Project Counter That Pokemon! [Battle Time!]

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We still have quite a few viable mons left; Specially Defensive Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Specially Defensive Amoonguss and maybe Dragalge can all check Gengar. Yes, some of these are more passive but they all have ways to not be easily taken advantage of. Mandi has Whirlwind / Taunt, Amoonguss has Spore, Clear Smog and Foul Play, while Conk, Dragalge and Manaphy still hit decently hard.

As for user RedCat's Chansey, I admit that set is really annoying to face in OU, not just Gengar. However, I have 2 reservations;
(1) picking Chansey means we can't play offense and is reduced to playing Stall or Semi-Stall
(2) Chansey's passiveness causes the opponent to set-up on it. Or they are cornered into choosing a Fighting-type
 
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Figured I might as well make a suggestion.


Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Knock Off

Scizor isn't an optimal user of an Assault Vest, but it does work out in this case. The given EV spread allows Scizor to always dodge the 2HKO from Gengar's Shadow Ball after Rocks, allowing it to come in and trap it with Pursuit, or smack it (or the switch in) with Knock Off.
The main strength of Scizor, though, is how hard it is to completely invalidate it through teambuilding. Even though the opposing team might be able to wall it, it'll still be able to Knock Off items and U-Turn out of counters, grabbing it's team momentum as it does so. On top of that, it gives Team 2 a nice pursuit trapper, so we could possibly pair it with something like Keldeo late in the draft in order to eliminate any defensive Psychic types the team might have picked up.

Anyways, voting starts on the 18th, so be sure to get any nominations in before then.
 
So, let's review what we have so far:

AV Goodra : My nomination. As I state in my original post, Goodra can tank any attack any Special Attackers throw at it and retaliate back with a strong move off fully invested 110 SpA. Goodra also has decent coverage and is not easy to take advantage of. However, it has low Speed and low physical bulk with no reliable recovery so it can be worn down easily.

AV Tornadus-T: With an AV, Tornadus can tank any attack from Gengar. It can then outspeed and KO it or U-Turn out to gain momentum and restore 1/3 of it's HP. However, if Stealth Rock is up, Icy Wind + Rocks + Sludge Wave will KO. Still a good choice though since Gengar needs to predict correctly to beat it.

AV Raikou : Similar with Tornadus-T, Raikou can tank a hit and then outspeed and KO Gengar. It can also Volt Switch for momentum grabbing. However, with no recovery, Raikou can only take so many hits before it is worn down (since, unlike Tornadus-T, it doesn't have Regenerator). It does have a better match-up against Gengar to separate it from Torn-T and higher speed to differentiate it from Goodra.

Chansey and Blissey: Gengar can't touch them without Taunt and will wear itself down with LO and Rocks damage. Only issue with the blobs are the lack of offensive presence and the difficulty to use in an offensive team. The lack of offensive presence means the opponent can simply set-up in front of them (example: both blobs can't touch SD Mega Scizor).

Meleotta: Haven't used this before so no comment.

AV Scizor: Interesting pick. This unorthodox set can Pursuit Gengar or grab momentum with U-Turn. However, it isn't particularly powerful and like Goodra, is prone to being worn down.

When is anyone going to nominate a Bisharp? This Gengar has 4 attacking moves so it is easier to predict a Sucker Punch and KO.
Also, Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr and Amoonguss have not been nominated yet.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Bisharp is not in any way a counter because Focus Blast murders you. It can check or revenge this set consistently, but ain't countering.
 
Well since this project is "counter that pokemon", bisharp isn't exactly a counter because the gengar set has focus blast.



Item: Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
• Scald
• U-turn
• Rain Dance
• Rest


*shamelessly stolen from branflake's RMT*

Specially defensive manaphy is a great answer to life orb gengar, as sludge wave is only a 3HKO after stealth rock + leftovers recovery, while without any prior damage, sludge wave is not even a guaranteed 3HKO. Manaphy can set up rain dance after switching in on sludge wave, and then go for rest the next turn to have instant recovery. From then on, it can just use scald to 2HKO gengar under rain or fish for a burn if the opponent decides to switch gengar out. Specially defensive manaphy can also check Landorus-I decently, as earth power isn't a guaranteed 2HKO after stealth rock. U-turn is a great move to grab momentum although it's potential is kind of waste since we all know each others teams, lol. Scald is just scald and is great for a reliable STAB move that can also burn, while rain dance and rest are required to consistently switch in against gengar to counter it.
 
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Bisharp is not in any way a counter because Focus Blast murders you. It can check or revenge this set consistently, but ain't countering.
I didn't say it's a counter. I just said it is easier to predict with SP this time around since the Gengar has no Sub / Wisp so the odds are stacked in Bisharp's favour.
 
I didn't say it's a counter. I just said it is easier to predict with SP this time around since the Gengar has no Sub / Wisp so the odds are stacked in Bisharp's favour.
If Bisharp is chosen, it would be for countering something else later, with beating Gengar being a point in its favor over another Nom.

The problem I find is that Bisharp can check a lot of stuff, but his speed and only okay Bulk/Typing make it hard for him to counter a lot of Pokemon.
 
I'd like to nominate Dragalge.


Dragalge @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Scald

Assault Vest (I'm sensing a pattern here) Dragalge is a good counter to Life Orb 4 attacks Gengar because it can switch in on any attack even with rocks up, tank a Shadow Ball, then fire off an Adaptability boosted Draco Meteor that is a guaranteed OHKO with the given spread. Dragalge also doesn't mind the speed drop from Icy Wind because it's already pretty damn slow. The speed EVs are enough to outrun uninvested base 50s, like Azumarill. Special attack is maximized with the rest of the EVs dumped into HP for bulk. Draco Meteor is obligatory STAB and hits super hard with max special attack and Adaptability. Sludge Wave is a secondary STAB that also enjoys the Adaptability boost and hits Fairies that are immune to Draco. Hidden Power Fire hits steels (primarily Ferrothorn) that resists Dragalge's two STABs. Scald is used in the last slot to hit Heatran and for its 30% burn chance, which can cripple/weaken some of Dragalge's switchins. I think Dragalge is a good choice as a counter for Gengar because it can also help out against Fairies that are likely to be paired with Gengar to remedy its general weakness to dark types. Also, countering Dragalge can be difficult because very few things like to switch in on its STABs or a well predicted coverage move.

Edit: Support for the Toxic Spikes set seems to be higher, so I'll withdraw my nomination and throw my support behind that. Fuck Gengar's Levitate. Also still a useful set with decent power, good bulk, and excellent utility.
 
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Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Taunt
- Defog

Mandibuzz is a nice Gengar counter (as long as it doesn't have Taunt, which is the case) as it is 3HKOed at best without SR, has reliable recovery and can 2HKO with Foul Play. About those SR, Mandibuzz's role as a dedicated anti-hazard wall is to get rid of entry hazards and preventing them from being setup again with the combination of Taunt and Defog. Taunt is also useful to prevent opposing mons to boost their stats, inflicting status and healing themselves. The given spread allows Mandibuzz to avoid being 2HKOed by Landorus, Megagross, Mega Lopunny and, like previously stated, Gengar while maximizing its health and having a SR number. It also makes Mandibuzz faster than uninvested base 80 and neutral-natured base 50. Moreover, its Overcoat ability makes Mandibuzz a nice check to mons with powder moves such as Breloom and Amoonguss (Spore), Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder).

I'd write more, but I've got a dentist appointment soon, so I'll leave it to that.
 

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Taunt
- Defog

Mandibuzz is a nice Gengar counter (as long as it doesn't have Taunt, which is the case) as it is 3HKOed at best without SR, has reliable recovery and can 2HKO with Foul Play. About those SR, Mandibuzz's role as a dedicated anti-hazard wall is to get rid of entry hazards and preventing them from being setup again with the combination of Taunt and Defog. Taunt is also useful to prevent opposing mons to boost their stats, inflicting status and healing themselves. The given spread allows Mandibuzz to avoid being 2HKOed by Landorus, Megagross, Mega Lopunny and, like previously stated, Gengar while maximizing its health and having a SR number. It also makes Mandibuzz faster than uninvested base 80 and neutral-natured base 50. Moreover, its Overcoat ability makes Mandibuzz a nice check to mons with powder moves such as Breloom and Amoonguss (Spore), Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder).

I'd write more, but I've got a dentist appointment soon, so I'll leave it to that.
Not sure about this one, as this particular gengar is running icy wind, as well as the fact that if stealth rocks are up, and you can usually assume that they are, mandibuzz can't switch in, and if it comes in on a sack or a slow voltturn, it'll be eating lots of damage, and may not be able to actually take gengar down. Its a decent check, but it's usefullness kinda depends on the situation that it's coming in on.
 
Not sure about this one, as this particular gengar is running icy wind, as well as the fact that if stealth rocks are up, and you can usually assume that they are, mandibuzz can't switch in, and if it comes in on a sack or a slow voltturn, it'll be eating lots of damage, and may not be able to actually take gengar down. Its a decent check, but it's usefullness kinda depends on the situation that it's coming in on.
Firstly, Icy Wind does less than Sludge Wave (and Focus Blast) and Mandibuzz doesn't care that much about the speed drop (not against Gengar at least). Secondly, Mandibuzz is supposed to come in on SRers and (Toxic) Spikers just before they set them so she can Defog the entry hazards away and Taunt the hazard setter (or the other way around) so they can't set them up again. Thirdly (and that's probably a terrible argument), with all the LO recoil Gengar will take, only one Foul Play might suffice to KO it (1/8 chance to KO after 3 LO recoil and 15/16 after 4 LO recoil). Mandi may not be the best choice, but I definitely think it's an option to consider.
 
Firstly, Icy Wind does less than Sludge Wave (and Focus Blast) and Mandibuzz doesn't care that much about the speed drop (not against Gengar at least). Secondly, Mandibuzz is supposed to come in on SRers and (Toxic) Spikers just before they set them so she can Defog the entry hazards away and Taunt the hazard setter (or the other way around) so they can't set them up again. Thirdly (and that's probably a terrible argument), with all the LO recoil Gengar will take, only one Foul Play might suffice to KO it (1/8 chance to KO after 3 LO recoil and 15/16 after 4 LO recoil). Mandi may not be the best choice, but I definitely think it's an option to consider.
The problem is, if you use mandibuzz, you have the same problem as my nomination. With rocks up, it cannot counter. And to come in on SRers and defog away the rocks takes prediction and might give other mon a free switchins.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I'd like to nominate Dragalge.


Dragalge @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Scald

Assault Vest (I'm sensing a pattern here) Dragalge is a good counter to Life Orb 4 attacks Gengar because it can switch in on any attack even with rocks up, tank a Shadow Ball, then fire off an Adaptability boosted Draco Meteor that is a guaranteed OHKO after a single round of Life Orb damage or rocks. Dragalge also doesn't mind the speed drop from Icy Wind because it's already pretty damn slow. The speed EVs are enough to outrun uninvested base 50s, like Azumarill. Special attack is maximized with the rest of the EVs dumped into HP for bulk. Draco Meteor is obligatory STAB and hits super hard with max special attack and Adaptability. Sludge Wave is a secondary STAB that also enjoys the Adaptability boost and hits Fairies that are immune to Draco. Hidden Power Fire hits steels (primarily Ferrothorn) that resists Dragalge's two STABs. Scald is used in the last slot to hit Heatran and for its 30% burn chance, which can cripple/weaken some of Dragalge's switchins. I think Dragalge is a good choice as a counter for Gengar because it can also help out against Fairies that are likely to be paired with Gengar to remedy its general weakness to dark types. Also, countering Dragalge can be difficult because very few things like to switch in on its STABs or a well predicted coverage move.
I'm all for nominating Dragalge, but I really dont think AV is the way to go. Toxic Spikes are an excellent utility move on Dragalge and obviously this cannot be done with AV. I'd suggest a specially defensive set along the lines of this:

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor

Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 101-120 (30.3 - 36%) -- 38.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 230-272 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
 
I'm all for nominating Dragalge, but I really dont think AV is the way to go. Toxic Spikes are an excellent utility move on Dragalge and obviously this cannot be done with AV. I'd suggest a specially defensive set along the lines of this:

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor

Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 101-120 (30.3 - 36%) -- 38.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 230-272 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
I definitely like this option as well. Really it just depends on what the team wants. AV hits harder in general because it can run special attack investment, but Tspikes is rare and a great utility move that is rapidly gaining popularity.

Also, just realized I forgot Adaptability in my original calcs for my earlier post, so Draco Meteor is a guaranteed OHKO. I'll correct it.
 
Well hold on, if we're trying to counter it, why not Chansey? It can't really touch Gengar but it wears it down with Life Orb while recovering, getting up Rocks, T-Waving, Heal Belling, so on and so on. It's basically a 100% counter and while it can't kill Gengar back, it can Paralyze it which cripples it so it's basically useless.

Of all the noms, it's probably the best we've had so far.
 
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Well hold on, if we're trying to counter it, why not Chansey? It can't really touch Gengar but it wears it down with Life Orb while recovering, getting up Rocks, T-Waving, Heal Belling, so on and so on. It's basically a 100% counter and while it can't kill Gengar back, it can Paralyze it which cripples it so it's basically useless.

Of all the noms, it's probably the best we've had so far.
Because while the blobs counter Gengar completely, they have 0 offensive presence and thus gives free turns to many physical attackers who can set-up freely on them. Also, the blobs DO NOT fit on all teams, only Stall due to their passiveness.
 
Because while the blobs counter Gengar completely, they have 0 offensive presence and thus gives free turns to many physical attackers who can set-up freely on them. Also, the blobs DO NOT fit on all teams, only Stall due to their passiveness.
I thought the aim was just to counter that Pokemon, not to do anything else. Sorry about that... but, if not, then Meloetta is IMO the best at specifically stopping Gengar, while Dragalge offers a lot to the team, getting up Toxic Spikes and hitting like a truck but without any recovery if Assault Vest or minimal recovery with Black Sludge it can be whittled down a fair bit.
 
Nominating this underdog:
Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Atk / 100 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Snorlax is a good counter to Gengar, as it is 3HKOed by Focus Blast after Rocks and OHKOes in return, while being untouched by any of its other moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 190-226 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
156+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 238-282 (91.8 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The spread was taken from AM's post in the Underdog project and specifically aims at beating Landorus-I with Ice Punch, but seeing as we're not using Ice Punch here(as the utility of Pursuit trapping Gengar is too good to miss out on), idk on whether we can better specialize the EVs or not, so if anyone comes up with a better spread I'll be happy to change it :)
 
I thought the aim was just to counter that Pokemon, not to do anything else. Sorry about that... but, if not, then Meloetta is IMO the best at specifically stopping Gengar, while Dragalge offers a lot to the team, getting up Toxic Spikes and hitting like a truck but without any recovery if Assault Vest or minimal recovery with Black Sludge it can be whittled down a fair bit.
The point is that the two teams are being built to counter-team as we go, so while Chansey counters Gengar, she herself is easy to counter while also restricting our team to a Stall playstyle, which limits what we could choose for her teammates to counter future picks.

I think TS Dragalge would make a nice choice for Team 2. Toxic Spikes are a fantastic support move, and unlike most Poison types, I don't believe Gengar absorbs them because of Levitate, so Drag spends 2 counter force-outs laying them to cripple the rest of the team, before focusing on dropping Dracos on the opponent. The bonus is that TS forces the other team to either focus on Steels, add another Poison Type (both of which have weakness stacking issues), include Hazard removal, or might even consider Cleric support. Might not seem much, but Team 2 might have a much easier time countering Magic Guard Clefable compared to Unaware, for example.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Since this is all about counterteaming I don't really like the idea of having a counter to Gengar that works because of an item, because it is so easy to pressure it with team 1's second teammate (knock off, multiple special attackers) In my opinion you don't really need a 100% counter to Gengar [even though this project is called counter that pokemon], because in the match itself there are some situations where Gengar can easily be defeated with only a check. If you have a scarftar, you can just sac something and click Pursuit. Only problem is that team 2 can pick a pokemon that can use the choice locked pursuit to set up (mega altaria for example) AV Scizor is pretty interesting because you are not choice locked after pursuit trapping. AV Scizor can be trapped by Magnezone, but this opens the same situation as the current situation about pursuit trapping: you can use the choice locked hp fire to set up, so I don't really think AV Scizor is that bad of an idea.
The reason I don't really like Meloetta is because the current build leaves it very open to physical attackers and every u-turn or pursuit user is a decent option for team 1 as a response, meaning that Gengar has no problems cleaning late game.
SpD Manaphy is also pretty good because it can keep momentum with U-Turn and because of Scald's burn chance there isn't much that really wants to switch into Manaphy (Rocky Chomp doesn't like burns) But Manaphy also gives many pokemon a free switch in and just spamming u-turn is not going to work all the time because physical offensive pokemon prevent Manaphy from using RD + Rest.
If you pick Dragalge just give it some special bulk, black sludge and toxic spikes. Toxic Spikes puts big pressure on the other team and with an AoA Gengar + hazards on team 2, team 1 is already in a bad position because it wants to spin or defog, and pokemon like Mega Sableye and Bisharp become very annoying for team 1.
 
I don't know why people are saying that using Chansey restricts a team to using stall. The team does not have to be a cohesive team at all, it just has to succeed at countering the other team. Last time this project was done, we built 2 "AIDS teams" that were bad teams overall, but were good at doing their job which was to beat the other team. Second, the fact that Chansey is easy to counter doesn't matter as much here as in standard teambuilding, since Team 1 will find a good counter for whatever Team 2 picks here. The problem I have with most of the Assault Vest picks here is that they have limited switch-ins to Gengar and Team 1 will pick a solid switch-in to whatever AV user might be picked here, so Gengar can eventually wear its own counter down which is bad for Team 1. Picking an AV user is like trying to build a house on a shaky foundation (although I like Snorlax because it Pursuit traps Gengar which makes getting worn down much less of an issue). Therefore, I think own pick needs to be either one of these two things:

1. An offensive threat faster than Gengar which can OHKO it and apply a lot of offensive pressure on Team 1 (not AV Raikou).
2. A defensive threat which can switch into Gengar repeatedly and wall it.

Nominating this underdog:
Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Atk / 100 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Snorlax is a good counter to Gengar, as it is 3HKOed by Focus Blast after Rocks and OHKOes in return, while being untouched by any of its other moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 190-226 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
156+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 238-282 (91.8 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The spread was taken from AM's post in the Underdog project and specifically aims at beating Landorus-I with Ice Punch, but seeing as we're not using Ice Punch here(as the utility of Pursuit trapping Gengar is too good to miss out on), idk on whether we can better specialize the EVs or not, so if anyone comes up with a better spread I'll be happy to change it :)
I'd go with a basic 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Def Adamant nature spread to do as much damage as possible while minimizing the damage taken from Focus Blast from Gengar. With this spread, Snorlax is guaranteed to OHKO with Pursuit on the switch or do 50 to 60% if Gengar does not switch while Gengar has to land 3 consecutive Focus Blasts to kill Snorlax.
 
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Submission period is now OVER. Voting period has now begun.

Rules are the same as last time, with one exception. I'll be without internet for several days, so Karxrida will be tallying votes and updating the thread on Monday. Please send him your votes.

Candidates:

Voting will end on April 20th.

Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 20th. See you all next week!

Oh right, before I forget, next week's nominations will be for Team 2. This way, both teams will have the chance to impact the other's decisions, rather than Team 1 dictating Team 2's picks throughout the entire project.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
When PMing me, title the votes as "[Pokemon 1] 2 Votes, [Pokemon 2] 1 Vote". It'll make it easier for me to tally.

Example:
AV Snorlax 2 Votes, AV Scizor 1 Vote
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
The winner in a landslide victory of 15 votes is SpDef Dragalge.

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor

Nominations are now open for the second slot on Team 2. Voting will begin on April 25.
 
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The winner in a landslide victory of 15 votes is SpDef Dragalge.

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor

Nominations are now open for the second slot on Team 1. Voting will begin on April 25.
You mean second slot of Team 2. It is always 1-2-2-1-1-2-2- ......2-2-1 in this project.
 
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