I thought part of CAP policy was to keep new move creation and new ability creation to a minimum.
Either way, I still have an argument to support Ground typing over the other two options. See my first post, points #4 and #6.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll
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Either way, I still have an argument to support Ground typing over the other two options. See my first post, points #4 and #6.
I vouch in support of both Poison and Ground. They're two great typing with their own advantages and disadvantages. Look:
Resistances:
Dark/Ground: Dark, Ghost, Poison, Rock
Dark/Poison: Dark, Ghost, Grass, Poison
The same amount, and about the same in usefulness.
Immunities:
Dark/Ground: Psychic, Electric
Dark/Poison: Psychic
Dark/Ground has arguably better immunities, allowing more switch-ins.
Weaknesses:
Dark/Ground: Bug, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Water
Dark/Poison: Ground
As you can see, Dark/Poison is better in terms of weaknesses, having only a 2x Ground weak. Dark/Ground has a whopping 5 weaknesses, all of which usually come together (Ice+Water, Bug+Fighting). Also, all of these are atleast common.
As you can see, they're the same in terms of defensive capabilities, however Dark/Poison is slightly (slightly=more than enough to warrant a notice) better. Now let's look at the offensive capabilities:
Types Hit Supereffective (with STAB):
Dark/Ground: Ghost, Psychic, Electric, Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Dark/Poison: Ghost, Psyhic, Grass
As you can see, Dark/Ground is miles better offensively, but most of the list is extra. Getting Ghost, Psychic and Steel helps the concept immensly (Ghost and Psychic more than Steel). Dark/Poison, albiet weaker offensively in general, hits the right types. Ghost, Psychic and Grass are the common types of common status users (Celebi, Rotom-A, Jirachi etc...).
All in all, both of these combinations have their disadvantages and advantages. It's up to you to choose which one is better.
EDIT: This may be in the wrong thread :S
Resistances:
Dark/Ground: Dark, Ghost, Poison, Rock
Dark/Poison: Dark, Ghost, Grass, Poison
The same amount, and about the same in usefulness.
Immunities:
Dark/Ground: Psychic, Electric
Dark/Poison: Psychic
Dark/Ground has arguably better immunities, allowing more switch-ins.
Weaknesses:
Dark/Ground: Bug, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Water
Dark/Poison: Ground
As you can see, Dark/Poison is better in terms of weaknesses, having only a 2x Ground weak. Dark/Ground has a whopping 5 weaknesses, all of which usually come together (Ice+Water, Bug+Fighting). Also, all of these are atleast common.
As you can see, they're the same in terms of defensive capabilities, however Dark/Poison is slightly (slightly=more than enough to warrant a notice) better. Now let's look at the offensive capabilities:
Types Hit Supereffective (with STAB):
Dark/Ground: Ghost, Psychic, Electric, Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Dark/Poison: Ghost, Psyhic, Grass
As you can see, Dark/Ground is miles better offensively, but most of the list is extra. Getting Ghost, Psychic and Steel helps the concept immensly (Ghost and Psychic more than Steel). Dark/Poison, albiet weaker offensively in general, hits the right types. Ghost, Psychic and Grass are the common types of common status users (Celebi, Rotom-A, Jirachi etc...).
All in all, both of these combinations have their disadvantages and advantages. It's up to you to choose which one is better.
EDIT: This may be in the wrong thread :S
If that is what he meant, then I am in the fault. However, I thought he meant that Poison was inherently a slow typing. I just wanted to restate that we are not completely bound by all the precedents set by Game Freak. While I must admit, a good majority of them should be obeyed (Grass Types getting Fire Punch is a no, etc.), I don't think all of them should be so constricting.
"The only abilities that would give CAP9 a Thunder Wave immunity (if it doesn't become Dark/Ground) have no concept-related use outside of that."
If that wasn't what you meant, my apologies. However, that is how I interpreted it.
I actually agree here. It would do the project better to keep new moves and abilities to the minimum. It is easier to predict how a tried and tested move and/or ability will play in the metagame than to how a completely new one will behave.
And at this point, I honestly believe it is a "Choose your preference" poll. Poison and Ground both have great things going for them. I'm really not opposed to either seeing play. Poison is, of course, my typing of choice. That does not mean I won't fully support Ground if it does win.
We do not create new abilities/moves for 'lols'. If a pokemon needs it to be effective, we have to give it the move. Stratagem's concept would not be fulfilled without PaleoWave, since the only other special rock moves are Power Gem (weak), Ancient Power and HP Rock. Stratagem needed a new move, so we gave it one. Unless this needs a new move/ability (which it shouldn't), we will not give it one.
Grounds won anyway, but i'll just throw Poison another vote.
Poison can remove both Toxic Spikes, absorb toxic, and with an ability, hopefully absorb another status. And SR is annoying for a reasoning, as long as this Pokemon doesnt turn up 4x weak to it, which it wont, I dont really care, tbh. If I dislike Rocks, i'll pack something which can stop it from getting up.
Poison can remove both Toxic Spikes, absorb toxic, and with an ability, hopefully absorb another status. And SR is annoying for a reasoning, as long as this Pokemon doesnt turn up 4x weak to it, which it wont, I dont really care, tbh. If I dislike Rocks, i'll pack something which can stop it from getting up.
I'm aware. I've been around for most of the CAP creations. I didn't say that "New moves are for lols" or that "New moves shouldn't be used." What I meant, if it wasn't clear, was that if a new move or ability isn't needed, then talking about adding one would most likely end up in the category of "lols".
Your last sentence is actually exactly what I meant in my post.
EDIT: Also, if Ground does not hit the 50% lead marker, then a new poll will be made in which Ground and Poison square off. If all the fighting votes somehow made it to poison (that's a stretch, I know), then it would be horrendously close.
I definitely think that the Poison type would be a lot better secondary type compared to Ground in terms of the concept and the current main typing. Poison and Dark compliment each other well, with Dark providing Poison with protection from Psychic attacks (which are common in CAP), and Poison granting Dark neutrality to Fighting moves (always common). However, the Ground type does not do any of these things, even though it grants an immunity to Thunder Wave. I would much prefer having something that can absorb Toxic Spikes than something to absorb paralysis.
I voted Poison, one of the first things we have to understand between ground and poison is what advantages and disadvantages they each bring.
Both ground and poison stop a status move, thunder wave and toxic respectively. (In this respect they are roughly even)
Both ground and poison grant a resist/immunity to an entry hazard, stealth rock and toxic spikes. (In this respect poion is marginally better, [although stealth rock gets more use, more teams are equipped to work around it])
Ground is weak to a common secondary effect users stab attack (Celebi)
Poisons only weakness is ground (and how many ground type secondary effect users do you know?) (in this respect poison is better)
Ground gives a better stab attack but has more weaknesses and worse resistances, poison gives a weaker stab, but has less weaknessess and more useful resistances. Our concept is not a sweeper. I agree that STAB is important, but for our concept poison is much better in this respect.
Now can you see why I voted Poison?
Both ground and poison stop a status move, thunder wave and toxic respectively. (In this respect they are roughly even)
Both ground and poison grant a resist/immunity to an entry hazard, stealth rock and toxic spikes. (In this respect poion is marginally better, [although stealth rock gets more use, more teams are equipped to work around it])
Ground is weak to a common secondary effect users stab attack (Celebi)
Poisons only weakness is ground (and how many ground type secondary effect users do you know?) (in this respect poison is better)
Ground gives a better stab attack but has more weaknesses and worse resistances, poison gives a weaker stab, but has less weaknessess and more useful resistances. Our concept is not a sweeper. I agree that STAB is important, but for our concept poison is much better in this respect.
Now can you see why I voted Poison?
At the time of posting, two more votes are all that would be needed. Still, Poison is not without its merits and is certainly more appropriate for the concept than Fighting or Psychic would be.
What I think will be interesting is if a poll between Ground and Poison is made and that poll gets more voters than this poll. It would be interesting to see which way the abstainers of this poll would vote in the next poll. In this way, Poison might win by a considerable margain.
Contrary to what I said before, I now like Poison best because Poison gives only 1 weakness, true, an EQ weakness, but... Jirachi has one too and people still use him. So what if Poison attacks suck? They can still hit Seeders, and Ground STAB works awesome. VOTE POISON TODAY AND RECEIVE A FREE BROCHURE! (Not Really)
ground and dark=pimpin' immunity to thunderwave
Jirachi is weak to Fire too.
And what do you mean when you say "Ground STAB works awesome" when you're supporting Poison?
Ground is ahead, but Poison may pull up in a possible next poll. Again, this decision was between 3 very difficult choices. :(
Voted Poison
I think that poison and toxic spikes immunity is a lot more beneficial to what I see becoming a support pokemon. Its STABs may be weaker, but the resistances and lack of weaknesses make it a better option in my opinion.
I think that poison and toxic spikes immunity is a lot more beneficial to what I see becoming a support pokemon. Its STABs may be weaker, but the resistances and lack of weaknesses make it a better option in my opinion.
"Explain how ground type grants immunity to most entry hazards. As far as I know, there are three: spikes, toxic spikes, and stealth rock... and dark/ground gives immunity to none of them."
My bad. You are totally correct. I meant resistance (not immunity) to SR, which I've seen most often. I really shouldn't type at school without proofing. Sorry.
My bad. You are totally correct. I meant resistance (not immunity) to SR, which I've seen most often. I really shouldn't type at school without proofing. Sorry.
Ground is the way to go. Though it is weak to 5 types, what does it need to switch in on?
Water: Swampert's Roar and Stealth rock. Incedentally, he hits Poison super effectively as well.
Ice: None.
Grass: Seeders such as Sceptile and Celebi. Possibly Pyroak's Stealth Rocks.
Bug: Forretriss, but he never uses Bug attacks. Jirachi can use U-turn, though.
Fighting: Maybe if they set up Stealth Rocks.
Water: Swampert's Roar and Stealth rock. Incedentally, he hits Poison super effectively as well.
Ice: None.
Grass: Seeders such as Sceptile and Celebi. Possibly Pyroak's Stealth Rocks.
Bug: Forretriss, but he never uses Bug attacks. Jirachi can use U-turn, though.
Fighting: Maybe if they set up Stealth Rocks.
wait, what?
it seems you are supporting ground (maybe?) but then have a list of the weaknesses without much explanation.
ice:none? seriously, how many teams have no pokes that can use ice moves? with salamence running around, it becomes almost required.
bug:you forgot that scizor also uses u-turn, and sometimes even x-scissor (though rarely). flygon often has u-turn. alakazam and celebi sometimes use signal beam un-STABed (both of which is are possible trick users you are supposed to deal with)
grass: did you forget about grass knot?
water and fighting:have no idea what you are trying to say here....
What he's saying is that this CAP's purpose is to stop the secondary, so it would need to come in on pokemon that use moves with secondary effects for the purpose of those secondary effects. Swampert's Roar is an example of this. However, what he is saying is that users of secondary effects AND a move of one of the aforementioned types are few and far between, meaning those weaknesses will have little/no effect on CAP9's ability to switch in on what it needs to switch in on. Whether this is true or not I don't know.
Poison is def. best. Ground, you stop the Secondary Effect of T-wave on just one Pokemon. Poison, you can stop the secondary effect for your whole team with the absorption of Toxic Spikes. That's more "Stopping the Secondary" in my opinion, because you truly STOP toxic spikes from coming into play. T-Wave could just be used on a different Pokemon. How does that help us?
Ground is really a bad choice for a secondary typing in my eyes, not only does it only prevent electric-type attacks from crippling you, but that doesn't especially help your team. Poison on the other hand can absorb Toxic Spikes (a crippling status), and with the Dark-typing it can beat Trick users. Depending on the ability, CAP9 is even going to get to be able to switch in on another secondary effective move. Ground can get an ability like Poison Heal, and you may say that nullifies my point, but that is further from the truth. Having one pokemon heal while the rest of the team suffers seems to be the opposite of what the idea actually is.
This is just my opinion though.
This is just my opinion though.
Nitpick: Dark typing is not what CAP9 will use to beat Trick users. A combination of the ability Sticky Hold (or similar) and the move Pursuit (whether it got STAB or not) is what CAP9 will need to beat Trick users.
EDIT:
I guess people think paralysis is a worse status than poison. It's easy to see why since paralysis picks the worst time to prevent a pokemon from doing something while poison just puts a countdown on the pokemon. At least you're guaranteed to heal your own poison status with Aromatherapy or whatever, whereas paralysis can prevent you from using a status healing move for at least one turn.
Still, there is the ability to come after this so I'm pretty sure immunities to both poison and paralysis will be gained by then.
If this is a prefference post, why is Ground winning in such a margin? I really don't know why, as the choices are pretty equal in effectiveness.
Why was Dark chosen in such a landslide victory in the first poll? That's what people chose. Who knows how the minds of others work? I only know how I think, and subsequently, what results of that. No one else.
I'll actually be off for quite a few hours after this, due to IRL issues. However, before I go, I'd like to list something. Below are the most commonly seen Thunderwave users in OU. Actually, they are really the only viable users at all. This is the percentage of them that the move has been seen on.
Blissey | Move | Thunder Wave | 37.3
Celebi | Move | Thunder Wave | 33.3
Cresselia | Move | Thunder Wave | 42.4
Porygon2 | Move | Thunder Wave | 49.0
Togekiss | Move | Thunder Wave | 43.9
So, out of the 5 Pokemon in OU that actually run thunderwave, you threaten two of them. Cresselia will not enjoy STAB Dark anything. However, depending on the Speed of our CAP, it could just Reflect up and laugh it away, (Something to take into consideration if Ground is chosen.) while being immune to our Ground STAB. Blissey doesn't like taking anything physical, so that is a bit of a moot point, imo. Celebi would easily threaten you back out with Grass Knot (Depending on weight) or Leaf Storm. Porygon2 and Togekiss don't really care about either STAB. As a matter of fact, Porygon2 can take advantage of whatever ability it is given on the switch in while Togekiss just enjoys its free switch in to a Ground move.
Of course, this is all a bit of a stretch, as movepool, stats, and the ability all could be used to take care of this. I just wanted to outline some issues Ground may have before leaving.
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