CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll

[Nik S D]

Why is thunderwave immunity important? It hasn't been determined that this is a fast poke yet.

Ground typing offers Sandstorm immunity and stealth rock resist but Magic Guard does the same thing and more.

Thunder Wave hurts all Pokemon, not just those that are fast. The paralysis can cripple your Pokemon at the most drastic moments-in fact, sometimes fat Pokemon are actually better off, because a high speed reduced is still at the very least average, while average to bad speeds reduced become plain horrible.

 

[Objection]

Why is thunderwave immunity important? It hasn't been determined that this is a fast poke yet.

Thunder Wave doesn't just slow pokemon down. It also randomly prevents them from doing anything and it's permanent, so paralysis = incapacitation except in the case of death fodder.

Furthermore, Magic Guard is not going to be used.

We don't know that. In fact, if CAP9 got Dark/Ground typing, I'd support Magic Guard as an ability. That way, the only secondary effects that would affect it (assuming no other abilities) are Taunt, Trick, Encore, sleep, freeze, confusion and flinch.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I'd argue that a sleep immunity may be a bit more important then T-wave immunity. Sleep is a 100% chance not moving over some turns rather then 25% chance.

It should be able to stop the secondary of Breloom who will maim it with grass or fighting attacks (or leech seed lol). Yanmega will destroy it regardless though.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Maybe we should have a vote: which of these definitions means "Stopping the Secondary" to you?

Definitely, until we come to some conclusion on how this is going to go, then the discussion will be more focused and precise.

I think that this should at least be considered in some form. I mean, if immunity is the main concern, we just go with Ground type, give the thing Magic Guard, and that's already about as far as you can go with it. If a substantial number of users currently see this as the direction of the project, I'd like some opportunity to discuss that.

Dark/Posion on the other hand does boast even fewer weakeness and opportunity to come in and stay in even when compared to Dark/Fighting. One nasty Ground weakness, yes, but still fewer. But in this case it clearly lacks offensive threat. And again, it's immunity benifits really are easily matched with Abilities and Rapid Spin.

You have still not provided any insight into how Fighting actively contributes to the concept. Here, you point out that Poison is good for certain reasons, which we knew, then counter that by saying that it lacks offensive coverage compared to Fighting and that its strengths can be replicated through abilities and moves.

We know that Fighting has better offensive coverage than Poison. How does this contribute to "stopping the secondary?" You have given us no new arguments there. Also, we know that combining Levitate or Magic Guard with Rapid Spin can approximate Poison's immunity to poison status and/or ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. My question is why we would want to shackle ourselves to such things at this early point in design when we can get them out of the way with typing. Better offensive coverage is not a compelling reason to do this.

 

[Objection]

I'd argue that a sleep immunity may be a bit more important then T-wave immunity. Sleep is a 100% chance not moving over some turns rather then 25% chance.

Firstly, sleep immunity cannot be gained from typing, only ability. Secondly, sleep is not permanent like paralysis.

Also, I reiterate: we can dedicate our typing and ability to getting as many secondary effect immunities as possible, then give this thing the stats and movepool required to punish the users of secondary effects, thereby fulfilling both definitions of the concept.

 

[Nik S D]

I'd argue that a sleep immunity may be a bit more important then T-wave immunity. Sleep is a 100% chance not moving over some turns rather then 25% chance.

It should be able to stop the secondary of Breloom who will maim it with grass or fighting attacks (or leech seed lol). Yanmega will destroy it regardless though.

Yes, a sleep immunity is important, but I really don't see how that applies to this thread. I don't think there are any types that are sleep-immune, and this definitely doesn't apply to Poison, Ground or Fighting. For an ability discussion, then yes, maybe some sleep-resisting ability.

 

[Raikizen]

We don't know that. In fact, if CAP9 got Dark/Ground typing, I'd support Magic Guard as an ability. That way, the only secondary effects that would affect it (assuming no other abilities) are Taunt, Trick, Encore, sleep, freeze, confusion and flinch.

That is actually a pretty bad example, imo. Why would we even need Ground typing if the Pokemon received Magic Guard? Yes, it would still have it's speed cut in half, but it could not be fully paralyzed. We also wouldn't even need the SR resistance anymore, as with Magic Guard it would negate all secondary entry hazard damage.

 

[Blackhawk11]

That is actually a pretty bad example, imo. Why would we even need Ground typing if the Pokemon received Magic Guard? Yes, it would still have it's speed cut in half, but it could not be fully paralyzed. We also wouldn't even need the SR resistance anymore, as with Magic Guard it would negate all secondary entry hazard damage.

Magic Guard only prevents damaging effects of secondary moves. i.e. Burns don't cause residual damage but do cause an Attack reduction of 50%, Paralysis still reduces Speed by 75% (not half as you said) and it will be fully paralyzed 25% of the time, and Toxic does absolutely nothing except prevent other status.

So basically, Ground typing will still be beneficial in the sense that it prevents Paralysis.

Edit:

It says that while the Pokemon can be paralyzed, and the speed reduction still happens, it cannot be fully paralyzed.

My bad. I guess I should have done some research first. In that case, Ground+Magic Guard is slighltly redundant.

 

[Raikizen]

Magic Guard only prevents damaging effects of secondary moves. i.e. Burns don't cause residual damage but do cause an Attack reduction of 50%, Paralysis still reduces Speed by 75% (not half as you said) and it will be fully paralyzed 25% of the time, and Toxic does absolutely nothing except prevent other status.

EDIT: I was aware that it stopped damage. However, I just consulted the Index page for Magic Guard.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/magic_guard

It says that while the Pokemon can be paralyzed, and the speed reduction still happens, it cannot be fully paralyzed.

 

[Vividsketch]

If Fighting can match Ground and Poison at the advantages granted by immunity (Twave+Sandstorm and Toxic) with a lack of resistances and synergy, then that means that *everyone* would go for it. If you are saying that the resistances help us against a Twave hitting, tell us why it's a nonissue. If you can't, that's one point to Ground. If you can't tell us why Toxic isn't a threat to a pokemon with only 3 weaknesses (not counting moves and abilities), don't say it isn't.

How does Fighting match Poison and Ground at their immunities game? Is it all about resistances? You haven't said much at all about stopping the secondary with Fighting. Please elaborate.

Ok, I will elaborate. I'll break it down into simplier screnareos and try to put each Type on a level playing field to be fair and illuatrate me point.

Say for instance Ground/Poison switchen into Thunder Wave/Toxic (appoprait to the immunity). They switch in, absorb said status, crysis averted, no harm done, concept mission achieved. Agreed? (I'm just making this really plain for the moment)

But say Fighting Type swicthes in to Thunder Wave or Toxic. It would get hit with status. Just as the foe had planned. Fell into trap. Concept mission FAILED! Agreed, right? You'd be happy with that so far, right?

But if Fighting Type had been granted (heaven forbid I should poll jump) a benifitial ability like, Marvel Scale, Quick Feet, Limber/Immunity, Magic Gaurd ect, (dunno, pick one!), it could be said that, yes indeed it has succefully absorbed, or even taken advantage of a secondary effect. Concept success!!

But you're not happy with that are you? You say that not enought to justify my case on it's own. You say that is jumping ahead. This is a TYPE Poll, and abilities are irralivant at this point? Maybe your right. But in picking Type for ANY concept, surely some forsight into other aspects of the proccess have be taken into considaration as well. And I'm not saying you or any body else has lack of forsight or as not considared the rest of the process in your decisions. But that simply we have drawn to different conclusion thus far.

Let's look at it from a different perpective again then. Let's use Ground and Fighting this time.

Ground switches into miss predidcted (common) Ice/Water/Fighting/Grass attack. It's Super Effective!!! Groundmon Faints!!! Fainted Mon = FAIL CONCEPT MISSION, even though it was not to do with Status at all..

Fighing switches into miss predidcted (common) Ice/Water/Fighting/Grass attack. Neutral Damage. Survives. Not Fainted. Chance and potential still exists to fulfill it's Concept Mission, (Rapid spin, Heal Bell, Attack, whatever!!).

Point is, with more latent potential to swich in (and prehaps stay in) it has a greater probability of performing it's task.

I want to also point out that is not simply enough to 'WALL' status or secondary effects. But you have to also be able to take adavatage of the situation you have created by walling/stopping/evading it. Other wise you are just sitting there as set up bait and have achieved nothing. Offense or pressure of som descrition is required from here. The Poison Type has a much harder time doing that than either Fighting or Ground. And Fighting (pair with Dark) quite possible has it up on Ground in this area as well.


Some might STILL say that picking the Fighting type is just playing it safe. That we are not going out on a limb. Not taking enough of a risk. Too directionless. Maybe some of you are right about that again. But I have not yet seen an consentrated discussion about, for instance, which Status (aside from Trick, and maybe Stealth Rock) is more important to be able to cover. Thunder Wave or Toxic/Spikes. Or how to take advantage of it. Wall it? Absorb it? Sleep talk it off? Guts/Quick Feet it?? We haven't!! The process doesn't really allow for it. So how can we be more difinitive then?? Ground Type or Poison Type? Which road do we take?

I pick what is likely to be the more versatile option. I pick FIGHTING.

 

[Plus]

Closing the thread. Ground and Poison will advance to the next round.