Did you even read his post?
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Clamperl. The forgotten bivalve from hell.
- Thread starter Mr Nude
- Start date
I beat that guy at least 3 times and blissey walls and t-waves it easily. Its a gimmick at best and TR just doesn't last long enough to be all that effective in OU.
Most people don't seem to know how to use Clamperl right. Why the hell did your opponent leave it in on a Blissey? Why didn't they scout your team out before setting up the sweep? Why did you Thunder Wave a Trick Roomer...
Its a late game sweeper, that like most special attackers has trouble with Blissey.
But if you take care of Blissey with either a Dugtrio or Trapinch (Trick Room, why not) not much can get in Clamperl's way.
Or just pair it with Marowak.
I really don't like it when people think a set is bad because they beat someone who doesn't use it well. Try it yourself.
So you're saying that just because something has low HP base means it can't wall? I seem to recall Dusknoir, which only maxes at 294 Hp, is a solid OU.Chris is me said:
I never said Psychic was a bad defensive typing, if you actually read my post you would've realized that. Once again, if you actually throughly read my post you would've read the sentence "gimmicky special wall". I didn't attempt to introduce it as something gamebreaking, because it isn't.
The fact that you dismiss this set as 'shitty' before you even give it a second look. Remeber how 'Chain Chomp' was created? Surgo admitted the set looked bad at first, but after a second view, it turned out to be great. This is not on par with that, but the fact that you dismiss it with one galnce tells me how much you think.
Ok, this one's on me. But seriously, I doubt most people would be able to spell it right without looking at the title. It is so neglected that most people even remembers it exists. So, in conclusion, actually read the set throughly before dismissing it without a second glance. Now I see why you had the ICBB title, as your posts contributes no discussion and simply bashes other people's sets or is just ignorant.
Blissey with TR outspeeds and 2hko's dugtrio with ice beam and there are better late game sweepers that are not almost 100% dependent on TR. Again its a gimmick that is very situational. Also it wasn't that he didn't know how to use it, their was just little he could do as his TR pokemon were weakening. More often then not Blissey will be around late game which is a problem for it.
This is sig-worthy. Thunder Wave barely hurts it (other than the 25% hax).
Well I seem to recall Dusknoir having better defenses, a better Attack stat, and an actual movepool. Oh, and note that he's never used as a generic physical wall... as he has shitty HP. Dusknoir's low HP stops him from taking many hits, and Clamperl's 274 HP, even with 400 Special Defense (and a Thunderbolt weakness!), just simply will not work as a Special wall. Plus Lanturn completely outclasses it. And you don't have Leftovers. And it sucks.
You said that Psychic was a bad defensive typing and that Water was better:
I think you stand corrected.
It's not even close to par with that. It's. not. a. viable. option. Chain Chomp wasn't originally viewed as crappy, was it? Oh wait, they had these things that we call damage calcs that people put up to see how effective it is. You don't make sets by randomly throwing out half plausible ideas and then getting ridiculously defensive about them. You calculate.
So, uh, it's 2 points lower than Hypno on some scale? Sorry, I don't know Defense Tiers. Show me some calcs. Uh, also, if you think "ooh defensive item + Rest/Sleep Talk" that doesn't make you the "creator" of a set.
I admire the way you make a counter argument by comparing a OU to a NFE. And the way a common weakness makes it not a wall. OH NOEZ DUSKNOIR IS WEAK TO SHADOW BALL! WE SHOULD ALL USE MILTANK BECUZ IT'S NOT WEAK TO GHOST!!! Yea, really great argument. How does Lanturn completely outclass it again? Lanturn is weak to the ever common Earthquake, while Clamperl is not. It's great that you are comparing a gimmicky NU set to a standard UU. I don't even see the reason why you're stressing the lack of Leftovers, as Deepseascale is the selling point of the, once again, gimmick set.
You're right, I do stand corrected. I said Psychic isn't a great defensive type. So could you point out where I actually said it was a bad defensive typing?
So, CB Zapdos isn't a viable option as well because it's crappy as well? I wonder why it's listed in the analysis? Do you play NU/UU? How would you know it's not a viable option? If the tiers were sorted out more, it could be a ok option for OU.
I, or anyone else for that matter, would find damage calcs from 50+ Pokemon and then have the Smogon Community say it's not a viable set. Since your belief that this is not a viable set is so strong, why are you even wanting damage calcs?
I don't care if you don't knwo the defense tiers, this wasn't written for you. And so, uh, I guess the 'Post Creative Pokemon Sets' thread means nothing to you then as this is a 'Creative Set.' You are missing the point here. Yes, Clamperl is outclassed by several Pokemon, but as Bologo would say, 'it has it's niches in the NU/UU metagame.'
I'm only going to assume you meant EQ or something. XD Seeing as how Lanturn is immune to tbolt (and heals off it actually).
I'm not sure what niche Spec-def clamperl fits that <insert bulky water of choice> doesn't do better though. Gimmicks are amusing only when they work, and I'm not seeing much use for the deepseascale clamperl personally.
You caught me...You're right, although it propably has some use in NU.
Actually, it doesn't hit harder than LO Deoxys-A, so don't say it does.
It hits exactly as hard as Choice Specs Omastar but without the Specs, which is pretty damn hard.
By the way, you can't call using deepseascale "creative" as the item exists to encourage people to use it, so sorry you're not creative.
(waits for hype to die down)
Wait, you never expected something with an x2 item and 75 SAtk to be just like Marowak on the Special side?
It hits exactly as hard as Choice Specs Omastar but without the Specs, which is pretty damn hard.
By the way, you can't call using deepseascale "creative" as the item exists to encourage people to use it, so sorry you're not creative.
(waits for hype to die down)
Wait, you never expected something with an x2 item and 75 SAtk to be just like Marowak on the Special side?
It takes hits about as well as Dugtrio (read: one resisted STAB hit, and that's all).
I think I might sig this. So if a Pokemon has a move that encourages it to be used, it's not creative? Well I guess by your logic every set in this thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29250 isn't creative because the moves on the sets 'encourage' them to be used?
Cool idea... Do you have any idea what it would be able to do to standard jolly dry skin toxicroak with no sp or def ev's?
Um, why would post this shitty assumption of yours when he already posted proof that it was at least as effective as the other UU special walls in terms of pure special walling capabilities.
"Shitty" isn't the appropriate word; "outclassed" is better.
One day I'll write a Defense Tier article >_>
Listen man, you can't just look at a Pokemon's HP or its Sp. Defense and say "Wow, that Pokemon is good/sucks". It is just bad logic. Indeed, Despite Shuckle's lackluster HP, Shuckle's Sp. Survivability is comparable to Bold Blissey's in a Sandstorm, while offering significantly higher Physical Defense to boot. (Similarly, Blissey's Lackluster Defense does not stop the fact that Bold 252/252 Blissey is comparable to 0/0 T-Tar in Physical Defense) The solution is of course to combine HP and (Sp) Defense together into a single number. And thats where Defense Tiers come in. I don't claim that Defense Tiers are perfect (indeed, SkarmCents/BlissCents were created to address some of their faults), but they are certainly a step up.
Modest DeepSeaScale Clamperl hits 121.75 Sp. Def Tier.
Calm Lanturn (40HP /240 Sp. Def) == 121.70 Sp. Def Tier.
This means that Clamperl actually has slightly higher survivability than Lanturn after taking into account the DeepSeaScale. Lanturn however gets the benefits of leftovers and arguably a better typing.
Its a gimmick yes, but with it taking attacks about as well as Lanturn would on the Sp. Def side, it is somewhat viable.
Dusknoir 252 HP + 252 Def == 121.65 Defense Tier. This is lower than Clamperl's Sp. Def Tier. Therefore, Clamperl's Sp. raw survivability is (slightly) better than Dusknoir's Physical raw survivability.
Please, do some calculations yourself before making claims.
He has calculated the defense tier of Clamperl. Between two people who know Defense Tiers, the defense tier is all you need to say to get a good idea of the walling abilities of a Pokemon. I'd say that is a calculation.
As stated earlier, IMO, a Defense Tier calculation is a calculation. It tells you everything you need to know about a Pokemon's reletive walling capability. Anyway... The scale is one "nature". So if Clamperl had 2 more "natures" that increased it's Sp. Def, then it would be approxamately taking the same damage as Hypno would. (IE: If Clamperl was Calm instead of Modest, then it would be 1 tier away from Hypno).
As for a damage calculation, I'm too lazy. But if there was an attack that did 30% damage to Hypno (with those EVs), then it would do ~36.3% damage to Clamperl (with those EVs). More info in my sig.
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As for some notes so that no one is confused on my stance: I think the Clamperl set probably isn't too good, but for reasons other than it's Sp. Defense. The Defense Tier calculation is rock solid and definitely shows that little Clamperl has much more survivability than I thought it did.
Well, the Deoxys point was you can't say that this thing is more powerful than Deoxys. It would be if 540 were its Special Attack stat, but unlike Deoxys, Clamperl can't use an item.
I meant to say it was like Specs Omastar without the Choice. Whoops.
Uh, yeah, sorry for being an idiot-douche about the Deepseascale tank. It's still not that good a set (low HP holds it back a bit, weak to Thunderbolt, no attacking power), but I shoulda, like, checked my assumptions. That and I shouldn't be such a jackass.
Defense Tiers actually sound cool. Yay logarithmic scales.
I meant to say it was like Specs Omastar without the Choice. Whoops.
Uh, yeah, sorry for being an idiot-douche about the Deepseascale tank. It's still not that good a set (low HP holds it back a bit, weak to Thunderbolt, no attacking power), but I shoulda, like, checked my assumptions. That and I shouldn't be such a jackass.
Defense Tiers actually sound cool. Yay logarithmic scales.
That says less about Clamperl and more about the stupidity of your opponents switching in a Deoxys-S into a trick room. Clamperl will never outspeed Deoxys-S outside of trickroom and a 252 hp quiet Clamperl is always OHKO'd by LO Deoxys-S's thunderbolt. So outside of trickroom, Clamperl should never see a Deoxys, and anyone stupid enough to switch a speed form Deoxys into a trick room deserves to lose it.
Would you mind directing me to that article? It's 1:40 and I can't be bothered going further than the non-existent entry in the main site's strategy dex.
The huge problem with any Deepseascale set is that even though Clamperl may be a viable wall, it lacks the ability to actually do anything or even heal itself outside of Rest and Aqua Ring. You can't do much off 74 special attack.
Well-appreciated. I can't get there from the Dex page and just typing in the URL doesn't work for some reason.
Also, didn't realize there was an NFE tier page.