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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 11 - Counters Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Plus, Oct 19, 2009.

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  1. Plus

    Plus bus
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    Due to popular demand, I've decided to start this thread up and prolong it. So, I'm expecting quite a good amount of discussion here in CAP! However, that also means that there are more rules to follow!!!! ;^_^ <3


    Typing: Dark/Ground
    Ability: Auto-Magic Coat
    Ability: Guts
    Stat Spread: 133/122/72/71/71/95

    This is a Counters Discussion thread. Hope you all know what a counter is, but talk on checks are indeed welcome too. For the uneducated, here's a quick Plus definition on counter. A pokemon that is able to switch into the common moves of a pokemon and cause a threat instantly. (Ex. Restalk Machamp switching in on Blissey, Magnezone coming in on Skarmory) A check is a pokemon that can come in on some moves, but not all. They can cause a threat, and provides a decent enough coverage on a certain pokemon. (Ex. Scarf Latias can come in on a Salamence EQ/Fire Blast/Roost/DD, but not a Dragon move.) If you know how to build a team, you will realize that you have enough pokemon to check most of the metagame, but to counter most of them is nigh impossible. So, make sure you remember this, and don't make a retarded discussion!!!!


    Rules:

    • Follow my definitions, please! Distinguish a check from a counter. It's really not that hard, but many people tend to mix the two up.

    • Polljumping - keep it to a minimum. We've only got movepool left tbh, and while I'm perfectly fine with people saying "x pokemon would not be a counter if this pokemon got y move", please don't base your whole argument off of it. You're basing your arguments off of the counter itself, not the move.

    • No threadhogging. Usually this gets tougher the longer a thread lasts, so I'm expecting you guys to not uh... hog the thread. This isn't a thread created for 2-4 users to discuss shit, it's for everyone.

    • Name a threat, and move on. I don't want multiple pages of people blabbering the same shit over and over again. Another thing I don't want is "agreeing with user for reasons already stated." Uh thanks? I'm glad you agree with them, but who cares? Promote the discussion. Nobody wants to hear your opinion unless you back it up with FRESH arguments.

    • Naming checks are fine, too. To be honest this isn't really just counters discussion. In a larger view it's really a thread to discuss the problems that may arise for this CAP. We're here to identify them so we can adjust our movepools accordingly. Make sure to limit the discussion to pokemon and one pokemon only, and don't bring up "walled by skarmbliss" shit. Only ONE pokemon.
    Right, have fun.
  2. Objection

    Objection

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    To be honest, I think there should have been a little bit of thought about what would counter/check this as soon as we decided on the typing. Every CAP has an awesomeness limit and if we had thought about counters/checks once we decided what moves our CAP would be weak to, we may not have been tempted to go so close to the awesomeness limit before the movepool stage. Anyway, here are a few counter/check suggestions:

    Suicune - not 2HKO'd by any STAB or super effective move CAP9 may get even after a Guts boost (assuming Guts boost is activated by Toxic/Flame Orb) and has STAB Surfs to hit CAP9 with.

    Hippowdon - also not 2HKO'd by anything CAP9 can hit it with after a Guts boost, but is more of a wall to CAP9 (thanks to Slack Off) than something that can threaten a KO.

    Gyarados/Salamence - these are more like checks if CAP9 gets Stone Edge or ThunderPunch/Ice Punch, but Intimidate will cripple CAP9's offensive powers and CAP9 will struggle to take repeated blows from these pokemon, especially Gyarados.
  3. reyscarface

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    Skarmory seems like it could be the big counter for this thing, resisting dark and being immune to ground, yeah i know, taunt shuts skarm down, but I doubt CAP 9 will like taking repeated brave birds while doing basically nothing to Skarm in return.

    Bulky waters like Swampert, Vaporeon and Suicune also give troubles to CAP 9, since they can switch in with basically no risk, receiving damage, but not enough for even a 3HKO by Adamant CAP 9, and instantly threaten it with STAB Waterfall/Surf respectively, both of which can 2HKO CAP 9.

    Salamence and Gyarados are also pretty good ones, thanks to Intimidate lowering CAP 9's attack, immune to ground and neutral to dark. Gyarados can OHKO with Waterfall, while Salamence can hit it with a strong Draco Meteor/Outrage.

    Machamp can take an unboosted Earthquake, not being a 2HKO, and instantly threaten with a STAB Dynamic Punch, which can OHKO CAP 9.

    Thats off the top of my head, ill post more here when I have more time :p

    Edit: Oh dear! How could I forget Breloom! Easily threatens CAP with BOTH of its STABs and resist CAP's main moves. Im looking to bulky Breloom as possibly the best counter for CAP 9.
  4. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Gyarados is the Pokemon i'm looking at. It's immune to Ground and neutral to dark, though if everyone uses Pursuit as their stab dark move, that won't matter. Intimidate means cap9 shouldn't be doing much. Waterfalls are going to hurt.

    Aside from that, Salamence is probably strong enough to take it down. Gliscor's Taunt might mess it up, but I can't predict how much without knowing its movepool. Celebi is weak to dark, but easily has the defenses to take (non-switching) Pursuits and can dish out the pain with Grass Knot. Bulky Waters in general shouldn't have too hard a time, though base 122 makes for a powerful Earthquake. Flygon hasn't got great defense, but it's immune to Earthquake and can hit + switch out with u-turn.

    edit: breloom resists CAP9's STAB moves and has spore / seed bomb / focus punch
  5. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    The most blatant counters I see to this:

    Gyarados

    Immune to Ground, has Intimidate, Dark STAB is notoriously underpowered. There are many reasons why, outside of getting powerful electric attacks, Gyarados can come in with impunity.

    Bronzong

    Some form of Grass Knot Bronzong could probably do competent damage. Without some form of attack boosting, Bronzong can easily whittle down its HP. Without SpA investment, Standard Bronzong can try to employ Light Screen and/or Rest. It can also set up hazards after Rapid Spin, albeit only SR.

    Celebi

    This is more of a check. Specifically, Offensive Celebi, since it can survive a Crunch and hit back with an insanely powerful Leaf Storm. Celebi can't really switch into Crunch or Payback more than once, so it can be played around, but Celebi can't be totally ignored.

    Hippowdon

    Full stop. Hippowdon can largely stall out Guts Boosted attacks or utilize Curse to bring defense to parity. In any case, it completely walls more defensive sets and can stall out offensive ones.

    Gliscor

    Unless it gets an Ice move, Gliscor is going to cause this a lot of trouble defensively. They share the same speed, so generally if Gliscor is faster it can play a potential Ice Fang vs. EQ game and will probably end up ahead.

    Swampert

    Swampert can deal effectively with defensive sets, or try Curse and recovery to get the advantage over offensive ones. It can strike with STAB SUrfs.

    Suicune

    Suicune generally walls this to hell, and has SE Surf to maim CAP9.
  6. Objection

    Objection

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    You are listing Swampert as a check, right? 252 HP/252 Def Impish/Relaxed Swampert gets 2HKO'd almost all of the time by a Guts boosted Earthquake.
  7. tennisace

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    You're assuming CAP9 will always use Guts, which is blatantly untrue (and if that's the case then why the hell did we go through with AMC). Swampert is a decent check, because after a couple turns of Burn/Poison damage Surf is going to hurt a lot, in addition to the fact that CAP9 would have to be CB with AMC in order to 2HKO.
  8. Apocalypse B-C

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    Arghonaut would appear to be an almost perfect counter to CAP9, but in interest of keeping discussion out of the CAP metagame....

    Past Gyarados and Breloom, Heracross resists both of CAP9's STABs and threatens with both of its own STABs as well - CAP9 won't like taking super-effective Megahorns or Close Combats....for that matter Scizor can check CAP9 to an extent; it resists CAP9's Dark attacks, and a Scarfed variant (not the usual setup, but worth mentioning) outruns CAP9 and hits hard with a SE U-Turn and easily switch out to a pokemon that resists CAP9's attack that turn - at least if the battler could predict the attack right. If Scizor was slower and EQ fell short of a 2HKO (not sure about this, can't calc it or anything), Swarm would activate on the U-Turn on that second turn, pushing the damage done by it dangerously high for CAP9....
  9. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    I see water-types being the main form of countering CAP 9.

    Gyarados is probably going to be the #1 counter to this thing: dropping attack with Intimidate, Taunting, out-speeding after Dragon Dance, and putting the hurt on CAP 9 with Waterfall.

    Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune can all tank its hits, Tentacruel and Starmie should be able to revenge kill (if this thing doesn't get Sucker Punch.)

    Breloom probably won't like switching in, but if he's behind a sub, he's pretty much going to scare the crap out of CAP 9 threatening a super-effective Focus Punch or Seed Bomb.
  10. Purple Wobbuffet

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    Gyarados is CAP9's ultimate counter (unless we give it Thunderbolt, but if we did that, we'd be changing the focus of the project from learning about the OU metagame to creating sweepers that destroy the OU metagame, causing us not to learn anything.) The only other way CAP9 can beat it is we give it a Dark-type move with 120 base power. (Put what was in paretheses above in this space.) Gyarados has its counters, but none of them have a good typing combo with CAP9.
    Gyarados counters:
    Bulky waters: share a Grass weakness
    Celebi: shares a Bug weakness
    Skarmory: doesn't share any weaknesses, but things with strong special attacks super effective on CAP9 does well
    Gengar: same as Skarmory
    Gyarados is, as you can see, CAP9's best counter.
  11. familyguyman

    familyguyman

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    Counter:
    Breloom: Outside of Spore, CAP9 will not be able to switch in easily, if at all. Even with AMC, Spore and Leech Seed will have effect on Breloom and with Guts, Spore might be helpful (RestTalk) but Leech Seed isn't. CAP9 is also weak to both STABs and Breloom resists both STABs.


    Check:
    Infernape: Infernape will enjoy switching in on Pursuit and then going nuts with Close Combat or Grass Knot. The threat of Earthquake can keep Infernape at bay in general but he can keep CAP9 honest with Choice'd Pursuits.
  12. Stormbuster

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    I suppose Kingrda would check Cap 9, but Gyarados is far better.
  13. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Or... y'know, Stone Edge coming off of 122 Base Attack and possible Guts boost. Not that we necessarily need to give this thing Stone Edge.

    Odds are, most bulky waters and bulky grounds (Hippowdon and Gliscor mostly) will do a pretty good job at checking CAP 9. Certain non-EQ weak Steel types (Skarm, Bronzong) might get the job done, but wouldn't necessarily do it as easily as other things depending on what we give this.

    Bulky Fighting types or those that resist CAP 9's STABs could also do a pretty solid job, though, again, might have to tread carefully based on what we end up giving CAP 9. Hera can take an EQ or two, but it doesn't last that long if it starts going up against sturdy hits from Stone Edge or what-have-you.

    Generally, I kind of like this counters list because things that use the secondary aren't very numerous on it. I guess Ground types are generally the exception here because they can pack Stealth Rock. But hey, better than nothing.
  14. Plus

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    Gyarados is going to be a decent check (guys please fucking be careful with the term counter here, it's used way more than it should be in this generation lol), from what I can see. A max attack CAP 9 will do

    230 Atk vs 195 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 102 - 121 (30.82% - 36.56%)

    With Crunch to a regular 252/252 gyarados. Factoring in SR that's a pretty tough hit. If you were to factor in a CB/Guts or a LO, here's what you would get:

    230 Atk vs 195 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 133 - 157 (40.18% - 47.43%) Life orb

    345 Atk vs 195 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 153 - 180 (46.22% - 54.38%) Choice Band

    note that this is factoring in a Jolly nature, in which it would be able to outspeed Gyarados. Should this thing get a Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, etc., Gyarados can potentially fall to this pokemon.

    Here are some calcs using the Bulky Gyarados variant.

    230 Atk vs 219 Def & 370 HP (80 Base Power): 91 - 108 (24.59% - 29.19%)

    345 Atk vs 219 Def & 370 HP (80 Base Power): 135 - 160 (36.49% - 43.24%) Choice Band

    230 Atk vs 219 Def & 370 HP (80 Base Power): 118 - 139 (31.89% - 37.57%) Life Orb

    Again, factoring in Stealth Rock, these are some pretty hefty numbers. Apart from Restalk Impish 252/252 Gyarados which is the safest bet as a "counter" so far as Gyarados goes, DD variants of Gyarados cannot switch into everything this CAP has to offer, making it a check. I do not care if it is outspeed and ohko'd by gyarados after a dd -- that does not make it a counter. Is Lucario a counter to most of the metagame because it can kill a good amount of it after a swords dance? Give me a break.

    EDIT: I'm already seeing people misusing the word counter. Friendly reminder!



    • Follow my definitions, please! Distinguish a check from a counter. It's really not that hard, but many people tend to mix the two up.
  15. familyguyman

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    If it's Choice'd, Infernape can come in after the kill. Not "technically" switching in but it's close enough haha.
  16. Stormbuster

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    Right, forgot about that, and just remembered. I'm not thinking well today.

    Skarmory and others mentioned are exceptional counters, so long as cap 9 doesn't get elemental punches or something else unpredicted.
  17. armogohma

    armogohma

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    Another good thing about breloom: not only does it counter CAP9 well, it also helps stop the secondary in it's own way. It has poison heal, and the toxic orb is handy for stopping trickers, and a grass-type STAB to help against some of the bulky waters CAP9 can't handle. Increasing it's usage is thus somewhat likely to boost CAP9's impact. Sure, it uses spore, but any breloom intended to stop CAP9 will be careful about using it. Leech seed, however...
  18. ReysonTheNoble

    ReysonTheNoble

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    Bulky waters in general counter CAP9, and this has been stated repeatedly so...

    I don't see many counters that haven't been listed, so I'm moving on to checks.
    Any pokemon resistant or immune to Ground, and can outspeed CAP9 checks it, as they can switch in on a predicted EQ and threaten with SE attacks or powerful STAB moves, except Aerodactyl. These are the following:
    Azelf, Celebi*, Flygon, Gengar, Latias, Ninjask, Salamence, Togekiss, Zapdos*.

    *These pokemon have a higher base speed, but generally don't run 252 Speed EVs

    Out of these, Zapdos can check CAP9 with any set, and Ninjask is a surprising addition to the check list. Ninjask is a viable check, because if it switches in safely, it can set up a Sub to scout for Sucker Punch, or just attack with X-Scissor for a hefty amount of damage.

    Aside from these, various Steel types can come in on non-EQ moves and threaten CAP9 if they happen to have a Scarf (Jirachi, Heatran).
  19. zarator

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    To all the people who claim Breloom is a counter to CAP9, the standard 44HP/252 Atk/216 Spd variant is 2HKOed by Choice Band (or Guts boosted) Earthquake. I think that, like Plus said, we should be more wary as far as the "counter" term go and talk more about checks. The same holds true for Suicune (which takes over 40% on average by Choice Band/Guts boosted EQ and has a shot at being 2HKOed with SR and Sandstorm support) and for pretty much every bulky Water out there (keep in mind that Suicune is the most defensive out of them, and I used 252HP/252 Def Bold for the calculation above!).

    The only Pokémon I see which can truly claim the title of "Counter to CAP9" is Skarmory, assuming CAP9 will get nothing more than a generic Crunch/Earthquake/Stone Edge offensive package. However, OU has accustomed us to have "uncounterable" Pokémon fare well in the metagame with just checks to hold them. Keeping in mind the good defensive stats, Guts, SR resistance and yet the weaknesses and the possible passive damage from self-inflicted status... I think we will need playtesting to see how much the absence of true counters influence CAP9 in the "long run" (as much as playtesting can be considered "long run", of course)
  20. Anachronism

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    Heracross,Skarmory, and Brelooom look like pretty good counters looking at only CAP 9's STAB moves... so the question is would we want to give CAP 9 moves (Fire Blast or something) that reduce their effectiveness?

    Those are the only things in OU that resist both STABs...but other things can come in on one of the two moves and threaten a ko before he can ko them back. Scizor can come in on Crunch/Sucker Punch and then Uturn out, as Earthquake would fail to ko. Gliscor can come in on EQ and Uturn also. Once again, do we want to give CAP 9 Fire Blast? What about Ice Punch/Beam?

    Suicune, Vaporeon, Milotic and Swampert could tank a hit and ko back with Surf. Weavile resists Sucker Punch and could outspeed and ko with Ice Punch, but obviously can't come in on EQ.
  21. Zach

    Zach

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    Counters/Checks:

    Cuteloom, which is a bulkier variant of Breloom (172 HP / 204 Def / 132 Spe Adamant) created by user Cuteslims, counters CAP 9 beautifully. It does not fear a 2HKO from an Adamant CAP 9's Choice Band / Guts Earthquake while threatening super effective damage from both of its STABs.

    Gyarados

    Gyarados sports an immunity to Ground-type STABs and will take pittance from physical Dark-type moves after an intimidate. RestTalk Gyarados (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD, Impish) is a particularly good switch in, as he has a tendency to stick around using Rest for recovery.

    Skarmory:

    Resistant or immune to Dark/Ground and huge defense makes Skarm impenetrable to CAP 9. CAP 9's Taunt (all Dark-types in Pokemon have Taunt, so I say it makes sense to give CAP 9 Taunt as well) prevents Recovery and Auto Magic Coat means Skarm won't be able to Spike stack, but repeated Brave Bird ensure CAP 9's demise while it can do nothing in return - except switch out.

    Machamp

    Machamp avoids a 2HKO from unboosted Earthquakes and OHKO's in return with DynamicPunch

    Flygon

    He can come in on Earthquakes repeatedly (especially due to Stealth Rock resistance) and U-turn out for decent damage.

    Scizor

    In the same boat as Flygon, except Scizor wants to switch in to the Dark-type STAB move. His U-turns will hurt much harder, as well.

    Bulky Waters:

    With high defensive stats and super-effective STABs, Vaporeon, Suicune, and Swampert make decent checks to CAP 9.
  22. familyguyman

    familyguyman

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    Hmm, a question about the Auto-Magic Coat. If both Gyarados and CAP9 switch in on the same turn, could Intimidate get bounced back at Gyarados?
  23. reyscarface

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    Apparently it does, so under that circustance, intimidators become a liability as a counter/check.
  24. familyguyman

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    Interesting. This would make Gyarados more "check" than "counter" IMO. Especially if CAP9 gets Stone Edge, which isn't an insane idea given it's a Ground type.


    Other checks could be Specs Celebi or Specs Latias since both can come in on Earthquake and make pain.

    Hariayama or Machamp could also be decent checks, especially the bulky versions or Scarf Champ. CAP9 is tough but won't like facing physically bulky Fighting types IMO.

    Honchkrow also could develop into a threat if CAP9 is without super effective attacks. With the perfect defensive typing to face CAP9 and some vicious power, he could do some damage. Remember, CAP9 enjoys Attack and Speed investments but it can't do that without compromising it's bulk.
  25. FlareBlitz

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    Swampert is not a counter or a check to offensive variants. The standard variant is 2hko'd by Guts-boosted Earthquake, and is incapable of ohkoing with any move even after 3 turns of flame orb damage. It handles bulky variants of CAP9 fine though.

    Suicune does NOT counter offensive variants of CAP9 if sand and SR are up. +1 Earthquake from Adamant CAP9 against Max/Max+ Suicune- 567 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 169 - 199 (41.83% - 49.26%). That's an 82% chance of a 2hko with SR and sandstream (17% without the sand). Meanwhile, a Suicune's surf with no S.atk investment against a CAP with a little investment in defenses doesn't come close to ohkoing (max damage is around 65%).

    The calculations regarding Gyarados have already been posted. It's an iffy check at best, and not at all if we give this thing Stone Edge. Same applies to Salamence.

    I'm finding that very little actually counters this. Some more calcs on common physically defensive Pokemon:

    vs. Gliscor (Analysis Set, Defensive): 567 Atk vs 323 Def & 354 HP (80 Base Power): 151 - 178 (42.66% - 50.28%) (33% chance of 2hko with Sr + Lefties). Gliscor can't do much back. If we give CAP9 taunt, it'll get outsped and Taunted before it can Roost.
    vs. Gliscor (Max/Max+): 567 Atk vs 383 Def & 354 HP (80 Base Power): 127 - 151 (35.88% - 42.66%). Again, Taunt would end it, but it's not 2hko'd. Of course, an Earthquake with no atk investment barely scratches CAP9....

    vs. Bronzong (Analysis set, Standard Wall): 567 Atk vs 288 Def & 338 HP (80 Base Power): 169 - 201 (50.00% - 59.47%). Pretty much always a 2hko.
    vs. Bronzong (Max/Max+): 567 Atk vs 364 Def & 338 HP (80 Base Power): 135 - 159 (39.94% - 47.04%). A 3hko, but Zong can't do a damn thing back except explode.

    vs. Hippo (Analysis set, Physical Wall): 567 Atk vs 341 Def & 420 HP (100 Base Power): 178 - 211 (42.38% - 50.24%). 35% chance of 2hko with rocks down.
    vs. Hippo (Max/Max+): 567 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (100 Base Power): 166 - 196 (39.52% - 46.67%). 3hko, Hippo can't do anything back. We're seeing a trend here!

    General notes:

    I don't think Skarmory would be a counter, or even a check to more defensive variants. One of the requirements is the ability to cause a threat, and Skarmory does not threaten our CAP in any way. Its strongest move (Brave Bird) doesn't faze even semi-bulky variants, and it can't Whirlwind or set up Spikes (well, if it can, we failed at our "stopping secondary" thing). It can't even Roost off the damage if our CAP gets Taunt (which is a very strong probability), and non-Guts variants of CAP9 will be able to beat it with leftovers and the defense drops from Crunch. Skarmory would effectively stall out Guts-offensive variants though (assuming CAP9 doesn't get a coverage move capable of hurting skarm).

    Someone brought up an offensive Celebi set serving as a check. An offensive Celebi actually cannot survive a Guts-boosted Crunch. It is ohko'd 100% of the time. Hell, even Max/Max+ defensive Celebi is ohko'd 100% of the time with rocks. Offensive Celebi sets can barely even afford to switch into Earthquake, as min/min Celebi takes nearly 44%

    So, the offensive set is countered by Skarmory and, assuming CAP9 gets taunted, pretty much nothing else.
    Defensive sets are countered by most bulky waters and defensively bulky pokemon in general, as long as they rely on direct damage to do so. If a a pokemon _needs_ to recover health in order to pose a threat CAP9, it cannot be considered a counter, as it'll just get taunted.

    Oh, and I know I'm relying heavily on the assumption that CAP9 will get Taunt in some of my points above, but I think that's about as valid as assuming that it'll get Earthquake/Crunch. If strongly assuming that it will get taunt constitutes poll jumping and you'd prefer us to work out a counters list assuming it's not going to get Taunt, the counters list will be different (and will include pretty much every defensive wall in OU except the part psychic/ghost ones and the very few ground-weak ones).
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