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[COMPLETED] Bisharp

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by Shroomisaur, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    [​IMG]
    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>Bisharp possesses a high base Attack stat, as well as Swords Dance to boost it.</li>
    <li>It has one of the strongest priority moves in the game in STAB Sucker Punch.</li>
    <li>Defiant allows it to laugh at Sticky Web, Intimidate, King's Shield, and more.</li>
    <li>The nerf to the Steel-type is a blessing in disguise: Bisharp no longer needs Fighting-type moves to hit opposing Steels, and is the only Steel-type in the game that still resists Ghost.</li>
    <li>It has a decent Defense stat with plenty of resistances.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Its low base Speed makes Bisharp rely on Sucker Punch mind games with faster foes.</li>
    <li>A weak Special Defense stat leaves it vulnerable to even neutral special hits.</li>
    <li>Bisharp is hindered by weaknesses to common attacking types, including a crippling 4x Fighting weakness.</li>
    <li>Bisharp's main moves suffer from low Base Power.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>name: Swords Dance<br />
    move 1: Swords Dance<br />
    move 2: Sucker Punch<br />
    move 3: Iron Head<br />
    move 4: Night Slash / Substitute<br />
    ability: Defiant<br />
    item: Dread Plate / Lum Berry / Leftovers<br />
    evs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe<br />
    nature: Adamant</p>

    <p>Bisharp was a Pokemon firmly planted in UU last generation. Powerful priority was not enough to offset its poor Speed and mediocre defenses, and nothing seems to have improved for it in XY. However, many of the changes have indirectly worked in Bisharp's favor. Most notably, Bisharp's unique Dark / Steel typing is better than ever, as Bisharp is now the only Steel-type in the game to resist the increasingly popular Ghost-type moves. The new Fairy-type, which resists Bisharp's signature Dark-type moves, happens to be crushed by his secondary Steel-type STAB. Bisharp also possesses an ability in Defiant that allows Bisharp to laugh at moves such as Sticky Web and King's Shield, giving it a new niche in OU.</p>

    <p>Bisharp's claim to fame has always been an incredibly powerful Sucker Punch combined with the boosting potential of Swords Dance. Bisharp can utilize its unique typing and decent defenses to switch into resisted attacks, and then use Swords Dance to boost its high base 125 Attack even higher. Once it has a Swords Dance under its belt, Bisharp is incredibly difficult to stop, because Sucker Punch destroys many faster threats that would otherwise threaten Bisharp. A +2 STAB Dread Plate Sucker Punch is incredibly powerful, scoring outright OHKOs on attackers such as Excadrill, Mega Charizard X, and even Garchomp after Stealth Rock damage. Against targets that resist Dark-type moves, Bisharp can use STAB Iron Head to deal heavy damage. A +2 Iron Head is scores an OHKO on every pure Fairy-type in the game, and even has a good chance to KO Azumarill after Stealth Rock. Finally, Bisharp uses Night Slash in the final slot as a reliable Dark-type move, since Sucker Punch can easily be played around by your opponent. Night Slash is most notable for guaranteeing a KO on Aegislash, while Defiant negates the King's Shield effect.</p>

    <p>This set must be played carefully, because Sucker Punch is very easy to exploit. Substitute can be used over Night Slash to ease Sucker Punch prediction and protect Bisharp from status, but the lack of reliable Dark STAB will hurt against Aegislash. If Substitute is used, Leftovers should be the item of choice to provide recovery. Lum Berry is an option which allows Bisharp to keep Night Slash while protecting it from the likes of Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp. The EVs provide maximum power, and the Speed EVs are specifically chosen to outspeed uninvested Rotom-W and 2HKO with Night Slash. The remainder is invested in HP, giving Bisharp decent bulk; it always survives Donphan's Earthquake at full HP.</p>

    <p>Bisharp appreciates special attacking teammates that can take out physical walls. Starmie and Rotom-W are partners with great typing and the ability to defeat bulky Ground-types that wall Bisharp. Volcarona and Mega Charizard Y are excellent choices to defeat bulky Steel-type walls. Good defensive teammates for Bisharp should be able to cover Bisharp's Fighting weakness, and include Slowbro, Gyarados, and Gourgeist. </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bisharp struggles with extremely bulky physical walls. Ground-types including Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Donphan can take a hit and strike back with a STAB Earthquake. Unaware Quagsire ignores Bisharp's boosts and can threaten with Scald and Earthquake. Steel-types such as Skarmory and Mega Aggron easily tank a +2 Night Slash and can phaze Bisharp out. Bisharp also possesses a crippling Fighting weakness, so bulky Fighting-types such as Conkeldurr make great counters. Mach Punch Breloom and Vacuum Wave Lucario outspeed Sucker Punch and can easily take out Bisharp. Finally, Pokemon with a faster Will-O-Wisp or Substitute can abuse Bisharp's reliance on Sucker Punch, and Dark-resistant sweepers such as Lucario and Mega Gyarados can take a hit and KO in return. </p>
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  2. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    A Choice Scarf set is very much worth considering. Base 70 Speed allows you to hit 358 Speed with a Scarf, Maximum Investment and Adamant, which outspeeds Base 110, Positive nature, max EV no boosts, as well as Max+ Tornadus.
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Tornadus isn't even released yet, so that doesn't matter. I'm skeptical about a Scarf because Bisharp doesn't have too much power unboosted, but I'll try it out and possibly update after I see how it goes.

    I already had planned on trying out a CB set as suggested in the UT thread, but I'll try CS too. More opinions from QC members are always welcomed!

    In the meantime, here is some required viewing for all members!
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  4. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    clicked link expecting power rangers, wasn't disappointed.

    CS Bisharp is primarily played as a revenge killer who preys on super effective hits with Iron Head and Night Slash, taking shit like Gengar and Carbink down. A CB/SD set is meant to sweet wholeheartedly, but CS isn't about power; you'll be using your SE hits to get those. Brick Break or Stone Edge would be your final move of choice here. Alternatively, Thunder Wave is a TM that is available, but I suspect that this'll be bad here unless you're playing Bisharp as a wallbreaker who needs to spread paralysis around the opposing team because everything else you're using is also slow.

    Side theory; Bisharp does have Base 100 Defense, could it support Chople Berry at all? or are all the fighting types too stronk for that?
  5. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

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    Gyarados has higher survivability against electric special attacks (95HP/100SpD) (when its not mega), and is still OHKO'd easily by Stab 4x se Thunderbolts from a variety of pokes, I'm going to assume that Bisharp, with lower stats (65HP/100Dfp), would be wasted even with chople berry from the ever common Close Combat, Superpower, and to a lesser extent, Hammer Arms. Might be useful for Mach Punch from weaker opponents though.
  6. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Bisharp: 283-335 (93.7 - 110.92%)
    252 SpA Adaptability MegaLucario Vacuum Wave vs. 124 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Bisharp: 248-296 (82.11 - 98.01%)

    Fighting too stronk. These attacks are obvious and Bisharp makes a great partner to Ghost-types anyway. He resists Dark and Ghost, while Ghosts can handle his Fighting and Ground weaknesses. TWave is an interesting option to solve Bisharp's speed woes but it's hard to find a spot for it. Maybe once he gains SR a more defensive utility set might be viable.

    I've tried CS Bisharp a few times tonight and he's really underwhelming. He suffers from Weavile-itis, his strongest move is only 120 BP including STAB. Locking yourself into a 75 BP Brick Break just doesn't seem worth it at all. He's still outsped by Scarf Magnezone and up, even with Scarf, and lacks the power to pull it off when so many things could do it better.

    Also, Scarf kinda messes with his ability to abuse Sticky Web with defiant, since you'll grab the boost but be locked into a single move at only 239 Speed. However, right now it's pretty much impossible for me to test Bisharp's potential since Defiant is bugged on PS (Turn 16: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oubeta-59690579 ).

    I still need to test CB, although I'm wondering if a Dark Plate might work better? A CB set would probably have Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Iron Head / Night Slash | Low Sweep anyway so Dark Plate might be a solid option.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Definitely slash Dread Plate on the main set. Imo it should be slashed first as it lets you OHKO Garchomp after a SD and the power boost is very relevant and helpful in general.
  8. Scene

    Scene reverie
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    There's no reason to use Night Slash over Knock Off, so I'd replace it. You're sacrificing 5 extra BP against itemless/Mega opponents for superb utility and less power on opponents with items (I'm guessing a substantial proportion of your targets).
  9. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I've been coming to the same conclusion. The extra power really helps secure those important KOs. Updated!

    As I said right at the top in the cons section, Knock Off is illegal... otherwise it would already be in the set.
  10. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Well after some more testing, I've found any choice set including CB isn't worth it. It can't OHKO Aegislash with CB Night Slash, and can't guarantee a Sucker Punch OHKO on Excadrill without Spikes. Bisharp is very reliant on Sucker Punch, and choice-locked Sucker Punch is pretty much the worst thing ever. Black Glasses gives him a good boost on his key moves while allowing him to SD and switch moves, and once Bisharp gets a boost, Defiant makes him very tough to stop.

    Unless there are any objections, I think this one set is all Bisharp needs. This is now QC ready!
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    QC APPROVED 1/3
  12. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    yea this looks good, great job.

    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED 2/3
  13. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thank you for the (incredibly awesome) stamp!

    Just one more to go, I'll get the write-up in the OP.
  14. ZerokLd

    ZerokLd

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    Does bisgarp get sucker punch via level up?
  15. veteranpython

    veteranpython

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    You have to breed for it. Good news is that Croagunk learns it naturally, so there's that.
  16. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA I am the King.
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    You have to write this up before you get the final qc approval. Also please give Quagsire a mention.
  17. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Oh, the write-up was already there, I just had it in spoiler tags so it was probably easy to miss. Updating the OP and adding a mention of Quag.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Remove this.

    Make it ''.... to even neutral special hits''

    This is a con in comparison to the PokeBank meta, something that is unneeded, so remove it.

    Make sure to mention that Mega Kangaskhan and Talonflame have their own priority to bypass Sucker Punch however, as well as WoW in Talonflame's case. Imo, you should replace those two with other common threats that cannot easily bypass Sucker Punch.

    Your checks and counters section is missing, so add one.

    Do those and you will have my stamp.
  19. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Everything's taken care of!
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Iirc you need SR up to secure the OHKO on Garchomp with +2 Sucker Punch, so if it's true mention it.

    Add faster status and Sub users as checks, such as WoW Rotom-W, WoW Talonflame, and WoW Mega Char X.


    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  21. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    You're right, fixed that and added a bit about fast sub and WoW being able to abuse Sucker Punch. Thanks for the stamp!

    EDIT: Also updated to new format. Time for GP!
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  22. piikachuu

    piikachuu now with a scarf
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    [Pros]
    (these should be complete sentences)
    <ul>
    <li>Possesses high base attack and SD to boost Bisharp possesses a high base Attack stat, as well as Swords Dance to boost it.</li>
    <li>One It has of the strongest priority moves in the game in STAB Sucker Punch.(period)</li>
    <li>Defiant allows him it to laugh at Sticky Web, Intimidate, King's Shield, and more.(period)</li>
    <li>Steel nerf The nerf to the Steel-type is a blessing in disguise: Bisharp no longer needs Fighting-type moves to hit opposing Steels, and is the only Steel-type in the game that still resists Ghost.(period)</li>
    <li>Decent physical defense It has a decent Defense with plenty of resistances.(period)</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Low base speed Its low base Speed makes Bisharp rely on Sucker Punch guessing mind games with faster foes.</li>
    <li>Bad special defense A weak Special Defense leaves him it vulnerable to even neutral special hits.</li>
    <li>Bisharp is hindered by weaknesses to common attacking types, including a crippling 4x Fighting weakness.</li>
    <li>Bisharp's main moves suffer from low Base Power.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>name: Swords Dance<br />
    move 1: Swords Dance<br />
    move 2: Sucker Punch<br />
    move 3: Iron Head<br />
    move 4: Night Slash / Substitute<br />
    ability: Defiant<br />
    item: Dread Plate / Lum Berry / Leftovers<br />
    evs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe<br />
    nature: Adamant</p>

    <p>Bisharp was a Pokemon firmly planted in UU last generation. Powerful priority was not enough to offset its poor sSpeed and mediocre defenses, and nothing seems to have improved for it in X and Y XY. However, many of the changes have indirectly worked in Bisharp's favor. Most notably, Bisharp's unique Dark(space)/(space)Steel typing is better than ever, as Bisharp is now the only Steel-type in the game to resist the increasingly popular Ghost-type moves. The new Fairy-type, which resists Bisharp's signature Dark-type moves, happens to be crushed by his secondary Steel-type STAB. Bisharp also possesses an ability in Defiant that allows Bisharp to laugh at moves such as Sticky Web and King's Shield, giving it a new niche in OU.</p>

    <p>Bisharp's claim to fame has always been an incredibly powerful Sucker Punch combined with the boosting potential of Swords Dance. Bisharp can utilize its unique typing and decent defenses to switch into resisted attacks, and then use Swords Dance to boost its high base 125 Attack even higher. Once it has a Swords Dance under its belt, Bisharp is incredibly difficult to stop, because Sucker Punch destroys many faster threats that would otherwise threaten Bisharp. A +2 STAB Dread Plate Sucker Punch is incredibly powerful, scoring outright OHKOs on attackers such as Excadrill, Mega Charizard X, and even Garchomp after SR Stealth Rock damage. Against targets that resist Dark-type moves, Bisharp can use STAB Iron Head to deal heavy damage. A +2 Iron Head is scores an OHKO on every pure Fairy-type in the game, and even has a good chance to KO Azumarill after SR Stealth Rock. Finally, Bisharp uses Night Slash in the final slot as a reliable Dark-type move, since Sucker Punch can easily be played around by your opponent. Night Slash is most notable for guaranteeing a KO on Aegislash, while Defiant negates the King's Shield effect.</p>

    <p>This set must be played carefully, because Sucker Punch is very easy to punish exploit. Substitute can be used over Night Slash to ease Sucker Punch prediction and protect Bisharp from status, but the lack of reliable Dark STAB will hurt against Aegislash. If Substitute is used, Leftovers should be the item of choice to provide recovery. Lum Berry is an option which allows Bisharp to keep Night Slash while protecting it from the likes of Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp. The EVs provide maximum power, and the Speed EVs are specifically chosen to outspeed univested uninvested Rotom-W and 2HKO with Night Slash. The remainder is invested in HP, giving Bisharp decent bulk; it always survives Donphan's Earthquake at full HP.</p>

    <p>Bisharp appreciates special-attacking special attacking teammates that can take out physical walls. Starmie and Rotom-W are partners with great typing and the ability to defeat bulky Ground-types that wall Bisharp. Volcarona or Charizard-Y and Mega Charizard Y are excellent choices to defeat bulky Steel-type walls. Good defensive teammates for Bisharp should be able to cover Bisharp's Fighting weakness, and include Slowbro, Gyarados, and Gourgeist. </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bisharp struggles with extremely bulky physical walls. Ground-types including Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Donphan can take a hit and strike back with a STAB Earthquakes. Unaware Quagsire ignores Bisharp's boosts and can threaten with Scald or and Earthquake. Steel-types like such as Skarmory and Mega Aggron easily tank a +2 Night Slash and can phaze Bisharp out. Bisharp also possesses a crippling Fighting weakness, so bulky Fighting-types like such as Conkeldurr make great counters. Mach Punch Breloom or and Vacuum Wave Lucario outspeed Sucker Punch and can easily take out Bisharp. Finally, Pokemon with a faster Will-O-Wisp or Substitute can abuse Bisharp's reliance on Sucker Punch, and Dark-resistant sweepers like such as Lucario or and Mega Gyarados can take a hit and KO in return. </p>

    gp 1/1
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  23. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thank you! everything has been implemented.

    I guess that makes Bisharp my first completed work here in C&C!
  24. skaybestrog

    skaybestrog

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    I think Gengar definitely deserves a mention in the teammates section since it is just straight up immune to Fighting and Ground-type moves, while it is also a Special Attacker which means they are not walled by the same Pokémon. Normal Gengar's most popular set right now is either Substitute with three attacks or Substitute plus Disable, which both set up on defensive Gliscor, one of the few things that very reliably counters Bisharp (Iron Head Flinch can be problematic for the others), not only because it can take a hit, but because it can outspeed and go for an Earthquake depending on it's speed investment. Gengar also sets up on Garchomp if it is using the Outrage / Eartquake combination without Stone Edge. It also switches into Hippowdon and Donphan very comfortably, because the only 'offensive' moves Hippowdon will be using are Toxic, Earthquake and Ice Fang, out of which only Ice Fang hits you and does pitiful damage. Of course it can always phaze so straight up attacking is probably a better choice than setting up a Substitute. Donphan can possibly surprise you with a Head Smash, which is problematic, but that move is very rare on it. If you prefer using Mega-Gengar over normal Gengar you still get all those benefits before evolving whilst being able to trap all of Bisharp's counters with some prior damage, enabling an easy sweep. Gengar and especially it's Mega-evolution also have fantastic speed which helps offset Bisharps lackluster base-70 speed.

    Well-written analysis. I'll make sure to give Bisharp a try this generation.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  25. silfan

    silfan

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    Shroomi, have you considered Knock Off vs Night Slash?
    Knock Off has 5 less BP than Night Slash, but if the enemy has item that is not Mega Stone, the damage is boosted by 50%.
    Granted Night Slash has higher critical hit chance, but the utility from Knock Off imo is far more useful than small crit chance boost.

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