CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 13a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Ascalon]

I think Recover should be allowed. Both abilties can be exploited with spamable instant recovery and it works well with the generally bulky nature of this pokemon.

Furthermore, without access to intant recovery, the above average defencive stats alone might not allow for tanking and thus full exploitation of the traits.

I also support the idea of Whirlwind. It seems appropriate to me as an option to deal with stat-uppers which could otherwise eventually overcome its defences.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Light Screen and Reflect for Unallowed. I'm against any screens, even (especially?) Light Screen.

While you did give good reason for the suggestion, I keep on thinking that all this dual screen hate on CAP came from DS Deoxys and how powerful it was. Also how many pokemon actually use that DS strategy within their standard moveset?

Swords Dance/Agility/Nasty Plot/Calm Mind for unallowed. This thing doesn't need to be sweeping. These are unnecessary and make CAP8 a pretty deadly attacker.

I thought CAP8 was going to be a bulky sweeper given how much support for Dragon Dance and such.

(a lot of checks rely on speed to beat this thing).

Dragon Dance for allowed.

This is slightly awkward.

 

[zarator]

I think Recover should be allowed. Both abilties can be exploited with spamable instant recovery and it works well with the generally bulky nature of this pokemon.

Furthermore, without access to intant recovery, the above average defencive stats alone might not allow for tanking and thus full exploitation of the traits.

False. Pokémon like Bronzong and Swampert do function well in a tanking role even without instant recovery. We do not need to make every CAP an immortal wall like Arghonaut.

I also support the idea of Whirlwind. It seems appropriate to me as an option to deal with stat-uppers which could otherwise eventually overcome its defences.

I don't see any problem with this. If Zapdos is not broken with Roar, I can see Whirlwind not overpowering at all.

To all the DS-hating people out there. There's a lot of Pokémon which learn both Reflect and Light Screen out there. A LOT. I really fail to see how CAP8 could be overly broken when Latias, Pyroak, Uxie, Cresselia and friends can do the same thing - in many instances even more efficiently. G_T is right. I think many people still have nightmares of Deoxys-E and hate heartily all Dual Screeners. Is there any real reason why you would use it much more consistently that things like DS Jirachi, Celebi, Pyroak etc.?

 

[Fuzznip]

Allowed:

Roar: So it can spread paralysis everywhere and remove stat-boosters.
Curse: It would be quite easy to stop it from setting up, just like CurseLax. Fidgit can Encore, Azelf can Taunt, etc. The Speed drop leaves it vulnerable to faster threats.
Hail: This is more flavour wise, but it's a cloud, clouds fire out ice balls.
Agility: What's so bad about Agility? It's already fast, and making it faster is just weird unless you like to outspeed Scarf users. It's not that broken.
Baton Pass: It could become a decent Agility Passer.

Just my thoughts.

 

[hydrolphin]

Agility: What's so bad about Agility? It's already fast, and making it faster is just weird unless you like to outspeed Scarf users. It's not that broken.

I wouldn't necessarily call 80 speed fast. Howeverr, with Agility, it is able to outrun a lot of stuff, and have defenses to keep from being revenged.

 

[Cartoons!]

I'm not sold on this thing needing to last forever, given it's great(pending) offensive coverage. Every bulky CAP we've built has had access to at least a semi-practical means of recovery, but none of them have been as capable of doing as much damage off the bat as our dragon can. If there's to be any recovery at all outside of Rest, I'd support Pain Split.

Granted, Blissey and Snorlax may have to think twice about coming in on a weakened dragon, but the advantage is offset by the move's limited use as the battle progresses. Furthermore, it can be upsetting to stall, which is still a prevalent strategy on the server.

 

[zarator]

I'm not sold on this thing needing to last forever, given it's great(pending) offensive coverage. Every bulky CAP we've built has had access to at least a semi-practical means of recovery, but none of them have been as capable of doing as much damage off the bat as our dragon can. If there's to be any recovery at all outside of Rest, I'd support Pain Split.

Granted, Blissey and Snorlax may have to think twice about coming in on a weakened dragon, but the advantage is offset by the move's limited use as the battle progresses. Furthermore, it can be upsetting to stall, which is still a prevalent strategy on the server.

Wow, I completely forgot about Pain Split. I'm gonna support Cartoons onto this point

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Clefable or Wiggytuff? Always thought Clefable was doing okay in UU.

Slowbro. Remember how he was in every team when DP came out, then faded away to nothing?

I'm glad how others are supporting Morning Sun/Moonlight. Though that may get unreliable for the lower Points and unfavorable weather, we can't give instant healing to everybody. And hey, if the sun is out, you'll heal all Hp anyways. Just kill off Tar first.

I support Dragon Dance. We could attempt to raise this things Attack and Speed, possibly trying some mix sets.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

What part of this rule in the OP do you not understand?

All these spammy lists people keep making, is the reason the movepool threads in CAP are such a shithole. You simply cannot reasonably discuss something when someone posts a list of moves. This is not a movepool submission thread, so don't make a movepool submission in the form of a long list of moves -- regardless of how much reasoning you put behind it. The only list in this thread should be in the OP.

Pick out a couple of moves that you feel strongly about, and make a case for or against it. If you really feel strongly about a lot of moves, then pick out the few that you feel MOST strongly about.

When you post a list of moves, no one reads it. It just spams up the thread, and perhaps makes you feel like you are contributing to the conversation. But you're not. You are just making a list that has no discussion value. So, it's stupid to do it.

I wasn't tracking the Attacking moves discussion very closely, and it was a total spam-fest. The mods should have cracked down on it there too. I've just deleted a bunch of lists that have already been posted here. From here on out, those deletions will come accompanied by an infraction.

Now let's please try to get this thread back on track. And would the TL or ATL please put an initial list in the OP? It's kinda the whole reference point for this thread.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

No Baton Pass. Hippowdon defenses would make passing too easy to abuse, whether running away from counters in style, or when starting/continuing a chain.

Whirlwind for allowed. Gives it a chance to annoy counters. Also gives another option for sending off anyone who's setting up themselves.

 

[CyzirVisheen]

Updated the OP with a preliminary list. Discuss those moves and any other moves that you believe should be added.

 

[Ybbob]

I'd like to suggest Cosmic Power for Allowed. It provides increased defensive tanking abilities but doesn't allow the easy invincifiying abuse that Acid Armor/Amnesia avoid and can be used as an option over DD or Calm Mind.

 

[Naxte]

Going to Suggest Transform for Allowed. It's a gimmicky option that's not too reliable and would be taking up a moveslot, so it shouldn't be too broken. It also fits flavor-wise, since CAP8 is a giant thundercloud, which are constantly changing shape. (Although, I suppose I may be a bit biased on this, since I've always liked the thought of something that wasn't Uber (Mew) or couldn't really pull it off well at all (Smeargle, Ditto) actually getting it, and being able to pull it off at least somewhat well as a gimmick-option).

I'm also going to support Pain Split for Allowed, as Cartoons's reasoning seems pretty solid to me.

 

[Ybbob]

But the problem is, Pain Split doesn't provide reliable recovery. Sure, it be a great way to weaken Blissey/Snorlax, but they can just heal back the damage and CAP8's movepool is such that Resttalking isn't a good option since then you're stuck to your STABs. Moonlight/Morning Sun provide reliable but not OP recovery and solidify TTar as a good counter to CAP8.

 

[Ash Borer]

No Baton Pass. Hippowdon defenses would make passing too easy to abuse, whether running away from counters in style, or when starting/continuing a chain.
.

Yeah baton pass is a no go, I'm pretty sure this thing will have curse, dragon dance and other move similar to that, baton pass would be a bit overpowered.

 

[zarator]

But the problem is, Pain Split doesn't provide reliable recovery. Sure, it be a great way to weaken Blissey/Snorlax, but they can just heal back the damage and CAP8's movepool is such that Resttalking isn't a good option since then you're stuck to your STABs. Moonlight/Morning Sun provide reliable but not OP recovery and solidify TTar as a good counter to CAP8.

Not everything we create need a reliable method of healing (again, there's plenty of bulky Pokémon like Rotom, Swampert and Bronzong which fare well even with only Rest available as a healing option)

 

[Kamen Rider]

I would say Moonlight/Morning Sun and Pain Split should both be allowed. This is a pokemon built to come in on repeated switches and since it doesnt have any immunites to let it come in safetly for free, I think it needs of some form of self recovery. I think the ones listed above do the job but give the opponent a chance to play around them.

 

[Naxte]

Yeah, I'm going to move for Baton Pass to be Unallowed. In addition to what this thing can already do, it definitely doesn't need to be passing the boosts it's able to get.

But the problem is, Pain Split doesn't provide reliable recovery. Sure, it be a great way to weaken Blissey/Snorlax, but they can just heal back the damage and CAP8's movepool is such that Resttalking isn't a good option since then you're stuck to your STABs. Moonlight/Morning Sun provide reliable but not OP recovery and solidify TTar as a good counter to CAP8.

Valid points (although RestTalking is hardly a bad option for this thing, as, contrary to what you're making it sound like, this thing has great STAB that offer near-unresisted coverage), and that is something that I disagree with Cartoons on (which I suppose I didn't make clear), so I'm in support of Moonlight/Morning Sun as well. I just feel that Pain Split should be another option open to the movepool creators.

Not everything we create need a reliable method of healing (again, there's plenty of bulky Pokémon like Rotom, Swampert and Bronzong which fare well even with only Rest available as a healing option)

Err... Morning Sun/Moonlight are hardly reliable, with things like Tyranitar and Hippowdown being potential checks for CAP8.

 

[Korski]

I think Cosmic Power should be Controversial, and Calm Mind or any other offensive stat-uppers (besides DD) should be Unallowed. Charge Beam/Cosmic Power/Draco Meteor/ Thunderbolt is a nasty offensive set w/out Argho, Phazer, or a Ground-type around (i.e. late-game), and Calm Mind/Charge Beam/Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt is even scarier (recharging Draco Meteor in two turns while boosting its lesser defenses, or further boosting SpA with Charge Beam if you want to attack). If insta-recovery becomes available, Calm Mind(/Cosmic Power)/Charge Beam/Draco Meteor/*recovery = super tank. The benefit of Cosmic Power is that CAP 8 can't boost up SpA on Ground-types, but I think it should be voted on because it could probably wall those same Grounds out of EQ fairly easily with enough CPs.

 

[tennisace]

I think every 2-boost move should be unallowed, they would make this Pokemon too powerful. These would include: Bulk Up, Curse, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Agility/Rock Polish, Tail Glow/Nasty Plot, Stockpile, Cosmic Power, and Calm Mind.

Reflect should be allowed, all it does is increase it's great defense stat, but still won't allow it to take super-effective hits very well at all. However Light Screen should be at least controversial as it allows it to take special hits too well; we need a way to hit this.

Baton Pass should be controversial, if this gets any boosting moves at all I would move it to unallowed.

Stealth Rock should be allowed, it doesn't break the Pokemon, and all it does is take up a moveslot if you choose to use it. However, it would be a good filler move on a support set.

Slack Off should be allowed, a reliable recovery move will help it tank much better.

 

[Naxte]

Thinking it over, I'm going to agree with tennis and say that Stealth Rock should be Allowed. Yes, a lot of good Pokemon already have it, but really... so what? There are also several good users of things like Gravity; should we also deny those moves because they're common? With near unresisted type coverage with just it's two STAB moves, it can easily fit a support move on there. Stealth Rock is such a move, and it doesn't break CAP8 or anything, so it should be allowed.

Also, remember that just because something here is Allowed, it doesn't mean that it will wind up in the final movepool. Movepool creators are free to exclude it if they want. It isn't broken or anything though, just a very common, good move, so it should be Allowed.

 

[zarator]

I think every 2-boost move should be unallowed, they would make this Pokemon too powerful. These would include: Bulk Up, Curse, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Agility/Rock Polish, Tail Glow/Nasty Plot, Stockpile, Cosmic Power, and Calm Mind.

Reflect should be allowed, all it does is increase it's great defense stat, but still won't allow it to take super-effective hits very well at all. However Light Screen should be at least controversial as it allows it to take special hits too well; we need a way to hit this.

Baton Pass should be controversial, if this gets any boosting moves at all I would move it to unallowed.

Stealth Rock should be allowed, it doesn't break the Pokemon, and all it does is take up a moveslot if you choose to use it. However, it would be a good filler move on a support set.

Slack Off should be allowed, a reliable recovery move will help it tank much better.

I really fail to see how many of the stat-up moves you suggested are more broken than Slack Off. I for one would prefer facing a 60 Atk/80 Spd Dragon Dancer than a 108HP/118Def/70SpD Slack Off Tank. Heck, just look to how Recover is more common on Arghonaut than Bulk Up (which arguably fits Argho more than DD on CAP8) and you actually have some evidence of how strong instant recovery moves like Recover and friends are.

And I also fail to see how DS can break CAP8. Guys, If Dual screening would be as broken as you make it seem, Pokémon like Jirachi and Celebi would never leave home without Reflect and Light Screen. There's a reason why only a handful of Pokémon have Dual Screen as a highly used set (despite both screens being present on a lot of Pokémon)

 

[Umbreon Dan]

As much as I hate to say it, I think Calm Mind needs to be Unallowed.

With Calm Mind, we basically create Suicune 2.0. The difference is that CAP8 has higher HP and Defence, and can hit many common phazers (Arghonaut, Skarmory, Suicune, Hippowdon with Surf, etc.) super-effectively. Only Swampert and Zapdos have a real chance of Roaring, but they aren't exactly my idea of a counter to CAP8.

Also, I agree wth tennisace that there's no reason for Stealth Rock to be Unallowed. Without stat-up moves, Slack Off/Roost should be Allowed as well.

 

[tennisace]

The reason recovery is less broken than stat-up is:

607 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 426 - 504 (101.43% - 120.00%)

That's once DD'd/CB Salamence Outrage vs Max/Max +Nature CAP8

604 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (100 Base Power): 236 - 278 (56.19% - 66.19%)

And that's CB TTar's EQ vs the same.

In the first case, you die no matter what. In the second case, you get stalled out of PP, or die because of a crit. So healing won't do a bit of good no matter what you try to do against the best check and best "counter".

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I think that these moves should be allowed as well:
Light Screen
Reflect
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy
Mirror Coat
Roost/Recover/Slack Off/Milk Drink
Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis
Baton Pass
Agility
Stealth Rock

Reasons for why you think they're allowed would give that reply a purpose. Doug just deleted a bunch of posts with only lists stating where you think the moves stand. Update it.

I say no to Agility only because I think Dragon Dance is enough