Choice Scarf... its effects on the Metagame

[RaikouLover]

I've been shoddy battling a lot recently... trying to find teams that can gel and work, blah blah blah all that good stuff..

What is infuriating to me personally is the grave impact the choice scarf is having on the metagame. I was testing a Choice Scarf Raikou, as a revenge killer and answer to Scarfchomp and ScarfGar... however, I was promptly KOed by the Gengar because my opponent made him timid and max speed. In another occassion, I was sweeping with my rain dancing Kingdra, EVed to outspeed Scarfchomp, and was stopped by a timid Choice Scarf Alakazam. Both opponents said their reasoning behind this insane amount of speed is to counter timid Choice Scarf max speed Starmie. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not overkill? In the past few months I've noticed the rapid increase in Choice Scarf use on already fast pokemon and I feel that soon we may see ridiculous things like Choice Scarf Aerodactyl next...

On the flipside of this argument, I have done many attempts to use the Choice Scarf as a way of surprising enemies on lead pokemon. I have had success with Choice Scarf Milotic, Celebi, and Zapdos as leads and people saying "WTF... theyre not supposed to attack... and 1st!" But this leads to the argument that any pokemon can now make a good lead with a Choice Scarf.

As a comedy and research team, I made a team of ALL choice scarfers just to see how it faired. I was shocked because I was in every battle, and every battle was close (decided by 1 or 2 pokes). However, this is disappointing because all I did was take random pokemon, give them 4 moves with the best coverage, slapped on a Scarf, and revenge killed everything.

Considering this, discuss:

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness?
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore?
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team?
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on?
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon?

 

[Icarus Syndrome]

1. I think that Choice Scarf helps the metagame in terms of strategy, but not in terms of originality.
2. I don't know.
3. One. I don't like choice items too much.
4. I started too use a Scarf Aerodactyl once when I was a huge noob.
5. It's useful to have priority move such as Extreeme Speed

 

[Derek(PUK)]

I presonally use 1 choice scarfer: Garchomp an amazing revenge killer, takes all those SDers and NPers. It really does affect the metagame but not in a really negative way. i think most scarfers are simple to counter they sacrifice alot of power for stat uppers and CB or specs as long, as you find resistances its easy, such as scarf-cross is easily countered by weezing and gliscor.

 

[Slice n Dice]

I love scarfgar and scarfchomp. Both are excellent revengers, namely scarfchomp. scarfgar is just a huge surprise.

 

[da gold sun]

Interesting topic here.

I have no clue why people would sacrifice such power on Gengar or Zam just for the rare Scarfed TIMID Starmie (which, the only reason I can think of, is to counter Scarf Garchomp or Gyarados with a few DDs on it). I myself use Scarf Heatran and Garchomp, but that's about it. Although I have tested several Scarf users in my shoddy career, Dragonite with Scarf was quite powerful (slightly stronger Outrage STAB than Garchomp). First, as to your questions...

1. Scarf does slightly both to the metagame. Hard to explain really. It improves it in the sense that you have several new sets involving the Scarf on several pokemon, similar to Choice Band in ADV. However, the surprise is gone once that Gengar is faster than a modest Scarf Gengar, and now you know that that Timid Gengar doesn't have as much attack as your own (with a + SAtk nature).
2. Magic Numbers still required? Slightly. Some pokemon need to run enough EVs to outspeed Scarf Heracross or Scarf Garchomp (most standard scarfers) to outspeed 'em. However, these are rendered obsolete with the maximum speed possible Scarf pokemon that were mentioned.
3. I'd use 1-2 scarfers on a team. 2 if and only if my team called for it. Of course an all scarf team sounds fun at the moment :naughty:
4. I plan to put a Scarf on Lucario sometime, or maybe even Sceptile, as I'm trying to beat Sceptile into the ground until I find my favorite strategy for him (favorite pokemon).
5. As Typhlosion said, priority moves help, and you just need to know how powerful the scarfed pokemon is (as said before, if you're running max speed Modest Gengar with a Scarf, and their Gengar is still faster, now you know it's timid Scarfed and it doesn't do as much damage as your own Gengar. Simply put something that can take a couple of his hits).

 

[Twilight :)]

I think it's a great item, but I don't mind playing against it. Getting locked into moves that are eaisly predicted and countered only means set up for me.

I personally do believe it has a strong, yet not broken effect on the metagame. It has its drawbacks.

My opinion is a bit biased though because I absoulutley hate using Choice Items. I just feel so resitricted and eaisly countered if I'm trying to out-predict and get out-predicted. For example...I have a Garchomp in against a Bronzong. I know my opponent has a Salamence, and my Garchomp has a Choice Scarf. I attempt to predict a switch into Salamence and use Dragon Claw instead of Fire Blasting the Bronzong. The opponent keeps Bronzong in and I'm locked on Dragon Claw. He now gets to set up.

 

[Havak]

Choice Scarf is an Item that makes you think twice about every attack these days, in some cases it is really annoying when you expect to outspeed things only to lose out, and maybe lose a match because of an Item. Choice Scarf is usually hard to predict as well, unless your opponent is really obvious and switches into something you'd expect it to be slower than.

In answer to your questions:

1. Personally I think Choice Scarf hampers the metagame a huge deal. There are some Pokémon that are "Expected" to be Scarfed at the moment, mainly Garchomp, but when people start slapping it on other random Pokémon games become less about prediction, and more about you hoping they don't run a Scarf. As I said earlier, Choice Scarf can be very hard to predict unless you make sure to calculate all damage in a match to see if they're not doing as much damage, but this only works for Pokémon that occasionally run Choice Band instead, IE Heracross and Garchomp. Or if they run Jolly/Adamant etc. When people run attacks like Hypnosis on Scarfed Pokémon, that can throw you off even more. This may be seen as a stroke of brilliance on some parts and a good strategy, and it probably is. If people are good enough at predicting and hiding the fact they're using a Scarf, it plays to their advantage even more. Lulling you into a false sense of security only to have your fast sweepers picked off later.

Choice Scarf has, and will become even more unoriginal as the years go by. It's not hard to stick a Scarf on something for a revenge kill and hope it works, it could be seen as cheap in some cases. Like some people see Dugtrio's ability to Revenge kill as rather cheap.

It's hard to say where it will stop, as like you said earlier, a Scarfed Aerodactyl seems a bit fucking silly when you can pick off the higher amount of slower Pokémon with a high attack stat instead. A lot of people will think they're being "original" by scarfing fast Pokémon to get surprise kills, but eventually people will come to expect Scarfs even more, or simply predict that when people switch something in after losing their Pokémon, it's probably Scarfed so switch in your counter rather than risking it. Makes more sense and will probably reduce the Scarf population.

Scarf will always be effective, but overkill is never a brilliant idea. Eventually you won't be picking off slower more defensive threats as often if you've chosen Scarf over Specs/Band/Life Orb etc and that could cost you games. Especially if your opponent is clever enough to realise you're Scarfed earlier. Scarf can be a surprise kill, but you're limiting yourself and once your opponent knows your Scarfed they're going to stop you easily, it'll also get rid of recovery and more useful items in the long run when you be silly and Scarf things like Milotic, as you said. It's like using Counter or Mirror Coat. Once you've used it once, the surprise is gone, you've potentially gained a kill that can sway the match. But that's it. You probably won't get it in again and the lack of a more useful item may end up costing you the match, just to laugh at your opponent once for not expecting something that is rather stupid anyway.

2. Yes, there always will be. Choice Scarf may just be a fad and people are testing, usage may decline eventually. If you can predict your opponents thinking well enough, you'll probably realise and be able to counter.

3. Usually just 1, if that. It is a cool Item and does help out some Pokémon, but it can also limit you a lot, even more so than Band or Specs.

4. Stantler.

5. Have counters that ARE slower anyway. If you have even the slightest suspiscion that your opponent is trying a revenge kill, think twice. Use a wall to counter instead. You're not being clever if you're going to risk your sweepers for the sake of learning your opponent IS faster than your fastest sweeper and not having anything fast to surprise it with anyway.

 

[umbarsc]

The fastest Choice Scarf user I've used is Starmie, but I immediately changed it to SpecStar. The only ones I've liked and used were Scarf Blaziken and Scarf Medicham.

Oh, and Scarf Alakazam isn't nearly as crazy as Scarf Weavile. =\ It took out my BellyZard, but it didn't manage to take out my Belly Drum Poliwrath later that match.

 

[Blln]

Choice Scarf can be a pretty useful item, especially because of its surprise factor, but often once that surprise is gone it becomes more of a hindrance than a help. I know I would MUCH rather face a Scarfed Gengar than an Expert Belt / Life Orbed one. A Scarfed pokemon can get a surprise kill, maybe provide some insurance against specific pokemon (Scarfed Gengar and Gyarados I guess as an example), but in the end it just lets your pokemon get walled more easily.

So yeah I suppose the Scarf can be useful for the sheer surprise and providing a little insurance against threats, but in the end makes your own pokemon much less threatening, since it just becomes much easier to wall

And when it comes to the metagame in general, I think the scarf introduced a healthy dose of unpredictability. Pretty much every pokemon can potentially be scarfed, so you need think twice about every move you make. You need to consider the possibility that the opponent might be scarfed, because if ysomething is and you aren't ready for it, it could possibly lose you the game or at least a pokemon

 

[Carl]

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness?
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore?
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team?
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on?
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon?

1. I look at it like this: anything that helps add diversity to the game is a good thing no matter how annoying it becomes. The random Choice Scarf can ruin your day, no doubt about that, but it does open up options and makes the game less predictable. Winning all the time is fun, but I like winning while being challenged. In terms of originality, there's nothing original about adding a different item to an otherwise unchanged pokemon set.
   
2. It's always good to know what speed range a pokemon is at in general without an item. Besides common Scarf users like Garchomp, you're bound to see more of a pokemon without the item than with it. That's why it's a surprise in the first place. This can screw you over but in terms of your winning percentage overall it's better to react with what's probable instead of what's possible.
   
3. The current team I'm using has one. Sometimes I'd like a second but with any of the Choice items you start to limit your flexibility when you pack them on a good chunk of your pokemon. It forces you to rely a bit more on prediction; especially with Choice Scarf since you're much more liable when it comes to walls.
   
4. One person gave me a "WTF" to a Choice Scarf/Sleep Powder Roserade but I really see nothing weird or wrong about that one personally.
   
5. Bulky pokemon and better prediction are the two best ways to handle the situation. Choice Scarf pokemon don't have the advantage of still doing a shit ton of damage when NVE like Specs and Band pokemon do so they're pretty easy to wall. If you can predict the right attack, immunities and resistances will give you an easy advantage/free turn. Obviously you have to recognize when something is Scarfed to really take advantage so paying attention in the early game always helps. Look for no Leftovers recovery and quick switches after they hit you with a NVE move. Damage calcs help as well. A lack of Leftovers but similar damage as to what a pokemon with Leftovers would deal is a good sign as well. And of course you can always recognize one once you get outsped but you don't really want to do that at the expense of one of your pokemon getting KO'ed.

 

[SNX7]

Oh, I've run into some insane Choice Scarf users. Adamant Crobat, and once a I ran into a Jolly Crobat holding a Choice Scarf. The current metagame seems to have turned more away from both the offense and defense that it was, and seems to be more and more of a footrace, who outspeeds who. I know many people who run Jolly Garchomps with a Choice Scarf. I think I may be one of the last people on Shoddy who runs an Adamant Garchomp and not 252 speed (I still invest a few SpDef EV's, since surviving random Ice Beams has saved me the game more than once)

The fastest thing I've ever run with a Choice Scarf is Gengar, and it was modest at that. I rarely scarf anything with more than 100 base speed anymore. I've tested stuff like Gengar, but it just didn't have enough power for me. I think that may explain my current Choice Specs fad.

 

[jujuomi]

Because of the choice scarf pokemon like masquerain and beautifly are now playable. It does cause trouble and annoyance. Item clause?

 

[Sunday]

Considering this, discuss:

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness?
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore?
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team?
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on?
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon?

1. One thing it does for certain is add a lot of unpredictability into a pokemon. Some things that could come in after a kill and be garunteed to force the opposition to switch no longer know for certain if they really can do that. It means that the only "real" counters are the bulkyer pokes such as Cresselia, Bronzong etc who don't rely on speed to finish the opponent off.

2. Only when trying to outspeed tanks like Skarmory, Bronzong etc, who are never going to be scarfed in the first place (of if they are, you may aswell declare a win then and there).

3.More than two Choice users on a team is overkill to me. Two choice Scarf and you'd want some big hitters to back them up, as it's a sacrifice in overall hitting power.

4. I've only ever used ScarfChomp and am currently using ScarfRaptor as my lead.

5. As I said before, nowerdays the only surefire "counters" are the real strong tanks like Cresselia, Blissey etc.

 

[oPlaiD]

My problem with Choice Scarves isn't really how they affect the metagame as a whole; during the course of a regular battle, it doesn't come into play as a really game defining change or anything like that. It's nice to be able to boost a Pokemon so it outspeeds a Gyaradao after a Dragon Dance or something but it's not all that huge of a deal (although maybe it might be if I used some usually slower Pokemon? So far I've mainly scarfed with faster guys like Gengar).

My main issue with Scarves and their effect on the metagame revolves around starters.

Right now, I can't feel safe with a starter Gengar against almost anything that's decently fast unless I myself am Scarfed because anything they run could be, too. I really like to take the upper hand at the start of a battle, so that almost forces me to run a scarf to stay competitive in that little slice of the metagame.

If I didn't feel like it was something that was being almost forced on me to play well in certain aspects of the game (unless my team calls for a slower, bulkier, starter) then I wouldn't mind it so much.

 

[andysensei]

1. That's a hard question. It makes certain pokemon that have bad speed become more viable.. but it also adds a large wtf factor when Gengar outruns your jolly Weavile

2. I think so. But only for outspeeding tanking type pokemon, and for pokemon that are going to be using a speed boosting move like agility, or ability like motor drive.

3. I don't like to have more than 1 pokemon with a choice item. so the answer is 1. and if i have another pokemon with choice band or specs, then 0.

4. I only use it on Porygon-Z

5. Walling them, switching a pokemon with a resistance to its choiced move. Pokemon like Pursuitagross - especially vs something that's running +speed nature, and holding scarf.. with such minimal attack power, gross can come while they're locked into something not ground or fire type, force a switch, and pursuit them.

 

[almino]

1. Due to the fact that it provides a new approach on methods of conduct, I believe that it has a positive impact on the metagame, seeing how it allows opportunities for unique movesets that were unavailable.

2. Magic Numbers still have a purpose, but their meaning is less important when it comes to the issue of Physical/Special sweepers, because of the option present in Choice Scarf. However when battling pokemon that do not have Choice Scarf as a viable option (pokemon that rely on non-attacking moves to assist them), setting a potential counter to outspeed them is still incredibly useful.

3. As of the moment, I have one Choice Scarf user on my team (a Garchomp =P). This is because the rest of my pokemon are not speedy when un-boosted, and thus I find it incredibly useful to have a fast pokemon to handle a potentially dangerous sweeper (or to finish a game, when using it lategame).

4. I have not used a Choice Scarf on a pokemon that has no particular advantage of using one. Because of this, Garchomp is probably the "Weirdest" pokemon I slapped a Choice Scarf on.

5. A little bit of thought is really the best counter, especially if they bring a CSer early to mid game. For example, if it is a ScarfChomp they switch in, I'll switch in my Skarmory to handle the Outrage and proceed to roost it off.

 

[tdub13]

Considering this, discuss:

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness? Yes, since most people expect that pokemon A will outspeed pokemon B and OHKO it, but pokemon B goes first and promptly OHKOs pokemon A, it makes the metagame that much unpredictable.
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore? Yes, since you need certain speed to hit 'insert number' speed to outspeed 'insert pokemon'
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team? 6, but then i'd use a whole team of NUs and not care if i win or lose.
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on? Linoone, and Mr.Mime
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon? defensive wall, revenge killing

 

[Superbro]

Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness? Helping. It gives prediction a whole new meaning. The pre-scarf game (3rd gen... ect) was waaaay more predictable that now. Now you can nab suprize kills with scarfed pokes that almost no one can predict.

Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore? Yes, not every pokemon has a scarf.

How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team? No more than one ever. Ever.

What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on? A max speed togekiss. It rapes almost every type of opener.

Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon? In the case of garchomp and salamence i usualy hit them with a CB mamo ice shard. For others, since they have to chanse of stat upping, i wall them if possible. The best possible thing to do is status them with a wall. Like... if its a scarfed electavire i would wilowisp it with dusknoir, threat neutralized.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Considering this, discuss:

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness?
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore?
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team?
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on?
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon?

1) Improving. Sucky pokes like Kingler and Beedrill can now find their way into teams. Not so much Beedrill...

2) Yes. Unless your opponents team is 100% scarfed, you still have a reason to try to outspeed things.

3) One - two. I have my Choice Scarf Tentacruel on all of my teams, but sometimes another poke needs it too. Though 90% of the time I just have one.

4) Beedrill. lol U-Turn can OHKO Jynx.

5)You assume the worst. If your opponent sends a Tentacruel against your Garchomp, then the Tenatcruel is probably scarfed. Once you realize a poke is scarfed then it isn't much of a threat anymore. They just don't hit hard enough to take out heavy walls.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Zam would carry Scarf more likely to be Tricking it as opposed to outspeeding other stuff etc imo.

Anyhoo, by slapping Scarf on any random poke, you're killing things you're not suppose to, be you're not killing the things you are. etc etc

 

[travisurfer]

It's an interesting item. I don't like the foot race that it has created with fast pokes, but I did use a Timid Scarf Vaporeon and got tons of surprise kills. You should have seen it when I Ice Beamed one guy's Subseed Sceptile :)

 

[Phatkav]

Considering this, discuss:

1. Is the Choice Scarf hampering or improving the metagame, in regards to strategy, originality, and effectiveness?
2. Are there meanings to Magic Numbers anymore?
3. How many Choice Scarfers are you willing to use on a team?
4. What is the wierdest thing you slapped a choice scarf on?
5. Finally, how do you go about countering these speedy pokemon?

1. I really think it is improving the metagame.. Now slow Pokemons with massive Attack/Sp. Attack no longer have to worry about getting outspeed. I also see Scarf to add a new layer of strategy to the game. For example, your Dragonite/Salamence killed something and it wasn't Choiced. I send out Metagross. Now you will be like "Noob, Flamethrower time", but really, I'm just carrying a Choice Scarf Metagross that wants to Ice Punch your Dragon. So it does make you think if the opposing Pokemon is Scarfed or not and what you should do.

2. To be honest, I never bothered with that concept. I just check the Smogon Analyses for how many Speed EVs I need.

3. I usually use one, but if my team really needs another revenge killer I will use a second one. Though usually, my second revenge killer will be int he form of Dugtrio/Weavile

4. Metagross, maybe. I also slapped Choice Scarf on Gyarados once. Though the weirdest Scarf user I have seen was a Scarf Skarmory.

5. I counter them the same way I counter any other sweeper. Switch to a Pokemon that resists their attack.

 

[Syberia]

I simply don't like being locked into one move, and I don't like not being able to recover each turn with Leftovers. Call me old-fashioned, but I still use 6x leftovers on my main team, as I hate having to predict right every turn and be eaten away by my own sandstorm if I'm wrong.

 

[umbarsc]

I feel the need to point something out. The reason Choice Scarf Garchomp can be so successfully used is that a Choice Band Dragon Claw will do that exact same amount of damage as a Choice Scarf Outrage with speed benefits, and with a Choice Scarf it's not as risky locking yourself into Outrage. A Lot of Garchomp's counters are Ground-immune or resistant (Mesprit, Cresselia, Weezing, tangrowth), so that's not as much of an issue.

If you're wondering how a Choice Band attack can do the exact same as a Choice Scarf attack, the key is in Base Power. The difference in Adamant Choice Band Garchomp and Adamant Choice Scarf Garchomp is *1.5. The difference in Base Power of Dragon Claw and Outrage is *1.5. So using the formula

(42 * AttStat * AttPower / DefStat / 50 + 2) * 1.5 * TypeEffectiveness

you'll see that the outcome is the same.

42 * 591 * 80 = 1985760
42 * 394 * 120 = 1985760

 

[Fade Away]

I think that choice scarf has certainly broadened the metagame. Scarfed timid Starmie is certainly overkill imo, but on Shoddy, I've seen the shift from modest to timis scarf Gengars, etc. And as the need for more and more speed arises, there will be a point where the metagame switches once again to a more defensive one. I mean, it's only logical that when you reach the point where you can't outspeed it to win, you can wall it to win. So, if the trend continues, I'm guessing more stall teams will be used.