Celebi (Analysis) (QC 0/3)

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#1
Sorry about the wait, I was very busy this week. Anyway, here is the analysis



Celebi

[Overview]

Great Base Stats all around
Quite good typing especially the Grass Typing
Awesome Ability
Fantastic Movepool
Can be used as a Defensive Pokemon (specially or physically) and an Offensive Pokemon
Blocks some new threats like Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Sheer Force Landorus
Good support options
Access to Nasty Plot
U-Turn weak
Pursuit weak
Has a small place in Volturn
Tornadus-T weak

name: Defensive
move 1: Giga Drain
move 2: Recover
move 3: U-Turn
move 4: Perish Song / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 20 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Good check to many new offensive threats such as Keldeo, Thundurus-T and Sheer Force Landorus.
Giga Drain is a STAB that gives you recovery and makes you not Taunt bait
Perish Song gives Celebi a small niche to stop set up sweepers such as Reuniclus, Latias and SubDDNite
Recover gives you life
U-turn allows Celebi to build momentum while still being a defensive Pokemon
HP Fire screws over Ferrothorn and Scizor
Watchout though, HP Fire can't OHKO Scizor, you'll need a few damage on it before (Stealth Rock + U-Turn should be enough)
Spread stops a 2HKO from Thundurus-T's LO Modest HP Ice
20 Spe for Magnezone
Rest in HP and SpD because you need as much SpD as possible to handle Latios and Thundurus-T
Lefties is your only item choice
A Physically Defensive Set is also possible with a Bold Nature.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Run more or max defense if your hate physics walls, the spread is pretty flexable
Natural Cure helps a lot here
Only use Stealth Rock if your team has no other user
you can use Thunder Wave or even Psychic for the last slot
Heal Bell
Ferrothorn and Scizor screw you over without HP Fire so use something like Heatran, Skarmory or even Forretress.
Works well with Entry Hazards since it has U-Turn
Tentacruel is an interesting partner in Rain : it spins and sets up Toxic Spikes
A Sassy Nature could be used there if you would like to hit a bit harder with U-Turn (against another Celebi for example). Evs in Speed would go in SpD / Def.
Scarf Tyranitar is an amazing partner with U-Turn because Celebi attracts Lati@s, Gengar and traps them
Gliscor is a good teammate since it handles Terrakion, Scizor and Stall Heatran very well
Gastrodon and Heatran work well with Celebi because both can check quite well Tornadus-T and Genesect
Skarmory counters Scizor and checks Terrakion + it can Spikes which is great against U-Turn users such as Genesect and Scizor

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Psychic / Recover / Hidden Power Ice
nature: Timid
item : Leftovers / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Arguably the best pure offensive set Celebi can run
NP boosts your SpA, allowing the sweep
Giga Drain is a solid STAB and restores your health
HP Fire because fuck you Steels
Earth Power because fuck you Heatran
Psychic because fuck you genies and Dragonite
Recover because fuck you things that won't let Celebi restore health with Giga Drain
Spread changed to be much more offensive, now you're not outsped by everything
Spread can be changed to be more defensive (use Recover / HP Fire in this case with a Modest Nature).
Hidden Power Ice to hit Dragonite, Hydreigon, Landorus, Tornadus-T etc

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Bulkier spread of 220 HP / 180 SpA / 96 Spe but a lot is faster
no matter what you're always not gonna have coverage on something so there are good other moves
Baton Pass
Scarf Terrakion is still a good teammate here to get rid of genies and fast stuff and special walls (Blissey & Chansey) he also takes the Dark-type attacks Celebi hates
Tentacruel has good synergy and can spin away hazards (only in Rain)
Heatran for the Scizor weakness, Magnezone can fit here as well
Scarf Tyranitar for Lati@s and Gengar
Jirachi works well with Wish and it can also handle Tornadus-T, Genesect, Lati@s and Gengar
Leaf Storm can be used over Giga Drain for more power

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Earth Power / Psychic
move 4: U-turn / Recover / Thunder Wave
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Leaf Storm is an awesomely powerful STAB move to be used like DM would be on a Dragon
HP Fire is to take out Steels not named Heatran
Earth Power is for Steels named Heatran
Psychic is a reliable STAB move without the -2 SpA effect
U-turn is a good scouting move
Thunder Wave gives Celebi some support options
Recover is awesome and heals off the LO recoil
Life Orb is great for Celebi (who doesn't have the greatest SpA)
I kept the EV spread because I honestly couldn't think of a better one

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Lefties lets you live longer
Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB move
use Scarf Terrakion with this, trust me
Deoxys-D for Hazards
Watch out for Heatran if you don't carry Earth Power
HP Ice really won't do much to 2x Dragons, so don't overestimate it
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe w/ Timid
Bulkier spread running 36 Spe, 252 SpA, 220 Spe (use Thunder Wave in this case)
Stealth Rock is an option over U-Turn or Earth Power
Scarf Tyranitar


[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Substitute / Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Calm Mind > Nasty Plot, since it is much easier to pass CM boosts than NP boosts.
101 HP Sub makes Chansey / Blissey set-up fodder and protects the CM recipient on the turn of Baton Pass
Substitute also blocks Dragon Tail - Careful Dragonite's Dragon Tail does not break Celebi's Substitute. After 3 CMs, not even Rain Tank's Hurricane would break Celebi's Substitute most of the time.
Specially Defensive spread makes setting up CMs on special sweepers much easier.
HP Fire can be used over Substitute to take out Skarmory before it can phaze Celebi's special attack boosts.
Many Rain Pokemon are set-up fodder for Celebi

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Thunder Wave gives it 25% fp chance of BP success against phazers, and it's a generally good utility move.
Earth Power to dispatch Heatran, which may phaze Celebi
84 SpA to OHKO specially defensive Heatran with a +2 Earth Power or a physically defensive Skarmory with a +2 HP Fire
72 Spe to beat Modest Heatran to the punch.
Swords Dance & Seed Bomb / Zen Headbutt to pass Atk boosts
Magic Coat / Espeon to cockblock phazers
Recover to keep it healthy
Rain support is nice to ensure Leftovers recovery and halving Fire moves. Obviously Celebi wouldn't use HP Fire in this case.
Special sweepers that benefits from a few SpA boosts, such as Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Starmie, Latios, Volcarona.
Wish Passer / Heal Wisher, such as Jirachi to keep Celebi healthy.
Teammates that can deal with Scizor, PSong Celebi, Volcarona, and Tornadus. Heatran is a good answer to many of them; Scizor can Pursuit-trap Celebi / Tornadus; Jirachi is the best answer to Tornadus; Gyarados checks Scizor & Volcarona.

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Earth Power / Psychic
move 4: U-turn / Trick
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Scarf is revenger
Leaf Storm is the omnipresent awesome STAB
HP Fire breaks Steels
HP Ice breaks Dragons and can actually do something to 2x with Specs
Earth Power breaks Heatran
Psychic is a strong STAB
U-turn is great for scouting
Trick screws with Blissey / Chansey / stall mons
Timid to tie with +100's
Offensive spread

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Modest for more power for the Choice Specs
Fine tune the spread to be bulkier for the Choice Specs
Use hazards with this
Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB for the Choice Specs
Terrakion is good with this
Spin away hazards because Celebi will be switching in alot, Starmie can do this well

[Other Options]
Swords Dance
SubSeed
Calm Mind
Dual Screens
Perish Song
Healing Wish
Stealth Rock
Trick Room

[Checks and Counters]
Faster stuff with strong SE STABs (Tornadus-T, etc.) in general
Tornadus-T
Tornadus
Kyurem in hail
Sun teams
Heatran
Salamence / Dragonite if you lack HP Ice
Hydreigon
Scarf Heracross
Lati@s
Scizor
U-turn
Pursuit
X-Scissor on anything that gets it
Skarmory without Hidden Power Fire
Tyranitar
Genesect
 
#2
This looks really good, no one would suspect you weren't even a native speaker really, nice job.

I think on Celebi you should just use Max Special Defense + the 36 Spe EV's (for the defensive set).
Those Defensive EV's look to just be thrown on there, and you cannot always rely on being at full Health to take those two Thundurus HP Ice's, that Celebi isn't really meant to tank Physical hits anyways, so I don't see why Max SpDef isn't used.
 

Pocket

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#3
yes, I second Bri's notion - unless those def evs are meant to survive some particular hits, then dump them in SpD. It's a special wall first, and mixed wall second.
 

jc104

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is a Contributor Alumnus
#4
I'm very seriously questioning the use of 32/36 speed evs on any of the sets. The original target was jolly non-scarf tyranitar, which is a complete nonentity, and even the other pokemon sitting around the same area (gliscor, jirachi, other celebi) are not especially important to outrun, bearing in mind that these pokemon all struggle to damage each other significantly.

Instead you should be looking to outrun targets such as Adamant breloom, Modest Politoed and Timid HP Fire Magnezone by running 16 evs, or attempt to outrun max speed gothitelle or max speed Breloom. There are plenty of options here, but the current standard is really silly.
 

alexwolf

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#5
jc is right, you should run 16 Spe evs, to outspeed all those threats, anymore is unecessary.

Also on the defensive set, why is U-turn the first option? Baton Pass does the same, except it allows you to escape Pursuit users, such as Scizor and Ttar, which can be very problematic if you don't run a physically defensive spread. The damage U-turn does is almost irrelevant anyway, except from breaking Dnites ability, and damaging Ttar, Hydreigon and Celebi (which is not Celebi's duty anyway, while stayng alive and not getting Pursuit trapped is your duty). So Baton Pass should definitely get slashed with U-turn, maybe even first.

And as others said, you should really move the Def evs that are arbitary thrown there, and put them to SpD on the SpDefensive set.
 
#6
A Sassy Nature could be used there if you would like to hit a bit harder with U-Turn (against another Celebi for example). Evs in Speed would go in SpD / Def.
I always use a Sassy Nature on Def Celebi btw
 
#7
Sassy + min Spe is good, with mentions of certain benchmarks (Politoed, Breloom) in set comments. Also support the removal of the arbitrary Def EVs. As for U-turn, it deals notable damage to Celebi and Alakazam (U-turn outdamages Giga Drain, and Giga Drain + U-turn KOes Zam), and the passive damage accumulates over time even if it's not immediately useful. Baton Pass can be mentioned in AC to escape Pursuit.

Mention Dugtrio as a partner for psuedo-Perish Trapping. Dugtrio also traps common switch-ins such as Heatran, Ninetales, Volcarona, etc. Wob/Goth probably work as well; they would trap Ferrothorn, Forretress, ScarfMence, etc.

I don't get the spread on the offensive set; shouldn't it be the same as either of the NP spreads?
 
#8
Just took JellyOS's spread, but it's true that it sucks, let me edit that.
I'll also remove the Def Evs for the Defensive Set.
 

Pocket

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#9
Specially Defensive:
"36 Spe for Scizor"
The Spe EVs are for Jolly TTar, and you only need 32 Spe EVs to achieve this, since HP Fire is not the primary slash

Nasty Plot:
~ NP Leaf Storm~!
~ items missing - Leftovers / Life Orb
~ slash Earth Power / HP Fire and Psychic / Recover imo. I've seen quite a few NP + Grass STAB + Earth Power + Recover, but I rarely see ones with Psychic + Recover.

Choice Set - Honestly, a choiced Grass (and Psychic) is not a smart idea, I'd say scrap this set and only give it an OO mention. If this set sticks though, here are some suggestions:
~ move this set under Baton Pass set
~ slash Choice Specs
~ HP Ice > HP Fire to revenge therians and dragons
Modest for more power
Fine tune the spread to be bulkier
Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB
Mention that these are all options for the Choice Specs, which can afford to forego Speed and lack of power, unlike the Scarf set.

Baton Pass - move above Choice set
72 Spe to beat Heatran to the punch.
- specify that the Spe EVs make it faster than MODEST Heatran, since Timid Heatran are more relevant now, I think.

Other Options
~ Remove Rest + Natural Cure
~ Remove lol Tanga Berry

In General
~ No mention of SR? I can certainly see this move receiving an AC mention for the defensive and offensive set. At least mention it in OO
~ details on teammates are skimpy; there are many mons that gives Celebi problems, and Terrakion alone does not solve them. Specifically, Terrakion does not deal with Latias, Latios, Tornadus-I/T, Scizor, and it certainly cannot switch into Hydreigon or Kyurem without risking getting Draco Meteored or Ice Beamed.
 

Pocket

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#11
Yes, the teammate section is much more improved!

You implemented most of my suggestions, but you missed a couple:

~ Change the defensive Spe EVs to 32; HP Fire is not the primary slash, so we assume Celebi has perfect Spe EVs
~ The Spe EVs are for Jolly TTar, not Scizor - plz fix this.
~ AC mention Leaf Storm in the Nasty Plot set.
~ OO mention Trick Room; can couple nicely with Healing Wish

Decent movepool
You're way off here. Celebi's movepool is FANTASTIC. A grass-type with access to SR? Baton Pass, Trick Room, T-Wave, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Perish Song, U-turn, and Earth Power are not common moves for a Grass-type. Celebi's immense movepool is what keeps it in OU, despite all of its flaws.
 
#14
How about of this set in OO?

Celebi @ Flame Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 224 SDef / 44 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Recover
- Perish Song
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Ice]

It's effective especially in rainstall team. It can burn scizor (that always switch in to celebi in rain), genesect or tyranitar. Perish song for setupper like reuniclus and hp ice mainly for dragonite and other dragons type. Recover to regain hp obviously.
 

jc104

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#18
Before I approve I would like to see the speed evs question adressed. I would also like HP Ice to appear as a slash on the nasty plot set. If you're not using HP Fire it's probably a better option than psychic for the reasons I gave in the previous thread.

If you wish to disagree with me on either of these you need to give me a good argument.

edit: for the speed I'd like to see 16 (for adamant breloom and timid HP fire zone), 20 (for timid zone), 64 (for jolly scizor and timid gothitelle), or perhaps even 108 (jolly breloom). This is for the slow sets currently running 32 evs.
 
#19
Pretty much everything looks good here, although I'm not really a big member or whatever, so that really doesn't mean much. One thing though, on the NP set, in bold...
[SET]
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Psychic / Recover
nature: Timid
item : Leftovers / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Arguably the best pure offensive set Celebi can run
NP boosts your SpA, allowing the sweep
Giga Drain is a solid STAB and restores your health
HP Fire because fuck you Steels
Earth Power because fuck you Heatran
Psychic because fuck you genies and Dragonite
Recover because fuck you things that won't let Celebi restore health with Giga Drain
Spread changed to be much more offensive, now you're not outsped by everything
Spread can be changed to be more defensive (use Recover / HP Fire in this case with a Modest Nature).

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Bulkier spread of 220 HP / 180 SpA / 96 Spe but a lot is faster
no matter what you're always not gonna have coverage on something so there are good other moves
HP Ice
Baton Pass
Scarf Terrakion is still a good teammate here to get rid of genies and fast stuff and special walls (Blissey & Chansey) he also takes the Dark-type attacks Celebi hates
Tentacruel has good synergy and can spin away hazards (only in Rain)
Heatran for the Scizor weakness, Magnezone can fit here as well
Scarf Tyranitar for Lati@s and Gengar
Jirachi works well with Wish and it can also handle Tornadus-T, Genesect, Lati@s and Gengar
Leaf Storm can be used over Giga Drain for more power
Huh? Nasty Plot + Leaf Storm? I don't really see the logic in this. Celebi wants to be able to use its STAB without losing its boosts, and the healing from Giga Drain is fantastic for a Pokemon with base 100 defenses. Obviously Leaf Storm packs quite a punch, but after using it, you have little chance at pulling off a proper sweep.
I'm all ears for any arguments, but I'm not sure its worth an AC mention. Just my thoughts on it.
 
#21
I think 20 speed is what should be used for the slow sets, since I've seen a lot of HP Ice Magnezone's lately and after a Charge Beam they do some damage if you only have 16 Speed.
 
#22
It hits 240 iirc ? Should be enough I guess. Latios is often used in the current metagame, we definitely have to run 244 SpD.

Thx Princess Bri.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Contributor Alumnus
#23
Me said:
Before I approve I would like to see the speed evs question adressed. I would also like HP Ice to appear as a slash on the nasty plot set. If you're not using HP Fire it's probably a better option than psychic for the reasons I gave in the previous thread.
As I said, could you slash HP Ice in with Psychic and Recover on Nasty Plot. Here's why:

+2 Leftovers Celebi vs Rash 0/0 Hydreigon: 95.09 - 112.26%
+2 Life Orb Celebi vs 0/0 Dragonite: 204.33 - 241.48% (OHKO through multiscale)
+0 Leftovers Celebi vs 0/0 Dragonite: 79.25 - 94.11% (OHKO after SR)
+0 Leftovers Celebi vs 0/0 Naive Salamence: 102.71 - 122.05% (unconditional OHKO)
+0 Leftovers Celebi vs 0/0 Naive Landorus: 106.58 - 126.64% (OHKO)
+0 Leftovers Celebi vs 0/0 Latios: 39.07 - 46.35% (little, but more than twice as much as any other move)

Other than that, it does pretty much what Psychic does. You miss out on Gengar, a very powerful hit on Conkeldurr, and some power against Tentacruel, Infernape, and Toxicroak. I believe that all of these are less effective Celebi switchins than the above dragons.

Might I remind you that it's fine to disagree with QC members, but ignoring them is not acceptible.
 
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