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CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 9 - Complete Movepool Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, May 9, 2014.

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  1. The Pizza Man

    The Pizza Man

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    Fixed it, but why did you only tag me when Ramplestilskin has it in his submission too
  2. The Reptile

    The Reptile make it rain
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Final Submission

    * = RM
    + = Repeated Move

    Level-Up (open)

    -- Camouflage
    -- Lava Plume
    -- Wrap
    -- Leech Life
    -- Bubble
    03 Wrap +
    03 Leech Life +
    05 Bubble +
    09 Confuse Ray
    12 Bite
    15 Whirlpool
    18 Bubble Beam
    21 Flash
    24 Heat Wave*
    31 Scald*
    35 Scary Face
    38 Slam
    41 Dive
    45 Aqua Jet*
    49 Hydro Pump*
    54 Overheat*

    • Water STABs
    I chose the progression of Bubble -> Bubble Beam -> Scald -> Hydro Pump is simple. Boiling water usually bubbles, so Bubble and Bubble Beam can be seen as an extension of Boiling Water. Scald is the logical progression from this, and then Hydro Pump is there as the final stage of Water STAB due to its high power. Aqua Jet is simple, as I can imagine Volkraken jetting around in the deep sea. This is also why I put Dive there - to show its relation with the deep sea. Whirlpool (and since I'm here - Fire Spin) are to show that Volkraken can be a bit cruel, trapping its prey while slowly chipping away at it. Also I think it was addressed in here that Aqua Jet (and other physical STABs) are ok despite being not being in the OP, correct me if I'm wrong.
    • Fire STABs
    Fire STABs are kind of lacking here - most of them are gotten by TMs. However, it needs at least one Fire STAB on there, and Heat Wave is the best flavor one, as it can naturally create waves of heat underwater. Overheat was chosen for similar reasons to Heat Wave. It also seems like a really nice Lava Plume is also there, although as a heart scale move, due to competitive reasons and flavor reasons. I've chosen to remove Fire Spin, as it does not make sense for an underwater creature to be able to create rings of fire under the sea (at least not naturally).
    • Moves related to its "second face" / bio-luminescence
    This is in relation to Leer, Scary Face, Confuse Ray, and Flash. Leer and Scary Face are direct uses of its "second face" in order to scare the foe, thus making it easier to attack its prey. However, I think it having the ability to disorient the foe via Flash and Confuse Ray fits well flavor-wise as well, as this lets it hunt effectively. Also Camoflage is there because octopus.
    • Tentacle Moves / Leech Life
    These are pretty easy to explain - they have flavor with its tentacles. Pretty much think of Tentacruel and Octilery and how they get most of these moves. The exception is Slam - Volkraken has long and thick tentacles, letting it easily smack people around with it, which is where Slam comes from. Leech Life is there because vampire. I was going to add Pain Split for the vampire theme, but I feel that Pain Split is anti-concept due to the SubSplit set ginja was talking about. Bite has been moved to its level-up movepool for that vampire flavor.


    Egg Moves (open)


    Egg Group: Water 1 and Water 3

    -- Faint Attack
    -- Memento*
    -- Octozooka
    -- Pursuit*
    -- Stealth Rock*

    Pretty much this is where I dumped all of its dark flavor moves. Faint Attack is there to show that Volkraken is used to fighting in the dark, since it's very dark in the bottom of the ocean. It also shows vampire qualities, as vampires are usually associated with the dark. Memento is there because of Volkraken causing harm even after death. Pursuit is to show its predatory skills. Octozooka is there because its a nice octopus flavor move. Stealth Rock isn't far fetched competitively, as it has volcanic flavor, and other pokemon with volcanic flavor have Stealth Rock. SR is good competitively because it lets it support its teammates (mainly Lucario). It gets it via Lileep in Water 3.


    TMs and HMs (open)

    TMs
    06 Toxic*
    10 Hidden Power*
    11 Sunny Day*
    15 Hyper Beam
    17 Protect*
    18 Rain Dance*
    21 Frustration*
    27 Return*
    32 Double Team
    33 Reflect*
    35 Flamethrower*
    38 Fire Blast*
    42 Facade*
    44 Rest*
    45 Attract
    48 Round
    50 Overheat*+
    55 Scald*+
    59 Incinerate
    61 Will-O-Wisp*
    68 Giga Impact
    70 Flash +
    87 Swagger*
    88 Sleep Talk*
    89 U-Turn*
    90 Substitute*
    100 Confide
    HMs
    03 Surf*
    05 Waterfall*


    This is where the bulk of its Fire STABs reside. Most of these are pretty obvious and don't really need justification imo, as they are either fire STAB or required moves. Reflect is there to show its bioluminent powers again. U-Turn is there for similar reasons it has Aqua Jet - it can easily jet around, including in a U-Turn. U-Turn is also neat competitively as it give its teammates momentum. Rain Dance and Sunny Day are there because most Fire- and Water-types get their respective weather moves, and there's no real reason to not have them on here.


    Total Unique RMs = 26
    Total Unique Moves = 55

    EDIT: Followed up on BMB's critique. mainly removed poison flavor because I think it is the least important. Also, overlooked the lack of Lava Plume. This has been fixed.

    EDIT2: Removes Fire Spin and added a slight addition to the justifications.

    EDIT3: Fixed some oversights. Added Stealth Rock for competitive reasons. Final Submission mode
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
    Arhops likes this.
  3. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Alright I'm posting again to announce I have finalized my submission. In order to avoid the fiasco surrounding the Substitute / Toxic / Scald / Pain Split set, I have replaced Pain Split with Destiny Bond in the Level-Up list. Destiny Bond actually sort of works better for the flavor of the Level-Up pool, which is nice, although it has very little competitive value, which I'm actually not very concerned about due to my stated goal of reducing the movepool to a predictable set of options. I apologize about the vastness of my explanations for both the competitive and flavor aspects of my submission; I just wanted to be thorough in explaining my methods and decisions.

    I may return with individual or general feedback as more progress is made on the current submissions and if more submissions are posted and if I have time. I encourage others to provide feedback as well, especially those observing the thread but not submitting themselves. It is difficult to make tough decisions on how to construct these movepools when the people voting on them aren't involved in the process. Even if it's just a comment of flavor or general trends amongst a group of submissions, these sorts of constructive criticisms are very important to this stage in the project and are a great deal of help to both the submitters themselves and to the outcome of the project.

    EDIT: after considering the calcs, there really is nothing Overheat can do that Fire Blast can't do already except force the CAP to switch out again in exchange for marginally higher damage. Since it's an "everything gets" move for Fire-types, I've added it to the movepool, as it really can't see that much use when it is strategically inferior to Fire Blast.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  4. Toebag

    Toebag

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    I had Overheat in my level-up movepool, however calculations that others provided convinced me that 2HKOing Lati@s is not helping our them stay as threats. So this got replaced with Fire Blast in the level up movepool (which 3HKOs the Lati-twins).

    As a follow on from this, I looked into calculations on what LO Fire Blast + U-turn would do to Latias in this given situation:

    numbers (open)

    This is using 252HP/Sp.Att Modest Volkraken and a 252Sp.Att/Speed Timid Latias.
    On the switch in:
    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 136-161 (45 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO.
    That doesn't sound too bad right now.
    Turn 2: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
    Volkraken is at worst left with 10% health after life orb damage, but then:
    0- Atk Life Orb Analytic Volcanion U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 88-107 (29.1 - 35.4%) -- 16.1% chance to 3HKO.


    That's a hell of a lot of damage for an uninvested and detrimentally natured Attack. So, our Volkraken takes the Life Orb damage and is possibly KO'd, but the Latias, our threat, is left with only 12-25% health left, leaving any (unresisted) priority user to come in and finish the job.

    I'm concerned that this raises an issue over whether Latias is truly a check to Volk in this situation?
    On a 1v1 situation. Yeah, 2 Draco Meteors would outright remove Volkraken, and Latias would be on just over 45% health at worst. Thumbs up! No problems!
    However, in the situation I calculated above, Volkraken is still KO'd but, Latias is in a very fragile state, leaving Espeed/Bullet Punch Lucario free to clear up. That's a win for the core. But did Volkraken deal too much damage?

    If anyone can answer or clarify this, it would be integral in my decision on potentially removing U-turn from the movepool. However, until I get further opinion, I'll leave it as it is.

    One final thought; I suppose there is no difference in applying the above situation to getting 2 Fire Blasts off against Latias instead of using Fire Blast+U-turn. Latias would still be left crippled. But since I did the calcs and wrote all this out, it'd be a shame to waste my time by not posting it.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
    turd bunny and Dragonblaze052 like this.
  5. escarlata

    escarlata

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    Final Submission
    Can barely think of anything else that I can add, and am overall satisfied with how it ended up. Guess that's it for final submission.

    Overview:
    I really like movepools that highlights about the life of a Pokemon. It feels very engaging and brings the feels. Example of such movepool include stuff like Salamence, Butterfree etc.

    This movepool aims to tell a story, one of determination, one where the generic water type finds its affinity with fire; but it is only because of endless hardwork, creating a legend.


    Bold for RM
    Non-Bold for Non-RM​

    The beginning of change: where water meets fire

    Level-up moves (open)
    00: Scald
    00: Lava Plume
    00: Eerie Impulse
    00: Leech Life
    04: Water Gun
    08: Smog
    12: Smokescreen
    16: Aqua Ring
    21: Octazooka
    26: Rain Dance
    31: Clear Smog
    36: Flail
    42: Incinerate
    48: Power Gem
    54: Hydro Pump
    60: Memento

    RM: 7
    Total moves: 16
    Level-up moves flavors (open)
    I took references from Stunky and Seismitoad to get a rough gauge of level range for different types of moves. The rate of which moves are gotten draws from the eerie theme of the vampire squid, which has affiliation with death (死), which is commonly associated with the number 4 in Asian countries; As such, making an assumption that there is an evolution between 16~21, and another between 36~42, each evolution learns exactly 4 moves, learnt at 4/5/6 levels apart respectively. The increasing cap is because the closer you are to completing the training, the harder it is to improve. Accounting in the 4 move that are gotten at level 1, we have a total 4 sets of 4 moves. Lava Plume and Scald of course demonstrating its ability to now produce heat, hence only appearing as a retutor move for Volkraken, but not its pre-evo(s).

    A closer inspection of the moves learned in each evolution, they follow a specific sequence as well. Water Gun > Octazooka > Hydro Pump shows the increased efficiency of its usage of water as it grows. Aqua Ring > Rain Dance > Memento shows the increased violence gained during evolution. Smoke Screen > Flail > Power Gem are just typical flavor moves because they fit. The one I want to capitalize on more is Smog > Clear Smog > Incinerate. Smog is caused as a result of incomplete combustion, which becomes clearer with more oxygen, which makes burning a easier job; finally, incinerate is what eventually happens when it succeeds in burning.

    Unfortunately, I dropped any usable Fire STAB in the level-up move pool because from design-wise, I don't envision its pre-evo(s) to be part Fire, so I made sure my first Fire type appeared at a level which is reasonable for it to have its final evolution. Incinerate seems very appropriate to signify that it has finally found affinity with Fire, so I can't resist the temptation to not give it to him. So for the main Fire STABs, they will come from TMs. Finally, Memento being the last move because it literally is the last move to use before it dies. As a vampire squid, Volkraken allows its bite leaving a lasting impact in the body of the enemy.

    Mastering the flame: success does not come in a day
    TM (open)
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power

    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance*
    TM21 Frustration

    TM23 Smack Down
    TM27 Return**
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest

    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round

    TM54 Scald*
    TM56 Fling
    TM59 Incinerate*
    TM60 Quash

    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash

    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM90 Substitute
    TM91 Flash Cannon

    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 Waterfall

    *Repeated from level up
    **Same as Frustration

    RM: 15
    Total TM moves: 26
    TM flavors (open)
    Other than the standard moves that every fully evolved Pokemon have, we are left with Rain Dance, Smack Down, Fire STAB, Thief, Fling, WoW, Flash Cannon, Flash Cannon and Water STAB. I chose to keep Rain Dance and not Sunny Day because Sunny Day conveys a cheerful mood, so Rain Dance seems like a more gloomy weather for Volkraken to be in. Smack Down, Thief, and Fling because it has tentacles, and tentacles are used for smacking, and flinging stuff, and are useful in stealing stuff. Fire and Water STAB are for obvious reasons. Flash and Flash Cannon because it is luminescent. WoW because it is in the theme of being eerie.

    Inheritance: passing it on
    Egg moves (open)
    Egg Group: Amorphous and Water 2

    Baton Pass
    Destiny Bond
    Refresh

    Tickle
    Screech
    Whirlpool

    RM: 3
    Total egg moves: 6
    Egg move flavors (open)
    Amorphous contains a lot of soft-body organisms like Magcargo, Gastrodon, Jellicent etc, so Volkraken is a natural fit. Amorphous is also filled with Ghosts, which again adds to the spooky theme. Water 1 usually doesn't contain Water types that live in the sea, so Water 2 is better thematically, especially that its relatives, Malamar and Octillery are also in the Water 2 group.

    First we have the 3 moves with competitive value. Baton Pass because squids move fast, and definitely have enough tentacles to pass batons. Destiny Bond because even if the Kraken dies, the lives it took do not come back to life Refresh because molluscs are capable of moulting = shed skin (cure status).

    Then for the competitively worthless moves, Tickle because it has tentacles. Screech and Whirlpool because that's what the Kraken does.

    And again, giving it any Fire based egg moves gives newly bred ones an unfair advantage since they already have the art of arson, so no Fire egg moves at all.

    The Legacy: life of a legend
    Summary (open)
    RM:25
    Total Moves: 48

    List of competitively viable moves:
    Baton Pass
    Clear Smog
    Destiny Bond
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Flash Cannon
    Hidden Power
    Hydro Pump
    Lava Plume
    Memento
    Power Gem
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Refresh
    Rest
    Scald
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Surf
    Toxic
    Competitive (and a bit of flavor) justification (open)
    Bold for inclusions
    Underline for exclusions

    Coverage: When I mention Hydro Pump in the following section, I'm using it interchangeably with Fire Blast.
    Power Gem: Flying types, notably Dragonite, Gyarados and Zapdos. Lum DDnite and defensive Gyara gets a free DD against it otherwise. We don't want that to happen because it suddenly makes Volkraken a burden to the core as a set up bait. While Zapdos doesn't pose as great a threat since neutral Hydro Pump hits hard too, but if said move misses, and Zapdos somehow manages to kill Volkraken, then Latias and Lucario are in big trouble.
    Flash Cannon: Mainly given as a more reliable move to kill Fairies with, since many Fairies are either capable of setting up SDef boosts, or carrying coverage moves. A Hydro Pump miss is a no-go in such cases.

    Overheat: As much as it fits flavorwise in that water can overheat, I left it out from the move set because Analytic boosted Hydro Pump followed by Overheat allows us to kill Latias with 2 min rolls, which it is not supposed to beat.


    Sludge Wave: My idea of Volkraken is that it infernalize at its final evolution stage, so it loses its affinity for poison for fire. Flash Cannon already provides similar coverage, but Sludge Wave also provides too good coverage, notably the ones on Latias and Water types. Coming from a huge SAtk, it achieves the same feat as Overheat, considering it has the about same BP as a resisted Overheat.

    Aura Sphere: Unlike Sludge Wave, neutral Aura Sphere weaker than resisted Hydro Pump. But not dissimilar to Sludge Wave, it giving it a more reliable move against Keldeo and minimises the role of Latias as a partner. For that reason, note how the 2 coverage moves I actually gave it are both resisted by Keldeo.
    Utility:
    Status recovery: Refresh's only real use is against Aegislash, allowing it to handle its Sub-Toxic set more effectively. The blobs are in no way affected because they are still capable of wearing Volkraken down with repeated Seismic Tosses while Volkraken doesn't hit hard enough in return since it doesn't get an Analytic boost against them. Heal Bell however, is a very non-specific move, and doesn't specifically deal with just Aegislash, which encourages uses outside the core.

    Suicide moves: Vampires sucks the lives out of the living, i.e. Memento cutting offenses. Vampires don't sacrifice themselves to save lives, so Healing Wish makes little sense. Besides, giving Volkraken Healing Wish encourages the use of Latios over Latias. Destiny Bond is also useful in the case that obscure moveset are used for lure Volkraken so at least it still takes down what it needs to remove.

    Scouting moves: The general idea of Volkraken is something that punishes switches. Analytic is not the only way of doing that. Scouting move also punishes switches by giving its user the momentum. U-turn hits some of its would-be counters like Latias surprisingly hard so Baton Pass is preferred. The ability to pass a sub to Lucario is just the cherry on the cake.

    Stealth Rock: While Stealth Rock is really sweet for the core to be self sufficient. I'd imagine any Volkraken player would rather makes use of a free turn to wreck a switch in than to set up hazards. It is better left for something else.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  6. Ramplestilskin

    Ramplestilskin

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    Yeah, that's right, I will edit this soon. I don't really understand why he didn't tell me that, also I chose this move because it was in one submission already done(obviously already edited now), and it is an attack that squids(body style 10, pokemon with tentacles) usually know. I didn't realize it could become anti-concept.
    ginganinja, may be the lack of explanation in my movepool submission make it uneligible, and that's why you said nothing? To say the truth, I couldn't bring myself to explain it, because it took me a long time to elaborate and I wanted to make a break. I am still waiting for your answer : is Pin missile allowed on the movepool ? It is a RM not mentioned in the OP, and makes flavor because of the spikes on its tentacle (I suppressed vacuum wave because I finally understood what it was, namely a wave created by punch, which a squid doesn't have). There also is the problem of Mean look+Baton pass I want you to solve. My work is still in progress, but I would appreciate some feedback.
    -Submission EDITED-

    escarlata, as I mentioned, pin missile is a RM​
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  7. escarlata

    escarlata

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    Oh shucks totally forgot that Pin Missile is useful on Heracross now. The last time I remembered seeing it was on Gen 1 Jolteon .-. Well, thanks for reminding me, I'm changing mine to either Spike Cannon or Fury Attacks.

    EDIT: Anyways when reading through the other suggestions I realised Deck Knight included a egg move combination legality chart. Just a reminder that with gen VI breeding mechanics, every egg move is legal with each other so I think that portion is better off excluded because it is misleading.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  8. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Not entirely sure why you keep referring to this but given that Baton Pass doesn't carry Mean Look's effect and hasn't for the last (I think) two generations I don't think that's a problem worth getting worked up about

    ----

    So as far as my own opinions are concerned, most of the movepools seem to have a mostly similar structure. All of them have Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald, at least thus far, and consequently most of them satisfy any minimum standard of competitive inclusion. Generally speaking, it's a good idea to differentiate your movepool in some way from every single other entry and then draw as much attention to it as possible (speaking of course as a voter who is looking for differences between broadly similar movepools; I am certain that someone who has actually won a movepool poll will be able to give advice from that angle). In the past this was done by including a particular combination of moves that no other movepool had, or indeed an illegality that no other movepool had courtesy of egg moves (which is no longer possible, of course). So yes, I am predicting that this movepool round will be decided by the odds and ends add-ons, in addition to the notoriously unpredictable flavour. For example, Qwilphish's movepool is currently the only (legal) one that has Pain Split but not Substitute. Which means that I personally won't be voting for that one, but I'm sure it will tickle somebody's fancy.

    In trying to think of advice to give that is unique to a large number of very diverse movepools, I tried to rank them based on how I would personally vote if all were put up for PBV vote.

    Salt the Flesh
    jas61292
    The Pizza Man

    escarlata
    Korski
    Toebag
    The Reptile

    Ramplestiltskin
    Deck Knight
    Dragonblaze052

    Kappaten
    V4LOVER
    Qwilphish
    EpicUmbreon29


    It's slightly hard to explain why this was weighted the way it was, as it comes down to a lot of conflicting factors like lack of Lava Plume/Overheat/Substitute/Swagger, subjectively troublesome flavour, and indeed the presentation itself, which of course was slightly lacking in the WIP cases. Oh, and also the fact that one or two movepools are presently illegal was not taken into account; I'm assuming that they will be made legal at some point through a non-contentious means.

    Some specific comments are below:

    --------

    VAGUE AND UNHELPFUL FEEDBACK INCOMING (note that I may not repeat advice to different people so do read all of these if you want)

    EpicUmbreon29: Your submission is still illegal based on too many RMs and certain illegal moves thrown in. Besides that, I'm having difficulty looking past the lack of Flamethrower and Surf, which I cannot quite see a reason for. You may want to try to justify that.

    Salt the Flesh: Your Overheat calculation seems somewhat bizarre, simply because two turns of Fire Blast do more damage than two turns of Overheat regardless; I'm sure there are solid competitive reasons for lacking Overheat but your calculation hasn't justified that, so I would advise that you elaborate a little more on that section. That aside, I don't have any other competitive quibbles and your flavour is well thought-out.

    V4LOVER: You've included just about every offensive option available, yet Return is for some reason absent from your TM list, which I presume is an oversight. Your flavour is enjoyably different, and you focus a bit on it, but you haven't really provided a sort of competitive vision for your movepool - it reads like a set of lists generated purely by looking at Volkraken. I'd advise implementing something like this, similar to jas, Deck, Korski, etc. Also maybe consider re-adding Swagger since it's terribly bad flavour to not have it.

    jas61292: Man I really can't agree with you on only putting generic flavour moves in, that takes so much of the fun out of the movepool... yours is one of only two movepools with Poison Jab though, so I guess that's a plus. Also Octazooka. And Inferno. This makes it all the more annoying that I have no problem with any of your competitive choices, though I'm slightly disappointed that Baton Pass isn't an option. Also put Leech Life in please, or Absorb or something - if you did it would be my ideal movepool, really. Impeccably presented as always.

    Deck Knight: Please get rid of the empty lines between moves; it's making your movepool next to impossible to read, and looks slightly sloppy as well (like you accidently copied and pasted from a site of some kind). As with jas I'm not keen on the ultra-generic Fire+Water level up movepool (I know you were going for the octopus motif but it still feels unimaginative), and again a reminder that egg legalities are somewhat irrelevant. Note that Choice Specs Modest Analytic-boosted Psybeam can OHKO standard Keldeo, so you might want to think twice about including it. Oh and note that Swagger is still considered an RM for this CAP and consequently you are 1 RM over the limit (I count 30 total).
    EDIT: ginganinja said Psybeam is ok over IRC so ignore that

    Dragonblaze052: As above, I'm slightly dubious about movepools including Psybeam. The flavour is nice but nothing special, and again I disagree with making Volkraken just another blended cephalopod Pokemon for its flavour since there are significant features to the Vampire Squid that make it stand out, or even the Nosferatu angle in general. You're lacking Double Team and Swagger, which are found on every ordinary Pokemon. As with Salt the Flesh, it would be nice if you could flesh out objections to Overheat beyond "wow too much" when the same can be said for Fire Blast in your Latios example.
    EDIT: ginganinja said Psybeam is ok over IRC so ignore that

    Kappaten: I'll suspend judgement on flavour until after you've had a chance to give reasoning. Personally I'm not fond of your over-reliance on Poison-type or ink-based moves for flavour. Also be sure to justify the lack of Lava Plume since that's turning me off your movepool at present. 8 egg moves is also rather a lot for a 6th gen Pokemon.

    Qwilphish: Not fond of Substitute > Pain Split, not fond of the lack of Memento, not fond of the movepool flavour, but yours does definitely have some unquestionably unique points that serve to set it apart from all the others. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost all of them, but I applaud your individual submission.

    Darth Missingno.: Where did your movepool go? I'm not going mad am I

    Korski: Yours has almost the opposite problem to jas - I'm partial to your movepool flavour (not quite as much as Salt the Flesh or The Pizza Man but still good egg) but I'm not convinced by some of your competitive exclusions, namely the lack of Lava Plume and Overheat. That's not to say that this ruins your movepool - the comparison with jas was deliberate, in that any quibbles I have are tolerable, and that you have justified the lack of the aforementioned moves adequately - I agree that their inclusion might impinge on the "two sets only" ideal that you are striving for. It's not my favourite for the lack of those moves, but it's competitively sound and compellingly presented. I'd like to see some complementary flavour to the vampire angle in addition to Leech Life, such as Absorb or Bite.

    Toebag: As has been said before, I'm not particularly convinced by the arguments for the exclusion of Overheat based on calculations involving the Lati twins since Overheat and Fire Blast do more or less the same thing. I certainly can't see how Overheat could kill them in fewer hits than Fire Blast given the lower Base Power over two turns (so I'd like to see more calculations supporting this position). I'm also not fond of the exclusion of Lava Plume. Again the flavour pool is slightly generic but moves like Spike Cannon and Captivate (I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning but hey) make it unique, which is good.

    Ramplestilskin: Do remember to capitalise the second word of a move's name, as at present you have not done so. Also try to avoid overusing font effects; they make your movepool look a bit scruffy and unprofessional. 6 RMs in the egg move pool seems clustered and is wholly unnecessary; maybe move some of them to the level-up pool and add some general flavour moves to balance it out. I see that your movepool is the only one with Aromatherapy, though whether or not you want to highlight that is up to you.

    The Pizza Man: As with the above, try not to overuse fonts; a simple asterisk will suffice in many cases. Also remember to fix any obvious spelling mistakes - making your movepool look presentable goes a long way. I like your movepool flavour, I like most of your competitive choices, and in all honesty if this only included Lava Plume it would probably be my favourite. Remember to justify why you don't have Lava Plume if and when you write up your full-movepool competitive explanation.

    The Reptile: You have 28 level-up moves. That's three more than the Pokemon in-game with the most level-up moves, and certainly a lot more than most XY Pokemon. I'd recommend culling this a little. Again, I'm not fond of the whole Poison flavour angle, but to answer your question I do believe that ginga allowed physical coverage options for flavour (hopefully I didn't misunderstand) and Gunk Shot does nowt to just about every fairy around so I'm pretty sure it's ok. Egg moves seem fine. Competitively speaking I'm not keen on the lack of Lava Plume, so make sure to justify that.

    escarlata: 8 total egg moves seems excessive. Your movepool flavour seems generic, but it's very well thought-out, so that's a positive. Competitively speaking, you should write a bit more describing competitive inclusions and exclusions as this seems a little thin on the ground at the moment.

    ----------------

    And finally, some little things that I would like to see in these movepools:

    - Play up the vampire angle. Yes, I know that "Volkraken" does not really reference the occult, but even so, it seems weird to have an artwork where a prominent feature is, well, the creepy pattern, and no acknowledgement of this in either name or movepool. It's not even a question of obscure biological knowledge (though I will admit I am a sucker for easter eggs like that); it's very simply a way of addressing this side of the Pokemon's flavour and perhaps more importantly differentiating Volkraken from similar Pokemon such as Octillery and Malamar. Yes, it's fine to take inspiration from various Pokemon, but some of the movepools I have seen don't seem to give Volkraken any identity other than the generic cephalopod treatment. I say "vampire angle" as opposed to "vampire squid angle" because the vampire is really the interesting bit, and indeed is not a difficult concept to grasp for the average Pokemon player.

    - Do remember to include competitive justification, but perhaps more than that, don't just stick everything in hide tags. If there is some important competitive or flavour aspect to highlight, which you are particularly proud of or which gives your movepool a unique slant, add some sentences before the hide tag directing us to it and inviting us to see your elaboration. It's a lot easier to give feedback if your information is a) actually there and b) easily accessible.

    - Do remember that Toxic, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Protect, Frustration, Return, Double Team, Facade, Rest, Attract, Round, Giga Impact, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Substitute, and Confide are all found on every normal Pokemon and more importantly that lacking any one of them is grounds for your movepool's disqualification (at least in theory - the rules have sort of gone up in smoke this time around). Hence, you would be well advised to justify any exclusion on competitive grounds, particularly as it pertains to Substitute and Swagger.

    - As far as Type-Move and Move-Move combinations go, you should be sure to pay attention to them. While Solar Beam, Flame Charge, Blizzard, and Ice Beam are all illegal, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Incinerate, Overheat, Sunny Day, Will-O-Wisp, Rain Dance, Scald, and Surf are all found on pretty much all Fire- or Water-type Pokemon and are legal (though you may have legitimate competitive concerns in some cases, of course). The Move-Move charts don't really say anything apart from the above.

    ---------

    right ok then that's all for now

    EDIT: Oh right I forgot just to reiterate that the movepool builder is a thing and helpful if you want to count RMs or just have all the resources available in one place
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  9. Tahu

    Tahu

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    381
    WIP

    RMs in Bold

    Level-up (open)

    01-Ember
    01-Wrap
    07-Leech Life
    13-Smokescreen
    18-Bubblebeam
    22-Mist
    25-Scary Face
    29-Octazooka
    33-Clear Smog
    37-Flame Burst
    41-Confuse Ray
    44-Scald
    48-Lava Plume
    52-Block
    56-Power Gem
    61-Hydro Pump
    65-Overheat
    70-Memento
    RMs-7
    Moves-18

    TM (open)

    TM06-Toxic
    TM09-Venoshock
    TM10-Hidden Power
    TM15-Hyper Beam
    TM17-Protect
    TM18-Rain Dance
    TM21-Frustration
    TM27-Return
    TM32-Double Team
    TM33-Reflect
    TM34-Sludge Wave
    TM35-Flamethrower
    TM38-Fire Blast
    TM41-Torment
    TM42-Facade
    TM44-Rest
    TM45-Attract
    TM48-Round
    TM50-Overheat
    TM55-Scald
    TM59-Incinerate
    TM60-Quash
    TM61-Will-O-Wisp
    TM68-Giga Impact
    TM70-Flash
    TM80-Rock Slide
    TM87-Swagger
    TM88-Sleep Talk
    TM90-Substitute
    TM91-Flash Cannon
    TM96-Nature Power
    TM100-Confide
    HM03-Surf
    HM05-Waterfall
    RMs-23
    Moves-

    Egg (Water 1/Water 2) (open)

    Baton Pass
    Tickle
    Camouflage
    Stealth Rock
    RMs-2
    Moves-4

    Total moves-54
    Total RMs-29

    Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
  10. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    243
    Final Submission
    Thank you so much for the feedback, Bugmaniacbob. I have made a few of the changes you have suggested and I will likely make a few more before I finalize my movepool.

    23 RMs (3/5/15)
    53 total (21/6/27) (Scald is in two lists, but only counts once.)

    All Moves (Alphabetical and by Type) (open)

    Water: Bubble, Hydro Pump, Octozooka, Scald, Water Gun, Surf

    Fire: Ember, Fire Blast, Flame Burst, Flamethrower, Incinerate, Lava Plume, Will-o-Wisp

    Normal: Attract, Camouflage, Confide, Constrict, Double Team, Facade, Flail, Flash, Frustration, Giga Impact, Heal Bell, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Metronome, Mimic, Nature Power, Protect, Return, Round, Sleep Talk, Smokescreen, Snore, Splash, Substitute, Swagger, Wrap

    Poison: Clear Smog, Sludge, Toxic, Venoshock

    Rock: Ancientpower, Power Gem

    Fighting: Aura Sphere

    Dark: Memento, Quash

    Bug: Leech Life

    Ground: Mud Shot

    Ghost: Confuse Ray

    Psychic: Psybeam, Rest

    Steel: Flash Cannon


    Level Up (open)
    --: Scald*
    --: Smokescreen
    --: Constrict
    --: Bubble
    --: Splash
    5: Leech Life
    8: Water Gun
    10: Flail
    13: Confuse Ray
    17: Ember
    20: Mud Shot
    24: Flame Burst~
    26: Clear Smog*
    30: Mimic
    33: Scald+
    36: Lava Plume*
    39: Sludge
    41: Metronome
    44: Ancientpower
    49: Wrap
    52: Psybeam
    57: Octazooka

    Egg Moves (Amorphous and Water 3) (open)
    Aura Sphere*
    Memento*
    Camouflage
    Heal Bell*
    Hydro Pump*
    Power Gem*

    TM/HM (open)
    TM06 Toxic*
    TM09 Venoshock
    TM10 Hidden Power*
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect*
    TM21 Frustration*
    TM27 Return~
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower*
    TM38 Fire Blast*
    TM42 Facade*
    TM44 Rest*
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM55 Scald+
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM60 Quash
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp*
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM87 Swagger*
    TM88 Sleep Talk*
    TM90 Substitute*
    TM91 Flash Cannon*
    TM96 Nature Power*
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf*


    Competitive Reasoning (open)

    Nature Power: This attack does no more damage to bulky Dragons than Flash Cannon (33.7 - 40%), less damage than Fire Blast/Hydro Pump (34.7 - 41%) and much less than Sludge Wave (40.3 - 47.6%). Furthermore, it can be Taunted and provides absolutely no coverage when compared to any of the allowed attacking RMs that could take its place instead. Also, the status chance it provides is far less reliable than Scald would provide. This may be a good move, but it in no way goes against our counters any more than anything we already have.
    Low Move Count: This was purposeful as to provide room to add in more moves as time goes on to provide a more thought out and balanced movepool. Since I originally posted this, I have already gone from 16 to 21 RMs. I do intend to expand my movepool further before finalizing it.
    No U-Turn: I feel that this would be too hard of a hit against some of our counters (mainly Latios) when factoring the free switch it provides, essentially negating their status as a counter by putting them at the disadvantage when they switch in. It would (realistically as opposed to some ridiculous physical set) do 28.4 - 33.7% damage on Latios and allow an instant switch to something that can then defeat him with significantly more ease.
    No Overheat: WAAAAY too much damage on a Specs set. It's like Choice Specs Draco Meteor is for Latios, except it has 5 more base SpAtk and an Analytic boost. Speaking of Latios, it would take 71.1 - 83.7% damage from Specs Overheat. Not really a counter after having already done that once already unless it has Roost. It has a significantly higher accuracy than Fire Blast and even after the SpAtk drop it will be hitting for x1.125 base power (x1.46 if Analytic triggers). This, much more-so than any other possible move, neuters many of our counters into one time checks. I feel that this move, due mainly to outright power, would be counterproductive to our concept.
    Aura Sphere: Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados can destroy our core if they come in at any point where Lucario is not already in play and if Mega Gyarados hasn't yet Mega Evolved, it can possibly destroy us even if Lucario IS in play depending on prediction. Hydro Pump still does slightly more to Tyranitar, but still has lower accuracy that could cause the game to be lost due to hax. Aura Sphere provides a reliable answer to both of these theats to the overall core without affecting Blissey and Chansey as counters, doing less damage to them than STABs and only 4HKOing with Choice Specs.


    Flavor (Mostly Incoherent Rambling) (open)

    Egg Groups: I chose Water 3 because it is composed mainly of aquatic invertebrates such as Omanyte (a rather close relative) and Tentacruel. I chose Water 1 because of the general diversity of the Pokemon that occupy it (although there is a clear bias towards amphibious creatures as opposed to deep sea life), as well as the presence of Octillery and Malamar. The other two options I, and clearly several others, considered are Water 2 and Amorphous. I decided against it because almost all Pokemon families in it are at least partially fish, Malamar and Wailord being the only exceptions. As far as Amorphous, I must admit that I was very tempted. It provided several appealing breeding partners (not referring to Gardevoir) and already seems to have a well established theme and flavor that would fit Volkraken wonderfully. I still believe Amorphous would make an excellent choice, but Water 1 and Water 3 simply were too... Fuck it, changing it to Amorphous/Water 3 and moving Octazooka from Egg Moves to Level Up.
    Octopus/Squid based moves: Since the Vampire Squid this is based on is the only specie of its order, I decided to blur the lines to Coleoidea (octopus/squid like creatures without shells) in general. That expands the flavor to ink based attacks (Smokescreen and Octozooka), bio-luminescence based moves (Flash and Confuse Ray), toxin based moves (Toxic and Sludge), mimicry (Mimic and Camouflage) and general moves based on the anatomy of cephalopods (Wrap and Bite). Blurring distinctions between certain animals is a very common occurrence for Pokemon, such as Arbok (a cobra) exhibiting traits of several distinct species of cobra as well as the completely unrelated constrictor snakes while evolving a rattlesnake.
    Vampire based moves: On the advice of a few people, I have decided to highlight any vampire themes in my movepool. There is, of course, Leech Life, Toxic and Venoshock with somewhat obvious flavor. Confide, Swagger, Attract, Mimic and Confuse Ray reflect the vampire's charismatic approach to their prey. Ancientpower reflects the vampire's immortality and probable great age whereas Metronome draws upon the seemingly endless knowledge that may be gained through those many generations. Also, the distinct lack of Sunny Day and Reflect kind of feeds into the aversions of vampires.
    Type Balance: Fire/Water is, at least as I see it, is one of the most conflicting combinations possible. What one type always has, for example, the other never has. This makes choosing whether to allow certain moves difficult to determine. Thankfully, the move bans helped somewhat in this regard, such as with Ice attacks being disallowed. I have (at least for the time being) left out Overheat, Sunny Day and Rain Dance because very rarely are they learned by Volkraken's other type.
    Scald: If you need to ask, you don't really know Volkraken. :/
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  11. escarlata

    escarlata

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    489
    Thanks bugmaniacbob for the feedback. I have a query about flavor which seems to only affect my submission since I am the only one who made assumptions of its preevo. Will such logic be tolerated?
  12. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,305
    No reason why it shouldn't be - plenty of assumptions about the Pokemon's prevo have been made in past movepools. One I remember is the inclusion of Double Hit and Tri Attack in Cyclohm's movepool to represent a transition from two heads to three.
  13. Toebag

    Toebag

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2013
    Messages:
    158
    Thanks bugmaniacbob for taking the time to comment on everyone's submission.

    Following what you said, I changed flavour moves to fit more towards the vampire aspect of it replacing smokescreen and slam with scary face and poison fang.

    Anyway, on to calculations that you asked for;

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-219 (61.5 - 72.5%).
    -2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 93-110 (30.7 - 36.4%).

    Volkraken is slower than Latias so we'll assume it uses roost before that second Overheat. Right now we can see that, in this case that choice locked Overheat loses to Latias.

    I also did calcs for Overheat on Keldeo and Rotom-W;
    Keldeo is 2HKO'd by Overheat, but also by Fire Blast - Overheat is doing nothing Fire Blast can't. Unless it scores a critical hit causing a OHKO, Fire Blast crits stay at a 2HKO.
    Rotom-W cares less about Overheat than Fire Blast.

    So choice specs Overheat isn't actually that overpowered, it deals around 10% more damage than Fire Blast initially. Latias would probably breath a sigh of relief knowing it's choice locked into Overheat, since it's easily able to heal off the damage.

    As for my LO Overheat+U-turn calcs from my previous post, I failed to consider Roost, meaning Latias would probably on around 60% health when Volk switches to whoever.

    Although I will say I'm quite surprised that an uninvested, detrimentally natured U-turn is doing 30-35% off a 45 attack (with Life Orb, yes). But, it really is a nice way to bring Lucario in on anything that's faster that Volk.

    Thanks for prompting me to investigate further - based on this I will be re-adding Overheat and marking my submission as final.

    A quick note about Lava Plume as well, I excluded it because of the already many ways Volkraken can inflict burn on its opponents, Scald and Will-O-Wisp most reliably, but also Flamethrower and Fire Blast have a small chance to cause burn.
    I also can't think of any competitively viable pokemon where lava plume would be more beneficial than Will-O-Wisp/Scald. If it really needs to burn something WoW would be used before Scald/Lava Plume. However, if there has been an oversight on my behalf and that Lava Plume provides something not already covered in a competitive sense then I would probably include it.
    So while I had no reason to exclude Lava Plume, I also had no reason to include it. Furthermore, I purposely don't want too many fire or water moves on my submission because I feel that due to the extremely conflicting nature of those types, Volkraken would have restricted access the moves on most typical fire or water pokemon.

    EDIT: grammar business.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  14. Hoping4megasceptile

    Hoping4megasceptile

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Messages:
    57
    Bold=RM
    Italics=repeated/outclassed rm
    level up (open)
    0-overheatHS
    0-wrap
    0-bubble
    0-camouflage
    0-ember
    7-smokescreen
    10-leech life
    14-incinerate
    19-octozooka
    25-scary face
    32-water pulse
    35-will-o-wisp
    39-confuse ray
    44-aqua ring
    50-lava plume
    57-scald
    60-hydro pump
    64-memento
    18 moves
    6 RM's


    tm/hm (open)
    TM06 toxic
    TM10 hidden power
    TM15 hyper beam
    TM17 protect
    TM21 frustration
    TM27 return
    TM32 double team
    TM33 reflect
    TM34 sludge wave
    TM35 flamethrower
    TM38 fire blast
    TM41 torment
    TM44 rest
    TM45 attract
    TM46 thief
    TM48 round
    TM50 overheat
    TM55 scald
    TM56 fling
    TM59 incinerate
    TM61 will-o-wisp
    TM63 embargo
    TM66 payback
    TM70 flash
    TM87 swagger
    TM88 sleep talk
    TM89 u-turn
    TM90 substitute
    TM91 flash cannon
    TM100 confide
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 waterfall
    26 moves
    16 RM's


    breeding water 1 and 2 (open)
    Psybeam: Mantine, octillery, masquerain, Seaking
    Aqua jet: blastoise, clawitzer, golduck, Kabutops, Dragonite, azumarrill, crawdaunt, empoleon, floatzel, Carracosta, alamomola, basculin
    Aura sphere: blastoise, clawitzer
    Clear smog: golduck, kingdra, gastrodon, wailord
    Power gem: corsola
    Sludge: swampert, gastrodon
    Destiny Bond: Malamar, Qwilfish, Sharpedo

    7 moves
    5 RM's


    Total
    51 moves
    27 RM's

    Will edit in reasoning later, but I've been working on this all day. If someone has any thing that is wrong, please tell me.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  15. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,810
    Giving everyone roughly a 48 Hour Deadline

    This should be enough time for everyone, unless there is an outcry or something. Make sure your submission is titled "Final Submission" otherwise I will not slate it.
  16. P2X7

    P2X7

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    309
    WIP

    Legend (open)

    Bold = RM
    * = Repeated
    + = Equivalent


    Level-Up (open)

    00 Constrict
    00 Leech Life
    00 Leer
    00 Water Gun
    04 Peck
    08 Ember
    12 Bite
    15 Flash *
    17 Wrap
    19 Feint Attack
    23 Scary Face
    26 Aqua Jet
    24 Fire Fang
    30 Scald
    32 Charm
    34 Fire Blast
    38 Hydro Pump
    41 Flatter
    43 Will-O-Wisp
    49 Dive
    53 Heal Bell
    57 Memento

    Flavor reasoning (open)

    I decided to embrace the vampire bit of Volkraken's design full-on, and have thus included a numerous amount of moves that fit flavor wise/moves that fit the underlying Dark-type in its design. Moves that represent the vampire's charisma— Charm and Flatter specifically— have been included for this reason, as have moves that represent the iconic vampire bite, such as Bite, Leech Life, and Fire Fang. Heal Bell also deserves a mention as a slight reference to the vampire's longevity. The level-up movepool also attempts to bring out the aforementioned Dark-type feel, with the inclusion of Dark-type attacks including Bite, Feint Attack, Flatter, and Memento. Aside from all this, basic moves that are fairly easy for a cephalopod to perform, such as Constrict, Peck, and Wrap have been added, and obligatory STAB moves ranging from Water Gun and Ember to Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are included as well, with Scald making a logical and almost mandatory appearance in the movepool. A viewer might notice that this submission has a distinct lack of ink-based moves, but this is because vampire squids do not actually utilize ink, instead relying on bioluminescence, and the simple light-based move Flash is a nice representation of this. The rest of the moves are present for varying reasons: Leer and Scary Face showcase Volkraken's false face; and Dive and Aqua Jet are examples of Volkraken's swimming abilities.


    Competitive reasoning (open)

    Quite a few of the moves Volkraken will likely be using are present here, such as Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Scald, and Will-O-Wisp. Memento is a viable option to weaken a foe in order to start a Lucario sweep once Volkraken's job is done. Heal Bell is an important support option, allowing Volkraken to cure its core members of crippling status conditions that would likely put them out of the game otherwise.


    Egg (open)

    (Amorphous / Water 3 groups, 7 moves total, 6 RMs)

    Baton Pass
    Healing Wish
    Power Gem
    Reflect
    Stealth Rock
    Sucker Punch

    Wide Guard

    Flavor reasoning (open)

    Power Gem and Reflect add to the selection of light-based moves available to Volkraken and represent advanced knowledge of Volkraken's innate bioluminescence, allowing it to use light as a weapon or as a method of protection. Sucker Punch builds off of the Dark-type vibe Volkraken has while also suggesting a method of hunting prey. Wide Guard shouldn't technically be that hard for a squid to use given the length of its tentacles.


    Competitive reasoning (open)

    Baton Pass allows Volkraken to pivot out, granting it the ability to safely bring in Lucario or Latias, and can alternatively be used to pass 101 HP Substitutes, which either other member of the core would appreciate. Healing Wish allows Volkraken to give a sweeper (read: Lucario) a second chance once its job is done. Power Gem offers a valuable coverage option. Although the CAP process doesn't care about Doubles, seeing as both Lucario and Latias are weak to common spread moves, Wide Guard provides a way for Volkraken to support its fellow core members by blocking said spread moves. Stealth Rock allows Volkraken to support its core members by widening the amount of OHKOes/2HKOes Lucario can achieve, while its bulk and ability to force switches allows it to easily reset the hazard after Latias has cleared the field with Defog.


    TM (open)

    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM21 Frustration +
    TM27 Return +
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast *
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM55 Scald *
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM60 Quash
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp *
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash *
    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM90 Substitute
    TM91 Flash Cannon
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 Waterfall

    Flavor reasoning (open)

    A lot of commonly seen moves for Fire- and Water-types are included here, such as Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Surf, Will-O-Wisp, Incinerate, and Waterfall. Flash Cannon is another way for Volkraken to weaponize its bioluminescence. Quash isn't too hard to imagine Volkraken using, as a being enveloped by a squid tends to slow things down.


    Competitive reasoning (open)

    The only things really of note here are Flamethrower and Overheat, which provide alternate Fire-type STAB options, Surf, which could be used as a Water STAB, Flash Cannon, which provides a way to beat Fairy-types, and Hidden Power.



    Summary (open)

    51 moves total
    29 RMs
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  17. Yoshuriken

    Yoshuriken

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    63
    WIP-will finish tomorrow.

    I discuss the sections based on flavor mostly, and then discuss the competitive implications at the end, because it doesn't really matter where a competitive move goes.

    Key:
    Bold=RM
    Italics=Outclassed or Equivalent or Repeated

    Level Up Moves (open)

    1-Bubble
    1-Ember
    1-Leech Life
    1-Wrap
    7-Smokescreen
    9-Scary Face
    12-Octazooka
    16-Bite
    20-Confuse Ray
    25-Will-O-Wisp
    30-Dive
    34-Fire Fang
    42-Scald
    47-Mean Look
    53-Memento
    57-Lava Plume
    63-Hydro Pump
    67-Inferno


    Level Up justification (open)

    I wanted to emphasize the vampire aspect of Volkraken as much as possible. I also wanted to make sure the fire aspect did not go unnoticed. The level 1 moves of Ember, Bubble, Leech Life, and Wrap, correspond to different parts of Volkraken: Fire, Water, Vampire, and Squid. Bite, Fire Fang, Confuse Ray, and Memento also contribute to the vampire nature of Volkraken. Confuse Ray in particular I really like because it represents vampires' ability to mesmerize so well. Will-O-Wisp is a fire move that gets its name from spirits, so it fits the flavor quite well and thus is put into the level up moves. Dive and Hydro Pump are in for water flavor, especially deep-sea water. Mean Look and Scary Face are pretty obvious if you look at Volkraken. Scald is just too obvious for a fire/water 'mon. Lava Plume is a fire move I wanted Volkraken to have access to, and I think it goes great in the level up pool because of deep-sea volcanic vents, which Volkraken even references with its name. Finally, I made the capstone move Inferno because it is both a fire type move and very hellish, making it perfect to emphasize the occult nature of Volkraken.


    TMs (open)

    6-Toxic
    10-Hidden Power
    11-Sunny Day
    15-Hyper Beam
    17-Protect
    18-Rain Dance
    21-Frustration
    23-Smack Down
    27-Return
    32-Double Team
    33-Reflect
    34-Sludge Wave
    35-Flamethrower
    38-Fire Blast
    42-Facade
    44-Rest
    45-Attract
    46-Thief
    48-Round
    50-Overheat
    55-Scald
    59-Incinerate
    60-Quash
    61-Will-O-Wisp
    63-Embargo
    68-Giga Impact
    70-Flash
    85-Dream Eater
    87-Swagger
    88-Sleep Talk
    90-Substitute
    91-Flash Cannon
    100-Confide
    HM03-Surf
    HM05-Waterfall


    TM justification (open)

    Moves I wanted to get into the movepool but were perhaps less flavorful, or were simply ubiquitous among fire or water types, went here. Volkraken in an unusual pokemon, so I wanted him to have an unusual movepool flavor-wise, which is why I was fine with the lack of "normal" water/fire moves in the level up section. These include Surf, Overheat, Fire Blast, and Flamethrower. Flash Cannon and Flash reference the bio-luminescence of Volkraken. I also have a bunch of flavor moves that make mention to the vampire-ness again. These include Thief, Quash, Embargo, and Dream Eater. Dream Eater may seem odd at first, but it is one of the draining moves, and a psychic one at that. Also, many ghosts learn it, so I think it fits the vampire theme quite nicely. A couple of moves that are here for their competitive merit more than anything are Reflect and Sludge Wave. I also doubled Scald and Will-o-Wisp because both are very ubiquitous and flavorful moves.


    Egg Groups: Water 1, Amorphous
    Egg moves (open)

    Spite-Banette, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Crawdaunt, Drifblim, Dusknoir, Feraligatr, Gengar, Jellicent, Mismagius, Weezing
    Baton Pass-Drifblim, Gorebyss, Huntail
    Whirlpool-Azumarill, Bibarel, Blastoise, Crawdaunt, Dewgong, Dragonite, Empoleon, Feraligatr, Floatzel, West Gastrodon, Golduck, Gorebyss, Huntail, Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Mantine, Milotic, Octillery, Omastar, Pelipper, Politoed, Poliwrath, Quagsire, Slowbro, Slowking, Swampert, Walrein
    Confusion-Chimeco, Gallade, Gardevior, Golduck, Gorebyss, Slowbro, Slowking
    Power Gem-Mismagius, Slowking


    Egg move justification (open)

    I put Power Gem and Baton Pass here because they aren't flavorful enough to warrant a spot in the level up moves, but also aren't TMs. The other moves are all flavor. Spite is a flavor move I just had to have; I think it works so well. Confusion is another move that I think represents mesmerizing very well. Finally, Whirlpool fits with the idea of Volkraken trapping an opponent before he swoops in for the kill, perhaps by sucking the life out of it.


    Competitive justifiation and summary (open)

    Total RMs: 25
    Flamethrower
    Fire Blast
    Lava Plume
    Overheat
    Hydro Pump
    Surf
    Scald

    Power Gem
    Sludge Wave
    Flash Cannon
    Hidden Power

    Baton Pass
    Memento
    Substitute
    Reflect
    Will-O-Wisp
    Toxic

    Protect
    Rain Dance

    Waterfall
    Sleep Talk
    Rest
    Facade
    Return
    Frustration
    Fire Fang

    Volkraken's job is to nuke the problematic pokemon, or nuke the switch. The STABs allow him to choose between a variety of options that give him flexibility with power, accuracy, and utility. Overheat nukes like nothing else at the cost of losing the most momentum, and is thus justified. The rest don't really need explanation.
    I gave it the coverage it needs to have some options without getting a rainbow. Power Gem hits Dragonite, Charizard, Volcarona, and Gyarados, all pokemon that can give the core trouble otherwise. Flash Cannon hits the fairies more reliably, as does Sludge Wave which pretty much outclasses it for this concept. It is however contain more risk and reward than Flash Cannon, so if predicted could spell doom for Volkraken. Hidden Power lets Volkraken have weak surprise coverage of any type at the cost of a moveslot that could have better options.
    The support movepool also has good options for pivoting to the other core members, like Baton Pass, Reflect, and Memento. Substitute also works well with Baton Pass to SubPass to Luke, but takes up two moveslots. Will-O-Wisp is important for crippling physical attackers, but doesn't allow us to nuke the switch. Toxic is mandatory, and Protect has little value on a mon with no healing. Finally, Rain Dance (and also Sunny Day) can boost STABs to hyoog levels, but take a moveslot and turn which probably aren't worth it in the core.
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  18. Final Submission

    VGMs RMs are marked with asterisks.
    Level (open)
    1 - Aqua Jet*
    1 - Flash
    5 - Leer
    9 - Ember
    13 - Dive
    17 - Confuse Ray
    21 - Night Shade*
    24 - Fire Spin
    27 - Scald*
    30 - Will-O-Wisp*
    36 - Scary Face
    42 - Flame Burst*
    48 - Hydro Pump*
    54 - Memento*
    60 - Mean Look
    66 - Inferno
    TM/HM (open)
    TM06 - Toxic*
    TM10 - Hidden Power*
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM17 - Protect*
    TM20 - Safeguard
    TM21 - Frustration*
    TM27 - Return*
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM33 - Reflect*
    TM34 - Sludge Wave*
    TM35 - Flamethrower*
    TM38 - Fire Blast*
    TM41 - Torment
    TM42 - Facade*
    TM44 - Rest*
    TM45 - Attract
    TM46 - Thief
    TM48 - Round
    TM50 - Overheat*
    TM55 - Scald*
    TM59 - Incinerate
    TM61 - Will-O-Wisp*
    TM63 - Embargo
    TM66 - Payback*
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM70 - Flash
    TM77 - Psych Up
    TM87 - Swagger*
    TM88 - Sleep Talk*
    TM89 - U-turn*
    TM90 - Substitute*
    TM100 - Confide
    HM03 - Surf*
    Egg (Water 1 and Amorphous) (open)
    Brine
    Constrict
    Clear Smog*
    Destiny Bond*
    Feint Attack
    Heal Bell*
    Power Gem*
    Stealth Rock*
    Summary (open)
    RMs: 28 + 2
    Aqua Jet
    Clear Smog
    Destiny Bond
    Facade
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Frustration
    Heal Bell
    Hidden Power
    Hydro Pump
    Memento
    Night Shade
    Overheat
    Payback
    Power Gem
    Protect
    Reflect
    Rest
    Scald (appears twice)
    Sleep Talk
    Sludge Wave
    Stealth Rock
    Substitute
    Surf
    Swagger
    Toxic
    U-turn
    Will-O-Wisp (appears twice)

    Flame Burst (outclassed by Flamethrower)
    Return (= Frustration)

    Non-RMs: 24
    Attract
    Brine
    Confide
    Confuse Ray
    Constrict
    Dive
    Double Team
    Embargo
    Ember
    Feint Attack
    Fire Spin
    Flash (appears twice)
    Giga Impact
    Hyper Beam
    Incinerate
    Inferno
    Leer
    Mean Look
    Psych Up
    Round
    Safeguard
    Scary Face
    Thief
    Torment

    Total Moves: 54
    Explanation (open)
    Just a quick explanation for now; I'll try to improve it before the deadline. I gave Volkraken a diverse set of support options because I sympathize with alexwolf's arguments about those, some of which can be found just below this post. Things like Heal Bell and Memento are particularly interesting to me, due to their obvious value to a setup sweeper like Lucario. I think that Volkraken will be more useful to its core if other sets aside from pure attacking ones are viable, and I tried to ensure that this would be the case. As for attacking options, the most controversial one here is Sludge Wave, which I consider to be important in order to beat Azumarill. I'm aware of the concerns about including Sludge Wave, but I believe that it is important that Volkraken stop as many Fairies as possible, and that coverage against Azumarill is needed in order to do this. Power Gem is a neat coverage option for things like Charizard Y, and rounds out an attacking set with the two STABs and Sludge Wave. Aura Sphere, Psychic, and Flash Cannon don't seem particularly useful to me, and I dropped Lava Plume after reading DetroitLolcat's post about it.

    Flavour: The level-up list follows a simple pattern that repeats itself after every four moves. The pattern is: Water STAB (Aqua Jet, Dive, Scald, Hydro Pump), non-attack move that affects the opponent (Flash, Confuse Ray, WOW, Memento), moves involving eyes (Leer, Night Shade, Scary Face, Mean Look), Fire STAB (Ember, Fire Spin, Flame Burst, Inferno). "Moves involving eyes" is a category because of Volkraken's prominent fake ones, and the sinister flavour that such moves provide. Night Shade is included because it's a solid flavour move on its own, and its premise is that it causes the opponent to see an illusion. Close enough to "involving eyes" for me. Water STAB was intentionally placed at the beginning of the order, and Fire at the end, in order to emphasize the Water typing more, since it's the more obvious type in Volkraken's design. I think it's appropriate that almost every time Volkraken gets a Fire attack, it gets a stronger Water attack shortly after. The level numbers at which moves are learned follow a modified version of Octillery's pattern. It's entirely coincidental that it ended up with a move at level 13, and Inferno at level 66, but these are coincidences about which I'm quite happy. I might elaborate on specific move choices later, but most reasons should be fairly obvious.

    Flavour Omissions: No Smokescreen/Octazooka because according to my minimal research on the vampire squid, it doesn't produce ink. Not much physical flavour because it doesn't look physically strong, its Attack stat seems to confirm this, and its tentacles aren't exactly impressive-looking (though Constrict has snuck in as an egg move). I wouldn't mind fitting a little more direct vampire flavour in here somehow, but I'm okay with not having it because the vampire squid doesn't actually behave like a vampire as far as I know, and the "vampire" part of Volkraken's appearance is clearly just a dummy. I think the Dark/Ghost flavour, along with moves like Mean Look and Scary Face, already make it clear that you don't want to run into this mon in a dark castle.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2014
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I see a lot of people preffering Baton Pass over U-turn, which is good, as U-turn makes Latios and Latios really easy to wear down, in addition to their glaring Pursuit weakness.

    What i don't see, is submissions including Heal Bell / Aromatherapy and Stealth Rock. And i really wonder why... After Will-O-Wisp (a given on any Fire-type) and Baton Pass / U-turn, Heal Bell / Aromatherapy and Stealth Rock are the two most important support options for Volkraken, and both options that would greatly help Lucario and Latias. Even though three of the moves on the Leftovers set would probably be dual STABs and a pivoting move (U-turn / Baton Pass), the last slot can have any of WoW, Stealth Rock, or Heal Bell, and i want to know why those people that didn't include said moves (SR and Heal Bell / Aromatherapy) want to limit the versatility of the most defensive set that the CAP would run so much.

    And before anyone says that Clear Smog, Destiny Bond, and Memento are all viable support options that the CAP can use on its last moveslot other than WoW to have some kind of versatility, let me say that while all those moves certainly do have some competitive value, none of them would be useful enough to get anything more than a Set Details mention on Leftovers sets. Clear Smog only helps against Clefable in comparison to WoW, and a few CM boosters that Volkraken shouldn't be dealing with (Keldeo, Latios) anyway. Destiny Bond can't be taken advantage of properly as Volkraken doesn't have the Speed and the frailness needed (see Gengar and Mega Houndoom). Lastly, Memento is ok but nothing special in general, as Memento has only been used as a main option on a set on Pokemon that use Dual Screens sets (Latios, Uxie) or have Prankster (Whimsicott), and the CAP has none of those, which means that Memento would be nothing more than a gimmick option.

    tl;dr let's give to Volkraken a bit more versatility in support options to encourage bulky sets with Leftovers more, instead of AV / Specs / LO sets, all of which are already looking pretty good right now as they have all the tools they need in almost every single submission (STABs, pivot move, Hidden Power / Power Gem / Sludge Wave).

    Also, i would encourage anyone that has Healing Wish in its movepool to remove it as Healing Wish is kinda Latias's niche over Latios, and if we give it to the CAP, Latios will have more chances to replace Latias in our core, as there are hardly any teams in need of dual Healing Wish support.

    As for what are my competitive criteria in choosing submissions, the most important after having all the necessary STAB moves (Hydro Pump, Surf, Scald, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Will-O-Wisp) is having Baton Pass / U-turn, Stealth Rock, and Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, in order of importance. Everything else is really minor, but i also like Clear Smog, Haze, Memento, and Destiny Bond and don't like Healing Wish and Sludge Wave (the latter for messing with some of our checks).
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
    Salt likes this.
  20. Toebag

    Toebag

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    Posting to say I have finalised my submission and beefed up the summary section giving an overview of competitive moves and flavour moves to make it a more manageable read.
  21. Ramplestilskin

    Ramplestilskin

    Joined:
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    Here are some stats I made (Yeah I love Useless Stats), this can someway help people knowing the particularity of each movepool etc. I wanted to make a great speech + a great analysis on this but, hell, I don't have the time and I'm tired. Also, I don't know if I will be able to make my submission a Final one, however I thank bugmaniacbob because he's the only one trying to give us some feedback. I really didn't know Mean Look+Baton Pass didn't work any more, it's not like it's a overpowered strategy. I know there are many things to change in my movepool right now, I'll see if I have the time to change it before the time limit.
    Now the Stats:
    presence of Attacking RMs (open)
    :
    In all movepool : Fire blast/Hydro Pump/Scald/Flamethrower/Surf
    Flash Cannon : 15 (Kappaten, Qwilphish, The Reptile)
    Power Gem : 15(Deck Knight, Qwilphish, The Reptile)
    Clear Smog : 14(Korski, The Reptile, P2X7, Yoshuriken)
    Lava Plume :14 (Kappaten, Korski, Toebag, P2X7)
    Overheat : 14 (Salt the Flesh, Dragonblaze052, Ramplestilskin, escarlata)
    Waterfall : 11 (2/3)
    U-turn : 10 (half)
    Sludge Wave : 8 (half)
    Aqua-jet : 9 (half)
    Aurasphere: 3 (Dragonblaze052, The Pizza Man, Hoping4megasceptile)
    Heat wave:3 (Korski, Ramplestilskin, The Reptile)

    Other RMs:
    Payback : 3 (Korski, Hoping4megasceptile, Bull of heaven)
    Fire Fang : 2 (P2X7, Yoshuriken)
    Flare Blitz :2 (Salt the Flesh, Deck Knight)
    Nature Power : 2 (Dragonblaze052, Toa Tahu)
    Poison Jab : 2 (jas61292, Toebag)
    Drill Peck exclusive to V4LOVER but is not on its movepool ???
    Rock Blast is exclusive to Deck Knight
    Gunk Shot is exclusive to Kappaten
    Pin Missile is exculsive to Ramplestilskin (yeah that's me)
    Pursuit is exclusive to The Reptile
    Rock Slide is exclusive to Toa Tahu
    Sucker Punch is exclusive to P2X7

    presence of non-attacking RMs (or somewhat usefull things): (open)

    All movepools : Will-o-Wisp
    Memento : 17 (Qwilphish)
    Substitute : 17 (Qwilphish)
    Rain Dance : 14 (DragonBlaze052, Hoping4megasceptile, P2X7, Bull of heaven)
    Reflect : 13 movepools (2/3)
    Sunny Day : 12 (2/3)
    Baton Pass : 9 movepools (half)
    Destiny Bond : 6 movepools (1/3)
    Stealth Rock : 6 movepools (1/3)
    Haze : 5 movepools
    Heal Bell/Aromatherapy : 5 movepools
    Refresh:3 movepools (Kappaten, Ramplestilskin, escarlata)
    Healing Wish : 2 (Qwilphish, P2X7)
    Pain Split : 1 (Qwilphish)

    Presence of Flavor moves: (open)

    17 : Incinerate
    16 : Flash
    13 : Scary Face
    12 : Leech Life, Octazooka
    10 : Camouflage, Constrict, Ember, Smokescreen, Thief
    9 : Dive, Wrap
    8 : Bubble, Confuse Ray, Flame Burst, Water Gun
    7 : Bubble Beam, Inferno, Quash
    6 : Aqua Ring, Bite, Fire Spin, Tickle, Torment
    5 : Leer, Mean Look, Water Pulse
    4 : Embargo, Fling, Peck, Whirlpool
    3 : Astonish, Brine, Feint Attack, Flail, Psybeam, Safeguard, Sludge, Smack Down, Smog, Soak, Spite, Venoshock
    2 : Captivate, Eerie Impulse, False Swipe, Flame Wheel, Mist, Mud Shot, Slam, Spike Cannon
    1 : Acid, Ancientpower, Assurance, Bide, Block, Charm, Confusion, Cut, Dream Eater, Endure, Flatter, Focus Energy, Fury Attack, Gastro Acid, Lock-On, Metronome, Mimic, Minimize, Mud Bomb, Mud-Slap, Needle Arm, Pluck, Poison Fang, Reflect Type, Screech, Splash, Strength, Supersonic, Vice Grip, Water Sport, Wide Guard, Night Shade, Psych Up


    If I find little time to do so, I'll explain why I made those stats, and try to give my opinion on this. The only thing I wanted was post it out before the time limit has gone. Good night everyone.
  22. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    I disagree with alexwolf that this CAP needs more in the way of support options. We want this thing to be attacking when it's out on the field, first and foremost (we decided this during this Concept Assessment phase and have followed through on it with every stage of the process so far), so I would consider any realistic support options outside of Will-o-Wisp (which is basically just there for Azumarill and Mawile), including Heal Bell and especially Stealth Rock, to be major distractions from the purpose of this project. Stealth Rock does indeed help our offensive teammates score KOs, but it also helps everything score KOs, so I don't see how it specifically pertains to this CAP except to make it more generically useful to any OU team. Also, in the current OU metagame, Stealth Rock is still a powerful entry hazard but is also something you need to lay down multiple times in a match, so I would consider incentivizing defensive EVs enough to reliably lay it down multiple times a distraction from the nuclear offensive presence we have already established. The same can be said for Heal Bell. Everything hates status, so I don't see how this move makes our core specifically any better (nor do I think anyone would actually run Heal Bell if the CAP got it). Stuff like Memento and Destiny Bond are more like good flavor, and are at least pro-concept gimmick moves in that they can help Lucario set up or force switches for Analytic boosts or something (hard to tell exactly how Destiny Bond would be used in battle, as the CAP has great STABs vs. slowmons). They are sort of like Stealth Rock in being useful for anything, but they aren't on that same set-defining level.

    Don't we want Specs / Scarf / Life Orb / bulky nuke @ Leftovers / 252 SpA EVs in general to be the standard? How does making Volkraken the team's Stealth Rock user fit into this ideal?
  23. V4LOVER

    V4LOVER

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    Following from Korski, SR won't necessarily be needed in the core, or potentially easy to handle. Remember that we're talking Offensive Defog Latias (last I checked, at least) and Volkraken is weak to SR. The purpose of Defog would be to remove these entry hazards, including SR...on both sides. Volkraken already gets 2HKOs on a huge amount of things, and SR may facilitate that but isn't needed. It can serve better purposes than that.

    EDIT: Also, if something is weak to SR, it will likely easily go down to something in the core. Only Flying-types are not necessarily ripped apart by Volkraken, and if they resist it (Water/Flying or Dragon/Flying), Latias or even Lucario can take care of it.
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Volkraken would still be using its STABs most of the time because they are so powerful and hard to wall. While Stealth Rock and Heal Bell are indeed good support moves, Heal Bell is by nature a move you don't use often and is reactive, which means that the CAP will use it only when really needed and not spam it instead of its STABs. As for SR, i have already explained that Volkraken won't make for a great SR user and it's very likely that it won't use it very often, as there are simply better SR users in OU, such as Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Garchomp, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. However, SR is still a good addition to the CAP's movepool because it makes the core more self sufficient and in need of less support from other teammates if the need arises. This is why SR would greatly benefit Latias and Lucario and not just any Pokemon, because SR is not a particularly effective option on it, just a situationally useful one. Also, you neglected to mention how Heal Bell helps against Pokemon we are supposed to directly deal with, such as Toxic Aegislash and Toxic Heatran, which makes it pro-concept, similarly with WoW.

    As for what we want to be the preffered set on the CAP, my preference is a bulky set with max power and near max HP with Leftovers. This set still has a lot of power, but is much more checkable than LO / Specs so it doesn't demolish its offensive checks with just its STABs, while having enough utility and bulk to be considered a semi-utility pivot, in addition to a hard hitter. Iirc we wanted to make the CAP a bulky pivot and hard hitter, and max HP / max SpA sets with lefties are those that accomplish those goals the best. This is why added situational utility from moves such as Stealth Rock and Heal Bell would be appreciated.
    Yoshuriken likes this.
  25. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I'm going to make some general comments about specific competitive moves. Sorry if this post is a bit short, computer issues be keepin' a TL down :(

    SubSplit is really only problematic when combined with Scald and/or Toxic. SubSplit by itself isn't that problematic: there are plenty of Pokemon that can counter Volkraken with just Substitute and Pain Split, it's when you start letting Volkraken easily spread status to its counters that we end up in hot water (forgive the pun). I don't want SubSplit to be immediately disallowed because discouraging SubSplit is really just discouraging Pain Split. Looking at the Final Submissions posted so far, there is not a single submission that has included Pain Split even though it was looked at favorably in the Non-Attacking Moves Discussion. This is largely because users feel forced to decide between Substitute and Pain Split knowing that their submissions are likelier to win if they include Substitute - a move found on nearly every Pokemon. The largest problem with Substitute is that is lets Volkraken hit its opponent with a status move without having to predict, then switch out and only lose 25% of its health, less if it's using Leftovers. Pain Split just makes Volkraken a better Substitute user, which in turn makes it a better status user. There are ways to mitigate this without having to blackball Pain Split from the process such as denying Volkraken Scald. My personal opinion is that SubSplit does more harm than good, but it seems that Pain Split is being unfairly blackballed from this stage in the process after people argued to allow it.

    Another move I don't love is Lava Plume, and I'm happy that some movepools have decided not to include it. Ever since the Stats Discussions, we've been going with Fire Blast as our main source of Fire-type damage and Will-O-Wisp as our primary source of Burn spreading. Lava Plume almost seems like we're hedging our bets: we need Fire Blast to do as much damage to our opponents as possible (a central theme of our CAP so far has been nuking the switch-in), and there shouldn't be many scenarios where we should prefer Lava Plume to Fire Blast. We need Fire Blast to OHKO Aegislash and hit Lucario's counters into Extreme Speed's KO range. We need Will-O-Wisp to burn Azumarill and Mega Mawile before they can set up on us. Lava Plume doesn't really help us out much with defeating the Pokemon we need to defeat, and a partially support/partially offensive move like Lava Plume is only going to encourage bulky sets that don't threaten Aegislash well, can't power through Fairies, etc.

    I'm not saying Lava Plume is anti-concept or that SubSplit is pro-concept, but I would be wary of rubber-stamping them without giving them good looks. I believe we might have left a few stones unturned in the Attacking and Non-Attacking Moves Discussions, and moves that we just waved through to this step might not be as great as they seem. I'm not going to -1 or veto movepools because they include Lava Plume, but I encourage thinking twice before just sticking them in your movepools.
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