1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Crush and Slush

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by PureQuestion, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    When testing my previous team, I discovered that Terrakion and Azumarill have fantastic offensive synergy. Azumarill destroys Landorus, Gliscor, other Terrakion, Skarmory, Scizor (thanks in large part to resisting Bullet Punch), Gengar, and basically everyone that doesn't resist it.

    Terrakion, in turn, destroys the Tyranitar that gets in the way of Azumarill's rain (though they're both capable of that, really, Terra just does it so much better), knocks Gyarados out of the sky, Earthquakes Tentacruel into oblivion, and crushes Ninetails (which Azumarill struggles to do in the sun) and grinds Abomasnow into a fine powder, all of which lets Politoed come in and start the rain that Azumarill loves. It also helps take down dragons that have gotten out of control, and deals with Ferrothorn quite nicely.

    They have some shared weaknesses, especially Grass and Water types. Jellicent gives them both massive trouble, Breloom tanks anything they can throw at it and ruins them with each of its Stabs. The best case situation for Breloom is an Ice Punch on the switch, which with Choice Band will deal 137% - 162% of its Max HP, thus trivializing the entire matter. But that's not a great way to deal with your biggest counter.

    So at this point, I'm forced to have three Pokemon with this problem. The base of my team basically ends up as:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The politoed has a specially bulky set with Scald/Toxic/Encore/Protect. Toxic deals with Jellicent a bit and can screw up Techniloom, but won't do a thing against Poison Heal sets. This isn't horrible because the technician set threatens my offensive core way more than the poison heal sets do:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I decided to throw in Skarmory, which let me set up spikes and devour Breloom with Brave Bird, but I later switched that out for a physically defensive Toxicruel which can similarly wall Breloom (albeit without nearly as much threat, barring a Scald burn on a technician set) while allowing me to actually spin while laying hazards, and giving me an actual fighting resist.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    But what really made this team interesting was what I did with the last 2 slots:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The so called "Slush" of the team name. Snow and Rain combined. A physically offensive Abomasnow can OHKO Vaporeon and Jellicent with Woodhammer (Physically defensive Vaporeon can live but it needs to be running max defence and a positive nature to not die to hail damage afterwards). This alone almost completely justifies its place on the team. Kyurem (scarf Kyurem, specifically) and shreds though every Dragon, Grass and Flying pokemon in the Metagame, and survives a Mach Punch from Breloom as long as SR isn't up. Both of them add some fantastic defensive synergy (Abomasnow being able to tank the grass and electric attacks aimed at Politoed and Azumarill, and tanking the ground moves aimed at Terrakion, and though Kyurem can tank using the wonderful Dragon Grass/Water/Electric resists if needed, it's much preferred to keep him on stand-by for revenging if there happens to be a dangerous priority user on the other team.)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Then, I traded Starmie for Tentacruel because I found I wasn't using Toxic Spikes much and that a fast Psychic type would be much better for dealing with Breloom, while still having the ability to fill my spinning needs, as well as giving me another Special Sweeper along with my Kyurem. However, at Yeezy D's suggestion, Starmie was dropped for Azelf:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Which works as a good standard lead and possible revenge killer for dangerous fighting and poison types.

    So, in full, this is the current version of my team:

    [​IMG]

    Crusher (Terrakion) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - X-Scissor

    The same Scarf Terrakion that I was suggested to add to my last team. It really does carry a lot of great revenge abilities, and can easily sweep teams towards the end if you just pick the right move and go to town. Earthquake helps deal with Jirachi, and Poison-types not named "Gengar", who is helpless against Azumarill's Aqua Jet anyway.

    [​IMG]

    Douser (Azumarill) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Superpower
    - Waterfall
    - Ice Punch

    Basic Azumarill stuff. Ice Punch and Superpower destroy counters to Azumarill on the switch in with the proper prediction, Waterfall lets me potentially destroy Scizor easier, and Aqua Jet obliterates everything else not named "Jellicent" or "Tentacruel".

    [​IMG]

    Stormbringer (Politoed) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Encore
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    The team's basic special tank, dolling out Burns and Toxics, stalling, and taking attacks with considerable ease, even surviving a thunder (albeit taking something like 60% from it) from Rotom-W while I hit it with Toxic. Toxic also annoys the hell out of Jellicent, which is always nice, and easily cripples other weather starters, especially Ninetales which think they can use Sunny Tank to tank a Hydro Pump.

    [​IMG]

    Horus (Azelf) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Psyshock
    - Fire Blast

    A lead set. If I see a major psychic weak threat I need to deal with (Breloom, Keldeo...) I'm more likely to save it so the sash can be used when it's really needed. Beyond that, Taunt/SR makes a great lead set, Psychic is a pretty good stab off Azelf's wonderful SAtk, and Fire Blast destroys Ferrothorn, Genesect, etc.

    And finally...

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    Stephenson (Abomasnow) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SDef
    Lonely Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Wood Hammer
    - Ice Shard
    - Substitute

    Heart of Ice (Kyurem) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Earth Power


    These two almost act like a second team unto themselves. Letting me easily switch gears from a rain team to a hail team I can avoid many of the common weaknesses of both. Abomasnow and Politoed play off each other's resistances so well that it ends up being a pretty effective strategy. Scarf Kyurem can let loose insanely powerful blizzards, destroy the Grass and Dragon pokemon that resist water, and the Flying pokemon that resist fighting, giving it great offensive synergy with Azumarill and Terrakion.


    So there you have it. A team that runs Politoed and Abomasnow in tandem, and works. I've only been running it a short time, but so far my recorded game records show 7 wins to 3 losses. Unfortunately there've been enough server issues to cause most of the games to be unrecorded, but it's been showing a lot of promise so far.

    Current Glicko2 Rating: 1761 ± 84 (provisional)

    (Jesus that was a lot more writing than the last team.)
  2. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    Hi! Please fix your sprites since half of them are broken and make your RMT look ugly. Thanks!

    Now, on topic: I love original teams, and this in particular since you use Azumarill, which is really underrated IMHO and packs a huge punch with "triple STAB" water attacks. However, there's still something you can do to improve your team. The main problem you have is that, without any set-up sweepers or flexible attackers, your whote team can be easily walled by some defensive cores commonly found out there. For example, Jellicent is immune to 3 out of 4 moves that Azumarill carries, doesn't care about Kyurem, can Taunt Politoed to uselessness and Starmie is not sure to be able to kill it, since Specially Defensive variants aren't even 2HKO'd by Thunder. Couple this with something that can take Terrakion and Abomasnow's attacks easily (Reuniclus? Skarmory?) and you have a defensive core that completely shuts down your team. This is obviously unacceptable and we must fix this in some way. Another big problem is lack of Stealth Rock, which helps you wearing down enemy walls and helps removing some threatening things like Volcarona or Gyarados. And even the lack of a Steel type is not a good thing, since things like Specs Latios will just spam Draco Meteor to vaporize most of your team members.

    So, in my opinion, the problem is that you're trying to do too much things while being starved for team slots. You have two scarfers, a bander, and two weather inducers that don't have a various movepool to allow you to cover all of the functions you should do. My suggestion is to remove the "Hail" part of the team completely, and use that to fix the weaknesses I listed above. Abomasnow was useful to you for Jellicent and Vaporeon, if I'm not mistaken, and for its defensive synergy; I suggest using a Tinkerbell Celebi instead. Celebi OHKOs both of them with LO Leaf Storm, and can spread paralysis via Thunder Wave, which is invaluable to facilitate Azumarill's sweep. It also retains useful resistances to Electric, Fighting, Ground, Grass that can hit your Water types or Terrakion. Also, unlike Abomasnow, Celebi has reliable recovery, which grants more durability (which is quite important since you only have Starmie as other Fighting absorber). It also provides a Scald and Status absorber, a thing that your team would miss otherwise, and can take down Breloom that would be highly annoying with your current line-up.

    Celebi (open)
    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Life Orb | Natural Cure
    Modest | 232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Psychic / Earth Power / HP Ice
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover


    Ok, after this addition we look a bit less weak to Jellicent and Fighting moves, but Dragons are still scary and we lack SR. Specially Defensive Jirachi can do the trick, coupled with a change from SpD Politoed to Physically Defensive Politoed (let's face it, Specially Defensive Toed may be nice, but incurs in some bad problems like taking 70% min from CBTar's Pursuit or ~45% from +1 Genesect uninvested U-Turn...). Jirachi can set up SR, can spread paralysis again to help Azumarill (even to those pesky Volt Absorbers that could be dangerous otherwise), can flinch to death dangerous things like CM Reuniclus, and more importantly can take Draco Meteors for ages without problems. It even carries Wish, to provide reliable recovery to everyone in your team, which is quite nice to win weather wars and to be able to spin away hazards for longer times. This may compound somewhat a weakness to Ground, but both Celebi and Politoed should be able to deal with them, especially with intelligent use of Wish.
    Your Politoed could also use a slight variation of its moveset. While Encore is great, I prefer Perish Song to get rid of all those Baton Passers, set-up sweepers and Sub users. You could also try to run Refresh, to be able to Toxic things like Jellicent or non-Hydration Vaporeon while taking their status, and just heal it back afterwards.

    Jirachi and Politoed (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers | Serene Grace
    Careful | 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
    - Wish
    - Stealth Rock

    [​IMG]
    Politoed @ Leftovers | Drizzle
    Bold | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    - Scald
    - Perish Song
    - Toxic
    - Protect / Refresh


    Hope my rate helped. Good Luck.
  3. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    (The sprites aren't broken on my end so I dunno what's going on maybe some sort of server issues?)

    My concern with the removal of the hail portion is that while Jirachi gives a nice resistance to Dragon attacks, it removes my two best candidates for killing them quickly. Abomasnow's ice shard and Blizzard from a scarfed Kyurem are fantastic at killing most dragons before they can do any serious damage.

    Hail also brings some other nice bonuses like shutting down Croagunk and Tentacruel's healing completely, and annoying poison heal gliscor (which is going to get wrecked by Ice Shard regardless but I digress.)

    I am going to try the Pixies out, to see whether it ultimately brings more than it takes away though I'll note that it's a fundamentally different team, though possibly also a better team.

    Thanks for the comments.
  4. Yeezy D

    Yeezy D

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Ganj4lF, the sprites look in full working order at my end as well, so you may have some connection issues.

    Something I noticed off the bat is your lack of Stealth Rocks, the confliction between types and as aforementioned, your weakness to Jellicent. An Azelf variant I've been abusing lately that shuts down dedicated leads and can set up rocks with ease goes a little like this:

    Azelf @Focus Sash
    Trait: Levitate
    Timid Nature
    252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Psychic
    - Taunt

    The advantages of Azelf > Starmie:
    - Sets up the Rocks you desperately need.
    - Counters Genesect at 100%
    - Taunts the Jellicent you don't like
    - Fastest OU-accessible Taunt user
    - Access to 4x against Scizor, Gene and Abomasnow
    - Access to STAB-boosted base 90 Psychic, countering 'Rakkion, Tenta, various Ghost-types
    - Counters Venusaur
    - Sun-boosted Fire Blast, not weakened under Sun
    - Prevents hazards being set up
  5. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    That sounds like a much more interesting preposition. Starmie hasn't been achieving a whole lot for me. The speed just isn't enough to make up for the ridiculous frailty on its own. A taunt lead sounds very nice, as does access to a powerful fire attack, as I've certainly been missing the Volcarona on my other team and the sheer nightmare it is to Genesects, Scizors, and Ferrothorns everywhere, though Azelf is less likely to hold up against the first two, at least without the sash (and Genesects not running scarves).

    This definitely sounds like a great addition to the team, gonna have to try that out...
  6. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    Hmm, I came back a couple of hours after giving the rate and the sprites are ok. Guess it was a problem of mine...

    Yeah as always I'm a bit sorry to suggest changes that radically alter the structure of a team. I'm probably not the best rater if you do want to preserve the Hail part of the team, since I don't like playing and building Hail, so...feel free to disregard my comment if you want to go that rounte. I hope that my post was somewhat useful anyway at least to outline the weaknesses of your team.

    Good luck again ;)
  7. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    I don't think Hail in general works very well but I think the problem is in large part that it's impossible to make a hail team without running into serious problems with your entire team getting wrecked by fighting/fire/rock moves, not to mention Scizor's bullet punch. But the moment you throw in rain, suddenly fire is helpless, you have steel resistances, and you have SE against rock. Now you just have fighting and chances are you're going to have plenty of neutrality (Politoed/Azumarill here, and Skarmory before) and maybe even resistances to that (Starmie, Tentacruel, Azelf). Add in that Abomasnow resists Politoed's weaknesses in addition to the Ground attacks that wreck Terrakion, and have you some fantastic defensive options. Kyurem has handy resistances to Grass/Water/Electric as well, in addition to being the only OU dragon neutral to Ice attacks.

    As an aside, there's the wonderful fact that TTar and Ninetales both walk all over Abomasnow, Politoed walks over them, and Abomasnow has the type advantage over Politoed. It's like playing Rock/Paper/Scissors and then throwing both paper and scissors. You always win unless they're running scissors (which I guess is Hail, in this case). But then you just break the scissors with Terrakion and win anyway.

    Also, as another plus for Azelf: it stomps all over Breloom, too, which otherwise gives the rest of the team serious trouble. Then again I guess Starmie still had psychic stab for that anyway.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)