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CAP1 - Part 12.5 - (Pre-Evo Stat Spread Submissions)

Discussion in 'CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop' started by Rising_Dusk, Apr 4, 2011.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Moving right along!

    CAP1's pre-evo now has its abilities and typing decided, so it's time to work out what the pre-evo's stat distribution will be. Note that stats for a pre-evo are very different from stats for a main CAP. LC stats run the gamut pretty much in every regard, be it super fast to super slow to super tanky to super frail and so on. You guys will post your submissions, and I will slate them if they're good and explained enough! Simple!

    For reference, these are the neutral-nature thresholds at which a level 5 Pokemon reaches a higher stat. On the left is the raw stat hit and on the right is the base stat used to achieve that new threshold. Note that for different base stats, the EV requirements to hit higher stat thresholds are different. While I don't expect CAP1's pre-evo to be too competitively focused, I do expect stat spread submitters to keep this in mind and display it in their submission posts.

    HP
    17: 5 (Minimum)
    18: 15
    19: 25
    20: 35
    21: 45
    22: 55
    23: 65
    24: 75
    25: 85
    26: 95
    27: 105
    28: 115
    29: 125
    30: 135

    ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE
    7: 5 (Minimum)
    8: 15
    9: 25
    10: 35
    11: 45
    12: 55
    13: 65
    14: 75
    15: 85
    16: 95
    17: 105
    18: 115
    19: 125
    20: 135

    NOTE: These base stats all require 236 EVs to get +3.

    Like I mentioned, consider a base Attack stat of 75. This results in 14 Attack for a level 5 pre-evo, with 236 Atk EVs needed to hit 17. A base Attack stat of 80, on the other hand, still starts at 14 Attack, but requires only 196 Atk EVs to hit 17. If we extend this further, you notice that the base Attack stat of 85 results in a flat 15 Attack. It takes 156 Atk EVs to raise that stat to 17. See how this trend works? Every 5 point increment of a base Stat requires 40 fewer EVs to hit the same effective stat. This is important to keep in mind, because the fewer EVs it takes to hit a desired stat, the more EVs can be invested elsewhere. If you choose weird non-divisible-by-5 base Stat numbers, the rule above still applies, it just isn't going from 236>196>156 anymore, it's somewhere in-between.

    Also, keep in mind that we don't have stat limits per se for the pre-evos. This doesn't mean that you can submit 500 BST monstrosities to this, as I will outright not slate them. You must justify your stat spreads effectively, presumably with relevant LC calculations, and not just throw them down and expect for me to accept them. While the pre-evo isn't competitively meaningful in the playtest, like I will reinforce again in the next paragraph, it will be usable in CAP LC, and thus shouldn't be absurd.

    Lastly, before we get going, I need to emphasize that CAP1's pre-evo will not affect CAP1's playtest at all! DO NOT under any circumstances say something like "But with eviolite, this could be better than the CAP!" because it doesn't matter. The playtest for a CAP assumes an injection of only the CAP into the metagame, not its pre-evos. These pre-evos are being created for completion's sake and for fun only.

    Anyway, good luck, and I hope we see some good stuff here!

    Here's our CAP so far:
    Name: Tomohawk
    Typing: Flying / Fighting
    Base Stats: 105 HP / 60 Atk / 90 Def / 115 SpA / 80 SpD / 85 Spe
    Abilities: Intimidate / Prankster
    Pre-Evos: One

    Here's our pre-evo so far:
    Typing: Normal / Fighting
    Abilities: Scrappy / Prankster
  2. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    I'm gonna start this off despite having no experience with statspread submissions and limited experience in LC.

    Base Stats: 75 HP / 20 Atk / 65 Def / 80 SpA / 55 SpD / 80 Spe for a BST of 375

    EDIT
    BSR: PS-39 / PT-97 / SS-116 / ST-84
    Overall-158

    Look this guy isn't going to be usable unless he is reasonably fast since typing is not good for him to be a wall (but I won't make him faster than Tomohawk). With base 80 speed and great special attack and likely access to vacuum wave, this CAP prevo could make an efficient revenge killer. At 80 speed he ties with one important pokemon Gastly, however, he fails to outpace one pokemon which I think needs to be a solid counter - Gligar. Also attack needs to be miniscule so that even a fire punch will do nothing to Ferroseed. After that, general bulk seems like a good option to me. 75/65/55 is not gonna tank, but it should be able to take a neutral hit or two.

    Scrappy Fighting and Normal is unresisted coverage, and I think that the prevo could function well with a Vacuum Wave, Aura Sphere, Hyper Voice (if it gets it), and HP Ice set (or something like that).

    Prankster would obviously still be a viable option for all the reasons it is good on Tomohawk too.
  3. Brammi

    Brammi

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    Tentative start of:

    75 HP / 100 Att / 55 Def / 20 SpA / 55 SpD / 85 Speed / Total: 390

    Just going off the mental immaturity thing here with Physical attack being the focus, I think that by choosing the Normal typing for the pre evo we accepted that something like this was the theme. 100 Att is high but not outrageous and gives it some interesting options, especially with Scrappy. The absurdly low SpA is to point out that the Pokemon needs to calm down when it evolves. The high attack also fits in with this flavour. Even defenses makes the most sense as it is a pre evo and that is a commonish theme unless the evo is similar in build and has a clear higher defensive stat. The first of these doesn't apply so I went for even. 75 is decent HP to round out the set and give it some survivability.

    85 speed is the same as its evo. It is a fairly common theme for Pokemon to have the same speed as their evolutions, I see no need to do differently here. Also puts is in the second highest speed tier which is a plus.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Yeah, I ain't doing big calcs for this.

    Evo Stats: 105 HP / 60 Atk / 90 Def / 115 SpA / 80 SpD / 85 Spe (Total 535)

    Prevo Stats: 65 HP / 45 Atk / 70 Def / 90 SpA / 55 SpD / 60 Spe (Total 385)

    PT: 94.2233
    ST: 76.2119
    PS: 58.8863
    SS: 107.1584
    BSR: 158.4036

    Stat: Base +3 (EVs) +

    HP: 23 > 26 (236)
    Atk: 11 > 14 (236) 15+
    Def: 13 > 16 (196) 17+
    SpA: 15 > 18 (196) 19+
    SpD: 12 > 15 (236) 16+
    Spe: 12 > 15 (196) 16+

    Evolution Growth style: Munchlax (-5) -> Snorlax (-5).

    Our prevo doesn't have its wings yet, but it's got a pretty good fighting spirit (Scrappy) so it's speed is middling. It's got a pretty good special attack, but it's HP is too high for it to abuse 19HP Life Orb. Considering that with Scrappy, Normal + Fighting is unresisted STAB, this is an acceptable balance. Our prevo is resistant to Sucker Punch and theoretically gets Vacuum Wave, so it should be just fine. Vacuum Wave/Aura Sphere/Hyper Voice/Hidden Power (Ice/Fire/Psy/Flying) should work quite nicely as a Scrappy set.
  5. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Ok, I've been spending time over my stat spread(which I discussed in #cap), and so far, I have this:-

    (Stat ranges are with 31 IVs, anda neutral nature)

    HP: 52 (21-24)
    Atk: 35 (10-13)
    Def: 72 (13-16)
    SpA: 75 (14-17
    SpDef: 72(13-16)
    Spe: 72(13-16)

    Optimum special sweeping spread: 20 HP/24 Def/236 SpA/20 SpD/180 Spe for Hidden power Ice. Deduct 4 EVs from Def if not runnign Hidden power Ice.

    Prankster requires good bulk, so I decided to use Scraggy's defenses, and optimize them.

    This Pokemon has Scraggy-level bulk(you'll notice if you look carefully that it actually hits the same defenses as Scraggy, with lesser EV investment), and simialr offenses. The addition to speed may at first sound very strong, but consider this: our pre-evo will literally not get any speed-boosting moves, if the non-attacking moves discussion for the evo is anything to go on. No Agility, no Rock Polish, zilch speed boosting moves. With this in mind, you'll realise that unlike Scragg, this will not be able to plow through the whole tier with a single turn. Instead, the focus of this spread is to provide a Pokemon that can tank a crucial hit, and can revenge kill it by utilising Scrappy. Some damage calculations:-

    236 Life Orb Modest Hyper Voice Vs 0/0 Misdreavus holding Eviolite: 45.5% - 59.1%(2HKO with Stealth Rock)(10 - 13)
    In return: 63.6% - 81.8%(14-18) from Max SpA Misdreavus with 20/20 HP/Def on pre-evo.

    This means that once our pre-evo gets in, unless it is fairly weakened, it will entirely stop Misdreavus from coming in, which is a nice feat to achieve.

    236 LO Modest Aura Sphere Vs 116/36 Scraggy with Evilite(Standard DD): 104.3% - 130.4%

    This is no mean feat. Scraggy is one of the biggest threats in the metagame, and the ability to OHKO it, preventing it from attempting to setup is a good feat.

    In return: 63.6% - 81.8% from a +1 Drain Punch(14-18). Once again, this can even revenge kill a +1 Scraggy without a Scarf, further cementing its role on teams.

    236 LO Modest 121.7% - 156.5% to offensive Eviolite SD Gligar with Hidden power Ice. This means that Gligar will not be able to set up on our pre-evo, something I feel is very important. Since we don't possess access to blazing fast Speed, we have to make up for it by making it very difficult to set up on CAP1, in which Scrappy is a leap in the right direction.

    60% - 75%(12 - 15)(Hyper Voice with earlier EVs) against Eviolite 36/76 Meditite. While this may seem a bit underwhelmign, recall that meditite has to choose whther it invests its last point in defense or SpD, and against Def Tite, this does 65% - 80%(13-16). Remember, Eviolite Meditite is just one set! This will dispatch with Life Orb versions of most of the earlier threats with no issues at all.

    Remember, these calcs are all with Life Orb Modest, and there is a specific reason for this. I want people to be forced to choose between hitting the coveted 17 speed tier, and gaining several KOes. I do not want this to turn into a Murkrow/(insert uber here), so I want to make this one-dimensional(specially absed), and to force it to sacrifice a speed point for getting crucial KOes, 2HKOes etc.

    I picture a Vacuum Wave/Hyper Voice/Aura Sphere/Hidden Power Ice Life Orb set to be the standard.

    On request of a few people, I have added BSRs to this submission.

    PT: 85.2652(Below Average)
    ST: 87.1367(Below Average
    PS: 54.2824(Poor)
    SS: 107.7833
    ODB: 2.8580(Slightly biased towards offense)
    PSB: -8.1112
    BSR: 157.0859
  6. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    I am expecting that this rule (or the absence thereof) may lead to CAP pre-evos with relatively high BSTs, so i figured to do a little checking on current game data. I compiled a list of pre-evos of two-stage pokemon with the highest BSTs, presented below:
    Show Hide

    *Scyther 500
    *Tangela 435
    *Misdreavus 435
    *Gligar 430
    *Sneasel 430
    Ponyta 410
    **Archen 401
    *Porygon 395
    *Yanma 390
    ***Muchlax 390
    *Onix 385
    *Lickitung 385
    *Nosepass 375
    Vullaby 370
    *Aipom 360
    Larvesta 360
    **Omanyte 355
    **Kabuto 355
    **Lileep 355
    **Anorith 355
    **Tirtouga355
    Growlithe 350
    **Cranidos 350
    **Shieldon 350
    Buneary 350
    Mienfoo 350
    Rufflet 350
    Drifloon 348

    * pokemon that evolved at a later generation
    ** fossil pokemon
    *** a pre-evo of an old gen pokemon

    As you can notice, most of them are pokemon that evolved at a later generation. Most pre-evo BSTs range around 350 or lower. Ponyta way up there is a weird case though. I never knew it had that high BST before evolving. I was hoping to suggest a pre-evo BST range/limit, but Ponyta alone makes my whole argument moot, so I guess it really just depends on the submissions and TL discretion then. ^^ I personally opted for 350, same as Growlithe and Buneary.


    105 HP / 60 Atk / 90 Def / 115 SpA / 80 SpD / 85 Spe (Total 535) — Tomohawk's stats
    55 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 20 SpA / 70 SpD / 40 Spe (Total 350) — Tomo's baby bro!


    First thing to notice is how the pre-evo has a high attack (85 Atk) but abysmal special attack (20 SpA). I envision the pre-evo to be a fierce warrior cub, incapable of using arcane spells, but skilled in physical combat. Only after evolving into Tomohawk does it gain magic capabilities.

    Second, it has really high defenses (55 HP / 80 Def / 70 SpD). Eviolite is, for me, the best competitive item Gen5 has brought to the metagame. I'm hoping CAP1 pre-evo can let us "evaluate" it's competitive merit.

    Lastly, low speed (40 Spe), as without the wings (yet) it must be considirably slower than Tomohawk. Besides, Prankster allows us to bypass this low stat.

    Level 5 LC stats
    55 HP: 22 - 25 (236)
    85 Atk: 15 - 18 (236) 19+
    80 Def: 14 - 17 (196) 18+
    20 SpA: 8 - 11 (196) 12+
    70 SpD: 13 - 16 (196) 17+
    40 Spe: 10 - 13 (196) 14+
    (^ format stolen from Deck Knight)

    (as requested)
    Physical Sweepiness (PS): 78.73
    Special Sweepiness (SS): 38.74
    Physical Tankiness (PT): 97.96
    Special Tankiness (ST): 87.32
    Base Stat Ratings (BSR): 136.32


    Even with a low BST of 350, you may notice that the PS, PT and ST are quite high. This is due to the low SpA, so you can say that my proposed stat spread is optimized to be a physical attacker.


    Last thoughts:
    I get the feeling that this Pre-evo stage in CAP is more for the LC players. But with eviolite, a pre-evo with this stat spread can be put to good use in the current metagame. I have no clear experience with Little Cup, so please advise me if this stat spread would make a broken defensive behemoth in LC.
  7. Gerard

    Gerard

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    I'm still gonna do calculations but i agree that something "dumb" but strong should be a pre-evo, just like lucario/riolu, in that he gains the special power when he matures and evolves.

    78 HP / 82 Atk / 40 Def / 21 SpA / 80 SpDef / 65 Spe = 365 BST


    HP: 78 (24 - 27)
    Atk: 82 (15 - 18) 19+
    Def: 45 (11 - 14) 15+
    SpA: 15 (8 - 11) 12+
    SpDef: 80 (14 - 17) 18+
    Spe: 65 (12 - 15) 16+


    It is able to take a good amount of damage and still be able to hit back with a great attack stat, still with a horrible SpA (because is not mature enough to be able to control that much power) he's not gonna be able to be an awesome mixed attacker, with enough speed to outspeed Scraggy (or maybe encore it if he uses Dragon Dance) he doesn't has the sheer speed (or any boosting moves) to actually sweep without help still getting to 14 speed makes him able to get a nice Choice Scarf set, while a buly eviolite set is still very possible and effective with sub/recovery


    This Stats are enough to do a clean OHKO in Scraggy (even with evo-stone) using close combat (a move it could get trough breeding) and enough to ressist a hidden power fighting from Misdreavus, it OHKOs Ferroseed 1/3of the time, but cannot OHKO for sure unless tree capes of spikes, it OHKOs no Defense Investment Lileep 1/2 of the time and 2HKOs even after a curse, this is not unstoppable, since gligar stops it (without loosing momentum since it shouldn't rock polish or swords dance because of a possible encore), stuff like slowbro are not OHKO for a return and OHKO with zen headbutt for the offensive varians, and scald is gonna hurt every swich in (without counting the possible burn, which is awful considering this is a physical attack)

    Ofensively it get's enought coverage with a normal and fighting attack for normal coverage (with Scrappy) so it doesn't need many more moves so he can go sub/recover, abd at the same time, being outspeeded by almost everything that's commonl a sweeper, being fighting week means he is easily revenge killed if not Bottom Passed enough speed, although he can take some neutral hits and still kill (also this guy has to chose even prankser (defensive) or Scrappy (offensive))

    PD: the "weird" numbers are because at about 500 EVs, the dfenses can be maximized and you can add a point in attack, or you can use it all in attack, but still be able to gain 2hp
  8. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    I'm looking at all these spreads, and my first thought is, "Wow, kinda high BSTs, aren't they?" (Side note, can we get some BSRs? I know it's all flavour, but still)

    For the Pre-Hawk spread, I was looking more for a normal "Evolves once" range, something along the lines of 300 to maybe 345 (Rhyhorn's, which was originally one-evolve) for the BST.

    Also, why all the high attacks? Does gaining wings make Tomohawk weaker than it's prevo? Can anyone even show a precedent for that kinda thing?
  9. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    So how about a spread like this:

    70 HP
    20 Atk
    60 Def
    75 SpA
    53 SpD
    56 Spe
    334 BST

    (And cause Rising_Dusk seemed to be asking for them on IRC) Here are the BSRs:

    PT: 84.6075
    ST: 77.0215
    PS: 34.0925
    SS: 92.3630
    BSR: 126.7118

    So I'm not gonna lie, I am not an avid LC player (though it is fun from time to time), and this spread is mostly based on what I think is acceptable for it as a Pokemon fan in general. Like the majority of pre-evolved Pokemon, its stats somewhat mirror those of its evolution. In fact for the most part, my stats are just 2/3 of Tomohawk's stats. The only other major change was that I the halved Attack to get it to what I thought was a more appropriate BST without affecting its competitiveness too much.

    Basically, when I look at these stats, It makes me feel like it is not necessarily bad at anything (other than physical sweeping), but is not going to be a top threat at anything either. This will let it find a niche based just as much on its abilities and movepool as its stats.

    Edit: Apparently, I accidentally lowered SpA one point from what would have been 2/3. Oh well. It still works fine like this.

    Now to compare it to some other Pokemon:

    The highest stat on this spread is Special Attack. 75 SpA is not amazing or anything, but it is certainly above average. This would allow it to reach a maximum stat of 18 on an offensive set, which is the same as guys like Houndour and Zoura. While both those Pokemon sport better speed (by 1 point if at max), they are also frailer that this Pokemon would be.

    Sticking with offense, a Speed stat of 56 is by no means fast, and probably won't lead this Pokemon to be a straight up sweeper, but it puts it in a tie with a large group of Pokemon. Reaching a maximum of 16, 15 with a neutral nature, it ties with Pokemon such as Snivy, Chimchar, the elemental monkeys, Pichu, Riolu, Rufflet, Meditite, Pawniard, any many others. I would assume this is an important speed number due to all these Pokemon, and it would be nice if I were right in that assumption.

    Defensively though, is where I think it is really nice. It hits a max HP of 26, which is not too uncommon, but not a ton of Pokemon have as good mixed defenses as this. Bronzor obviously is one of the first guys to come to mind defensively in LC, and indeed it has better defenses on both sides to go with an only slightly lower 25 HP. It also falls short of the bulk of guys like Gligar, Lilleep, and Vullaby. But as I stated earlier, it is fairly well rounded in all regards, so its not like it would suffer by being completely inferior to any of these walls.

    The main point, like I have already stated, is that these stats give it the ability to do many things, but not being too good at anything, thus allowing its abilities and movepool to have greater impact on how it is played
  10. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I'm slightly bothered by the lack of BSRs so far. I recognize that most of our understanding of those numbers are tailored to the OU metagame, but you can absolutely use my little spreadsheet to determine the values you need.

    Compare them to relevant strong Pokemon like:
    Scraggy: PS: 78.7528, SS: 53.0827, PT: 81.0701, ST: 83.0791, BSR: 131.8852

    On the note of Scraggy, let's see some calculations, shall we? I think focusing on some relevant defensive and offensive Pokemon would be good. Scraggy, Bronzor, Munchlax, Timburr, Chinchou, Misdreavus, etc. Also, theorymon out a decent EV spread. If you're optimizing your BST, I want to know why, I want to know why you chose 72 over 70. And no, "because it's higher" doesn't count! I'm not asking for paragraphs, but one paragraph that says "this is a physical spread that can kill stuff" is not helping me any. Tell me what speed tier you hit, tell me some relevant Pokemon it outspeeds, etc.

    Something like Brammi's 100/85 physical attacking stats scares me, for instance. Can you name a single other Pokemon in LC that strong? I mean, that's a 144 PS BSR! That would be legit for a fully evolved Pokemon! To compare, Elekid has 100.3541 PS, Timburr has 73.0404, Dratini has 70.4680, and Scraggy has 78.7528! I mean, sure, CAP1 isn't picking up a huge boosting movepool, but Bulk Up and Swords Dance are very possible! I would not be OK with the pre-evo having a 100 Attack stat—or even an 80 Attack stat—and picking up any of those boosting moves. I think it's much safer (and easier to justify) to stay with a special attacking bias. That isn't to say physical attacking should be bad, rather, that if you really want to go down that alley you need to put out the big time effort to explain it.

    For reference, I think the level of justification Destiny Warrior put into his submission is fair. I see some calcs there, and while they look scary, I also see that he only hits 16 Speed, which keeps him just under the 17 Speed Pokemon that can take advantage of him. His stats aren't even that gouged! That's with a 75 base SpA! Can you guys imagine what 90 or even 100 in an attacking stat would do? Be mindful of these things, and if you're unsure because you don't play a lot of LC, compare the BSRs and raw stats to some popular mons to get a feel for it.

    Keep going!
  11. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Hmm.

    Hp: 60 (23 to a max of 26 w/ 236 EVs in LC, 100 CAP ASB HP)
    Attack: 32 (10 to a max of 13 w/ 196 EVs in LC, 2 CAP ASB stars)
    Defense: 60 (15 to a max of 18 w/ 236 EVs in LC, 3 CAP ASB stars)
    Special Attack: 65 (13 to a max of 16 w/ 236 EVs in LC, 3 CAP ASB stars)
    Special Defense: 50 (11 to a max of 14 w/ 196 EVs in LC, 2 CAP ASB stars)
    Speed: 73 (13 to a max of 17 w/ 252 EVs in LC)
    BST: 340
    PT: 76.8352
    ST: 66.4051
    PS: 50.8751
    SS: 96.0988
    BSR: 128.1063

    Don't really play LC much. I pretty much just made a flavor spread (with minor ASB tweaks) then altered stuff until it had a worse BSR than Scraggy. The end result is pretty much what you have here.

    HP
    17: 5 (Minimum)
    18: 15
    19: 25
    20: 35
    21: 45
    22: 55
    23: 65
    24: 75
    25: 85
    26: 95
    27: 105
    28: 115
    29: 125
    30: 135

    ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE
    7: 5 (Minimum)
    8: 15
    9: 25
    10: 35
    11: 45
    12: 55
    13: 65
    14: 75
    15: 85
    16: 95
    17: 105
    18: 115
    19: 125
    20: 135
  12. Naxte

    Naxte

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    Larvesta --> Volcarona would probably be the most obvious one. Larvesta has 85 Atk/50 SpA and learns all sorts of physical attacks through level-up like Flare Blitz, whereas Volcarona has 60 Atk/135 SpA, learns mostly special attacks through level-up and can't learn stuff like Flare Blitz at all once it's evolved.

    It's true that it's very likely to wind up with such move , but even so, that doesn't me we have to give it's pre-evo access to them, does it? At least I'm assuming that Tomohawk and it's pre-evo won't have the same exact movepool (not sure how this pre-evo stuff will work there, so correct me if I'm wrong), so couldn't such moves just be excluded in that case, and there wouldn't be any problems (especially as it seems they're what you're really worried about, and not quite so much the stats themselves, though those also of course could probably be cut down a bit)?
  13. AlphaJolt

    AlphaJolt

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    My proposed Stat Spread is as follows:

    BST: 362
    HP: 70 (23-26)
    Atk: 30 (9-12)
    Def: 60 (12-15)
    SpA: 82 (14-17)
    SpD: 55 (12-15)
    Spe: 65 (13-16)

    The above stat calcs are with a neutral nature, and 0-max EVs. I think he should be a special attacker like his evo. I don't find base 82 SpA too high as he can't boost it at all and it maxes at 18 with a positive nature and 180 EVs. I don't want him so fast that he outpaces lots of sweepers, who are normally 17+, but I want him fast enough that if he sweeps he is still outpacing a good portion of the metagame. I purposely made his Speed a pain to raise and his bulk easy to raise, so that he's mostly choosing between Speed or bulk. His Special Attack is easy to raise, even on a more defensive set, requireing only 20 EVs to raise by a single point. He can't be both fast and very powerful, and he must choose between either 18/16 or 17/17 and this isn't taking into account if he wants to add extra bulk outside of +1 to both HP and Def, as Prankster likes having slightly more bulk.

    Here is the EV spread for a Special Sweeper:
    Modest 36 HP / 36 Def (40*) / 180 SpA / 236 Spe (24/8/13/18/12/16)
    (If Timid is used, it'll be 17 SpA and 17 Spe but same spread)
    *40 if HP Ice is used

    His BSR is:
    PT: 84.6075
    ST: 79.7298
    PS: 45.6933
    SS: 105.3334
    BSR: 144.5759

    Here are some other BSRs of LC pokemon to show that this isn't too high or too low:
    Ponyta: 183.1035
    Gligar: 202.5275
    Misreavus: 203.2658
    Slowpoke: 126.4717
    Scraggy: 131.8852
    Ferrothorn: 124.5395
    Frillish: 124.9928
    Meditite: 103.8548 (doubled atk stat for pure power)

    The BSR of my suggested set isn't too high or too low. The stats make you choose between either bulk or an offensive spread, but you can't have both. Any comments or critiques will be appreciated, and I can answer any questions as well.
  14. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Yeaa let's try this again. I firmly believe that Cub (nicknaming it Cub right now) should be physically-based.

    HP: 71 (22 - 25)
    Attack: 75 (14 - 17)
    Defense: 61 (13 - 16)
    Sp.A: 44 (10 - 14)
    Sp.D: 57 (13 - 16)
    Speed: 55 (12 - 15)

    PT: 86.79 (Below Average)
    ST: 83.16 (Below Average)
    PS: 91.93 (Below Average)
    SS: 62.82 (Poor)

    ODB: 0.34 (Slightly biased towards offense)
    PSB: 4.80 (Slightly biased towards physical)

    BSR: 150.69 (Below Average)
    BST: 373

    As you can see, Cub is pretty balanced. Zuruggu / Scraggy reaches a PS of 78.75, significantly less than Cub. However, Zuruggu has the moves that allow it to become a threatening sweeper. Cub lacks the setup moves that Zuruggu possesses, so I think it balances out.

    I made this spread with Zuruggu in mind. I wanted a defensive set to work best, but I also made it such that an offensive set could work. With the given spread, it is possible to max out attack and speed, and add one point to HP and Sp.A. I also made it such that a mixed attacking set could work: a set with 252 Sp.A / 236 Spe gives Cub 14 / 14 / 15 attacking stats. It doesn't seem too great, but an LO Close Combat with this spread is guaranteed to OHKO standard 116 / 36 Scraggy. It can also utilize Vacuum Wave and Hyper Voice, while also being able to scout with Fake Out.

    I'm running out of time, so I'll leave it here for now. Comments or suggestions are appreciated, and I'll update this later.
  15. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Base Stats: 60/35/70/65/60/65 - 355 BST

    PS: 50.8995 SS: 88.2326 PT: 89.8389 ST: 78.9829 BSR: 139.7232
    ODB: -.7514 (Biased toward Defense) PSB: -3.8785 (Moderately Biased toward Special)

    No investment stats: 22/10/13/13/12/13
    Various EV Spreads (open)
    Offensive: Timid; 36 HP, 236 SpA, 236 Spd; EVs unaffected by HP Ice; Gives 23/9/13/16/12/17, giving it similar offensive power to Houndour stat-wise (one less SpA point and the same speed). However, it has far lower base power on its attacks, and far worse super effective coverage than Houndour, and would likely not carry a life orb.

    • Hidden Power Ice vs Defensive Gligar (76 HP, 76 SpD) - 21-25 - A guaranteed ohko after Stealth Rock, and possible before. It cannot heal with roost on average.
    • Aura Sphere vs Eviolite Scraggy - 19-22 - A small chance for a ohko after stealth rock. It has a 50% chance to ohko with modest, and with a life orb and timid Scraggy has a very small chance of living Aura Sphere without rocks. I feel that Scraggy should be a check to Minihawk (it can DD and then ohko with Drain Punch), so I tried to avoid the ohko on Scraggy, while also allowing Minihawk to bypass Scraggy, at the cost of a speed point or a significant amount of bulk.
    • Scrappy Aura Sphere vs Offensive Misdreavus - 15-17 - Never a ohko. Does not 2hko on average if Misdreavus has an Oran Berry, however it's almost guaranteed to 2hko with Stealth Rock support. However, Misdreavus can ohko non-eviolite versions with psychic and has a shot to ohko with hidden power fighting after stealth rock, and it also outspeeds. Eviolite Minihawk is solidly 2hkoed by hidden power fighting (56% minimum).
    • Hyper Voice vs Slowpoke - 11-13 - Never 2hkoes. Though unlikely, slowpoke can ohko Minihawk with Psychic in return with Stealth Rock support.
    Defensive: Timid; 196 HP, 40 Def, 76 SpA, 116 SpD, 76 Spe; Accounts for a 30 Defense IV for Hidden Power Ice, but it doesn't affect the actual stats (it has enough leftover evs). 25/9/14/14/14/15 Stats, giving it 25/21/21 defenses after Eviolite is applied. The defenses are similar to Bulky Misdreavus (24/21/22 after Eviolite, assuming a spread with max speed), however, it doesn't have Will-o-Wisp, its immunity is far less useful than any of Misdreavus', and its offenses and speed are all lower. Additionally, its weaknesses are way more easily accessable than Misdreavus', so while its defenses are solid, they will be far from unbreakable.

    • Timburr Drain Punch - 18-21 - Doesn't quite ko, but it underspeeds you and can heal off any damage you do to it. Mach Punch ohkoes next turn.
    • Taillow Brave Bird before Guts - 23-27 - An example of a revenge killer, and a weak one at that.
    • Slowpoke Psychic - 16-19 - A clean 2hko. Zen Headbutt also always 2hkoes.
    • Timid Scarf Chinchou Hydro Pump - 11-13 - A shot at a 2hko. Modest 2hkoes most of the time.
    Minihawk lacks coverage moves or stat up moves, and can't abuse status. It has a glaring weakness to fighting attacks, the best and most common type in Little Cup. Though it has a great ability in Prankster, it can't effectively use it, as it then loses coverage against ghosts. To compensate for its shortfalls, I gave it enough SpA so that it can hit a lot of stuff pretty hard and enough bulk to live a hit or two, while still remaining counterable/checkable. The abundance of fighting types and its good, not great speed means that it won't be sweeping anything any time soon, as it is easy to revenge and even with perfect prediction is has effective counters.
  16. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Alright, I think this has been open long enough. I will be slating for poll in order of submission:
    Deck Knight
    Destiny Warrior
    zytefredric
    Engineer Pikachu
    Nails
    I'd like to thank everyone else who participated, but for one reason or another, I decided not to slate your entries. In some cases it was a terrifying sweepiness, or I was just not convinced by your post, or your submission was way too similar to another one that I thought was presented in a superior manner.

    Expect a poll soon!
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