I personally agree with pink. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it make sense to keep the stop the seconday as defensive over offensive pokemon? By stopping the secondary, it doesn't make much of a point if you go wailing on them. Stop the secondary and a defensive, or slightly defensive, pokemon would help that and help strategetically by possibly stalling
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion
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Somwhat Offensive or Offensive
Having a Dark/Ground typing pretty much MEANS it will be offensviely orientated. The point of Dark is to punish Trickers and scare off ghosts while Ground prevents Twave.
Also, it needs offensive power to deal a large enough amount of damage to deter secondary users from using their secondary moves. The point is, if they can't take multiple hits, they shouldn't be taking a turn to set up secondaries.
Having a Dark/Ground typing pretty much MEANS it will be offensviely orientated. The point of Dark is to punish Trickers and scare off ghosts while Ground prevents Twave.
Also, it needs offensive power to deal a large enough amount of damage to deter secondary users from using their secondary moves. The point is, if they can't take multiple hits, they shouldn't be taking a turn to set up secondaries.
I don't want to make CAP9 a tank either, but I don't think that's what everyone's tryting to do. CAP9 needs to be able to take at least a few neutral hits from secondary users (let alone STAB SE ones) because even with huge sweeping prowess, it will need a rather large movepool to OHKO every single secondary user out there.
You're stopping the secondary permanently if you start wailing on them, as opposed to (possibly) permanently/temporarily/not at all if we go defensively.
I'd prefer not to take the chance.
This. First time I agree with you this entire process.
Oh and Deck's thing too. We can't have a defensive pokemon with this typing, and a defensive pokemon just delays the secondary, not stops it.
I'm going to throw in support for Somewhat Defensive, but close to being balanced. While I agree that offense is needed to fully stop secondary users, the ability to take a hit will also be integral to this pokemon, especially if it has to come in several times or take an attack instead of a predicted secondary move. A defensive stat spread doesn't mean it has to play the role of a wall, and with good offensive STABs, it shouldn't need to have major attack investments to deal damage with Pursuit and other secondary attack users.
Hmm, I'm going to stop arguing for either side (Somewhat Offensive or Somewhat Defensive) because after experimenting with some spreads, I can easily find some spreads right around the border that work pretty well. I still don't see any reason to run a completely Offensive or Defensive spread though.
Personally, I'm voteing for Somewhat Offensive.
The reasons are simple. CAP9 has to be able to switch in, in the event of misprediction and a non-status, non Super Effective move is used. We don't want this CAP taking 50+% from a resisted attack. However, we do want CAP9 to be able to hurt things with Persuit. If we go defensive, the main reason for giving CAP9 the Dark type, hurting things with Persuit, whill be lost, as Scizor and Tyranitar will do it so much better.
The reasons are simple. CAP9 has to be able to switch in, in the event of misprediction and a non-status, non Super Effective move is used. We don't want this CAP taking 50+% from a resisted attack. However, we do want CAP9 to be able to hurt things with Persuit. If we go defensive, the main reason for giving CAP9 the Dark type, hurting things with Persuit, whill be lost, as Scizor and Tyranitar will do it so much better.
This is what I was trying to describe. It's already going to have great Stabs, so a well balanced spread would prove well. The defense could help save it a few times and the offence to help... The obvious
Somewhat Offensive
It's all been said already. Enough bulk to take the hits from status abusers (generally more defesive orientated pokemon), but the grunt along with an awsome offesive typing to push out targets once their plans have been ruined (thus stay ruined).
It's all been said already. Enough bulk to take the hits from status abusers (generally more defesive orientated pokemon), but the grunt along with an awsome offesive typing to push out targets once their plans have been ruined (thus stay ruined).
Whatever defensiveness it gets is negated by unbelievably horrible defensive typing. It should be bulky offensive, so somewhat offensive is the way to go.
Somewhat Offensive or Offensive, I dont think that this CAP should be a tank, it should be able to switch in, and make the secondary users scared enough, so that the player won't want to switch them in again. Considering how large a movepool it would need to achieve that, it seems more obvious to give it higher offensive stats.
However, it would be pretty pointless if it cant take any hits, so I wouldn't mind Somewhat offensive.
However, it would be pretty pointless if it cant take any hits, so I wouldn't mind Somewhat offensive.
I'm going to agree with billy, we need this thing to be Offensive. I think this pokemon's typing allows it to switch in fairly easy on pokemon that use 'secondary' already (besides like bulky waters and Leaf Storm Celebi), so it doesn't need much of a boost in its defenses to allow it to switchin.
Meanwhile it does need some good offenses to stop pokemon from continually using their 'secondary'. Hyper offense has a way of doing that...
Meanwhile it does need some good offenses to stop pokemon from continually using their 'secondary'. Hyper offense has a way of doing that...
I think Somewhat Offensive has been said enough times, so I don't think I really need to explain why. If you, say, get in for free, you better be able to threaten the opposing Pokemon with some offensive might, while still having some bulk to switch in when your opponent predicts it.
I would also go with Somewhat Offensive. Hard to turn back now, considering that we've pretty much chosen type based on offensive prowess and this would only be consistent. And, also, I am of the view that stopping the secondary is best done offensively via a counterthreat.
Somewhat offensive. The only reason this pokemon is Dark is because it needed STAB pursuit. If this pokemon turns into, say, Umbreon, then it can't efficiantly use it. I shouldn't need to explain this.
Also, I kinda want this CAP to have a nitch that ISN'T filled by T-taur, who now almost outclasses us. I can see "somewhat defensive" making this pokemon go the way of Pyroak - because it'd be outclassed on so many levels.
Also, I kinda want this CAP to have a nitch that ISN'T filled by T-taur, who now almost outclasses us. I can see "somewhat defensive" making this pokemon go the way of Pyroak - because it'd be outclassed on so many levels.
I really can't understand all this rush for Somewhat offensive. Really, unless you give it crappy Sp.Atk (which is a thing I don't want to see - Skarmory anyone?), this thing needs all the power it can get in order to put the pressure up. I'm going to agree with billymills and say Offensive.
Also, to the people who claim Offensive = Frail, Salamence has 95/80/80 defense layout, which is not exactly the paragon of frailness (especially when you happen to resist SR). And Salamence is not the only case. Zapdos, Darkrai, Charizard have all very decent defensive stats (78/78/85 for Charizard, 70/90/90 for Darkrai and 90/85/90), and still are Offensive (style-wise).
Basically, if you go on the Somewhat offensive route, you are bound to go either Physical or Special (at least on the attacking spectrum). Since Pursuit is of crucial importance, this will mean probably Physical. And as I said before, crappy Special is not what we exactly want, with all the physically bulky secondary-effect users like Skarmory and Hippowdon. The best defense is offense!
Also, to the people who claim Offensive = Frail, Salamence has 95/80/80 defense layout, which is not exactly the paragon of frailness (especially when you happen to resist SR). And Salamence is not the only case. Zapdos, Darkrai, Charizard have all very decent defensive stats (78/78/85 for Charizard, 70/90/90 for Darkrai and 90/85/90), and still are Offensive (style-wise).
Basically, if you go on the Somewhat offensive route, you are bound to go either Physical or Special (at least on the attacking spectrum). Since Pursuit is of crucial importance, this will mean probably Physical. And as I said before, crappy Special is not what we exactly want, with all the physically bulky secondary-effect users like Skarmory and Hippowdon. The best defense is offense!
Defensive: -20 to -Infinity (Skarmory, Hippowdon, Blissey)
That makes these Pokemon so great is the fact that they need to offensive prowess to be effective. They come in and do their thing with little to no regard of the opposition... Isn't that what we want this cap to do? On the flip side, Skarm can dent things with BraveBird, Stab EQ off a good attack stat from Hippodon is nothin to scuff at, and if Blissey want it can pull off a Calm Mind set.
(Flavor Q don't count this against me o.o)
Has there been a defensive cap yet? I'll have to do some research.
That makes these Pokemon so great is the fact that they need to offensive prowess to be effective. They come in and do their thing with little to no regard of the opposition... Isn't that what we want this cap to do? On the flip side, Skarm can dent things with BraveBird, Stab EQ off a good attack stat from Hippodon is nothin to scuff at, and if Blissey want it can pull off a Calm Mind set.
(Flavor Q don't count this against me o.o)
Has there been a defensive cap yet? I'll have to do some research.
Ok, I'm going to address the issues that were raised towards my post first.
One way that we could surely make it easy to Stop The Secondary in a defensive way would be to (sorry for the minor poll jump) give this Pokemon mean look (hypothetically). That way, we bring our CAP in to absorb some Secondary Effect, then mean look the Pokemon while it tries to take advantage of no limited attacking abilities. This is just one example, and I'm certain we could figure out many more. Even giving it arena trap due to its Ground typing could work well. Again, hypothetically speaking of course.
In closing, I know we already picked types that hurt making this defensive. I argued against both of these types, especially ground, but no one listened to me. However, I'm sticking to my guns and saying that if we really want to keep CAP a learning process then we need to make this defensive. Otherwise, we will make an offensive Pokemon that we will know the role of and won't learn anything about Stopping the Secondary.
I'm officially supporting defensive.
One way that we could surely make it easy to Stop The Secondary in a defensive way would be to (sorry for the minor poll jump) give this Pokemon mean look (hypothetically). That way, we bring our CAP in to absorb some Secondary Effect, then mean look the Pokemon while it tries to take advantage of no limited attacking abilities. This is just one example, and I'm certain we could figure out many more. Even giving it arena trap due to its Ground typing could work well. Again, hypothetically speaking of course.
Sorry Deck, but this might be the worst argument I've ever seen you make. The point of CAP is to make things that don't currently exist in the metagame and see how it effects it. If it hasn't worked before, shouldn't we go on to make something that makes it work? I know my argument could go both ways here, if we were to make a T-tar (ish) CAP that can also remove hazards,blah blah blah we would be doing something new. Again though, I think it would be a much better learning experience if we looked at this from a defensive point of view rather than saying the best way to stop the secondary is to kill everything. That's rather obvious.Deck Knight said:
Then, I think we pretty much lost the concept of this CAP in a most horrible way if this is the general consensus. If the only thing we plan to do with our CAP is to absorb T-Wave and kill trick users and Celebi with Leech Seed we missed out on a great opportunity to learn a lot more about the metagame.Walvren said:
Why does it need to OHKO everything?! God guys! You're thinking of this in the complete wrong way! How do we learn ANYTHING from OHKOing everything? All we will see is offensive teams emerge because it won't be worth it to even try to set up Secondary Effects. That's not even theorymon, it's obvious. Why don't we take a direction that can actually teach us something. If we create a CAP that is really good at stopping Secondary Effects in a way were the users of said effects become pure death foder, then we will learn a lot more than just killing the users!Walvren said:
Again, someone tell me what this teaches us. The secondary user is dead. It didn't set up. So, people are going to be less inclined to use Secondary. Wow, that was easy. Do we need to make a CAP to test something we already do? I think not.Sgt Woodsly said:
In closing, I know we already picked types that hurt making this defensive. I argued against both of these types, especially ground, but no one listened to me. However, I'm sticking to my guns and saying that if we really want to keep CAP a learning process then we need to make this defensive. Otherwise, we will make an offensive Pokemon that we will know the role of and won't learn anything about Stopping the Secondary.
I'm officially supporting defensive.
Yeah, I'm going to have to say Offensive/Somewhat Offensive here.
CAP9 already has 5 weaknesses, so trying to defend him from anything other than key stuff isn't going to help him. And even if for some reason he doesn't have an ability that can absorb/nullify Toxic, he isn't completely useless when he eats it.
Another thing... familyguyman had a point when he said that Agility Empoleon, Tentacruel, Celebi and Starmie can easily get the jump on this guy if it become Dark/Ground, which it is. A combination of power and speed is what we need to stay ahead of them and at least 2HKO them without dying, if not OHKOing them. We've already achieved a good combination of power and speed with Somewhat Offensive before, which is why I'm fine if Somewhat Offensive wins rather than Offensive, as long as none of the more defensive builds win
CAP9 already has 5 weaknesses, so trying to defend him from anything other than key stuff isn't going to help him. And even if for some reason he doesn't have an ability that can absorb/nullify Toxic, he isn't completely useless when he eats it.
Another thing... familyguyman had a point when he said that Agility Empoleon, Tentacruel, Celebi and Starmie can easily get the jump on this guy if it become Dark/Ground, which it is. A combination of power and speed is what we need to stay ahead of them and at least 2HKO them without dying, if not OHKOing them. We've already achieved a good combination of power and speed with Somewhat Offensive before, which is why I'm fine if Somewhat Offensive wins rather than Offensive, as long as none of the more defensive builds win
*cough*Pyroak*cough* True, it was supposed to be balanced when we accidentally made it defensive, but that's beside the point
Considering what Pink said, i'm going to change my thoughts to very defensive, what he said is actually why I changed, so i'm not gonna bother re-typing everything.
I dont think this CAP should be in the "Somewhat" catagory. It's going to try to do everything, and fail. It needs to either be very offensive or very defensive, it shouldnt be able to do both.
I dont think this CAP should be in the "Somewhat" catagory. It's going to try to do everything, and fail. It needs to either be very offensive or very defensive, it shouldnt be able to do both.
Pyroak, and Cyclohm are both defensive (Hippowdon sats for Cyclohm). Revenankh could be considered defensive, especially with it's Crocune like Bulk Up + Rest, along with 90/90/100 defenses. The same with Argonaught, with his 105/95/100 defenses.
Now people, this is when we can start thinking about punishing users of secondary effects. It will be the stats and the movepool that determine how well CAP9 can punish users of secondary effects once it has come in on one that it doesn't mind.
As such, offence > defence, since the only way to stop users of secondary effects from trying to use them later is to wipe them out before they get the chance. I'm not sure whether major offence or more balanced offence will be the better option though.
As such, offence > defence, since the only way to stop users of secondary effects from trying to use them later is to wipe them out before they get the chance. I'm not sure whether major offence or more balanced offence will be the better option though.
Salamence is a pseudo-legendary with a base stat total of 600. Darkrai, like many event legendaries, shares this total, and the other two still have BSTs substantially in excess of 500. These are extremely high-stat Pokemon. I would rather not choose Offensive if it will shackle us to such big numbers when stat spreads happen.
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