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CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 9 - Complete Movepool Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, May 9, 2014.

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  1. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,133
    Hello. Here in this thread, users may make complete movepool submissions for CAP18. At the conclusion of this thread, our movepool leader ginganinja will be compiling a slate of Final Submissions for the community to vote on, and the winning submission will become the official movepool for CAP18. We've had discussions on Attacking Moves and Non-Attacking Moves, and our Topic Leadership has compiled lists of Required, Allowed, and Disallowed moves that submitters must adhere to in order to make a legal Final Submission:
    Required Moves (open)
    Final Movepool Submissions must include all of these moves; those that don't will not be considered for slating.

    Façade
    Frustration
    Giga Impact
    Hidden Power
    Hyper Beam
    Rest
    Return
    Round
    Sleep Talk
    Toxic
    Allowed Moves (open)
    These moves are considered optional. It is up to each movepool submitter whether or not to include these moves in their Final Submissions.

    Fire Blast
    Aura Sphere
    Hydro Pump
    Lava Plume
    Scald
    Flamethrower
    Surf
    U-Turn
    Flash Cannon
    Power Gem
    Clear Smog
    Overheat
    Sludge Wave

    Will-O-Wisp
    Memento
    Healing Wish
    Destiny Bond
    Protect
    Reflect
    Stealth Rock
    Pain Split
    Baton Pass
    Haze
    Sunny Day
    Rain Dance
    Swagger
    Heal Bell
    Refresh
    Aromatherapy
    Substitute
    Disallowed Moves (open)
    These moves are banned from inclusion in Final Submissions. Movepools that include any of these moves will not be considered for slating.

    Grass Moves
    Air Slash
    Electric Special Attacking Coverage
    Dragon Special Attacking Coverage
    Ice Special Attacking Coverage
    Dark Special Attacking Coverage
    Ghost Special Attacking Coverage
    Fairy Special Attacking Coverage
    Bug Special Attacking Coverage
    Water Spout
    Eruption
    Volt Switch
    Knock Off
    Psyshock
    Fiery Dance
    Acid Spray
    Belch
    Other coverage moves over 80 BP
    Sludge Bomb

    Calm Mind
    Quiver Dance
    Rock Polish / Agility etc
    Shell Smash
    Growth
    Nasty Plot
    Tail Glow
    Taunt
    Reliable Recovery
    Hazard Removal (Defog, Rapid Spin)
    Parting Shot
    Wish
    All Boosting Moves
    CounterCoat
    Kings Shield
    Light Screen
    Trick / Switcheroo
    Hazards: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web
    Ingrain
    Super Fang
    Status Moves including but not limited to Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Spore,
    Glare, Thunder Wave
    Flame Charge
    Sandstorm / Hail / Trick Room
    Encore
    Disable
    Spiky Shield
    Magic Coat
    Topsy Turvy
    Perish Song
    Yawn
    Roar / Whirlwind
    There are also limits on the number of Restricted Moves and total moves that will be allowed in Final Submissions, as per this discussion. All Final Movepool Submissions must have no more than 29 Restricted Moves (RMs) and 60 total moves in order to be considered for slating. Information on which moves qualify as Restricted Moves, as well as general information on making a complete CAP movepool, can be found here. While this is a submission thread, discussion on work-in-progress (WIP) and Final Submissions is encouraged so that the community can make an informed decision during the polling stage.

    This thread will be open for submissions and discussion as soon as ginganinja posts his opening remarks.

    -------------------

    CAP18 so far:

    Leadership Team:

    DetroitLolcat
    - Topic Leader
    jas61292 - Typing Leader
    PttP - Ability Leader
    srk1214 - Stats Leader
    ginganinja - Movepool Leader

    Art:
    [​IMG]
    Name: Volkraken

    Typing: Fire / Water
    Abilities: Analytic / Infiltrator / ???
    Stats: 100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2014
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,736
    O.k, so its time to start this movepool submissions thread off.

    As before, I have a few housekeeping notes. Firstly, as I said before, if you want to include both Pain Split AND Substitute in your movepool, please make sure you have a damn good reason for it, since it was something specifically called out in the NAM move discussion as a worrying combination that puts the stress on some of the pokemon on our checks and counters list.

    Secondly, make sure to include a good balance in your movepool submissions. I relaxed my initial limits, and I hope that doesn't encourage someone to abuse this by including the top 29 OP moves and calling it a day for a movepool submission. I listened to community advice, so don't let me down please, and remember to include solid reasoning and discussion when doing a final submission. In general, I'm looking to see how your movepool works, strengths, weaknesses, why you picked certain moves and what have you, rather than just looking at a list of moves. I know many people spend a great deal of time on their movepool submissions, so I would love to see that reflected in a final submission.

    I don't have much more to say, lets get these movepool submissions coming in.
    Birkal likes this.
  3. EpicUmbreon29

    EpicUmbreon29

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    35
    WIP:

    Required Moves
    Façade
    Frustration
    Giga Impact
    Hidden Power
    Hyper Beam
    Rest
    Return
    Round
    Sleep Talk
    Toxic

    Optional Moves
    Fire Blast
    Flash Cannon
    Power Gem
    Overheat
    Sludge Wave
    Will-O-Wisp
    Memento
    Healing Wish
    Destiny Bond
    Protect
    Stealth Rock
    Pain Split
    Haze
    Rain Dance
    Swagger
    Heal Bell
    Hydro Pump
    Lava Plume
    Scald
    U-Turn

    Restricted Moves
    Aqua Jet
    Aura Sphere
    Counter
    Extrasensory
    Fake Out
    Pursuit
    Sucker Punch
    Toxic Spikes

    I feel like this movepool covers what it is supposed to without being overpowered. It has all of the required moves, obviously. Other than that, in the optional moves, I chose moves for the following reasons:

    -Fire Blast: This move delivers the Fire type STAB power this Pokemon needs without the reliable accuracy of Flamethrower causing Volkraken to be too foolproof. Also, it threatens Bug types like Scizor and Forretress, along with Aegislash.
    -Flash Cannon: This move allows Volkraken to threaten Fairy types super-effectively (besides Azumarill, Klefki, and Mawile), which need to be dealt with by it, seeing as they are often able to easily stop Latias and Lucario.
    -Power Gem: This allows us to effectively threaten Bugs like Volcarona and Fire types like Charizard Y (which defeats Lucario with Fire, gets rid of Latias with the often Dragon Pulse, and stops Volkraken from being as effective as a water type as it could be with Drought).
    -Overheat: This move would essentially be how we could take down foes which cannot be stopped by Volkraken's other moves (most likely as a last resort, or in the case where it holds a White Herb).
    -Sludge Wave: Like Flash Cannon, this allows us to threaten Fairy types. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Flash Cannon has lower power, but can reliably threaten more Pokemon than a Poison type move.
    -Will-O-Wisp: This allows us to spread burns and lower the physical attacking capabilities of our foes.
    -Memento: This is essentially a last resort for when we cannot survive another turn or defeat the foe in that turn. Instead of perishing without success, Volkraken can lower the opponent's offenses and allow a team member to set up (like Lucario with Swords Dance).
    -Healing Wish: This too, is a last resort which would allow us to give a teammate a second chance rather than having Volkraken go down in vain.
    -Destiny Bond: Once again, a last chance can be helpful to a Pokemon which gets by largely on its Speed and Special Attack. This would allow Volkraken to take out one last foe before going down.
    -Protect: This is an obvious choice. On top of being a move which most Pokemon can have, it lets Volkraken learn what moves the opponent has while making them lose a turn.
    -Stealth Rock: This allows Volkraken to threaten Bug types and Fire types (Charizard, Talonflame, Volcarona) before they switch in and after it has fainted.
    -Pain Split: This helps us when we feel that Volkraken could survive another turn and take out a foe if it had more HP and the foe's was lowered.
    -Haze: This helps to stop sweeping opponents with boosting moves by returning changed stats to normal, obviously preventing disaster for Volkraken's team.
    -Rain Dance: This, obviously, helps because it makes our Water type moves more powerful, helping us deal with Fire and Ground types (Sunny Day is not included because it could end up aiding enemy Fire types).
    -Swagger: This would basically be for those who want to annoy their opponents into submission by making them hurt themselves while Volkraken's protect offers no hope of harming it.
    -Heal Bell: This is good for supporting the team and stopping conditions like a burned Lucario or such from making it much easier to lose.
    -Hydro Pump: This helps by being a high-powered STAB Water type move which helps us to take care of Ground and Fire types, but without being completely overpowered on Volkraken thanks to its lower accuracy.
    -Lava Plume: This a helps us with Aegislash and Bug types like Scizor and Forretress. While it has lower power than Fire Blast, it has better accuracy and a chance to burn.
    -Scald: This helps deal with Ground types and Fire types, like Hydro Pump does. It has lower power, but higher accuracy and a chance to burn. This, like Lava Plume, gives it more utility in its quest to destroy those the rest of our core cannot.
    -U-Turn: This would just be for if Volkraken was playing more of a pivot role, and a situation arose where it could switch out on a predicted Electric, Rock, or Ground (etc.) moves while still causing damage.
    Finally, my reasoning for the Restricted Move choices:
    -Aqua Jet: This helps to take down foes which had a Focus Sash and are either faster or survived a switch in.
    -Aura Sphere: This gives Volkraken more coverage and options and helps it to deal with Heatran and Excadrill if its other moves likely cannot reliably hit them.
    -Counter: Basically, if we give this thing Focus Sash, on a turn where we know it will take a Ground or Rock type physical hit and it won't take down the foe with another move, we have our secret weapon.
    -Extrasensory: This helps by adding coverage and allowing us to deal with Gengar super-effectively through its Poison typing.
    -Fake Out: This would allow us to break Sturdy or get past a Focus Sash without taking damage.
    -Pursuit: With this, we could take out a foe about to be defeated which is likely to switch out, and might even be taken out if it ends up not doing so.
    -Sucker Punch: This would allow us to deal with Aegislash and Gengar to an extent, or let us have a priority move more powerful than Aqua Jet (though both are physical and therefore not the most reliable).
    Edit: I took out Toxic Spikes (I somehow managed to overlook its ban). However, is Counter banned, or is it just the combination of Counter and Mirror Coat? The ladder is what I took CounterCoat to mean.
    Note: I'll fix the hide/show options later and reorganize them into Egg Moves, Level Up, etc.
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  4. Salt

    Salt nom
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    347
    Final Submission

    Bold = RM
    Italics = Outclassed/Double/Repeat

    Total Moves: 52
    Total RMs: 26


    I had one point in mind when building this movepool: no unnecessary fluff. If a move does the exact same thing as another available move while also having a potentially harmful side-effect, I did not include it. Moves like Overheat, U-turn, and Sludge Wave are examples of this, all of which are touched on in my competitive reasoning. Flavor was entirely secondary, and you'll find that most of my reasoning for that is inane rambling. Please consider this movepool for its competitive justifications. I will say this though; If you think the lack of Overheat is an egregious flavor crime, consider that there isn't a single Water-type outside of Volcanion who learns Overheat, and he's also a Fire-type. Considering his primary type is Fire, and I designed this movepool as a Water-type primarily, it's not unreasonable for Volkraken to be unable to learn Overheat. Not to mention that Heatmor doesn't learn it, so there is an exception to the "all Fire-types learn Overheat" rule.
    level up (open)

    Total Moves: 19
    RMs: 6

    1: Scald
    1: Baton Pass
    1: Lava Plume

    1: Constrict
    1: Bubble
    3: Leech Life
    7: Smokescreen
    12: Peck
    16: Supersonic
    19: Bubble Beam
    23: Confuse Ray
    28: Scald (Repeat from earlier Level Up)
    32: Scary Face
    35: Flame Burst (Outclassed by Flamethrower)
    39: Haze
    44: Hydro Pump
    48: Memento
    51: Flare Blitz

    55: Aqua Ring
    60: Inferno

    level up reasoning (open)

    Generic level up moves for Water types, Fire types, and octopi. I took inspiration mainly from Tentacruel (fellow tentacle mon), Lanturn (fellow bioluminescent mon), and Volcanion (fellow Fire/Water mon). The three moves that Volkraken learns at level 1 define what Fire/Water does: Burns things. Baton Pass is also at Level 1 because it's one of my favorite moves for the concept and fits well with moves that are learned at level 1 in general. Leech Life is a perfect move for a vampire squid, and Peck is there because squids have beaks. Smokescreen and Haze fit well with the concept of Fire/Water because it invokes the idea of steam and smoke. Scary Face should be fairy self evident. Scald is used twice because it's basically the signature of a Fire/Water type. Supersonic and Confuse Ray are present on a lot of Pokemon related to Volkraken in some way. As for RMs, there are relatively few because Level Up movepools generally don't include competitive moves often.

    TMs (open)

    Total Moves: 27
    RMs: 16

    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power

    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration

    TM27 Return (Doubles with Frustration)
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest

    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM54 Scald (Repeat from Level Up)
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM90 Substitute
    TM91 Flash Cannon

    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 Waterfall

    TM reasoning (open)
    This is the most RM-heavy section because of all the good moves available. Aside from things like Flash and Thief, which are good moves for Volkraken to have from a flavor standpoint, this is a pretty generic Fire/Water TM pool. Overheat is excluded for competitive reasons I will mention in my competitive justification, but it still conceivably makes sense as no Water-type other than Volcanion learns Overheat, and there is one Fire-type (Heatmor) who does not.

    Egg moves (Water 1 and Water 3) (open)

    Total Moves: 6
    RMs: 4

    Stealth Rock
    Clear Smog

    Octazooka
    Water Pulse
    Power Gem
    Heal Bell

    egg move reasoning (open)
    The egg groups I chose contain many Pokemon that Volkraken is related to, along with containing the moves I wanted to have as egg moves. Octazooka is one of my favorite flavor moves, but other than that, the egg moves became a dumping ground for the RMs I couldn't fit into level up or TMs.

    summary (open)

    Attacking RMs (14):
    Scald
    Lava Plume
    Hydro Pump
    Flare Blitz
    Hidden Power
    Frustration/Return
    Flamethrower/Flame Burst
    Fire Blast
    Facade
    Flash Cannon
    Surf
    Waterfall
    Clear Smog
    Power Gem

    Non-Attacking RMs (12):
    Baton Pass
    Memento
    Toxic
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Rest
    Will-O-Wisp
    Swagger
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Stealth Rock
    Heal Bell

    RM reasoning (open)
    Alright, here's where my descriptions become much less inane. All selected STAB moves are obvious, and I've renounced my doubts about Lava Plume because I realize that some people may want to choose between Fire Blast + Scald or Hydro Pump + Lava Plume.

    U-turn is not included because of my doubts about it earlier: it does a bit too much to Lati@s in addition to grabbing momentum. In addition, U-turn would make Volkraken a good general pivot, which distracts from use in the core. Baton Pass is a much healthier alternative, because it doesn't do the damage and allows for Substitute passing.

    Speaking of Substitute, I've included that as well because the benefits of SubPass outweigh the risks of SubToxic beating our counters. SubToxic is a bad set without Pain Split anyways, and Pain Split just seems like a move designed to get around our counters while opening us up to things we're supposed to threaten.

    As for coverage moves, I've excluded everything but Flash Cannon and Power Gem. Flash Cannon doesn't accomplish much that the STABs don't so there's no harm in including it, though I just as easily could have excluded it. Power Gem is essential to beat Mega Charizard X and Lum Dragonite, which walk over our core otherwise. Aura Sphere accomplishes nothing for us. (Mega)Tyranitar is already annihilated by Hydro Pump and Mega Gyarados is crippled by burn. Plus, Aura Sphere isn't helping at all if they already have boosted because they outspeed and KO Volkraken. Sludge Wave is too dangerous because it's more powerful than Analytic Fire Blast on some of our checks and counters and can screw with them.

    Overheat is excluded because of this:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Abomasnow Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 215-253 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Abomasnow Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 108-127 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    That is way too powerful for us. Even after -2, we 2HKO Latios while he can't OHKO us back. I think the calc speaks for itself, and I can't really think of any benefit to having Overheat because Fire Blast already achieves our intended KOs. The -2 doesn't really even matter much of the time because Volkraken will constantly be switching out, so the extra damage on Latios and Latias is entirely unnecessary because Fire Blast already does a number to them. We should avoid dangerous redundancy whenever we can.

    Stealth Rock and Heal Bell allow the core to be more self-sufficient. With Volkraken as the team's SR setter, the teamslot can be dedicated to actually covering more of the core's weaknesses. Stealth Rock, even with Defog Latias, is still essential for Lucario to achieve important KOs. Heal Bell is a huge relief for the otherwise status susceptible core. Paralysis in particular cripples all three members, and having a way to clear status without having to look for a member outside of the core or using one of Latias' precious moveslots is a nice boon.

    Lava Plume has been brought into question, and I understand why. It basically does a half-assed job of what both Fire Blast and Will-o-Wisp are supposed to do. The reason I keep it is because of which combination of "power" STAB and "burning" STAB people would want to run. Of course, Fire Blast/Scald is going to be superior most of the time but running Hydro Pump over Scald allows Heatran to be beaten more easily, and an Aegislash at ~10% is practically dead anyways, and literally dead if it gets burned.

    The role of Clear Smog, and Haze by extension, is pretty self evident. Rain Dance and Flare Blitz have no competitive value.
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
    Toebag, alexwolf and Albacore like this.
  5. V4LOVER

    V4LOVER

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Final Submission

    I wanted to make this movepool diverse, giving interesting choices and variety to Volkraken. While the options were severely limited through the discussions, I was still left with a few moves that, while very similar in execution, still kept that variety intact, namely being Sludge Wave, Flash Cannon, Power Gem, and Aura Sphere. However, looking back through the movepool including these I decided that only Flash Cannon and Power Gem would really be "needed," and that the other two were situationally more powerful or more reliable than the STAB options given to Volkraken. The concept of this CAP is to create the perfect third part to Lucario and Latias, while allowing for their own strengths and covering their weaknesses, and letting Volkraken do all the work would be against that, favoring it over the other two.

    Volkraken has a few interesting support options that it has at its disposal. Memento is included as a way to pass an advantage off to the other two in the core, netting a potential free SD from Lucario or an attack from either of them. Baton Pass is included as a passive way to switch out, leaving the entrant free of harm. I didn't include Stealth Rock as it was unnecessary - Memento would be the only forced switch from the core, sacrificing Volkraken anyway. If something is taking 25% or more from SR, it's going to die to one of the core members just due to the typing. Finally, Defog Latias completely erases SR on the opponent's side in addition to any others, so having it would be redundant. Clear Smog exists as a way to stop setup sweepers on the offensive side, which can cover what Memento cannot. Will-O-Wisp, a bread-and-butter move for any Pokemon with good bulk and a Fire typing, is present as a near-permanent marker as setup bait for Lucario or to increase the survivability of Volkraken against top physical threats.

    The flavor moves are a bit standard, including some of the basics for the typing (Ember, Water Gun) and the ones relating to the design (Constrict, Mean Look). The main deviations from the rest are Needle Arm and Drill Peck, which makes reference to the spiky tentacles and beak as it (and vampire squids) have, adding a pinch of more diversity to the movepool outside of the few type options it has competitively, despite being hardly competitively useful. Some dark moves such as Thief and Quash were included for the sake of enhancing the "vampire" aspect, as were Leech Life and Astonish, which drain (Japanese name is Suck Blood) and flinch respectively.

    RM
    Non-RM

    Physical
    Special

    The root of all flavor, and obscure physical moves
    Level Up (open)

    (18 moves, 5 RMs)

    1 Memento
    1 Scald
    1 Peck
    1 Leech Life
    3 Constrict
    3 Bite
    5 Ember
    8 Water Gun
    13 Smokescreen
    20 Clear Smog
    26 Brine
    30 Needle Arm
    30 Scary Face
    33 Destiny Bond
    36 Camouflage
    41 Dive
    47 Flare Blitz
    54 Hydro Pump

    The level up movepool doesn't have many interesting things. I included a pattern that involves learning two flavor-oriented moves at the same level. At level 20, better moves start appearing, and some interesting choices as well. I couldn't pass up Needle Arm, since this is the next best thing to Cacturne that fits the description of the move. It's only 60 BP, not a RM, and is a physical move, so it won't see any use competitively - you'd have to run max+ Attack, be banded, and get the Analytic boost to do any viable damage to our checks/counters.

    0- Atk Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 80-96 (18.7 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- Atk Analytic Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- Atk Analytic Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Choice Band Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 208-248 (48.8 - 58.2%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 162-192 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Volkraken Needle Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    The top three are the calcs for if someone slapped Needle Arm on a typical set for coverage, such as if Gastrodon was a threat they wanted to have coverage against. Not effective. The bottom three sacrifice the best qualities of Volkraken just for chances at 2HKOs on the waters. Gastrodon is the only one that does not outspeed for the 2HKO, but after one Needle Arm it most likely won't be staying in.

    The fire movepool is lacking in the level up, but is highly rewarded with TMs. The severe lack of non-attacking moves (only 2) in the level up movepool emphasizes the aggressive nature of this Pokemon. Hydro Pump is repeated at level 1 and level 54, as is the tendency for evolved forms with powerful moves later in the learnset. Flare Blitz is a physical STAB option.

    Smaller support options, niche offensive options, and a flavor move that works well competitively
    Egg Moves (open)

    (6 moves, 3 RMs - Water 1 and Amorphous)

    Pluck
    Haze
    Baton Pass
    Mean Look
    Aqua Jet
    Power Gem


    Generation VI seems to have a limited egg movepool for those introduced in it, with an average of 5 moves and a max of 7 in any of them. Water 1 because of the diverse movepool among the water types in it, and Amorphous because it does have a flexible shape (and fits in - see Eelektross). Mean Look, obviously based on the false face, was unfortunately not present in any water type, but it was easy to pick out of the Amorphous group. It serves as dual flavor, adding value in trapping prey and its appearance.

    Note that Pluck is available due to its TM status in Gen 5.

    Pluck would only be a possible concern for Keldeo, but isn't really:

    0- Atk Analytic Volkraken Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery (typical set)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Volkraken Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 162-192 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (max attack)

    Main firepower
    TM/HM Moves (open)

    (33 moves [32 unique], 19 [unique] RMs [Scald repeated from Level Up])

    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration

    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM33 Reflect
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round

    TM50 Overheat
    TM55 Scald
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM60 Quash
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash

    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM89 U-turn
    TM90 Substitute
    TM91 Flash Cannon

    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 Waterfall


    This is the section where most of the RMs and firepower (pun intended) of the moveset comes from. Fire Blast and Flamethrower are here, as well as Scald and Surf. Sludge Wave, U-Turn, and Flash Cannon also come from here, completing the little bit of usable coverage Volkraken gets. Not much can be said about the TMs, as most have been eliminated due to coverage restrictions and move limits. I tried to include Thief and Quash as it is intended to look menacing and can't pass up a bit of Dark flavor.

    Summary (open)

    (56 moves, 27 RMs)

    Attacking RMs (16):
    Hidden Power
    Fire Blast
    Hydro Pump
    Scald
    Flamethrower
    Overheat
    Surf
    Power Gem
    Clear Smog
    Flash Cannon

    Façade
    Frustration/Return
    U-Turn
    Aqua Jet
    Waterfall
    Flare Blitz

    Non-Attacking RMs (11):
    Protect
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Toxic
    Will-O-Wisp
    Rain Dance
    Baton Pass
    Memento
    Reflect
    Swagger
    Destiny Bond


    Overall, I wanted to make Volkraken diverse within the strict boundaries set to keep the core balanced and emphasize the other members just as much as Volkraken. While its STAB options will be the staple attacking options, it has a couple others that allow it to surprise opponents, pick off specific threats as needed, and support Lucario and Latias through U-Turn and Baton Pass. Its support options help cripple the enemy to transition to another core member when Volkraken has served its purpose and cannot do as well as the others.
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
    CerberusSONE and FezzikTheMighty like this.
  6. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
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    Final Submission

    Overview

    With this movepool, the main thing I have tried to do is put complete focus on our goal of blasting switch-ins. While, with our stats, types and abilities, there is plenty we could do, with the right move, the direction we sought out so far was to punish switches, in order to put pressure on the things that threaten Latios and Lucario, as well as to soften things up for a Lucario sweep. Yet, with the tools we have, doing this is not that hard, and so I did not want to make Volkraken so good at its job that it did not want support from the rest of the core. So, I decided to make sure that, while it was good at its job, it would be fairly predictable at it. Thus, coverage is only given as absolutely needed, and supportive options that would allow for working strategies that do not fit in this basic mold are not included.


    * = Restricted Move
    + = Repeated Move
    ~ = Competitively equivalent to an earlier move

    Level Up Moves (open)
    00 Clear Smog*
    00 Inferno
    00 Astonish
    00 Smog
    00 Bubble
    00 Constrict
    05 Ember
    10 Focus Energy
    16 Aqua Jet*
    19 Flame Wheel
    23 Bubble Beam
    28 Endure
    34 Scald*
    37 Lava Plume*
    41 Memento*
    46 Dive
    52 Flail
    59 Hydro Pump*
    67 Inferno+

    6 Restricted Moves
    18 Total Unique Moves
    Level Up flavor Reasoning (open)
    Level Up move flavor was mostly kept as basic as possible. I didn't want to try and throw in any moves that would require significant knowledge of that base creature to understand. As such, most moves are just typical fire or water moves. The progression of these moves is also pretty standard, starting with 40 BP moves, and working its way up to the the 60s, then 80, and eventually a pair of 100+ BP offensive capstones, with STAB moves coming in pairs each time, one after the other. In addition, there are a two less useful STABs thrown in there as well, which I will talk about shortly, that have good flavor, but are not traditional straight damage moves, and so are not paired up like the others.

    With that said, there are a couple moves that I want to just briefly talk about.

    First of these is Aqua Jet. While, as a water type, there is not really anything obscure about this, I think it fits a vampire squid pretty well. Vampire squid can swim quite fast for their size, and accelerate to top speed quickly, yet they do not have great stamina. I think this is represented well by a priority move like this. Secondly is Dive. Vampire Squid live over 2000 feet under the sea, so having Dive in level up makes perfect sense. Finally, Inferno is less about the base species and more to do with the more sinister nature that people seem keen to ascribe to this Pokemon based on what I have seen in name submissions and on IRC. The fact that it is a great capstone move for a fire type only helps. As for the rest of the moves, they are mostly just basic fire or water flavor, or inspired by Octillary or Malamar's movepool.

    I also made sure, when structuring the level up pool, to have Inferno as a move one could get from the move relearner. It is a common trait of gen 6 fully evolved Pokemon to have their most iconic high level moves available from the relearner, in addition to relearner only moves, such as, in this case, Clear Smog. The actual level progression was inspired by fellow fire mollusk Magcargo, though with some levels slightly moved up and down to get a unique pattern.

    TM/HM Moves (open)
    TM06 Toxic*
    TM10 Hidden Power*
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect*
    TM18 Rain Dance*
    TM21 Frustration*
    TM27 Return~
    TM32 Double Team
    TM33 Reflect*
    TM35 Flamethrower*
    TM38 Fire Blast*
    TM42 Facade*
    TM44 Rest*
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat*
    TM55 Scald+
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp*
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM84 Poison Jab*
    TM87 Swagger*
    TM88 Sleep Talk*
    TM90 Substitute*
    TM91 Flash Cannon*
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf*
    HM05 Waterfall*

    19 Unique Restricted Moves
    30 Total Unique Moves
    TM/HM flavor Reasoning (open)
    Once again here, there is not a ton of unexpected moves. You have all the typical required moves, plus all the common Fire and Water moves. In fact there are only a few moves that are here solely for flavor. First of these is Thief, which is simply a common move on all sorts of things, from bugs to monkeys to fish. I didn't really want to include any Dark moves that were more powerful, but I liked the flavor, and Thief is common, so I thought it was a good fit. Flash, as well as the slightly more competitive Flash Cannon, were put in as a reference to the bioluminescence of vampire squid. Finally, Poison Jab was thrown in to give a bit more type diversity. Poison is a type I already had a few moves of in level up, and Poison Jab is on all kinds of Pokemon. Also, with all those tentacles there is plenty for it to jab with.

    Egg Moves (Water 1 / Amorphous Egg Groups) (open)
    Eerie Impulse
    Fire Spin
    Octazooka
    Power Gem*
    Tickle
    Wrap

    1 Unique Restricted Moves
    6 Total Unique Moves
    Egg Move flavor Reasoning (open)
    The egg moves I chose are almost entirely flavor. Eerie Impulse is a fun move that fits in with the creepy theme on the vampire side of vampire squid. I also like how it is a move also possessed by Lanturn that is another deep sea Pokemon (although Volkraken can only get it through Wooper, and not Lanturn directly). Octazooka is the perfect flavor move, in my opinion. While I don't want to take a former signature move as a level up move, we have 8 tentacles and are very similar to Octillery, so it makes an awesome egg move. Fire Spin and Wrap are just obvious flavor moves that don't take a lot of explaining, while Tickle is a silly little move possessed by a lot of different things, including fellow mollusk Omastar, and is a common egg move.

    As for the egg groups, I decided on Water 1 and Amorphous for a few reasons. First, I wanted it in at least one water egg group since it is a water type, after all. As Octillery was in Water 1 and 2, and decided to have one of those. At the same time, I wanted it to share an egg group with the other Fire mollusk, Magcargo, which meant putting it in Amorphous. This worked out well, to me, since that group is filled with all sorts of things, some similar ecologically, while others very different ecologically, but very similar in their intangible theme. I ended up settling on Water 1 for the other since that was the egg group combo of Gastrodon, another mollusk.

    Competitive Summary (open)
    Special Offensive RMs:

    Clear Smog
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Flash Cannon
    Lava Plume
    Hidden Power
    Hydro Pump
    Overheat
    Power Gem
    Scald
    Surf


    Non-Attacking RMs:

    Memento
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Reflect
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Swagger
    Toxic
    Will-O-Wisp


    Overall Totals:
    26 Restricted Moves
    53 Total Moves
    Competitive Justification (open)
    Reliable STABs: To be more specific, what I mean here is the group of Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Lava Plume, Surf, Hydro Pump and Scald. While I don't think there is too much controversial about any of the reliable STAB moves, I do think that each individual one is important in their own right, so I want to take a bit to address them. Fire Blast and Hydro Pump are the pure power options, and when talking about how we want to punish switches, they are the most important moves. Not a lot can switch into the sheer power of this pair, and that is exactly why we chose the stats that we did. Fire Blast is especially notable for being able to get the KOs on Aegislash that we so desperately desire. Scald and Lava Plume allow us to go a somewhat different route, while still going for the same goal. These moves punish switches, not by their sheer power, but by having decent power along with threatening burns. They won't break things on their own, and won't let us get by anything that we weren't already able to blast through with Hydro Pump or Fire Blast, but they trade damage for potentially making things easier on teammates. Finally, Flamethrower and Surf are the middle of the road options. Generally inferior as the lack power or a good effect chance, but are very reliable, and could serve as a back up STAB along side the more powerful options.

    Overheat: As already mentioned, possible the biggest goal that we had with our stats and abilities was punishing switch ins. Overheat does that like nothing else, in exchange for a huge loss of momentum. A few things that might consider switching into Fire Blast or Hydro Pump might just be overcome by this move. However, the increase in power is very rarely actually all that important. The Special Attack drop caused by the move makes it so that two Overheats is usually going to be much weaker than two Fire Blasts, so I don't really see its power as being a real negative thing at all. What's more, this movepool lacks any significant coverage moves, meaning it will never be able to follow up a nuking overheat with anything more powerful than another momentum killing overheat. Additionally, the movepool lacks switching moves, so if Overheat fails to do what was intended, it is forced into a cold switch. I believe that because of these facts, Overheat will almost always be an inferior choice to Fire Blast.

    Power Gem: This is the only move in the entire movepool that I would really tout as good coverage. On our list of things we want to be threatened by are special Dragons, so we don't want anything hitting them hard. At the same time, physical Dragons, notably Dragonite, are problems for our core. Rock coverage hits almost every one of the common physical attacking Dragons harder than any of our other attacks could, while at the same time being weaker than our best STABs against special dragons. Additionally, Mega Charizard Y can also be a problem for the core, with good special bulk, SE STAB on Lucario, and Drought, which weakens what would normally be a super effective Water move. However, Power Gem utterly destroys it. There is literally nothing it hits that we do not want to hit, there is almost nothing that we want to threaten that both resists our STABs and is not weak to Power Gem. The perfect coverage move, in my opinion.

    Clear Smog: While I just said that there is almost nothing we want to threaten that both resists our STABs and is not weak to Power Gem, almost nothing is not nothing. In fact, it is Azumarill. While Azumarill is not the biggest thing we need to worry about, as we can threaten burns, for a pure offensive set, Clear Smog will hit Azumarill harder than any other option we have. It also serves as a neat utility move against boosters or Baton Pass teams. It is also a rare supportive option that can even be used on a Choice or Assault Vest set. Its not all that notable as Volkraken is generally better off just craking things with its STABs, and the power bonus, even over a not very Effective STAB is not that large. Even so, it is a useful option to have, and not harmful to any of our check or counters in the least.

    Flash Cannon: Despite the fact that this move hits Fairies, something we want to threaten, Super Effectively, Flash Cannon is really a rather unremarkable move. It is weaker than a STAB Fire Blast, even when it is one step more effective, and it is only neutral against Azumarill, the only fairy to resist both our STABs. It could see use on a choice set wanting a more reliable way to hit fairies, but in general, it is not all that useful at all. It is, however, quite flavorful, and, with no real negatives for our concept, it makes a lot of sense to include it.

    Will-O-Wisp: Of all the support moves, I think Wisp is by far the most important. To keep with the theme I have set so far, Wisp does a wonderful job of threatening switch ins. The fact is that residual damage sucks for anything, and the only things immune to burn are fire types that don't want to switch into Volkraken. While it may be hard to justify using any status inflicting move when packing as much power as we are and lacking recovery, if we ever were to want to do so, burn would be the way to do it. Additionally, as mentioned before, burns are the best thing we have for shutting down Azumarill, who can otherwise be quite threatening to our core. Wisp also can be useful should you opt for Infiltrator over Analytic, allowing you to burn thing that might think you are substitute bait (if such a thing exists) or that is predicting a switch.

    Substitute: Frankly, I don't think there is that much to say about Substitute, as my movepool lacks the necessary moves to really abuse it. Certainly getting up a Sub on a switch qualifies for "punishing switches," but the fact is, Volkraken would have little to do once it Subs up. It can't carry any obscure coverage moves, so Sub isn't helping ease prediction, and it lacks recovery of any kind, so it can't really help stall out its counters or anything. Its not a terrible move, but when the best thing it is doing is letting you get a second pathetic attack off against Chansey before being forced out, its not really a big deal. As always, Substitute is a great move, but I just don't think it is anything all that special here.

    Toxic: Everything gets Toxic, but not many things use it, and I do not believe that, with this movepool, Volkraken would be one of those things. Spamming STABs will almost always be a better option, and when you take into account that you will often be coming in on Aegislash, its just downright risky for no good reason. You might worry what it can do in conjunction with Substitute, but without any way to recover health, it is not stalling anything out for long.

    Reflect: This move is not one I expect to see get much use, but I think it meshes well with what we want to do. Everything we want to be checked by either does damage with special attacks or via status or set damage moves. On the other hand, multiple things we want to threaten are physical attackers. While Reflect is not generally the best way to stop these Pokemon, it is a usable option. What's more, Reflect helps give setup opportunities for Lucario. That alone is not all that amazing, as generally when providing that kind of setup support, you want dual screens, but in conjunction with everything else we have, it helps provide that kind of support in a way more beneficial to Lucario than most others.

    Memento: Speaking of supporting setup, Memento is the king of that. Of course, it comes at the cost of your own life. Obviously all set up sweepers love this king of support, but when you have something this powerful, it is only going to want to use it if it knows it will end the battle. That is where I see it as an advantage for the core. Lucario's big draw is Extremespeed allowing to bypass everything, and completely finish weakened teams. It is only in the situations where Lucario can do what Lucario does better than anyone else that Volkraken will ever want to use Memento in the first place.

    Weather Moves: Rain Dance and Sunny Day seem to have a lot of potential to be scary as they increase the power of our amazing STABs even more. However, I don't think either is actually all that great, as each one weakens a STAB, and in the time it takes to set them up, you will already have something threatening you. Since manual sun is not really that good in the first place, and manual rain is hindering to Volkraken as it nerfs arguably its most spammable move in Fire Blast, I don't really see much harm in having either of these moves.


    Notable Exclusions

    Sludge Wave: Despite my vote to allow this move, after much though, I decided that it was best not to include it in my movepool. This is not because I think the move is too powerful, but because I think that, while Volkraken should be punishing switches, it should be doing so in a very predictable way. Thus, any non STAB move that is our best move against a Pokemon that we do not want to threaten is not something I wanted to include. Sludge Wave's ability to hit Keldeo, Latios and Latias stronger than our STABs is not something that meshed with this ideal that I tried to keep to.

    U-Turn: Momentum is always good to keep, and getting switch advantage on you side is always great. However, the design intent so far with this Pokemon has been to let us nuke switches. Passing switch advantage to a teammate is not really following with that goal. What is more, I like the ability to super nuke things with Overheat, but I want such a power to come with the risk of a cold switch. Allowing U-Turn lets us get in at least some chip damage for free, all while scouting the opponent. What's more, on faster Pokemon like Latias, it lets our Specially bulky CAP take the hit, allowing a more frail Pokemon a free switch. Since this eliminates one of the major downsides of Overheat, without really any negatives of its own, and without any major detrimental effect on switch-ins like we want, I don't see a good reason to include it.

    Pain Split: Unreliable as it may be, healing is not something that I am particularly interested in for Volkraken. Our role is not so much about our own survivability, so much as it is about destroying the survivability of others, and wasting time on a move that will not even cripple most opponents that much in order to survive longer is not what I believe we should be doing. More importantly though is the fact that I do not believe such a move would ever even be useful, except in situations where we should be outright losing. With base 100 HP, it takes a high HP opponent for us to even heal a mediocre amount. The only time we are healing enough for it to really be worth it is against things like Chansey and Blissey, who are supposed to be hard counters. What's more, in combination with Substitute and Toxic, Pain Split can pretty much allow us to beat all our counters. Not only is that obviously bad, but in order for something so bad to even be possible, we must be running a set that doesn't even do the switch punishing job we should be doing. Pain Split might not be the only move needed for such a negative result, but it is by far the most unnecessary to have.

    Stealth Rock: The reason for this exclusion was pretty much that I think Volkraken has better things to be doing than setting hazards. While it could be argued that you punish switches by getting up hazards, with Latias being all about Defog, and our build so far being all about direct damage, I don't think SR really fits in that well, and is something best left to a 4th teammate. Simply put, it just doesn't really mesh with my vision for this movepool, and, while I don't particularly see that much wrong with it, there was no real positive justification I could think of that would make me include it.

    Baton Pass: To put things simply, I don't see why Volkraken should be passing anything. We have no desire to be part of Baton Pass chains, and, passing Substitutes, which is all we really can pass, are not incredibly helpful to our core. In addition, I don't really want to provide any more incentive for using Substitute than is necessary. While Sub Toxic might not beat Chansey without Pain Split, letting us get in a Toxic on them and then pass out for a free switch in is not all that much better in my mind. No matter how it is being used though, Baton Pass would sets would have Volkraken playing in an entirely different manner than the intended "nuke the switch" path, and that is not something I am looking to encourage.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
    CerberusSONE, dwarfstar and Toebag like this.
  7. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,528
    Final Submission:

    Level-Up (open)

    - Inferno
    - Rock Blast*
    - Leer
    - Ember
    - Wrap
    6. Acid
    10. Bubble Beam
    14. Fire Spin
    18. Will-O-Wisp*
    22. Gastro Acid
    25. Lava Plume*
    28. Octazooka
    34. Smokescreen
    40. Clear Smog*
    46. Baton Pass*
    52. Flare Blitz*
    58. Memento*
    64. Hydro Pump*

    RMs: 8 / Moves: 18


    Level-up swipes the actual levels and build-up from Octillery, and provides a flavorful mix of progressively more powerful special attacks, smoke attacks, and status moves. The competitive highlights of this list are Will-O-Wisp, Lava Plume, Clear Smog, Memento, and Hydro Pump.

    Egg: (open)


    Group: Water 1 / Water 2

    Aqua Jet*
    Aqua Ring
    Camouflage
    Lock-On
    Psybeam
    Soak
    Stealth Rock*

    RM: 2 / Moves 7


    Legalities:

    Aqua Jet + Aqua Ring + Soak: Alomomola
    Aqua Jet + Aqua Ring + Stealth Rock: Empoleon
    Aqua Jet + Psybeam + Soak: Golduck
    Aqua Jet + Stealth Rock: Kabutops / Carracosta
    Aqua Ring + Psybeam + Soak: Lumineon / Lanturn
    Camouflage + Psybeam: Malamar
    Camouflage + Stealth Rock: Corsola / Stunfisk
    Lock-On + Psybeam + Soak: Octillery


    Same Egg Groups as Octillery, with a fair bit of overlap. Of special note here even though it isn't an RM, is Psybeam, which is useful for several Pokemon that otherwise give its best coverage options (Fire/Water/Poison/Steel) a hard time. The two notable actual RMs here are Baton Pass and Stealth Rock, though I suppose you could use Aqua Jet to thwart Sucker Punches.

    TM (open)
    TM:

    06 Toxic*
    10 Hidden Power*
    11 Sunny Day
    15 Hyper Beam
    17 Protect*
    18 Rain Dance*
    21 Frustration*
    23 Smack Down
    27 Return -
    32 Double Team
    33 Reflect*
    34 Sludge Wave*
    35 Flamethrower*
    38 Fire Blast*
    42 Façade*
    44 Rest*
    45 Attract
    46 Thief
    48 Round
    50 Overheat*
    55 Scald*
    59 Incinerate
    61 Will-O-Wisp -
    68 Giga Impact
    70 Flash
    87 Swagger*
    88 Sleep Talk*
    90 Substitute*
    91 Flash Cannon*
    100 Confide
    H1 Cut
    H3 Surf*
    H5 Waterfall*

    RM: 19 / Moves: 32



    I pulled a lot of the flavor moves here from Octillery as well, including moves like Smack Down. What's obviously most important here is the coverage and support options. The strongest coverage move Volkraken has is Sludge Wave, and the TM Learnset also features Overheat and Flash Cannon. I strongly believe both of these moves are necessary to make an Inflitrator set viable, or even more defensive sets by netting that swift OHKO on Aegislash.

    Support-wise, Will-O-Wisp is repeated from Level-up and Volkraken has both weathers and Reflect. Reflect I think is especially important to give Latias a chance to Defog without becoming total Pursuit bait, and also sets up Lucario well to use his 4x rock resistance that Volkraken lures.

    Total: RM 29 / Moves: 57

    Offense as a Whole:
    The driving idea behind our typing and ability selection was the ability to switch into Aegislash and offer an ultimatum between losing Aegislash and ripping the shreds out of a potential switch. As such my offensive movepool contains STAB coverage, Flash Cannon as an accurate way to hit Fairies, and Sludge Wave as the ultimate risk/reward move. If it's used against Aegislash it will backfire, but Sludge Wave also does the most damage to generic switchins that resist Fire and Water. Interestingly though, Sludge Wave does poorly against the Ground types we want to beat 1-on-1, but not necessarily check or counter. For this reason I don't even have so much as any other decently powered special coverage move outside the aforementioned Flash Cannon.

    Support as a Whole:
    Volkraken's support has the most relevant move selections for this core. Because of the attacks Volkraken lures, Reflect sets up Lucario for a switch into Rock Attacks, allows Latias to take the brunt of Mold Breaker Excadrill's Earthquake, and Volkraken's weakness to Electric is mostly addressed by Latias in Latias's type and stats alone.

    Memento is the perfect move to set up a Lucario sweep, as Lucario needs the offenses opponents severely weakened to pull it off. While other sweepers can take advantage of it, naturally, none of them can do so quite as well as Lucario because of its Swords Dance boosted Extremespeed. Combined with Stealth Rock for chip damage to get foes in Extremespeed range, Memento provides that golden opportunity.

    Finally, Baton Pass. Drypassing allows Volkraken to be the pivot necessary to scout out attacks and get Lucario in safely, or give Latias an opening to use Defog on something it can wall. As Volkraken lacks any stat-boosting moves of its own, the only thing it can pass is 101HP Substitutes, which are useful for both Lucario and Latias to deal with the blobs without getting statused or damaged.
    Competitive Summary (open)

    Special RMs:
    Overheat
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Lava Plume
    Hydro Pump
    Surf
    Scald
    Sludge Wave
    Clear Smog
    Flash Cannon
    Hidden Power

    Physical RMs:
    Flare Blitz
    Waterfall
    Aqua Jet
    Rock Blast
    Facade
    Frustration = Return

    Support RMs:
    Baton Pass
    Memento
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Reflect
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Stealth Rock
    Substitute
    Swagger
    Toxic
    Will-O-Wisp


    Flavor:

    I wanted to play off a lot of themes from bio-luminescent and ocean bottom dwelling creatures. Since volcanic vents also vent extremely powerful toxic gasses, a significant number of Volkraken's moves are poison-based. Bio-luminescent creatures can also change colors, so Camouflage is a perfect egg move, and I feel like Soak is a good counterpart with no real competitive implications. I also wanted to emphasize the ability of these creatures to regenerate, so Volkraken has both Refresh and Aqua Ring. And of course, with the Octopus connection I couldn't ignore having Octillery contribute to its Egg Moves in a unique way, granting it Lock-On for its Lv0 Inferno and a bit of Octillery's unique beam arsenal. That's also the source of moves like Smokescreen, Clear Smog, and even Aqua Jet to an extent, as blasting the ink out also grants some propulsion. Naturally, things like Flash and Flash Cannon are part of the movepool.
    List of Flavor Moves (open)

    Notable Flavor moves (unique or differentiating, non RMs):
    Acid
    Aqua Ring
    Camouflage
    Fire Spin
    Gastro Acid
    Inferno
    Octazooka
    Psybeam
    Smack Down
    Smokescreen
    Soak
    Sunny Day
    Wrap



    Conclusion:

    I take a lot of pride in giving my movesets the tools they need to be successful. I have selected the combination of competitive and flavor moves I feel do Volkraken justice, and also allow it to maximize support to this specific core. Both of its abilities will be useful, with Analytic being the superior of the two in general usage but Infiltrator having the offensive tools it needs to bring out its niche uses.

    _ _ _ _ _
    Postscript Note: I've decided, based on subsequent posts that Pain Split in conbination with other moves causes too many headaches, but I've decided to keep this scenario for posterity.
    Huge Scenario on Pain Split + Substitute: (open)
    I might as well clear the air on this. Here's a play-by-play of the mighty SubSplit against the blobs, assuming Volkraken is already in and Subs as they come in, and it isn't holding Lefties so as to maximize Pain Split effectiveness aka best case scenario:

    Volkraken: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe @ Mystic Water, Sub/Split/Toxic/Scald [404 HP] (This set is selected because Heatran doesn't hard counter it, and it has more PP)
    Blissey: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold [714 HP] Standard set.

    Turn 1:
    Volkraken Sub [31PP] (303 HP + Sub)
    Blissey switches in. (714 HP)

    Turn 2:
    Volkraken Toxic [15PP]
    Blissey Toss [31PP]
    (1 HP left on toss), Lefties and Toxic cancel HP damage

    Turn 3:
    Volkraken Pain Split [31PP] ([303 + 714]/2 = 508 HP.)
    Blissey Toss [30PP] (Sub is broken), Lefties heals 44 HP. [Blissey 552]

    Turn 4:
    Volkraken Sub [30PP] (303 HP)
    Blissey Toss [29PP] (1HP Left in Toss). Blissey heals 44 HP. [Blissey 596]

    Turn 5:
    Volkraken Toxic [14PP]
    Blissey Toss [28PP] (Sub breaks)
    Toxic/Lefties neutralize.

    Turn 6:
    Volkraken Scald [23PP] (Average damage 150)
    Blissey Softboiled [15PP] (back to full health) [670 after Toxic - Lefties]

    Turn 7:
    Volkraken Sub [29PP]
    Blissey Toss [27PP] (1HP Left on Sub) [582 After Toxic damage]

    Turn 8:
    Volkraken Split [30PP] (202 + 592 = 392)
    Blissey Heal Bell [6PP] (Blissey at 436)

    Turn 9:
    Volkraken Scald [22PP] (Average damage 150, Burns for sake of argument)
    Blissey Toss [26PP] (Sub Breaks) (Blissey 242 overall HP]

    Turn 10:
    Volkraken Sub [28 PP] [291 HP behind Sub]
    Blissey Softboiled [14PP] (555 HP after Burn]

    Turn 11:
    Volkraken Split [29PP] ([291 + 555]/2 = 423)
    Blissey Toss [26PP] (1HP Sub left) [379 After Burn]

    Turn 12:
    Volkraken Scald [21PP] (Average damage 150)
    Blissey Softboiled [13PP] (542 Ending HP after Burn and Softboiled)

    Turn 13:
    Volkraken Scald [20PP] (Average Damage 150)
    Blissey Toxic [15PP] (348 Ending HP)

    Turn 14:
    Volkraken Scald [19PP] (Average Damage 150)
    Blissey Softboiled [12PP] (511 Ending HP)

    And here, after 14 turns, we arrive at the dilemma. Volkraken is behind a Sub, so it could just keep Subbing to waste PP, but it won't be making it's Pain Split stronger. It could Pain Split, but at this stage Pain Split does less damage than Scald. It could Toxic, but that won't effect a burned Blissey that's PP stalling it. If it keeps using Scald though, Blissey will stall it out of Scald PP faster than it will run out of Softboiled PP, and Volkraken will be useless against the rest of the opponent's team. And if Volkraken uses any other move BUT Scald, Blissey can switch out and heal its status, prompting a counter or a U-turner to come in and win back some momentum or double switch.

    So basically a SubSplit set can frustrate Blissey and gain a small upper hand, but all it really prompts is a stall war and a dilemma on when to use Volkraken's one attacking move. Alternatively Volkraken could use the stronger Surf, and rely on Toxic for its chip damage, but there's a problem there, too. Toxic has the same amount of PP as Softboiled, and Blissey has the option to switch out any time it doesn't suspect a Surf. Ultimately the problem is, nothing forces Blissey to use its healing or its Seismic Toss immediately, and because of its ability, it can neutralize Toxic's effectiveness and the fact Volkraken basically has to reveal its entire set to try and address Blissey. If it doesn't have Toxic, it can't even fight Blissey at all provided a competent opponent. My apologies for this massive section, but I really HAD to address the notion SubSplit is somehow a Blissey destroyer. It might best Eviolite Chansey because it doesn't have constant recovery, but it's just going to waste a lot of PP otherwise.

    A much better set is actually Sub/Split/Baton Pass/Attack, but Sub-Pass is already something unto itself.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
    S0L1D G0LD, blitzlefan and dwarfstar like this.
  8. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    203
    22 RMs (3/5/14) (Numbers ignore the second/third/fourth/etc mention of a move and any outclassed or equivalent moves)
    51 total (21/6/25) (I know these numbers don't add up. Scald is in two lists, but only counts once.)

    All Moves (Alphabetical and by Type) (open)

    Water: Bubble, Hydro Pump, Octozooka, Scald, Water Gun, Surf

    Fire: Ember, Fire Blast, Flame Burst, Flamethrower, Incinerate, Lava Plume, Will-o-Wisp

    Normal: Attract, Camouflage, Confide, Constrict, Facade, Flail, Flash, Frustration, Giga Impact, Heal Bell, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Metronome, Mimic, Nature Power, Protect, Return, Round, Sleep Talk, Smokescreen, Snore, Splash, Substitute, Wrap

    Poison: Clear Smog, Sludge, Toxic, Venoshock

    Rock: Ancientpower, Power Gem

    Fighting: Aura Sphere

    Dark: Bite, Memento, Quash

    Ground: Mud Shot

    Ghost: Confuse Ray

    Psychic: Psybeam, Rest

    Steel: Flash Cannon


    Level Up (open)
    --: Scald*
    --: Octazooka
    --: Smokescreen
    --: Constrict
    --: Bubble
    --: Splash
    5: Bite
    8: Water Gun
    10: Flail
    13: Confuse Ray
    17: Ember
    20: Mud Shot
    24: Flame Burst~
    26: Clear Smog*
    30: Mimic
    33: Scald+
    36: Lava Plume*
    39: Sludge
    41: Metronome
    44: Ancientpower
    49: Wrap
    52: Psybeam
    57: Scald+

    Egg Moves (Amorphous and Water 3) (open)
    Aura Sphere*
    Memento*
    Camouflage
    Heal Bell*
    Hydro Pump*
    Power Gem*

    TM/HM (open)
    TM06 Toxic*
    TM09 Venoshock
    TM10 Hidden Power*
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect*
    TM21 Frustration*
    TM27 Return~
    TM35 Flamethrower*
    TM38 Fire Blast*
    TM42 Facade*
    TM44 Rest*
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM55 Scald+
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM60 Quash
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp*
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM88 Sleep Talk*
    TM90 Substitute*
    TM91 Flash Cannon*
    TM96 Nature Power*
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf*


    Competitive Reasoning (open)

    Nature Power: This attack does no more damage to bulky Dragons than Flash Cannon (33.7 - 40%), less damage than Fire Blast/Hydro Pump (34.7 - 41%) and much less than Sludge Wave (40.3 - 47.6%). Furthermore, it can be Taunted and provides absolutely no coverage when compared to any of the allowed attacking RMs that could take its place instead. Also, the status chance it provides is far less reliable than Scald would provide. This may be a good move, but it in no way goes against our counters any more than anything we already have.
    Low Move Count: This was purposeful as to provide room to add in more moves as time goes on to provide a more thought out and balanced movepool. Since I originally posted this, I have already gone from 16 to 21 RMs. I do intend to expand my movepool further before finalizing it.
    No U-Turn: I feel that this would be too hard of a hit against some of our counters (mainly Latios) when factoring the free switch it provides, essentially negating their status as a counter by putting them at the disadvantage when they switch in. It would (realistically as opposed to some ridiculous physical set) do 28.4 - 33.7% damage on Latios and allow an instant switch to something that can then defeat him with significantly more ease.
    No Overheat: WAAAAY too much damage on a Specs set. It's like Choice Specs Draco Meteor is for Latios, except it has 5 more base SpAtk and an Analytic boost. Speaking of Latios, it would take 71.1 - 83.7% damage from Specs Overheat. Not really a counter after having already done that once already unless it has Roost.
    Aura Sphere: Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados can destroy our core if they come in at any point where Lucario is not already in play and if Mega Gyarados hasn't yet Mega Evolved, it can possibly destroy us even if Lucario IS in play depending on prediction. Hydro Pump still does slightly more to Tyranitar, but still has lower accuracy that could cause the game to be lost due to hax. Aura Sphere provides a reliable answer to both of these theats to the overall core without affecting Blissey and Chansey as counters, doing less damage to them than STABs and only 4HKOing with Choice Specs.


    Flavor (Mostly Incoherent Rambling) (open)

    Egg Groups: I chose Water 3 because it is composed mainly of aquatic invertebrates such as Omanyte (a rather close relative) and Tentacruel. I chose Water 1 because of the general diversity of the Pokemon that occupy it (although there is a clear bias towards amphibious creatures as opposed to deep sea life), as well as the presence of Octillery and Malamar. The other two options I, and clearly several others, considered are Water 2 and Amorphous. I decided against it because almost all Pokemon families in it are at least partially fish, Malamar and Wailord being the only exceptions. As far as Amorphous, I must admit that I was very tempted. It provided several appealing breeding partners (not referring to Gardevoir) and already seems to have a well established theme and flavor that would fit Volkraken wonderfully. I still believe Amorphous would make an excellent choice, but Water 1 and Water 3 simply were too... Fuck it, changing it to Amorphous/Water 3 and moving Octazooka from Egg Moves to Level Up.
    Octopus/Squid based moves: Since the Vampire Squid this is based on is the only specie of its order, I decided to blur the lines to Coleoidea (octopus/squid like creatures without shells) in general. That expands the flavor to ink based attacks (Smokescreen and Octozooka), bio-luminescence based moves (Flash and Confuse Ray), toxin based moves (Toxic and Sludge), mimicry (Mimic and Camouflage) and general moves based on the anatomy of cephalopods (Wrap and Bite). Blurring distinctions between certain animals is a very common occurrence for Pokemon, such as Arbok (a cobra) exhibiting traits of several distinct species of cobra as well as the completely unrelated constrictor snakes while evolving a rattlesnake.
    Type Balance: Fire/Water is, at least as I see it, is one of the most conflicting combinations possible. What one type always has, for example, the other never has. This makes choosing whether to allow certain moves difficult to determine. Thankfully, the move bans helped somewhat in this regard, such as with Ice attacks being disallowed.
    Scald: If you need to ask, you don't really know Volkraken. :/


    (more) Reasoning will be added later. Please point out any issues or concerns you may have with my movepool and I will do my best to address them.
    Semi-Major Edit: Changed the Egg Groups
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  9. Kappaten

    Kappaten

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    273
    WIP:

    bold = RM
    italics = required move
    underline = duplicated

    Level-up (open)

    -- Inferno
    -- Scald
    -- Smog
    -- Smokescreen
    -- Constrict
    -4 Tickle
    -7 Water Gun
    12 Haze
    13 Bubble Beam
    15 Mud Shot
    18 Clear Smog
    21 Camouflage
    23 Sludge
    27 Scary Face
    31 Fire Spin
    35 Mean Look
    39 Octazooka
    43 Power Gem
    46 Flame Burst
    48 Hydro Pump

    RMs: 5
    Total: 20
    Egg Moves (Amorphous/Water 2) (open)

    Aqua Jet (directly from Sharpedo, Basculin, Alomomola; chain from Qwilfish, Luvdisc)
    Destiny Bond (directly from Gengar, Weezing, Wobbuffet, Qwilfish, Cofagrigus, Trevenant; chain from Mismagius, Gardevoir, Swalot, Sharpedo, Banette, Dusknoir, Drifblim, Spiritomb, Malamar, Gourgeist)
    Gunk Shot (directly from Muk, Octillery, Swalot; chain from Banette)
    Memento (directly from Muk, Weezing, Spiritomb, Chandelure; chain from Mismagius, Magcargo, Gardevoir, Dusknoir, Gastrodon, Drifblim, Cofagrigus)
    Mist (directly from Wailord; chain from Lanturn, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Alomomola)
    Refresh (chain from Alomomola)
    Soak (directly from Seaking, Octillery, Lumineon, Basculin, Alomomola; chain from Lanturn, Wailord)
    Spite (directly from Gengar, Mismagius, Banette, Spiritomb; chain from Weezing)

    RMs: 5
    Total: 8
    TM/HM (open)

    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM34 Sludge Wave
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM55 Scald
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM63 Embargo
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM89 U-turn
    TM90 Substitute
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf

    RMs: 19
    Total: 29


    RMs: 28
    Total: 56

    Currently have Volkraken in Water 2/Amorphous. Chose Water 2 pretty much exclusively because it contained both Remoraid/Octillery and Inkay/Malamar. Decided to slash with Amorphous to give Volkraken access to both the support moves it wants (Memento, Destiny Bond, etc) and Dark-type-ish flavor moves (Spite, Torment, etc).

    Will give more reasonings later.
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
    dwarfstar likes this.
  10. Qwilphish

    Qwilphish Mind over Matter
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    526
    WIP

    just posting for the idea of mine to be up

    Level-Up (open)

    ~- Aqua Jet
    ~- Water Gun
    04- Peck
    08- Ember
    11- Fire Spin
    15- Confuse Ray
    19- Dive
    22- Fury Attack
    26- Slam
    30- Brine
    33- Lava Plume
    37- Camouflage
    37- Flash
    41- Minimize
    45- Clear Smog
    48- Hydro Pump
    51- Fire Blast
    55- Healing Wish


    Egg Moves; Water 3 and Amorphous (open)

    Heal Bell
    Haze
    Constrict
    Pain Split
    Tickle
    Water Pulse
    Reflect Type

    Notable Combinations:
    Haze + Pain Split (Weezing)
    Heal Bell + Pain Split (Mismagius)
    Haze + Reflect Type + Tickle (+Water Pulse) (Tentacruel)


    TMs (open)

    06- Toxic
    10- Hidden Power
    11- Sunny Day
    15- Hyper Beam
    17- Protect
    18- Rain Dance
    21- Frustration
    27- Return
    32- Double Team
    33- Reflect
    34- Sludge Wave
    35- Flamethrower
    38- Fire Blast
    42- Facade
    44- Rest
    45- Attract
    48- Round
    50- Overheat
    55- Scald
    59- Incinerate
    61- Will-o-Wisp
    68- Giga Impact
    70- Flash
    87- Swagger
    88- Sleep Talk
    89- U-Turn
    100- Confide

    HM 03- Surf
    HM 05- Waterfall
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  11. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,133
    Final Submission

    The competitive aim of this movepool submission should be considered an exercise in restraint, since this is CAP is already uniquely powerful by stats and ability. I don’t want Volkraken to have much of an unpredictability factor, so I designed this movepool to limit the CAP to two very similar standard movesets with 2-5 viable items to choose from. This way, the opponent doesn’t have to spend too long guessing at what the CAP is going to do next and can simply react to the incoming assault. We gave this CAP specific goals at the outset of this process, and this movepool ensures it will be able to accomplish those goals without requiring a handful of checks or plausible counter-strategies for every crazy trick it can pull out of its hat. Yes, there are moves here that could find use on gimmick sets; however, they are not the sort of moves that could lure and eliminate the CAP’s own established threats, which is absolutely crucial for a Pokemon like this.

    Fire Blast and Hydro Pump are the primary tools here for dishing out damage, and I predict they will be Volkraken’s go-to options 90% of the time. To make this happen, I have included only a few options for rounding out viable movesets. U-turn is included for pivoting, which is very useful for the CAP when Latias and Lucario can immediately threaten many of its common switch-ins like Keldeo, Rotom-W, Blissey, and Chansey. Offensive coverage is limited to Power Gem, Flash Cannon, and Hidden Power, all of which are marginally useful at best and supply no surprise value to the Pokemon that can already switch relatively safely into the CAP’s STAB attacks, or at least require really good prediction in the case of Hidden Power.
    Volkraken @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf / Assault Vest (open)

    Fire Blast
    Hydro Pump
    Scald / Power Gem / Overheat
    U-turn / HP - Ice


    This is an easily understandable nuke/pivot set that accomplishes all of the Aegislash checking and switch-in punishing goals we’ve been pushing for since the Concept Assessment. The coverage choice in Power Gem is highly specific, not generically useful, and crucially unable to overwhelm our decided checks like Blissey, Chansey, Goodra, Keldeo, Latias, Rotom-W, and other bulky Waters, which I think is vitally important when considering our STABs hit with obscene levels of damage. U-turn is great for momentum grabbing if you don't want to get locked into the wrong move, while Hidden Power - Ice wrecks the Latis but preserves Water-types as complete resistors to the moveset.

    Choice Specs versions of this set will absolutely demolish switch-ins and faster Pokemon that cannot secure the KO. Choice Scarf would make a good cleaner against opponents that aren’t bulky enough to take both an Analytic-boosted hit on the switch and a follow-up attack. Assault Vest is the third viable choice here, which would beef up the CAP’s Special Defense enough to tank a few of Aegislash’s Shadow Balls while maintaing a strictly offensive presence.
    Will-o-Wisp and Scald are a tankier CAP’s best mid-game options for preparing a Swords Dance Lucario sweep (in addition to U-turn), and that’s really all it has available. Lava Plume is absent because, between Scald and Will-o-Wisp, the CAP will have plenty of opportunities to spread Burn status and I wanted to keep the focus of the Fire STAB on dishing out Aegislash KOs. A bulky Lava Plume / Scald / Will-o-Wisp set would be too generically tanky and would not support the core any more than a generic OU team; I'd rather each move on the set have a purpose so as to discourage creating a goodstuffs Burn spreader for general use. I suppose Reflect or Memento could be tacked onto a set as last-ditch options for giving the frail Lucario some breathing room against aggressive offensive teams, and as far as gimmick options go, they are at least pro-concept in that way.
    Volkraken @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry (open)

    Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    Scald
    Will-o-Wisp
    U-turn / Rest / Memento


    This set should be a pretty popular option for players, as it takes a more general supporting role for Latias and Lucario by spreading burns while launching Analytic-boosted STAB attacks. These moves also make Infiltrator a plausible option, as they can catch Substitute abusers off-guard and still apply the pressure that the Burn status provides. This set should be able to do a decent job of staying alive just long enough into the midgame to wear down troublesome opposing teams into +2 Extremespeed KO territory for Lucario or sacrificing itself at low enough HP to give Lucario a decent chance of setting up against aggressive offensive teams.

    This set would more likely than not employ a bulkier EV spread, so Leftovers would be the preferred item for providing generic and continuous healing for teams that rely more on Volkraken’s ability to tank certain threatening blows. A second option would be Chesto Berry, in which case this set would work a lot like Rotom-W's ChestoRest set, launching attacks and spreading burns and forgoing turn-by-turn healing in exchange for a one-time full heal from damage and status.

    The Movepool:

    Flavor-wise, I wanted to put as much of the personality of the art design into the movepool as possible by giving the impression that the CAP is a menacing creature from the deep abyss. This idea is mostly carried out in the Level-Up list, although the Egg Moves do a lot to help out in this regard. There is for sure a “hidden third typing” present in the art design (Dark-type), so I have included a healthy amount of Dark-type moves in the movepool that reflect this sinister attitude of the art design.

    Vampire squids don’t actually produce ink like other squids and octopi, instead relying on their bioluminescence for evading predators and whatnot. I think this is a very cool and unique attribute of the CAP’s design, so I wanted to emphasize Volkraken’s use of bioluminescence over more traditional cephalopod-related inky moves. As a result, the movepool is devoid of any Poison-type or ink-based moves (like Octazooka) and more focused on Volkraken’s physical traits.

    The CAP’s Water typing is very present in its Level-Up pool; being an aquatic creature, I thought it was appropriate to accentuate the Water moves there, as well as in the Egg list. As far as Volkraken’s Fire-typing goes, bringing out that aspect of a deep-sea squid was actually quite difficult. I’ve excluded Lava Plume and all physical Fire-type attacks (generally because they require prolonged exposed flames or lava or whatever, as far as I imagine them working); however, the typing is absolutely present enough in the Level-Up and TM lists to bring that crucial characteristic across (I still think the CAP should be switched to Water/Fire typing, based on the art design). There are 11 Water-type moves in this movepool and 9 Fire moves, so the overall picture should appear smooth and balanced, with enough flavor enhancements to bring our vampire squid to life, so to speak.

    Level-Up (open)
    (17 moves, 8 RMs)

    0 - Constrict
    0 - Flash
    0 - Bite
    0 - Leech Life
    0 - Reflect
    0 - Water Gun
    4 - Reflect
    9 - Water Gun
    14 - Whirlpool
    18 - Fire Spin
    23 - Flame Burst
    28 - Scald
    32 - Destiny Bond
    37 - Dive
    42 - Power Gem
    46 - Aqua Ring
    51 - Heat Wave
    56 - Hydro Pump
    66 - Memento

    In the early levels, I wanted to play around with the whole “vampire squid” angle, mostly by creating the impression of a Pokemon whose natural predatory behavior revolves around trapping the opponent (victim? prey?), disorienting it, and slowly draining away its health, like a vampire. To show this, Volkraken learns Constrict (trap), Flash (disorient), Bite, and Leech Life (drain) as starting moves. This same idea reappears a short while later when the CAP begins learning more advanced STAB techniques with Whirlpool and Fire Spin, which sort of accomplish all of trapping, disorienting, and health draining all at once. Water Gun is added in between as a great low-level STAB that builds into Scald and Hydro Pump as the movepool progresses.

    There is a transition into a more traditional move progression starting at L23, as moves start getting more powerful the more the CAP grows. It would be a crime not to include Scald in the Level-Up pool, so I included it in the learnset after Flame Burst, as though the Poke’s hot bursts of flames begin to boil the frigid waters of the deep sea. Remaining STAB attacks in the Level-Up list continue to grow in power: Dive is a flavorful choice that reflects Volkraken’s ability to thrive in the deepest parts of the abyss (as is Aqua Ring); Heat Wave works for a high-powered underwater Fire move because the CAP can conceivably have hot gasses inside its body that keep it from being crushed by the pressure of the abyss, or something; and Hydro Pump displays a mastery of its Water STAB.

    Also included in the latter stages of the Level-Up progression is a bit of a "death" theme, in the spirit of vampirism and that hidden Dark typing. Destiny Bond, while not being very competitively useful, speaks to the vampiric quality of turning people into vampires, while Memento touches upon Volkraken's relentlessness even in death (or fainting; don’t want to get too morbid here). And yes, there is a 6-6-6 in there with the levels at which the CAP learns Hydro Pump and Memento.

    Another theme I wanted to touch on with the Level-Up flavor was the CAP’s bioluminescence and how it uses its glowing parts both offensively and defensively when facing a threat. I put Flash in here as a L0 move, along with Reflect, to showcase a young CAP’s defensive use of its bioluminescence, first to blind the opponent and second to mask its escape route. This luminosity theme returns with a sudden burst of offensive power at L23 with Flame Burst, then again with Power Gem, CAP’s most exotic use of this ability, to finish the theme in the Level-Up pool.

    I also threw in a couple subtle connections to other Pokemon families I felt were spiritually similar to this CAP. Reflect is learned at L4, which is when the Inkay/Malamar family learns it (they are also modeled after the vampire squid). The CAP also learns Dive at L37, the same level as Gorebyss and Huntail, which I think is a fun connection for the three of them to share, as they are all modeled after various deep-sea creatures and are presumably most comfortable at the deepest depths of the ocean.
    Egg (open)
    (Water 1 / Water 2 Groups, 6 moves, 1 RM)

    Aqua Jet - Alomomola, Azumarill, Basculin, Blastoise, Carracosta, Clawitzer, Crawdaunt, Dewgong, Dragonite, Empoleon, Feraligatr, Floatzel, Golduck, Kabutops, Luvdisc, Masquerain, Qwilfish, Sharpedo
    Assurance - Sharpedo
    Captivate - Gorebyss, Luvdisc, Milotic
    Scary Face - Basculin, Feraligatr, Huntail, Masquerain, Sharpedo
    Tickle - Alomomola, Azumarill, Lapras, Ludicolo, Lumineon, Milotic, Wailord, Whiscash
    Water Pulse - Alomomola, Blastoise, Carracosta, Clawitzer, Corsola, Dewgong, Dragalge, Dragonite, Feraligatr, Gastrodon, Golduck, Gorebyss, Greninja, Huntail, Kingdra, Lanturn, Lapras, Luvdisc, Manaphy, Mantine, Milotic, Octillery, Omastar, Pelipper, Politoed, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Seaking, Seismitoad, Slowbro, Slowking, Swanna, Wailord, Walrein, Whiscash

    There must be some new rule at GameFreak because there were no Pokemon introduced in Gen. VI with more than 7 Egg moves (the average is 4 or 5), so to follow that precedent I have only included 6 moves here. Thankfully, I didn’t need anything remotely competitive from this list, so it wasn’t too hard to parse it down to a few flavorful moves. I have also only listed parents that can obtain these moves in Gen. VI; since Egg Move illegalities no longer exist due to the changes in move relearning, there’s no need to list past generation learning methods or any clutter like that.

    Flavor-wise, I wanted to make sure to touch on the various themes I tried to establish in the Level-Up pool. Assurance follows up on the hidden Dark-typing theme, and also subtly hints at Volkraken’s primary ability, Analytic, as it nets a power boost of its own for moving after its target in certain scenarios. Captivate, at least in my mind, plays off of the idea of the CAP using its bioluminescent parts to distract its opponents. Scary Face was a must-have; I needed to address the “false face” of the art design somewhere in the movepool, and this was the perfect place to do it. Tickle is a common move for tentacled Pokemon to have access to, so I didn’t want to leave Volkraken out on all the fun. Finally, there are the two STAB moves, Aqua Jet and Water Pulse, which don’t have any competitive value for the CAP but do fit very flavorfully with a marine creature that already darts through the deep seas shooting beams of water and whatnot.
    TM/HM (open)
    (36 moves, 22 RMs)

    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM11 - Sunny Day
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM17 - Protect
    TM18 - Rain Dance
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM27 - Return
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM33 - Reflect
    TM35 - Flamethrower
    TM38 - Fire Blast
    TM41 - Torment
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM46 - Thief
    TM48 - Round
    TM50 - Overheat
    TM54 - False Swipe
    TM55 - Scald
    TM56 - Fling
    TM59 - Incinerate
    TM60 - Quash
    TM61 - Will-o-Wisp
    TM66 - Payback
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM70 - Flash
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM88 - Sleep Talk
    TM89 - U-turn
    TM90 - Substitute
    TM91 - Flash Cannon
    TM100 - Confide
    HM03 - Surf
    HM05 - Waterfall

    The TM list is where the CAP learns most of its Fire-type moves: Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Incinerate, Overheat, Sunny Day, and Will-o-Wisp round out the bunch along with Fire Spin, Flame Burst, and Heat Wave from the Level-Up list. The CAP can also learn the bulk of its Dark-type attacks here: Fling, Thief, Torment, Payback, and Quash.

    I thought Payback would be a neat flavor nod to Volkraken’s Analytic ability, considering its base power doubles if the target has already moved that turn, and Analytic would boost that power to even higher levels. I like to imagine that Volkraken has come to possess the Analytic ability from its evolutionary adaptation to its pitch-black natural habitat (bottom of the ocean), so the fact that Payback is a Dark-type move makes this flavor element very elegant the way I see it. Within the same theme, Volkraken learns Assurance as an Egg move, which is another Dark-type move that does double damage when the CAP moves after the target (if the target has already received damage that turn).

    Because Reflect, Scald, and Flash are repeated from the Level-Up pool, that means there are 33 moves and 20 RMs unique to this list.
    Summary (open)
    (56 moves, 27 RMs)

    Special Attacking RMs (10):

    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower / Flame Burst
    Flash Cannon
    Heat Wave
    Hidden Power
    Hydro Pump
    Overheat
    Power Gem
    Scald
    Surf

    Physical Attacking RMs (6):

    Aqua Jet
    Facade
    Frustration / Return
    Payback
    U-turn
    Waterfall

    Non-Attacking RMs (11):

    Destiny Bond
    Memento
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Reflect
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Swagger
    Toxic
    Will-o-Wisp
    ganj4lF and dwarfstar like this.
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    Messages:
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    O.k, its time to discuss this issue quickly.

    A number of movepools are decided to include Substitute and Pain Split, despite my earlier concerns. This is, as a rule, totally ok, as in most cases, these users have attempted to justify themselves with solid arguments. That said, there is a particular set people don't seem to be quite aware of that is not getting suitable discussion with relevance to Substitute / Pain SPlit, as much as I would like. The set is as follows:

    -Scald
    -Substitute
    -Pain Split
    -Toxic

    Potentially with Leftovers, and a 252 HP / 252 SDef or a 252 Def / 252 SDef spread, although EV spread would very likely be flexible.

    The issue I have, with the above set, is that it totally destroys Rotom-W, Lati@s, and Blissey / Chansey with the above moves. If Latios lacks Roost, it has no chance at winning. Rotom-W can spam VOlt Switch, its true, but it still gets Toxic'd the moment it switches in, and afterwards has to constantly take residual damage from Scalds / Pain Splits until it goes down. Strictly speaking, it doesn't really win. Blissey and Chansey might be able to PP stall the set, but unfortunately they actually need Heal Bell in order to actually attempt to PP stall (if they lack it they lose), and even if they have it, as shown in Deck Knights scenario, both Blissey and Chansey are forced out anyway, letting something else get Toxic'd. Furthermore, the amount of pokemon that can actually switch in on the above set, is really limited to Magic Guard Clefable, Lum DD Dragonite, and maybe one or two other mons that I'm forgetting. Its this set that concerns me, not a "Sub / Split / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump" set. If arguments could address the above set, that would be valued very much.
    Dragonblaze052 likes this.
  13. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Obligatory comparison spreadsheet:

    Click here for many cookies

    A few minor notes that are apparent from looking at the spreadsheet:

    EpicUmbreon29 you have exceeded the RM limit by four moves, and a few of those "flavour" RMs look somewhat suspect, but I'll come back to that later in this post. Also yes, Counter is disallowed.

    Salt the Flesh while you have included Overheat in your movepool it is not present in your summary list of all RMs, so I assumed you were including it. Even with this, however, you are still apparently overestimating your number of RMs by 1. Not sure if you want to re-check.

    Kappaten your RM count appears to be overestimated; note that Return+Frustration and Flamethrower+Flame Burst count together as one RM

    Darth Missingno. your movepool lacks Facade.

    ---------------

    Some other notes:
    • Do be aware that Confide, Attract, and Double Team are generally present on every ordinary Pokemon, so these should really be included; I'm not sure why the OP lists Round, Giga Impact and Hyper Beam for required but not these three. Protect, Swagger and Substitute are also found on all ordinary Pokemon, for sake of reference.
    • I don't know what the deal is with moves being included that aren't listed as Allowed in the OP but every single submission thus far seems to be doing it for some reason. As a reminder, any move not explicitly allowed is disallowed by default. So if the movepool leader wants to retroactively make Aqua Jet and all the rest of the moves put forward allowed, we can perhaps save ourselves a great deal of confusion, as there are a variety of supposedly disallowed moves being put forward.
    • 10 movepools thus far for a vampire squid and none contain Leech Life. I am a sad panda.
    I'l give feedback on individual movepools when I get the chance. Cheers.
    EternalSnowman likes this.
  14. Toebag

    Toebag

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    Final Submission

    Bold = RM
    * = Required
    + = Repeated


    Level Up moves (open)

    1 Constrict
    1 Leer
    1 Mud-Slap
    1 Soak
    4 Bubble
    8 Water Sport
    12 Baton Pass
    15 Scary Face
    19 Poison Fang
    23 Captivate
    26 Rain Dance
    30 Clear Smog
    32 Scald

    35 Spite
    38 Flamethrower
    42 Memento

    45 Haze
    49 Spike Cannon
    54 Hydro Pump
    61 Overheat


    20 Moves Total
    8 Restricted Moves
    Level Up Reasoning (open)

    I tried to keep the Level Up moves fairly balanced and flavourful towards the artwork whilst still getting in some key moves, for example Baton Pass, Scald, Memento. The reason why the moves looks so awful (until arguably level 38) is because with a typing like water/fire and the great stats behind it, GameFreak logic dictates it would have a really mediocre level up movepool.

    So to start with, it learns Constrict, a fairly standard move for any Pokemon with tentacles. Leer is a secondary staple, more fitting than growl, since it does have a rather unnerving gaze. Mud-Slap through to Water Sport are flavour and typical low-level moves. Level 12 it gets Baton Pass, the first move that could potentially feature on a set. Moving on to three more flavour moves in the form of Scary Face, Poison Fang and Captivate. Poison Fang fits Volkraken rather well, implicitly playing on the fact that it's a 'Vampire' squid. Scary Face is similarly supporting the vampire aspect, but first and foremost suit the intimidating facial markings on its body. Captivate might seem an odd choice, but bio-luminescence has many functions, one of which includes attracting mates.

    Level 26 is where Volkraken’s moveset begins to see some moves with potential for competitive use; Rain Dance, Clear Smog and Scald all follow in conjunction. Spite at level 35, the reasoning behind it is that I perceive Volkraken to be a bit of a troublemaker. It is just another harmless flavour move, but furthermore, it paves way for the inclusion of Memento without that seeming like an odd, out of place move.

    Finally at level 38, a fire move – Flamethrower! The reason behind such a late inclusion of a fire move is because I didn’t feel the need to waste early level moveslots on including Ember/Flame Burst, etc. I refer to my first paragraph in regards to GameFreak logic, that a water/fire pokemon probably has a poor movepool and a limited choice of STABs. This late fire move also gives any potential pre-evolution room to be pure water type. Of course Volkraken may end up being a single stage Pokemon, but I digress.

    Memento at level 42 since it typically falls as a late level move. Haze at 45 an inferior option to Clear Smog but I wanted to include it somewhere in the movepool so there is an alternative choice. Level 49 it learns Spike Cannon, another flavour move complementing the barbs on the tentacles.

    Bringing the level up moves to a close are the big competitively-viable, hard-hitting STABs Hydro Pump (54) and Overheat (61) are Volkraken’s penultimate and ultimate move respectively. Its full potential has been unlocked, and training the thing was worth the pain of levelling up!

    EDIT: Removed Wring Out in favour of Spike Cannon, people were kind enough to provide calculations that I couldn't get a hold of earlier!


    TM Moves (open)

    TM06 Toxic *
    TM10 Hidden Power *
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam *
    TM17 Protect *
    TM18 Rain Dance +
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration *
    TM27 Return *
    TM32 Double Team *
    TM33 Reflect
    TM35 Flamethrower
    +
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Façade *
    TM44 Rest *
    TM45 Attract *
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round*
    TM54 False Swipe
    TM55 Scald +
    TM56 Fling
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact *
    TM70 Flash
    TM84 Poison Jab
    TM87 Swagger
    *
    TM88 Sleep Talk *
    TM89 U-Turn
    TM90 Substitute
    *
    TM91 Flash Cannon
    TM100 Confide *
    HM03 Surf
    HM04 Strength

    34 Total Moves
    16 Restricted Moves (discounted repeated RMs - not sure if I'm supposed to do that, someone let me know)
    TM Move Reasoning (open)

    A lot of the moves on there are required/expected, so I won’t go through them all. Competitively viable moves include Reflect, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Scald, Will-O-Wisp, U-turn, Flash Cannon, Surf and Substitute.
    Fire Blast is included as that was what all initial calculations were based on, and it’s probably going to be Volkraken’s most used move. Will-O-Wisp was included for a reliable burn against physical attackers. Flash Cannon is my answer to fairy pokemon, still keeping our checks and counters safely where we want them. Substitute is included because even though it can create 101 subs hindering the blobs, it is on every TM learning pokemon, and as much as I may want to omit it, it didn’t seem right.

    Notable flavour TMs include Thief, Fling and False Swipe, all capitalising on my idea that Volkraken is a cheeky so-and-so, and providing support for the reasoning behind Memento. Flash is included because of the bioluminescence attribute of Vampire Squids and the fire typing we gave it. Poison Jab is on too many pokemon with limbs, so it seemed an appropriate addition.


    Egg moves (Water 3) (open)

    Stealth Rock (Omastar, Corsola, Cradily, Armaldo, Carracosta, Archeops)
    Power Gem (Starmie, Corsola)
    Spike Cannon (Cloyster, Omastar, Corsola)
    Aqua Ring (Tentacruel, Cloyster, Corsola)
    Bide (Kingler, Omastar, Corsola, Carracosta)

    5 Total moves
    2 Restricted Moves
    Egg Move Reasoning (open)

    Volkraken fits in the egg group Water 3 rather well, the kind of Pokemon that reside in this egg group are deep ocean floor dwellers (and a couple of oddities Archeops and Drapion anyone?) The Vampire Squid resides at levels that light cannot reach, so it made sense to me for Volkraken to join this egg group.

    I deemed it unnecessary to add a secondary egg group, as this egg group also provided everything I wanted in terms of egg moves to pass on. Stealth Rock and Power Gem are the two particular moves I refer to. I needed to fit these in somewhere, and the egg moves were the only place suitable.
    The remainder of the moves are all flavour. Spike Cannon is pretty much a staple move amongst half the pokemon the Water 3 group. Aqua Ring is semi-viable in a competitive sense; however I don’t see it having much usage, if any at all.


    EDIT: Decided to remove Helping Hand and Entrainment to stick with the Gen6 limited egg moves.


    Notable Exclusions (open)

    You may have noticed by now, I have made the choice of omitting some fairly popular/controversial moves. I’ll go through them one by one and explain why.

    Sludge Wave is not on my move set because Flash Cannon hits fairies super-effectively and is resisted by the bulky waters we want to be checked by, and thereby sticking to the threat list we set – the omission is basically insurance to make sure this happens.

    Pain Split is omitted because of SubSplit shenanigans (which probably won’t even break Volkraken). However I saw more reason to omit Pain Split over Sub since every TM learner gets Sub. It was a case of one or the other, and for me Pain Split lost.

    Status healing is not on the list because I don’t feel that Volkraken needs to have it, sure it would help the core but he can already absorbs burns for Lucario (in my opinion the most dangerous status the core would have to face), furthermore flavour-wise they just don’t fit on it.

    Lava Plume is omitted due to the already overwhelming methods of burning with scald and WoW covering both water and fire types. If however someone likes my moveset but thinks Lava Plume is a 'competitive necessity' that's missing, I would have no qualms about fitting it in somewhere.


    Summary (open)

    Competitive Moves Summary (open)

    Overheat/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Hydro Pump/Scald/Surf: These are the usable STABs provided in my movepool.
    Flash Cannon is included because even though Fire Blast does more damage to fairy types, this a more accurate/reliable answer them. The reason I chose steel coverage over poison coverage is because, similarly, I don't want to give Volkraken a more accurate/reliable option against our checks and counters as well as fairies.
    Power Gem is included to OHKO Gyarados before it Mega-evolves, if the chance arises, and to a lesser extent, it should OHKO Dragonite after Stealth Rock damage. It does also deal with Talonflame, Charizard Y and Volcarona, but then again so does Hydro Pump.

    In terms of damaging attacks and coverage, I wanted to keep a degree of predictability for Volkraken, so I gave it the STABs it needed and the bare minimum coverage required. These four types should ensure that this happens; dual STABs are effectively a given, so the only question any opponent would have is what are the other two moves - coverage or support?

    The answer to the latter half of that question;

    U-turn is a good way to get Lucario in against pokemon faster than itself without having Lucario take damage. With a choice band it deals 50-60% to Lati@s, but let's face it, choice banded Volkraken would be a waste of the pokemon based on my movepool (no physical STABs).

    Will-O-Wisp, good reliable method of spreading burns, in theory, it cripples any sub 95 speed physical attackers. As an added bonus it infiltrates King's Shield, if Aegislash risks scouting to see moves or find out if it's potentially choice locked.

    Reflect could be considered a way of temporarily buffing its own physical defense, but if it's used in conjunction with U-turn/Baton Pass it gives Lucario a good chance of setting up.

    Memento is included as Volkraken's sacrificial final attempt at supporting the core. -2 att and -2 sp.att gives Lucario opportunity to set up or Latias opportunity to safely defog hazards or set up Calm Mind.

    Stealth Rock was included after much hesitation. With it Volkraken becomes one of the best offensive rock setters out there, but we wanted our core to be as self-sufficient as possible. I would probably have excluded it, if not for the fact that Lucario really appreciates hazard damage to help it clean up.

    Clear Smog/Haze were both included to deter Pokemon setting up on Volkraken, especially Calm Mind users like Clefable and Sylveon. It also helps deal with Baton Pass teams.

    Other Moves of note are; Substitute, Aqua Ring, Baton Pass - SubBP would benefit Lucario and the core mostly. Aqua Ring was mainly included for flavour, however, it can still be Baton Passed - maybe finding a niche set somewhere down the line.
    Rain Dance/Sunny Day; Volkraken could provide Sun/Rain support to other members of its team (not the core), furthermore, it helps itself by boost one of its STABs at the cost of the other.
    Moves not worth explaining but still competitively viable Protect, Swagger, Rest, Sleep Talk, Toxic and Hidden Power.


    Flavour Moves Summary (open)

    Spite, Torment, Thief, Fling; these ghost and dark type moves are inspired by the malevolent/intimidating artwork. Furthermore they nicely complement the inclusion of Memento.

    Poison Fang, Scary Face and again, Spite and Torment to a lesser extent, are moves that focus on the 'vampire' part of the vampire squid. It's mostly self explanatory, Poison Fang and Scary Face are physical attributes of vampires. Vampires strike fear in others, and often hold malicious intentions (spite) towards their enemies. They are also often portrayed as Tormented souls, regretful and longing to be free of their curse.

    Spike Cannon, Bide, Constrict, Flash, Captivate, Attract and again, Scary Face, all contribute flavour to Volkraken's artwork and the biological features of a vampire squid. Spike Cannon is because of the numerous spikes on its tentacles. Cephalopods Bide their time in when catching their prey and can Constrict to kill them. Flash, Captivate and Attract are all supportive of the bio-luminescent features of Volkraken. As well as for warning off enemies, bio-luminescence can be used to attract/captivate mates.
    Finally, Scary Face is a direct nod to the intimidating facial markings on the body of Volkraken's artwork.


    Even taking into account the moves omitted, I believe I have created a movepool that gives Volkraken the bare minimum of coverage needed, allowing for the degree of predictability which is sought after. Yet plenty of options still remain when it comes to filling in the last couple of move slots, whether it is further coverage or the potential utility moves available. In my movepool Volkraken has access to very few STABs, nonetheless they are still the most important ones - including physical STABs such as Flare Blitz, Aqua Jet and Waterfall would be a waste of RM space. Additionally the typing we gave it consists of possibly the two most opposing types in the game; it made little sense to give Volkraken access to every decent fire and water move.

    To conclude, variety (of STABs and of coverage) had to be sacrificed for a movepool that adheres to the concept, yet still have appropriate coverage and a natural balance between competitive and flavour.


    59 Total moves
    26 Restricted Moves
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
    Albacore likes this.
  15. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    For the record, I've got Leech Life as a L0 move in my Level-Up pool (and V4Lover has it in the Level-Up pool as well) and I completely agree it's perfect for the flavor of this Pokemon. Also, physical STAB moves were probably not discussed due to lack of competitive value (45 Atk...). Although you do have a technical point in that regard, it is still entirely within the power of the Movepool Leader (iirc) to allow these moves as uncompetitive RMs, which I believe is what ginganinja is doing, as precisely zero physical STABs are present in either the Allowed or Disallowed lists (ginga feel free to clarify this point if I am putting words in your mouth).

    EDIT: one more point I'd like to throw out there is that Gen. VI Pokemon have very few Egg moves compared to Pokes from previous generations. I'm not exactly sure why, but the highest Egg move count I could find was 7, shared by Chesnaught and Hawlucha (the average appears to be 4 or maybe 5 Egg moves). If I wanted to make an "accurate" Gen. VI movepool, I would definitely keep the Egg move count below 7.
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  16. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

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    The only RM on my movepool submission not specifically allowed in the OP is Nature Power, which I spoke with Ginganinja with beforehand and was allowed by them.
  17. Ramplestilskin

    Ramplestilskin

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    So I don't really understand : are RM physical attacks (below than 80BP) allowed or disallowed, since there hasn't ben any discussion on this and it is not really viable (bar aqua-jet may be)?
    And yeah some movepool submissions already had leech life, I don't know why you said such a thing (even if all movepool submission should have it imo).
  18. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    I must have missed those somehow. Apologies.

    Yes, you're entirely correct, which was why I wanted ginga or somebody to specify this somehow, or in some post, even if it's just "all physical flavour moves are fine" (and even then Extrasensory is in one movepool and I don't know whether or not this needs discussing, I doubt it but even so) - the disallowed list also included the statement "all coverage moves over 80 BP" which would theoretically disallow Gunk Shot and Flare Blitz even though their damage output against anything is pitiful.

    If nothing else, just to nip this in the bud before it becomes painful.

    Even with previous generations taken into account, the average number of egg moves is around 5; generally speaking they tend to have fewer egg moves because there aren't TM moves lost in generation transition, as was the case for Bullet Seed and Focus Punch on Breloom, et cetera. But yes, I agree with the point made here.

    ----

    As a last note, a couple of movepools seemed to be pointing out legal move combinations, which is slightly bizarre given that there shouldn't be any illegal move combinations at all in these movepools due to the new breeding mechanics, unless it relies on an event move for a breeding partner from a previous generation or something bizarre like that.
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Confirming this is correct, I know I previously HAD Physical STAB move options in the allowed column, and its likely it was just an error in transcribing a final allowed Attacking RM list. As a CAP mod bmb, you are entirely welcome to edit that back into the OP, physical STAB options are allowed. You have my sincere apologies for this oversight.

    EDIT

    Lol whoops, thought you were a mod xD
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  20. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    um

    well anyway yeah if an actual cap mod could do that that would settle any petty quibbles I have on that front

    although extrasensory should really be disallowed unless ginga says otherwise, since that does actually seem to have some competitive application
  21. paintseagull

    paintseagull pink wingull
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    Hello! Let me remind you of this handy post and this detailed guide and specifically this plot:
    [​IMG]
    So yeah, 7 is on the high side so be careful about going over it. Highest is 13. Also some people probably have an unrealistically low number of total moves.
  22. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    There are a few moves that aren't Restricted Moves but are still conceptually relevant on this Pokemon and can hit our counters pretty hard. Right now, 80 BP moves such as Extrasensory and Tri Attack are not explicitly disallowed but clearly do not fit in with the conclusions drawn in the Threats Discussion and Attacking/Non-Attacking Moves Discussions. Hitting Keldeo, a Pokemon that's supposed to fare reasonably well against Volkraken, for 80 BP super-effective damage does not comport with the conclusions drawn in the Non-Attacking Moves discussion. Psyshock is disallowed for how well it does against Keldeo and the blobs, but Extrasensory hits Keldeo just as hard. Tri Attack, while not hitting any counters harder than our STABs normally would, still hits Latios and Latias over 95% as hard as Fire Blast and Hydro Pump but with perfect accuracy and a greater status chance. Although these moves aren't explicitly disallowed, they're a very hard sell.

    I'd like to second ginganinja's point about SubSplit Toxic CAP18 and an area that may have been overlooked: the potential for Toxic to be anti-concept in tandem with other moves such as Substitute and Pain Split. Lati@s, Rotom-W, and Keldeo hate Toxic, and Substitute+Toxic+Pain Split means that Volkraken will be able to get Toxic status on just about anything it wants before the Substitute is broken, then heal some of the Substitute damage with Pain Split. This set absolutely demolishes Latias, who cannot do 75% to a 252 HP/ 0 SDef Volkraken with Life Orb Draco Meteor. Essentially, bulky Volkraken can drop to about 10% or 15% health againist Latias, Toxic it, and then heal its damage back with Pain Split. The end result of Latias switching into SubSplit Volkraken is Latias ending up badly Poisoned and Volkraken ending up with either high HP or low HP and a Substitute. Latios fares similarly, but Volkraken will have to invest more in bulk to achieve the same result.

    Sub/Pain Split/ Toxic/Scald is a set that specifically targets Volkraken's counters while not performing against the Pokemon Volkraken needs to beat. Fairies beat this set. Aegislash beats this set. Latios, Latias, Keldeo, and the blobs either outright lose to or are heavily hampered by this set.
  23. Ramplestilskin

    Ramplestilskin

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    Here is my contribution :
    Bold = RM
    Italic=Doubles

    Level-up (open)

    00-Lava Plume
    00-Haze
    01-Leech Life
    01-Wrap
    01-Bubble
    04-Leer
    08-Astonish
    13-Smokescreen
    17-Camouflage
    21-Water Pulse
    25-Octazooka
    25-Spike Cannon
    30-Pin Missile
    33-Flame Burst (doubles with Flamethrower)
    38-Mud Bomb
    42-Mean Look
    45-Refresh (doubles with Aromatherapy)
    48-Dive
    52-Scary Face
    56-Inferno
    60-Hydro Pump

    RMs : 3
    Total moves : 21
    Level-up moves reasoning (open)

    Here are the STAB moves, mainly RM that cannot be learned by TM. Lava plume is at level 0, because I consider it's a move that only the evolution could have access to. Moves are learned by an usual order : first very weak moves such as leech life/wrap/bubble, then some support (but still useless) moves and a better STAB at level 21. I am considering the octopus evolves at level 25, so it learns two caracteristical moves at this time. Flavor is based on several points : first, Volkraken has spikes on its tentacles, that's why I put Spike canon(amonistar also does), and pin missile. The design of the face made me choose moves such as astonish, leer, mean look and scary face. As it is an octopus, I give it octazooka. An octopus creates ink, so it made me choose stuff like haze (same as tentacruel), smokescreen and camouflage to a lesser extent. As a vampire, it had to learn leech life. Other moves are moves usually seen on water/fire-types, mud bomb is a personal choice because I easily see it send a mud bomb, and inferno because I wanted it to be inkferno. This movepool is entirely flavor-based, as the only RMs are Lava plume and Hydro pump, common attacks on such a pokemon. Note that it starts and keeps learning in-game viable moves from level 42.
    This movepool is largely inspired by Golbat, Tentacruel, Malamar, Omastar and Octillery's ones.

    TM/HM (open)

    06-Toxic
    09-Venoshock
    10-Hidden Power
    11-Sunny Day
    15-Hyper Beam
    17-Protect
    18-Rain Dance
    21-Frustration
    27-Return (doubles with frustration)
    32-Double Team
    33-Reflect
    35-Flamethrower
    38-Fire Blast
    42-Facade
    44-Rest
    45-Attract
    48-Round
    55-Scald
    59-Incinerate
    61-Will-o-Wisp
    68-Giga Impact
    70-Flash
    87-Swagger
    88-Sleep Talk
    89-U-turn
    90-Substitute
    91-Flash Cannon
    100-Confide

    03-Surf

    RMs : 18
    Total Moves : 29
    TM/HM reasoning (open)
    Most of those moves are required ones, ore STAB ones.I added flash cannon because it provides a great coverage for what it's supposed to check, namely fairy-types. However, I was originallly against Sludge Wave, so I didn't put it there. U-turn is a really usefull move in this core, switching in Latias or Lucario given the situation, and it doesn't deal great damage with its pitifull attacl stat. To me, Sunny day and Rain dance were mandatory. I also added Flash and Venoshock as flavor moves.

    egg moves : group Monster/Water 1 (open)

    -Heat Wave via Charizard
    -Power Gem via Slowking
    -Clear Smog via Gastrodon
    -Baton Pass via Gorebyss
    -Aromatherapy via Meganium
    -Memento via Gastrodon

    RMs : 6
    Egg moves reasoning (open)
    You can see the choices I made in this part, as these are moves that aren't TM/HM and that doesn't really fit with Volkraken. As you can see, I didn't put Sludge Wave neither Overheat, these are two too powerfull moves in my opinion. Power gem is, as flash cannon, great for coverage and not that powerfull. That shows I wanted Volkraken to be an fast and offensive pivot, but not too powerfull.
    Between Healing wish and Memento, I prefered Memento because Latias already has access to healing wish and does this job very well. Aromatherapy and Baton pass allow it to work even better as a pivot, because it "heals" and give free turns to our partners, sometimes giving them a great substitute. Clear smog is a great attack with infiltrator, and can add some variety in this core, making it less predictable to some extent.
    Finally, I'll say that most of the moves I didn't add were non-attacking moves, such as Stealth Rock. SR is not a good idea on this pokemon, this was and is my opinion, as it is the best way to give it a lot of viability outside of the core.
    The egg groups contains water 1, because a water-type pokemon has to be part of a water group, and this one gave the largest number of possibilities. Monster is for Heat wave/Aromatherapy, because Aromatherapy/Heal bell can't be given by any of the three Water groups, and I had to find another one. Besides, a kraken is a monster, so that's not totally against flavor.


    Total RMs : 27
    Total Moves : 57

    I didn't know if Pin missile was allowed, and I found it was flavor-wise, so I put it in the movepool. However, if it is banned, I can suppress it.
    I also want to point out that I realized I made the second pokemon having access to both BP+Mean look, so once again, if it's too powerful or whatever, I can delete Mean look from the movepool.
    I hope I crafted a good movepool, that's the first time I make it so if you have any suggestions, questions or disagreements, tell me :)
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  24. The Pizza Man

    The Pizza Man

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    551
    Final Submission

    Key:
    !!= RM
    != Repeated/Outclassed RM
    ?= Repeated Non Rm

    Level up (open)

    1 Constrict
    1 Leech Life
    5 Water Gun
    14 Ember
    19 Bubble Beam
    22 Bite
    28 Incinerate
    34 Flame Wheel
    38 Power Gem!!
    41 Scald!!
    44 Flame Burst!(Outclassed by Flamethrower)
    48 Hydro Pump!!
    52 Scary Face
    58 Lava Plume!!
    61 Memento!!

    16 Moves
    5 RM


    Level up reasoning (open)

    I mainly based the movepool level orderings off of a combination of Tentacruel (I know it's a jellyfish but it has many similarities to Octopi), Malamar, and Octillery. It typically learns its fire moves in latter levels, because it seems to be more of a Water type if you ask me, so It shouldn't get its typical fire moves right off the bat. Constrict is in there to resemble the other octopus Pokémon and Leech life and Bite are in there for a vampire feel, especially leech life because if you look at its Japanese name it is Suck Blood, and a vampire should be able to do that. Power Gem is on here because of the glowing lights on Volkraken's body, and I felt that it would make no sense not to have it there.

    Egg Moves (Water 1 and Water 2) (open)

    Aura Sphere!! (From Blastoise and Clawitzer)
    Camouflage (From Stunfisk, Dragalge, Corsola, Greninja, and Malamar)
    Clear Smog!! (From Golduck, Kingdra, Wailord, and Gastrodon)
    Octazooka (From Octillery and Kingdra)
    Stealth Rock!! (From Omastar, Kabutops, Corsola, Swampert, Relicanth, Empoleon, Bibarel, Seismitoad, Carracosta, and Stunfisk)

    5 Moves
    3 RM

    Egg Move reasoning (open)

    I chose Water 1 and Water 2 because those are the Egg Groups Octillery and Malamar belong to, which are the 2 Octopus Pokémon. Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, and Stealth Rock are on here because they do make sense flavor-wise, but not enough to be learnt in the level-up movepool, which Nintendo seems to do with most of their Pokémon. Camouflage and Octazooka are on here because they both come from octopus Pokémon, which is what where are trying to make our Pokémon, especially Octazooka. Camouflage also somewhat fits with our vampire theme (Camouflage being used by turning into a bat anybody?)

    TM/HMs (open)

    TM06 Toxic!!
    TM10 Hidden Power!!
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect!!
    TM18 Rain Dance!!
    TM21 Frustration!!
    TM27 Return *
    TM32 Double Team
    TM33 Reflect!!
    TM35 Flamethrower!!
    TM38 Fire Blast!!
    TM42 Facade!!
    TM44 Rest!!
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat!!
    TM55 Scald!
    TM59 Incinerate?
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp!!
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM87 Swagger!!
    TM88 Sleep Talk!!
    TM89 U-Turn!!
    TM90 Substitute!!
    TM91 Flash Cannon!!
    TM100 Confide
    HM03 Surf!!
    HM05 Waterfall!!

    19 RM
    28 Moves

    * Return and Frustration are counted as 2 Moves, but only 1 RM
    ** Repeated From Level Up


    TM/HMs reasoning (open)

    This is where Volkraken will get most of its moves. I will be honest here, most of these moves are filler, with the required moves in general and the moves that each Fire and Water type should have on their movepool. Reflect, U-Turn, and Flash cannon where added to help Volkraken support the core's defense, have a pivoting move, and have a move against fairy types. Flash was added because I don't see how it makes any sense to have Flash Cannon and not flash.

    Completive Reasoning (open)

    Clear Smog over Haze: The reason I have Clear Smog over Haze is because Clear Smog, unlike Haze, only resets the opponent’s stats. This may not sound like a big deal but remember, we have Overheat, so we can just nuke stuff with Overheat and then clear it away with Haze, which is a big no-no

    No Pain Split: Pain Split is just to powerful to have on our movepool, it completely destroys Chansey and Blissey and we are trying to be countered by them

    Power Gem: This allows us to threaten Mega Charizard Y, a major threat to the core.

    Flash Cannon: This allows us to hit fairy types like Clefable and Togekiss while at the same time not hitting water types to hard like with Sludge Wave

    No Sludge Wave: I really don’t even understand why we voted for this to be allowed. It does to much damage to the Pokémon we are trying to threaten and we have Flash Cannon to hurt fairies that we don’t already threaten with our type, other than Azumarill but its written down for "A lesser extent"

    Stealth Rock/Reflect: These moves help out the core a lot, by boosting our defense and deal damage to the cores threats respectively. Also, Stealth Rock does not threaten our threats like Keldeo at all; in fact it helps against threats to the core like Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona

    Sunny Day/Rain Dance: I was originally against these moves, but they really not that bad. It restricts the use of Choice Specs, which is what makes us such a nuke. In fact, Sunny Day helps some of the Pokémon we are trying to threaten and Rain Dance helps some of the Pokémon we trying to be threatened by

    Overheat: This move does a lot of damage yes, but it reduces our special attack stat, so in reality it’s not that spammable plus it helps us a lot by dealing with Aegislash.

    U-Turn: It helps us a lot by letting us pivot and it does barley any damage, like how are we going to abuse this move when our attack stat is only 5 points higher than Pidgey's

    No Status Healing: These basically destroy the Pink Blobs by removing their man source of damage, namely Toxic. That is too dangerous to have.

    tl;dr I added moves that help the core and are not abusable and I disallowed moves that are abusable or threaten the Pokémon we are trying to threaten


    50 Total Moves
    27 Total RM

    Feedback and Criticism is encouraged. Also thank you Toebag and bugmaniacbob for the help
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
    Toebag and hendrix96 like this.
  25. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    The Pizza Man

    I don't really like this move on a movepool. Sure, technically its not an RM, and thus "allowed", but its effectively a 120 BP normal move (with analytic boost) against anything that switches in on full health (and if your counter has taken prior damage, you can use Fire Blast instead). This utterly nukes the hell out of Rotom-W, and Lati@s, so I don't really feel hugely comfortable with it in a movepool.
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