[COMPLETED] Aggron

Fire Punch is a tutor move, yeah; I think I tried to mention that somewhere just as a "Look at what he can do after December" kind of deal.

Seeing as how bulky offense is looking really good this generation, I genuinely want to believe there's merit in an offensive set somewhere. I'll try to draw one up with some supporting calculations in the near future; I've already found some interesting results, and with a more offensive set Mega Aggron has a strong enough move pool to be worthy of some OO's for some of the checks and counters currently listed.
 

Zystral

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[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Aggron possesses unrivalled physical defense in its Mega Form.</li>
<li>It boasts a wide selection of support moves: Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Dragon Tail to name a few.</li>
<li>Filter lets it check damn near not only more-or-less every physical attacker in the game, but even a few special attackers also.</li>
<li>Mono-Steel typing gives it plenty of switch opportunities.</li>
<li>Its high Attack stat prevents Pokemon from freely switching in or setting up.</li>
</u>

[Cons]
<ul>
<li>It's slow. <strong>Very slow.</strong></li>
<li>It's slightly vulnerable on it's special side.</li>
<li>Despite having a good Attack stat, there are Pokemon that can switch in, set up, and completely destroy it.</li>
<li>It has to Mega Evolve before it can become useful, which can put you at a disadvantage because you can't switch it into battle until it has Mega Evolved.</li>
<li>It has no reliable recovery.</li>

[Set recommendations]

<p>name: Tank <br />
move 1: Stealth Rock <br />
move 2: Heavy Slam / Iron Head <br />
move 3: Thunder Wave <br />
move 4: Earthquake / Dragon Tail <br />
item: Aggronite <br />
ability: Filter (Sturdy) <br />
nature: Impish <br />
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD </p>

<p>Say hello to possibly the single greatest physical tank in the game. After a Mega Evolution, Aggron gains a colossal boost to its physical defense and access to Filter, which lets it tank virtually any unboosted physical attack in the game. In short, you can depend on it to check nearly every physical attacker, and even a few special attackers, as long as it's healthy. When it comes to using Stealth Rock, Mega Aggron is one of the most reliable users options in standard; short of using Taunt or Magic Bounce, it's difficult to prevent it from using Stealth Rock. In terms of offense, Heavy Slam is deceptively strong; the weight boost Mega Aggron receives after it has Mega Evolves allows it it to hit more threats for higher damage. Garchomp for instance, is now susceptible to a 100 Base Power Heavy Slam. Unfortunately, Heavy Slam is completely worthless against Pokemon who are also heavy; Mamoswine and Tyranitar take a measly 40BP from Heavy Slam, which is significant because you can't 2HKO them. If Heavy Slam's inability to cover certain threats bothers you, Iron Head can be used. It's generally weaker, but it deals consistent damage. Thunder Wave is one of Mega Aggron's most useful assets; we've already established that Mega Aggron's immense bulk and Filter makes difficult to actually OHKO Mega Aggron, meaning it has easy time paralyzing offensive Pokemon who are matched up against it. Earthquake is useful for dealing with Pokemon who resist Steel-type moves such as Excadrill, Blaziken, and Aegislash (and Tyranitar, if Heavy Slam is used). Dragon Tail is used for shuffling Pokemon around and racking up residual damage</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 170-201 (49.41 - 58.43%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO</li>
<li>252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 158-187 (45.93 - 54.36%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO</li>
<li>252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 186-219 (54.06 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
<li>+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 204-243 (59.3 - 70.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
<li>+2 252+ Atk Aegislash Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 178-210 (51.74 - 61.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
<li>252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Filter Aggron: 219-258 (63.66 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
<li>252 SpA Life Orb Greninga Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aggron: 181-214 (52.61 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
</u>

<p>As you can see, it's pretty much impossible for physical attackers to OHKO Mega Aggron without a boosting move, and even Special Attackers struggle to take it down in one shot. An Impish nature was chosen to take advantage of Mega Aggron's amazing Defense, whereas the EV spread patches up its unimpressive Special Defense stat. A maximized Defense investment can make it even stronger on the physical side, but this leads to diminishing returns as +63 defense to a Defense that's already really high isn't that noticeable. Roar can be used over Dragon Tail; it doesn't deal any damage, but it can force out Substitute users and it doesn't have imperfect accuracy. With all of that said, there are few drawbacks to using Mega Aggron: it has no access to recovery moves or Leftovers, so it can quickly get worn down. The lack of Leftovers is significant because it can't heal its way out of a 2HKO from certain Pokemon (Excadrill and Blaziken for example). As a result, it greatly appreciates Wish support to heal off damage. Sylveon works great here because it has solid synergy with Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron can check some of the Pokemon that counter it and in return, Sylveon can ward off stronger Special Attackers and heal Aggron with Wish. Togekiss similarly functions as a partner to Mega Aggron, and with the added benefit of being immune to Ground-type and the ability to also spread paralysis. Mega Aggron also appreciates Rapid Spin support; due to its complete lack of recovery, it can be worn down by simply switching against teams that employ entry hazards, so the ability to clear them is useful. Rapid Spin or Defog work here, but Rapid Spin is preferred due to its ability to keep Mega Aggron's own entry hazards on the field. Excadrill and Starmie are both reliable; spinners, Starmie gets the overall nod due to its ability to better check Mega Aggron's counters, but they're both generally both good choices. Dragon-types in general make for decent offensive partners, since mainly because they love Mega Aggron's ability to deal with Fairy-types and opposing Dragons and in return they can somewhat check Mega Aggron's counters.</p>

<p>name: RestTalk <br >
move 1: Rest <br >
move 2: Sleep Talk <br >
move 3: Heavy Slam / Iron Head <br >
move 4: Earthquake / Dragon Tail <br >
item: Aggronite <br >
ability: Filter (Sturdy) <br >
nature: Impish <br >
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD</p>

<p>This set focuses on long term walling with the Rest + Sleep Talk combination. It does this by fixing Mega Aggron's greatest downside, thereby making it extremely difficult to take down in the process. Rest heals off any damage that Mega Aggron incurs throughout the match, while Sleep Talk still lets you keep up the offensive pressure with its attacking moves. While RestTalk provides Mega Aggron with a means of sticking around, it loses out on its best supporting moves. As a result, this set is much more team-oriented than the previous set. It appreciates having Pokemon that can cover its checks and counters. Rotom-W can deal with nearly all of its counters, and it can provide Mega Aggron with a means of switching into battle via Volt Switch. This set greatly appreciates having entry hazards on the field, due to the fact that it's prone to causing switches and Dragon Tail can shuffle Pokemon.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Defensive Pokemon who don't particularly care for its attacks are good counters. Hippowdon can effortlessly switch in, wall it, and beat Mega Aggron with repeated uses of Earthquake. Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn disregard all of Mega Aggron's moves (barring the rare Fire Punch) and set up on it. Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Rotom-W, and Politoed can sponge just about anything Mega Aggron throws at them, and wear it down with their Water-type moves or even potentially burn it. Gliscor is also a solid counter, though Heavy Slam hits for 120BP, so it should be wary of taking a healthy Mega Aggron head on. Generally speaking, bulky Special attackers (such as Reuniclus) will come out on top against Mega Aggron.</p>

<p>Countering Mega Aggron with offensively-inclined Pokemon can prove a bit challenging due to its incredible defenses and access to Thunder Wave. Aegislash, Blaziken, Excadrill, and Lucario can take it out, but only if it has been weakened to the point where their STAB moves can OHKO it, otherwise it can OHKO each of them with Earthquake. Garchomp is on a higher class than the aforementioned Pokemon, mainly because it isn't bothered by any of Mega Aggron's moves, and deals significant damage to it with Earthquake (or even Fire Blast if Garchomp has Mega Evolved). Fire-type Special Attackers are among the only Pokemon in the game that can take out Mega Aggron in one strike. Volcarona and specially offensive Blaziken can flat out OHKO Mega Aggron with Fire Blast, but they should be wary of Earthquake and Thunder Wave.</p>
 
I did some more thorough analysis for an offensive set, and I regrettably have to concede that you're right. At least for now.

My best idea for an offensive set looks something like this:

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter (Sturdy)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Impish / Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam / Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Brick Break / Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

Brick Break with this EV spread is a guaranteed OHKO on Tyranitar and a likely OHKO on Mamoswine with Stealth Rock support. Stone Edge can OHKO Cloyster and generally break any physical wall that takes super-effective damage, on top of generally destroying most Flying-types. It can break a few walls here and there, but it seems best designed for checking and destroying a lot of physical sweepers that would otherwise be problematic. After one Rock Polish it can out-speed a lot of heavy-hitting Choice Band users even without Speed investment.

This set might become a lot more viable once Pokemon Bank drops, because it loves having access to Fire Punch and Ice Punch. Fire Punch lets it break Skarmory and Ferrothorn, who would otherwise stop Mega Aggron dead in its tracks, while Ice Punch gives it a lot more leverage against Dragons and allows it to break Gliscor, who again would otherwise give Mega Aggron problems.

I initially considered also slashing Shadow Claw against Reuniclus, Starmie, and other bulky Psychic-types, but even against Ghost-types Heavy Slam is sufficient enough to get the job done and Shadow Claw just can't kill the others fast enough. Reuniclus will give it problems regardless.
 

PK Gaming

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With all due respect, the set you post doesn't look appealing at all. You can't sweep those weak coverage moves (Ice Punch is necessary to break through Gliscor and Garchomp, and without Fire Punch you can't break through Forretress or Ferrothorn). I also question the use of Brick Break, because outside of Tyranitar (who is already beaten by Earthquake) it's a weak coverage move. Your set is also lacking in the Speed department (Base 100+ Pokemon still outspeed you at +2) and damage output. (Mega Aggron needs Adamant)

Maybe when Pokebank hits things might change, but as of right now? I don't think so.
 
Been playing around with it in a sand and trick room team respectively:

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter (Sturdy)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Impish / Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam/ Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Metal Burst/ Payback

Sand helps it on the special side. Trick Room for taking one less hit against non-defensives and pseudo-sweep. Metal Burst is either for Sturdy-Metal Burst combo against set-up checks or to not switch out against a King's Shield.
 
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Flamimantits said:
Sand helps it on the special side.
Actually, no, it doesn't. Aggron loses its rock-typing after mega evolving, so it no longer gets the special defense boost from sand after doing so.
 
With all due respect, the set you post doesn't look appealing at all. You can't sweep those weak coverage moves (Ice Punch is necessary to break through Gliscor and Garchomp, and without Fire Punch you can't break through Forretress or Ferrothorn). I also question the use of Brick Break, because outside of Tyranitar (who is already beaten by Earthquake) it's a weak coverage move. Your set is also lacking in the Speed department (Base 100+ Pokemon still outspeed you at +2) and damage output. (Mega Aggron needs Adamant)

Maybe when Pokebank hits things might change, but as of right now? I don't think so.
I've had a bit more time to learn about how things roll in competitive play and I see where the downfalls lie now. I also didn't realize that Aggron can learn Superpower as an Egg Move already, which makes Brick Break pointless.

I see now that Mega Aggron could never serve as a true sweeper, but perhaps when PokeBank drops it could become a decent wallbreaker and a solid check to physical threats with an offensive set. As it stands now it can definitely still deal some damage, but Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave support seems to be the way to go.
 

Colonel M

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Jibaku, dtc, and a few other users including myself were discussing about Mega Aggron. We think that there should be a moveset similar to this:

- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Superpower is damn useful since Mega Aggron is one of the better checks to Mega Kangaskhan and Superpower does well over 80% of damage to it as well. Superpower is also a good option against some of the heavier Pokemon like Snorlax. At worst it deserves a slash or a mention.
 

PK Gaming

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I can do that.

Superpower and Rock Slide have both been incorporated into the main set for now (Dragon Tail is AC now because it's niche)

I removed all mentions of Blaziken; does anyone have any replacement Pokemon I can mention in the calculations section? I was thinking of Charizard-X, but I can't find any calcs that incorporates the 33% boost to attack from Tough Claws.
 
I'm not an official guy, or anything, but I did notice this one thing. There is one lingering mention of Mega Gengar in the calculations section. Since Mega Gengar is banned, it should be removed (it might be useful to give to the thread on the Ubers analysis, though).
 
<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>252 Atk Life Orb Charizard-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 166-199 (48.25 - 57.84%) -- 92.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
I don't believe Charizard X can hold a Life Orb. That aside, this calculation is slightly off:

+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Tough Claws] Charizard X Flare Blitz (120 Base Power) vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 166-198 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO, Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

<li>252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 158-187 (45.93 - 54.36%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO</li>
+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Mold Breaker] Excadrill w/Life Orb Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 190-226 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.

EDIT: I'm stupid. The Excadrill analysis recommends Adamant as the nature, so this is what it should look like:

+0 252 ATK (Adamant) [Mold Breaker] Excadrill w/Life Orb Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) - Guaranteed 2HKO.

<li>252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 186-219 (54.06 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Adaptability] Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

<li>+2 252+ Atk Aegislash Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 178-210 (51.74 - 61.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
+2 252 ATK (Brave) [Sword Forme] Aegislash Sacred Sword w/Leftovers vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO, 90.2% after Stealth Rock.
+2 252 ATK (Brave) [Sword Forme] Aegislash Sacred Sword w/Life Orb vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 156-184 (59 - 69.7%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.

<li>252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 219-258 (63.66 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
+0 252 SPA (Timid) [Levitate] Gengar w/Black Sludge Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SDEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 178-211 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.
+0 252 SPA (Timid) [Levitate] Gengar w/Life Orb Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SDEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 232-275 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.

<li>252 SpA Life Orb Greninga Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Aggron: 181-214 (52.61 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO</li>
This one is actually right, haha.

So, there you go. These should all be correct.
 
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PK Gaming

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I don't believe Charizard X can hold a Life Orb. That aside, this calculation is slightly off:
+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Tough Claws] Charizard X Flare Blitz (120 Base Power) vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 166-198 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO, Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
I substituted Life Orb over Tough Claws because I assumed they provided the same boosts. (Apparently Tough Claws is stronger?)
+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Mold Breaker] Excadrill w/Life Orb Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: 190-226 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.
...? Are you suggesting I use Jolly Mold Breaker over Adamant Sand Rush? I can do that.
+0 252 ATK (Jolly) [Adaptability] Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) [Filter] Mega Aggron: (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
... Alright.
This one is actually right, haha.

I've only implemented the rest of your calculations (I've limited the double-calculations to just Life Orb, though)

Thanks!
 
I substituted Life Orb over Tough Claws because I assumed they provided the same boosts. (Apparently Tough Claws is stronger?)
Bulbapedia says Tough Claws provides a 33% boost when Life Orb is just 30% - so slightly stronger~

...? Are you suggesting I use Jolly Mold Breaker over Adamant Sand Rush? I can do that.
OOPS NO I AMENDED THAT WHEN YOU POSTED THIS

I'm actually recommending Adamant Mold Breaker, because it mirrors what is suggested by the Excadrill analysis as it stands right now. Mold Breaker is going to be the most common ability on Excadrill because it lets him slam Rotom-W (and other Levitate Pokemon) hardcore, and without the permanent Sand Storm runnin' 'round, Mold Breaker is just going to be the better ability overall.

I've only implemented the rest of your calculations (I've limited the double-calculations to just Life Orb, though)
I didn't mean to imply that you should use them all, or something! I was trying to mirror your results with Pokemon like Aegislash (how did you end up with 51%~?) and I didn't know if you were calculating a Life orb or Leftovers set.

Not a problem, yo.

EDIT: One important detail I brought up in the Mega Aggron discussion thread was the fact that 0 Ivs and a Relaxed nature lets you OHKO opposing Aegislash with Earthquake since you outslow them. I haven't thumbed through the entire analysis, but if this hasn't been mentioned anywhere I think it should be.
 

PK Gaming

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Done

I don't see point to running 0 Speed IVs, since a Relaxed nature already lets you underspeed Aegislash, and I don't want to get into a negative Speed creep war with Aegislash. It's possible that 0 Speed IVs will prevent you from outspeeding fast-paralyzed Pokemon.
 
Done

I don't see point to running 0 Speed IVs, since a Relaxed nature already lets you underspeed Aegislash, and I don't want to get into a negative Speed creep war with Aegislash.


Actually, it doesn't.

Aegislash is base 60 Speed, and Aggron is base 50. Aegislash with a Quiet/Brave Nature and 0 Speed Ivs nets him a Speed stat of 112. Aggron, with only a Relaxed nature, hits 122 Speed. If Aggron has 0 IVs and a Relaxed nature, though, he hits 94. I was under the impression that "Speed creep" referred to things like single-point increments to the stat - is it really "Speed creep" if Aggron is a whole 10 base points slower than Aegislash? He will always be slower than Aegislash with a Relaxed Nature and 0 IVs, and there's nothing Aegislash can do about it, either.

EDIT: Of course, this also assumes that Aegislash would be running a 0 Speed IV, anyways. If that's not common enough, though, then I'm arguing into the wind over absolutely nothing important and a Relaxed nature would be just fine, as you mentioned.

I should have checked the Aegislash analysis first to see what was being recommended, heh. Just ignore me, then~

It's possible that 0 Speed IVs will prevent you from outspeeding fast-paralyzed Pokemon.
About that last point; Paralysis reduces the Speed stat to 25% of its original value, right? That would mean that Aggron would fail to outrun Pokemon with a stat of 377 or more, which would be base 252 Positive Nature base ~120's and 252 Positive Nature base ~66 with a Scarf. And also everything in between. Are there any important Pokemon that come to mind? Ones that he couldn't already beat I mean.

Not that I'm trying to push very hard for this or anything. If it really doesn't have any merit then just ignore me, haha.
 
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PK Gaming

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The main point of contention is that Aegislash itself doesn't run 0 Speed IVs. If it did,\ you'd certainly have a point, however...



None of Aegislash's sets run 0 Speed IVs. One could argue that Aegislash should have 0 Speed IVs by default to underspeed Relaxed Aggron, but that's precisely my point; it's a form of Speed creep, but in the other direction. We would be forced to give Aggron 0 Speed IVs after the fact, and that's something I want to avoid.
About that last point; Paralysis reduces the Speed stat to 25% of its original value, right? That would mean that Aggron would fail to outrun Pokemon with a stat of 377 or more, which would be base 252 Positive Nature base ~120's and 252 Positive Nature base ~66 with a Scarf. And also everything in between. Are there any important Pokemon that come to mind? Ones that he couldn't already beat I mean.
The big one that comes to mind is Greninja (377) and several scarfers in the 95+ range(Genesect being a big one). You actually outrun paralyzed Choice Scarf Salamence with 8 Speed EVs. There's little point to using 0 Speed IVs until the Aigislash vs Mega Aggron becomes notable.
 

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