CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 11 - Counters Discussion

[-Terywj-]

Skarmory is the #1 Pokemon that pops into my head as an immediate check, but not necessarily a counter to CAP9. Completely immune to Ground and resisting Dark speaks for itself. The only issue is if CAP9 will get the elemental punches or not.

Heracross and Breloom are also viable checks, again, because of their typing. They can be considered counters if CAP9 does not possess the elemental punches because of their resistances and STAB supereffective attacks in the form of Megahorn and Seed Bomb respectively.

Bronzong, on the same boat as Skarmory. It qualifies as a check with Levitate and his Steel typing.

These checks and counters seem really dependent on whether or not CAP9 will get Fire Punch or not. That will depend on the artwork decision of course.

-Terywj

 

[FlareBlitz]

Tangrowth and Torterra are UU because they're just not viable walls in the OU metagame. While CAP9 might do to them what Infernape did to Tentacruel back during Obistall days, I still think trying to use them as a wall in OU will yield poor results against any team without a CAP9. This is all theorymon of course, Torterra could indeed be widely successful and become OU after CAP9's introduction, in which case it would be a solid counter.

 

[VKCA]

Skarmory is the #1 Pokemon that pops into my head as an immediate check, but not necessarily a counter to CAP9. Completely immune to Ground and resisting Dark speaks for itself. The only issue is if CAP9 will get the elemental punches or not.

Max atk (jolly nature) cap 9 vs standard skarm with fire punch
27.33% - 32.56%
Cap nine would only be able to beat skarm with fireblast.

 

[felixmartin]

hey, I scratched a pokemon and it looks pretty cool, do you guys want it?

 

[familyguyman]

Max atk (jolly nature) cap 9 vs standard skarm with fire punch
27.33% - 32.56%
Cap nine would only be able to beat skarm with fireblast.

Make it Adamant and add Guts/Choice Band and all of a sudden it's like 45-55% damage which can 2HKO with Rocks up...

 

[Umbreon Dan]

since apparently everyone expects to be using guts and to be burned all the time, i think Protect on any pokemon deserves mention. 12.5 % per turn adds up rather quickly, and a few protects here and there will wear a hole into it quickly enough. for example, if cap9 is in against swampert, it can protect, comfortably take any attack, and then protect again. cap9 has taken 37.5 % from its burn in this time, and if you count life orb and stealth rock, cap9 has taken a whopping 53 % in those three turns. likewise, faster users of Substitute can leave a mark. they lose 25 % per turn themselves, but unlike with protect, cap9 will be forced to take recoil damage.

a note about breloom and heracross is that they both get Bulk Up and can completely set up on any variant of cap9.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Just a note on Skarmory. Ok, it walls CAP9. But then what? Remember, CAP9 can outspeed Skarmory and Taunt it before it moves, shutting down three of its options immediately and Skarmory can't do much back with Brave Bird. CAP9 is supposed to be stopping the secondary, and considering Skarmory is up there in prime secondary users (entry hazards), calling it a counter to CAP9 is stupid.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I actually think Starmie could do quite well against a CAP9 that doesn't have Guts or invest in SDf as long as it doesn't waltz right into a Crunch (even without anything fancy going on, Crunch deals 96.91% - 114.81%, which is enough to guarantee a OHKO with rocks/SS). Not only does it outspeed CAP9 even if it's Modest and CAP9 is Jolly, but a Life Orbed Surf from a full SAt Starmie guarantees a OHKO. Should serve as at least a solid check

 

[Raikaria]

Agreed there... Unless we give CAP9 Sucker Punch, Starmie works as a revenge killer (It can't switch in)

 

[AlphaBravo]

Agreed there... Unless we give CAP9 Sucker Punch, Starmie works as a revenge killer (It can't switch in)

Even with Sucker Punch, most non-choiced starmie have Recover, so Starmie can play the Sucker Punch game.

 

[VKCA]

Just a note on Skarmory. Ok, it walls CAP9. But then what? Remember, CAP9 can outspeed Skarmory and Taunt it before it moves, shutting down three of its options immediately and Skarmory can't do much back with Brave Bird. CAP9 is supposed to be stopping the secondary, and considering Skarmory is up there in prime secondary users (entry hazards), calling it a counter to CAP9 is stupid.

It's a comfortable 3ko, and a 2 ko with burn damage, if Skarmory is switching in on cap9 and he's got guts, Cap9 two ko's skarm like other people mentioned. So it all comes down to whether or not you guts or amc.

 

[Azule]

I dont think Skarm should be a counter, the basic idea requires you to put Taunt on every set, without it, you've failed the concept, Skarmory used it's secondary.

Gyarados and Starmie, and possibly Suicune would all make brilliant counters/revenge killers. Suicune wouldn't be able to phaze or CM, but it would be able to scare CAP9 away with STAB Surfs.

 

[beej]

I can see bulky Fighting-types making good responses to CAP9, particularly Machamp, Hariyama, Breloom and Heracross. In the case of Machamp and Hariyama, they would simply need enough bulk to switch into a Crunch or <coverage move> and threaten to survive an Earthquake and slam CAP9 back with their STABs. Heracross and Breloom actually resist both STABs, however, and have multiple ways to respond as well. I think that there could be an increase in popularity for RestTalk Fighting-types on the CAP server with the introduction of CAP9.

Speaking of Breloom, what about defensive Grass-types other than Celebi? With its Pursuit weakness becoming more pronounced, there will probably be more of a reason to use Tangrowth and Shaymin, who both look to be fine counters to CAP9. Defensive Tangrowth and Shaymin can switch into just about anything CAP9 can throw at them, unless we give it Overheat or something (lol) and threaten to pound back with their STABs.

One thing that's important to remember about Taunt is that, on a Life Orb set, it would be abused very similarly to how many Life Orb Heatrans abuse Taunt: it means that their counters aren't capable of stalling them out by healing. Depending on the moveset that CAP9 is running, this means that it could potentially beat a lot of threats that rely upon heal spamming to beat it, such as Hippowdon, Salamence, Gyarados and Skarmory. However, there aren't three, but four potentially useful attacks that CAP9 needs to be running for the best coverage. It would need to give up one of Crunch, Earthquake, Pursuit, or Stone Edge/Fire Punch/<coverage move> if it wants to abuse Taunt, which means that CAP9 will likely find itself up shit creek without a paddle against at least one of those defensive threats much of the time, or it will lose its excellent ability to eliminate threats like Rotom-a with Pursuit. If CAP9 runs all of these attacks for perfect coverage, it loses its ability to stop Roost/Slack Off/Rest users from nullifying its damage. Combine this with the fact that Dark/Ground has a large number of crippling weaknesses and that both of its abilities are situational and based upon switching into status-spammers and I think we could afford to give CAP9 very good overall coverage and still have plenty of ways to "counter" it.

To sum this up, I think that the general list of "counters" for this Pokemon will probably vary somewhat, depending on what coverage moves it's running and whether or not it chooses to go with Taunt. (sorry if this is kind of jumbled, I had a lot of ideas <_>)

 

[tangramman]

More damage calcs ...

Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Bold 252 HP / 220 Def Support Shaymin:
565 Atk vs 320 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 95 - 112 / 23.51% - 27.72%
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Bold 252 HP / 220 Def Support Shaymin:
565 Atk vs 320 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 153 - 180 / 37.87% - 44.55%
Guts Boosted Fire Punch versus Bold 252 HP / 220 Def Support Shaymin:
565 Atk vs 320 Def & 404 HP (75 Base Power): 192 - 226 / 47.52% - 55.94%
Shaymin's a beast. Seed Flare will OHKO and, based on the fact that Cyzir's submission will likely win, Grass Knot will likely OHKO as well. Shaymin can Protect on the second Crunch or Fire Punch to avoid the very unlikely 2HKO, unless SS messes it up, but I'm not sure.

Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 212 HP / 252 Def Tank Torterra:
565 Atk vs 339 Def & 384 HP (100 Base Power): 90 - 106 / 23.44% - 27.60%
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Impish 212 HP / 252 Def Tank Torterra:
565 Atk vs 339 Def & 384 HP (80 Base Power): 144 - 171 / 37.50% - 44.53%
Guts Boosted Ice Punch versus Impish 212 HP / 252 Def Tank Torterra:
565 Atk vs 339 Def & 384 HP (75 Base Power): 360 - 428 / 93.75% - 111.46%
Falls to an Ice Punch, but bests CAP9 quite easily otherwise.

Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 252 HP / 228 Def Mojonbo Tangrowth:
565 Atk vs 377 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 80 - 95 / 19.80% - 23.51%
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Impish 252 HP / 228 Def Mojonbo Tangrowth:
565 Atk vs 377 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 129 - 153 / 31.93% - 37.87%
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus Impish 252 HP / 228 Def Mojonbo Tangrowth:
565 Atk vs 377 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 107 - 127 / 26.49% - 31.44%
Guts Boosted Fire Punch versus Impish 252 HP / 228 Def Mojonbo Tangrowth:
565 Atk vs 377 Def & 404 HP (75 Base Power): 162 - 192 / 40.10% - 47.52%
Switch in on an EQ and CAP9 either has to Taunt to avoid Seeding or die to Power Whip / Grass Knot.

A lot of this (and I mean A LOT) is just Theorymon; based on how CAP9 is made, specifically to stop hazards and such, using a Guts based Cannon just isn't good use. With a movepool of Crunch / Earthquake / Elemental Punch / Taunt, it will get walled by something, causing it to be worn down by hazards and Orb damage quite easily. Like many Pokemon in OU, there is no one Counter to every set, especially with CAP9's to abuse Taunt with its 95 Base Speed. Defensive sets are much more viable and significantly more useful when it's trying to do its job: Stop The Secondary. I just don't see CAP9 being overwhelmingly difficult to destroy, especially with such Bulky Pokemon on nearly every team (Swampert, Suicune, etc).

 

[Plus]

closing, expect some more cool stuff to pop up