Pokémon Charizard

[kiriyainori]

I'm interested in using Charizard-Y, but I have a question.

Is Drought used as a more self-sufficient ability (enhancing its sweeping and/or wall-breaking prowess), or is it better to build a sun team utilizing it?

I would say its a more self-sufficient ability unless its a double/triple battle. Since the lack of heat rock, the sun wont last long and switching in between. It makes wonders as self-sufficient with solarbeam and added power to STAB fire, also making sure it can survive water atks from the first 5 turns also.

I'm not sure if it could tank as well as Ninetails since it does have access to roost which Ninetails doesnt. But you cant tank a sandstorm setup and hope your solorbeam can take down TT which might be holding a assault vest , and end up dying to a stone edge or rock slide, while Ninetails have access to will-o-wisp.

If you want a team Drought, Ninetails might still be your best bet with confuse ray/hypnosis will-o-wisp to make up for what it lacks.

 

[SlaXer]

Hi guys,

I wanted to play CharX on cartridge to battle friends but I can't find how Charizard can learn Thunderpunch on X/Y... Is it possible?
Is there another way to play CharX while keeping a good coverage?

And in your opinion, what is the best set for him? It don't have a really good Speed BS, is Adamant > Jolly for CharX?

Thunderpunch is a tutor move, so it's not available until December. EQ is not affected by though claws but it gives you perfect coverage.
In fact I'd say EQ>Thunderpunch if you are running CharX as your sole DD sweeper.

 

[Reikai]

Pre gen 6 you could spam Outrages with one to weaken the opponent team and then the second one to clean up. Basically running 2 DDers (or scarf moxie) to break through the opponent team with brute force.
Now that's harder to do with fairies, but CharX has stab Though claws Flare Blitz to take care of fairies no named Carbink or Azumarill. I'm running Thunderpunch on CharX and EQ on Salamence and works perfectly to take care of those 2 and Heatran.

So its not so much a "combo" with some sort of magical synergy as it is simply two really strong pokemon working together.

Also, just a question, why Salamence and not say... Garchomp? Is it simply because of DD?

 

[SlaXer]

So its not so much a "combo" with some sort of magical synergy as it is simply two really strong pokemon working together.

Also, just a question, why Salamence and not say... Garchomp? Is it simply because of DD?

Yeah, it's all about DD (or scarfmoxie)
Garchomp is a Bulky attacker, a Tank, A wallbreaker, whatever you want, but it's not a sweeper.
The "magic" of the Mence-Quaza combo is that no matter who dies first, the other one can finish the sweep.
If you were using Salamence and Garchomp and then Salamence dies first, Garchomp can't finish the sweep since a lot of Pokemon can easily outspeed it.

 

[mrglass]

I would say its a more self-sufficient ability unless its a double/triple battle. Since the lack of heat rock, the sun wont last long and switching in between. It makes wonders as self-sufficient with solarbeam and added power to STAB fire, also making sure it can survive water atks from the first 5 turns also.

I'm not sure if it could tank as well as Ninetails since it does have access to roost which Ninetails doesnt. But you cant tank a sandstorm setup and hope your solorbeam can take down TT which might be holding a assault vest , and end up dying to a stone edge or rock slide, while Ninetails have access to will-o-wisp.

If you want a team Drought, Ninetails might still be your best bet with confuse ray/hypnosis will-o-wisp to make up for what it lacks.

I think Charizard is being passed over a bit too quickly for Ninetales as a Team Sun Summoner. Yes, Ninetales can hold a Heat Rock, but Charizard has access to reliable recovery, can summon Weather last in priority the first time, has better offensive AND defensive stats (yes, in HP, Def, and Sp. Def), has better typing, and it can run Focus Blast to deal with T-Tar.

In other words, aside from Heat Rock, Charizard is better than Ninetales in almost every way.

 

[Thorhammer]

I think Charizard is being passed over a bit too quickly for Ninetales as a Team Sun Summoner. Yes, Ninetales can hold a Heat Rock, but Charizard has access to reliable recovery, can summon Weather last in priority the first time, has better offensive AND defensive stats (yes, in HP, Def, and Sp. Def), has better typing, and it can run Focus Blast to deal with T-Tar.

In other words, aside from Heat Rock, Charizard is better than Ninetales in almost every way.

And that damn 4x SR weakness. Charizard can make plenty of sun for itself, but there's no way it's going to be able to support other members who need it. Even if it switches out immediately, you've got only three turns of sun for whatever you bring in next for each time Charizard hits the field, the same problem Trick Room has. Except most Trick Room users don't have to take special care to avoid dying in two switch-ins without even taking any direct hits.

 

[mrglass]

And that damn 4x SR weakness. Charizard can make plenty of sun for itself, but there's no way it's going to be able to support other members who need it. Even if it switches out immediately, you've got only three turns of sun for whatever you bring in next for each time Charizard hits the field, the same problem Trick Room has. Except most Trick Room users don't have to take special care to avoid dying in two switch-ins without even taking any direct hits.

Oh I forgot, Charizard gets Defog as well, helping it remedy the SR weakness. But even with it, it's pretty much offset by Charizard's immunity to all other entry hazards, including Sticky Web.

And yes, having 5 turns is quite the problem, but I feel like Charizard has enough benefits over Ninetales that both could see use in supporting roles.

 

[Aldrius]

A 4x Stealth Rock weakness is just too much for Charizard to be a reliable-weather inducer. Ninetales 2x weakness was a big enough problem last gen and that was with permanent sun. It's not that Charizard-Y isn't good, and that it CAN'T be used for sun support. It's if you're building a sun team, Charizard-Y is going to have to be your back-up.

 

[Reikai]

Yeah, it's all about DD (or scarfmoxie)
Garchomp is a Bulky attacker, a Tank, A wallbreaker, whatever you want, but it's not a sweeper.
The "magic" of the Mence-Quaza combo is that no matter who dies first, the other one can finish the sweep.
If you were using Salamence and Garchomp and then Salamence dies first, Garchomp can't finish the sweep since a lot of Pokemon can easily outspeed it.

I was just curious if you could elaborate on both the Charizard X and Salamence sets you are running for the CharXMence "combo"?

 

[mrglass]

A 4x Stealth Rock weakness is just too much for Charizard to be a reliable-weather inducer. Ninetales 2x weakness was a big enough problem last gen and that was with permanent sun. It's not that Charizard-Y isn't good, and that it CAN'T be used for sun support. It's if you're building a sun team, Charizard-Y is going to have to be your back-up.

I still think it depends. I think people are really overestimating the presence of hazards this gen, at least after Pokemon Bank is released. Defog's buff is a huge deal, as it clears hazards everywhere. If your opponent is using a Volcarona or a Yanmega, and you both lay SR down, your SR might be cleared purely because your opponent wanted to get rid of theirs. So half the time, it's not even going to be cleared by you.

And if you have a team that's going to use sun to some extent, but not base the entire team around it, I think Charizard-Y would be the much better option for supporter.

 

[Aldrius]

Absolutely. Charizard-Y is a much better pokemon. And the water-reduction and the fire-boost will be a huge boon regardless. Especially since rain is unlikely to be as ubiquotous as it was last gen.

 

[I2edShift]

Ninetails is terrible compared to CharY. Just flat out.

Anyway, is there any way for a Snorlax to effectively wall a purely Special Attack CharY?

 

[mrglass]

Ninetails is terrible compared to CharY. Just flat out.

Anyway, is there any way for a Snorlax to effectively wall a purely Special Attack CharY?

Yes, but only if one of a few things happen:

1. Focus Blast misses
2. Snorlax switches in on the fainting of another poke
3. It runs 252 HP 252 Sp. Def EVs

In one of those cases, Snorlax counters and hits back with Rock Slide.

Actually, Zard Y + Snorlax could be an effective combo. Snorlax shuts down Dragons, Rock types, and Special walls with Superpower and Ice Punch. Zard Y kills Physical Walls, Fighting Types, and Steel Types for Snorlax.

 

[Bundy300]

^In gen 5, I would've said that if you're running drought, then you might as well get the most out of it by stacking some sun abusers in there (aka Chlorophyll Venusaur). However, now that Drought has been nerfed (and because Charizard-Y can't hold a Heat Rock to prolong Drought to 8 turns), I would be more hesitant to build a team around sun support. I think that, instead of building an entire team around sun, I would probably have a couple of other ways I could benefit from it, while also building in other win conditions as well.
So to answer your question, I would see Charizard-Y as being more self-sufficient than a team supporter. However, you can put a one or two other ways of abusing sun in your team, should you get the chance in battle. If you want to make a fully-fledged sun team, then Ninetales is probably the better pokemon because it can provide it's team with longer-lasting sun via Heat Rock. Obviously Heat Rock Ninetales is pretty urghhh though.

This. I don't see why people think because Charizard has drought it needs to support the whole team, I've been playing with Charizard-Y and I'm loving how it abuses the ability to no end for itself..

Let's say you switch in charizard against something it forces out and u land on SR.
That turn you roost and your opponent goes into a bulky water or something like hippowdown/ttar.
You can now Mega-evo and go for the suprise OHKO with solarbeam, I don't know why everyone expects it to be Char-X but I've caught quite a few of them off guard because of that on PS.

The sp def boost is also pretty sweet it allows it to avoid some 2hko's on the whim (it took ~48% max from +2 moonblast fired by xerneas.. don't know if that means much but I was quite suprised when it happened.)

It also loves sticky web (well who doesn't..) I could go Modest without worrying about being outspeeded while seriously denting everything they sent out (bar Heatran -_-).

Well that was my experience with Mega Charizard-Y, I would really be suprised if it didn't end up in OU.

 

[DTHaseo]

The mixed CharX set on the first post needs to have the EV's changed. It doesn't need the Sp. Atk EV's at all to still blast things away. Physically defensive hippo is still 2HKO'd with 4 Sp. Atk invesments. Those added 100 can go into his attack so he can hit as hard as possible with Dragon claw( +tough claws boost), and EQ.

4 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 211-250 (50.23 - 59.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The only time we wouldn't 2HKO hippo is if it went for it's mixed wall set, in which case not even 100 ev's in Char X's special attack would be enough to 2HKO even with SR.

100 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 156-184 (37.14 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

When Char X goes into the Mixed Dancer set it's more like mence in the sense that just having Naive nature and 130 sp. atk is enough to still blow holes into the most physically defensive mon's.

 

[X5Dragon]

The mixed CharX set on the first post needs to have the EV's changed. It doesn't need the Sp. Atk EV's at all to still blast things away. Physically defensive hippo is still 2HKO'd with 4 Sp. Atk invesments. Those added 100 can go into his attack so he can hit as hard as possible with Dragon claw( +tough claws boost), and EQ.

4 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 211-250 (50.23 - 59.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The only time we wouldn't 2HKO hippo is if it went for it's mixed wall set, in which case not even 100 ev's in Char X's special attack would be enough to 2HKO even with SR.

100 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 156-184 (37.14 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

When Char X goes into the Mixed Dancer set it's more like mence in the sense that just having Naive nature and 130 sp. atk is enough to still blow holes into the most physically defensive mon's.

You forgot to take into account the BP nerf to Fire Blast.

 

[Aura Sensei™]

whilst i can't say much about mega zard y, since i have yet to use it, mega zard x looks like it will find it's home in ou. with dragon dance, outrage, dragon claw, flare blitz and earthquake, it hits everything in ou for at least neutral coverage. i've swept a few teams whilst using it, and i can honestly say, in many occasions, at +1 it is able to completely devastate the opponent, if the opponent isn't carrying something like excadrill or a scarfer that is faster and threatens it.

mega zard y looks pretty solid as well, from facing it. it's increased spa and drought is a given, and more than likely, it will be the preferred option over ninetales.

 

[Karxrida]

Nice,very nice.

Thank you.
In all seriousness, though, non-Mega Charizard already runs that set in Gen V's NU tier, and Mega Charizard Y is just normal Zard with slightly more offensive presence and an ability that only increases one of his STABs instead of his Special Attack . Also, Charizard's special movepool is crap, his STABs give horribly redundant coverage, and Focus Blast is necessary if you don't want to be walled by Tyranitar and Heatran.

EDIT: Aura Sensei, Zard Y is actually worse than Ninetales as a Drought user, since its still x4 weak to Stealth Rock and can't even hold the weather stone to increase the duration of sun (meaning he will HAVE TO SWITCH OUT).

 

[Realm]

Char X is better, but Char Y is unquestionably way, way better than Charizard. It's not a slightly more offensive presence, it's a huge one, and Drought keeps it safe from Water, and it's extra sp. def helps it greatly on top of that.

With defog, I don't wanna hear "This pokemon is crap because SR". It's going to be way easier to counter SR's now. It will still see play in the meta, but it's no longer going to be an end all for Pokemon weak to it. (And don't forget, Ninetails is worse in stats than Char Y all around and is still 2x weak to SR. As if it's not a problem for Ninetails either. 25% is enough damage to easily kill Ninetails thereafter).

Also, Char Y is a better Drought user in some ways because it starts off as Charizard. Another weather Pokemon vs Ninetails usually results in Ninetails Drought getting overwritten. it's too fast for a Drought user against other weather users (because the slower weather Pokemon gets it over the faster one).

Charizard Y doesn't come out until he Mega's, which means he'll over run other weathers. I've already been doing this.

 

[mrglass]

Thank you.
In all seriousness, though, non-Mega Charizard already runs that set in Gen V's NU tier, and Mega Charizard Y is just normal Zard with slightly more offensive presence and an ability that only increases one of his STABs instead of his Special Attack . Also, Charizard's special movepool is crap, his STABs give horribly redundant coverage, and Focus Blast is necessary if you don't want to be walled by Tyranitar and Heatran.

EDIT: Aura Sensei, Zard Y is actually worse than Ninetales as a Drought user, since its still x4 weak to Stealth Rock and can't even hold the weather stone to increase the duration of sun (meaning he will HAVE TO SWITCH OUT).

Honestly, Zard Y has most of the special movepool it needs with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, Dragon Pulse, Air Slash, and Focus Blast. Really the only two moves it might find useful are Aura Sphere and Earth Power, and both of those have big tradeoffs in power with Focus Blast. Ice Beam hits Flying and Dragon types, but you lose coverage against several other types by running it over Dragon Pulse. Thunderbolt would really only be useful for Flying types as SolarBeam takes care of water types.

I'll put this list up again: Zard Y is not only bulkier than Ninetales, it has more offensive presense, has better typing, isn't weak to sticky web, can summon weather last in priority, and it learns Defog to clear hazards that are set up on it.

Also, Zard Y's Sun is first and foremost for Zard Y. You might want to have a few pokemon good with sun on your team, but it's not meant to build a team around.

 

[Aldrius]

whilst i can't say much about mega zard y, since i have yet to use it, mega zard x looks like it will find it's home in ou.

If Charizard X is OU, that means Charizard is OU, which means Charizard Y is OU. They're all connected to eachother. We MIGHT end up with a Rotom situation, but I doubt it.

Honestly, Zard Y has most of the special movepool it needs with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, Dragon Pulse, Air Slash, and Focus Blast.

Ehh... I find Solarbeam really risky.

I'll put this list up again: Zard Y is not only bulkier than Ninetales, it has more offensive presense, has better typing, isn't weak to sticky web, can summon weather last in priority, and it learns Defog to clear hazards that are set up on it.

I still don't know why we're comparing the two, though. They're very different pokemon, and they're best used in conjunction.

 

[mrglass]

Ehh... I find Solarbeam really risky.



I still don't know why we're comparing the two, though. They're very different pokemon, and they're best used in conjunction.

SolarBeam was risky with weather so dominant last gen, but I don't see it nearly as bad this gen, especially with Zard's first SolarBeam coming with final priority weather.

Agreed, they are different, with different purposes. Ninetales is for a dedicated sun team. Zard Y is for a team that mildly enjoys sun.

 

[ArturoSiew]

Charizard X -
Thunderpunch - take care of gyarados, azumarill, blasotise and many water type that used to be it bane.
Stone Edge - Take care of other Fire Type
Flare Blitz - STAB and it hit steel type for super effective
Dragon Claw - Stabbed move and Dragon WAR !!!!! Take care of Garchomp, Dragonite, Kingdra, Salamence, Dragalgae, Goodra, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Altaria, Flygon, Druddigon, Tyrantrum.
Earthquake - Take care of Rock, Fire, Steel (Heatran), Electric (Electrivire), Poison type
Shadow Claw - Can be used with tough claw, can still be used on Heatran since it hit Heatran for neutral damage now, Ghost and Psychic type
Reccomended moveset -
Flare Blitz
Dragon Claw
Thunder punch, if not shadow Claw or Stone Edge
Earthquake

Charizard Y -
Solarbeam - for Rock, Ground and Water type, especially Swampert
Fire Blast - Maximum destruction
Air Slash - For STAB as well as to destroy Fighting type and fliching, great if you have teammate that can help spread paralysis
Ancient Power- Passive stat boost or use it against other fire and flying type
Focus Blast - Destroy heatran, tear normal type apart, not really for rock type since you have solar beam
Dragon Pulse - Dragon WAR !!!!! Take care of Garchomp, Dragonite, Kingdra, Salamence, Dragalgae, Goodra, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Altaria, Flygon, Druddigon, Tyrantrum.

 

[mrglass]

Charizard Y -
Solarbeam - for Rock, Ground and Water type, especially Swampert
Fire Blast - Maximum destruction
Air Slash - For STAB as well as to destroy Fighting type and fliching, great if you have teammate that can help spread paralysis
Ancient Power- Passive stat boost or use it against other fire and flying type
Focus Blast - Destroy heatran, tear normal type apart, not really for rock type since you have solar beam
Dragon Pulse - Dragon WAR !!!!! Take care of Garchomp, Dragonite, Kingdra, Salamence, Dragalgae, Goodra, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Altaria, Flygon, Druddigon, Tyrantrum.

I've never found Air Slash to be useful on Charizard. Every time I've used it, I've almost immediately replaced it with Dragon Pulse or Focus Blast because of how limited it is in coverage.

Ancient Power is actually a really interesting option, Especially for the likes of Dragonite, Noivern, and Salamence should you be lacking Dragon Pulse. And I always forget about it's handsome side effect because it's so unlikely. But with the HP Nerf, it's really not as bad an option anymore and actually better than HP Rock. I definitely see it being useful should Moltres become a common threat. Talonflame is 2HKOed by Fire Blast, so it's not that big a deal.

I see a lot of people talk about HP Ice, but assuming you don't run 4 attacking moves, which I've personally found requires way too much support to be useful (Keeping Sticky Web up and SR down can be difficult), you are completely walled against opposing Fire types.

 

[Spectruma?]

I'm running char Y as both self-sufficient sun user and a support for my team on PO. And I'm having some good results (7 wins - 2 losses) in pokebankOU (beta). And this is with a nerfed team, coz if I send in my char Y again after my sun is down, it doesn't reproc drought, coz he suddenly got the ability Blaze back (is there a place to report this).

Air slash is a waste on his movepool if you compare it to dragon pulse or focus blast. All fighting types in OU gets OHKOd by his fire blast in the sun anyway and that's the only reason you should run air slash, for the fighting types.

Currently I'm running:
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Solar Beam

The only thing that I can't kill is heatran, which isn't very present in the current OU beta. If he finds his presence back, I will run mixed set char Y with EQ in place of dragon pulse.