 96.8713
    Dratini: 92.4046
    Beldum: 102.587
    Koffing: 120.394
    Mienfoo: 127.782

    NFE: 185.462
    Dragonair: 186.64
    Metang: 197.31
  10. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    565
    Not all pseudo-legend second stages have 420 BST: Pupitar and Gabite have 410 instead.
  11. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    524
    After the current art for Auromoth won the polls, I can never imagine the pre-evos other than larva-pupa-imago. Thus, my stat spread submissions would be based entirely on the flavor and precedent of Pokemon undergoing metamorphosis in evolution. I was rather depressed reading that ZhengTann tried it but found no recurring pattern, but I am adamant and went ahead anyways. Now I have my submission, and here's how I got them:

    Show Hide
    All three-stage evolution of pokemon that undergoes metamorphosis, with their stats, are listed below:

    At first glance there is not much to work with, but there are some points that can be generalized:
    • HP increases as the Pokemon evolves.
    • The second stage Pokemon has the highest defense (except Dustox, higher defense than Cascoon).
    • The second stage pokemon has the lowest speed (except Swadloon, speed tie with Sewaddle)
    Now I'm not the type of person who makes up values at a whim, so I decided to input these stats into a series of mathematical calculations, crude as they are, to come up with my stat spread. These were the steps:
    1. Each base stat was divided by the base stat total, multiplied by 100. This gives the %share of each stat of the BST.
    2. The Pokemon were grouped together according to their evolution stage.
    3. The average %share per stat were calculated for the Stage 1 group. I got 19%-19%-19%-11%-14%-17%.
    4. The average %share per stat were calculated for the Stage 2 group. I got 20%-15%-26%-12%-15%-12%.
    5. The average %share per stat were calculated for the Stage 3 group. I got 15%-17%-15%-16%-18%-19%.
    6. However, the %share of Aurumoth's stats is very different from the average %shares of the Stage 3 Group. Thus, the Stage 1 and 2 %share were adjusted to Aurumoth's %shares and I got the following values:
      • Stage 1: 22%-22%-21%-15%-6%-14%.
      • Stage 2: 23%-17%-28%-16%-8%-8%.
      • Aurumoth: 18%-20%-17%-20%-10%-16%.
    7. Each % share was then multiplied to the BST (300 for Stage 1 pre-evo, 420 for Stage 2 pre-evo, to match the BST of pre-evos of existing pseudo-legendaries) to get the stat spread submission.
    8. Then each stat was tweaked to adhere to the rule of thumb pointed out by Nyktos: "In-game precedent suggests that stats should differ from multiples of five by the same amount as Aurumoth's do."
    9. Note that the % shares were rounded off here. In the calculations I used the complete decimal values.

    And so, here's my final stat spread submission:
    Stage 1 = 70-60-59-47-20-44 (BST=300)
    Stage 2 = 100-70-119-67-30-34 (BST=420)
    Aurumoth = 110-120-99-117-60-94 (BST=600)

    And wow, ain't those beautiful. That Stage 2 looks rather interesting with that nice physical bulk. Give it some Eviolite and it should be able to take some hits. Also, mine's the first submission where the Defense stat is higher in the Stage 2 and decreases after evolution to Aurumoth. This agrees with the flavor of a pupa breaking it's shell to become adult. You see those shell-like scales Aurumoth uses for wings? Well those were Stage 2's cocoon/pod/shell it cover's itself with before, so it makes perfect sense for the defense to drop after evolving.

    format shamelessly stolen from ZhengTann (open)
    LC: 96.482
    Gible: 96.8713
    Dratini: 92.4046
    Beldum: 102.587
    Koffing: 120.394
    Mienfoo: 127.782

    NFE: 204.056
    Dragonair: 186.64
    Metang: 197.31
  12. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,006
    Well, we have gotten a bunch of good submissions at this point, so I am going to put out a 24 Hour Warning. I think we have some nice variety out there already, but if anyone else wants to get in a spread, do it quickly. If you really think you need more time though, please don't hesitate to let me know. We are not in a major rush, so I try and be as flexible as possible.
  13. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,406
    Just to add for the sake of argument that the pupae stages don't have to be slower than larvae stages, look only at LARVitar and PUPitar. Which nicely enough for argument as well are in a Pseudo-Legendary line...

    Larvitar has 41 speed. Pupitar has 51 speed. Speeding up, even while going into a cocoon, is totally a legitimate option.
  14. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,521
    Right, I've been thinking about these since the thread first went up. I've also been working irl and haven't had a lot of time... :P But here we go. I did similar things to Zheng and Zyre by looking at the other 3 stage Pokémon that had similar ish typing. Then I decided to have a look at Salamence a little closer as I like the comparisons in terms of offences (by this measure I also checked out Blaziken due its very good mixed offences). Looking at the bug types I found the same shortfalls as most other people have unfortunately.

    So I started churning about numbers until I found a set I liked that sort of fell in line with some of the ideas I had about the other Pokémon I had looked at. I *hate* the fact that 300/420/600 is a pattern, and I also hate the "random" numbers off 5's or 0's!

    For stage 1:
    50/60/49/67/30/44 - 300

    My thinking was I was trying to keep the stats in-line with Auru, but I liked the idea of being slightly more specially offensive in my first stage.

    60/90/89/87/40/54 - 420

    Only a small increase in speed, but a decent jump in most of the other stats. Again, keeping it in line with Auru in terms of the "funny numbers".

    110/120/99/117/60/94 - 600
    Aurumoth's Stats

    So there we go. Not a lot more to say there.

    Final Submission
    Stage 1 - 50/60/49/67/30/44 - 300
    Stage 2 - 60/90/89/87/40/54 - 420
  15. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,592
    Final Submission

    St. 1:
    45 HP / 60 Atk / 49 Def / 57 SpA / 40 SpD / 49 Spe || BST: 300
    St. 2: 80 HP / 70 Atk / 79 Def / 67 SpA / 80 SpD / 44 Spe || BST: 420
    Auru: 110 HP / 120 Atk / 99 Def / 117 SpA / 60 SpD / 94 Spe || BST: 600

    I used the 300-420-600 progression seeing as it was the most common out of the pseudo-legendaries, and the only ones with the NFE BST of 410 were the Garchomp and Tyranitar lines, neither of which really matched up with Aurumoth well. I based my stat spread mainly off of Salamence's progression, as they are quite similar; both have stellar offenses, good Speed, and pretty good HP. The only part where they really differ is Defense and Special Defense.

    Seeing as most three-evolution Bug-types go through metamorphosis, it only made sense for this line to as well. Working backwards, we see a sharp drop in the offensive stats and Speed, similar to those found in the Salamence line and Bug-type Pokemon. HP takes a hit as well. Taking a leaf from Shelgon, I chose to have one of its defensive stats significantly higher than Aurumoth, except I made it Special Defense because it would be hard to give an NFE a Defense significantly higher than 99. Even though it might not make complete sense for a physical barrier to lead to higher Special Defense, I find it representative of the increased protection the Pokemon has nestled in its cocoon.

    Then, we get to the LC, which is nimbler than its cocoon counterpart; its Speed is slightly higher and its offensive stats are only slightly lower. On the other hand, its HP and defenses are much lower, which makes sense since it doesn't have that protective exterior its evolution has. The relationship between Attack and Special Attack is kept, as is the one between Defense and Special Defense, to a lesser extent.
  16. citro

    citro

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    Final Submission
    Stage One: 50 / 80 / 49 / 57 / 20 / 44 (BST = 300)
    Stage Two: 75 / 100 / 69 / 72 / 40 / 64 (BST = 420)
    Aurumoth: 110 / 120 / 99 / 117 / 60 / 94 (BST = 600)

    The BSTs are the widely accepted pseudo-legendary values. I wanted to take a different approach to the Larva -> Pupa -> Moth stat spread because I don't think it gives a really nice sense of flavor. In my mind the cocoon development is very cliche and Aurumoth as a more ethereal being deserves a less mundane growth stage to bring out its less appreciated Psychic typing. I imagine Aurumoth going on some sort of spiritual journey through its lifespan (this progression was inspired by Kadew's art). The pokemon starts out as a frail little bug, unable to defend itself effectively but with a quick temper and powerful Attack stat. When it evolves, it becomes even more volatile. Its high Attack but low Special Attack and Special Defense show its high physical power but also vulnerability and how it is unable to keep calm. When it finally becomes an Aurumoth, it has become settled and is at peace with itself. This is shown in the fact that its low Special Attack finally develops, as well as it taking blows with a lot more ease.
  17. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,006
    Ok, closing this. There are too many to slate all of them, so I went with those that I felt provided the best reasoning, while also trying to provide a good variety.

    Poll in a minute.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)