Do we really need the Uber tier (Question for Standard)??

[Acritter]

I really don't see the point of this. The main problem is that such Pokemon as Kyogre are significantly more powerful than, say, Latias or Manaphy, meaning that in order to have a balanced metagame (which is apparently not a concern to you) some Pokemon must be banned from this new Standard. This would either give an insanely small new Ubers tier or result in almost every Pokemon from classic Ubers being rebanned if their individual levels of power are too widespread to hit a "balanced" tier of Pokemon with around equal levels of power, like the top of our current OU. Now, let's consider what the new UU would look like, should this be undertaken and all the Ubers avoid being banned. We would have an OU tier of about 30 Pokemon, as you said, but all of them would be utility Pokemon such as Blissey, Scizor, and so on, with a couple of interesting Swift Swimmers and Chlorophyll users. Because of the definition of OU, that would mean Blissey, Scizor, etc. would be banned from UU play. This leaves significantly reduced Special walling and revenge killing opportunities in UU, making many sweepers much more powerful, and quite possibly BL. Suddenly, we have a rapidly growing BL tier of Pokemon unusable in OU (because they are sweepers that can't match the high OUs) and overpowered in UU. I won't even begin to conjecture what will happen to a Chanseyless NU (Happiny? I hope not). This makes for a huge spread of Pokemon that are literally unusable, and does much worse to the metagames than losing 23 fucking Pokemon from OU and one from NU.

The point of Ubers is to be the banlist of OU and the "broken" tier. It's a very interesting tier, but has about as much place as the "standard" metagame as NU does. If you want more people to play Ubers, then set up some events. Don't try to break the entire competitive Pokemon scene just so that you can play against someone the second you hit that "find match" button on Shoddy.

 

[shrang]

This isn't about getting more people to play Ubers at all. The point I'm getting is that why must Ubers be banned?? Why can't we just make the Standard tier one which anything is allowed?? While it might be "overcentralised" and "broken", if you will, it does not mean we cannot have a competitive metagame where it probably might not be any less fun than the current OU we have now.

 

[Acritter]

"Overcentralized" and "broken" translates to "not fun" for most players, as proven by the general lack of players in the Ubers tier as opposed to, say, the UU tier. And I would advise you consider your first statement a bit more deeply. Every post you have made to support your initial conjecture has been saying why YOU enjoy Ubers play, and why by extension everyone else should as well. And, as one final point, UBERS ARE NOT BANNED. THERE IS A TIER THAT THEY CAN BE PLAYED WITH IN. If you want to play with Ubers, GO TO THE UBERS TIER. There is no reason for you to break the metagame (by the way, I'd like you to respond to that aspect of my post) to play Ubers. Whichever way you cut it, this is either to make you feel better by not naming Ubers "broken" and "banned" (both of which they are) or to get more people into the Ubers tier so you have more people to play with in your favorite metagame.

 

[Efemera]

This isn't about getting more people to play Ubers at all. The point I'm getting is that why must Ubers be banned?? Why can't we just make the Standard tier one which anything is allowed?? While it might be "overcentralised" and "broken", if you will, it does not mean we cannot have a competitive metagame where it probably might not be any less fun than the current OU we have now.

As already stated, the usage statistics would like to have a word with you. Nobody plays Ubers because most people don't like playing Ubers. So yeah, I think it would be a lot less fun than the OU we have now.

 

[ultimatellama]

The problem is that we're trying to implement an arbitrary tiering system to 'balance' a game which wasn't created with balance in mind.

As soon as we define what can be allowed where, people will experiment and eventually come up with 'the best' sets. This means that very quickly in every metagame, you start to see certain pokemon rising to predominance. (Scizor, Blissey, I'm looking at you >_>)

The thing that I find funny is that if there was no tiering/banning system at all, and people were free to play any and all pokemon with any and all legal moves, of COURSE people would be using the more powerful pokemon that we've banned to the Ubers, and we'd see a lot less use from the pokemon which aren't quite on par with them.

The problem then is that the top 10 or 20 pokemon in ANY metagame become the pillar around which the metagame functions. They set the standard for teams and will appear on most of them.

Banning them or handicapping their movesets doesn't change this phenomena. It just means that the 'next rung down' become the new elites and centralise the metagame. Sure, the metagame changes dramatically, but it doesn't fix the problem, just replaces old pokemon which were the most powerful in the metagame with new ones.

As we look further down the ladder of power scaling, we see that the power differences become smaller and smaller, until down in the UU tier we've created, we see a much MORE balanced metagame, owing simply to the fact that the pokemon in it are largely of comparable ability. You still have the metagame centralisation factor, but it is greatly reduced because the pool of 'top' pokemon is that much wider, spreading from 10 to 20 that see frequent use, to 30 or 40 that see frequent use. This lends itself to a more diverse metagame and greater potential for balance.

It is STILL imperfect, however. Obviously we can never HAVE a perfect system since a caterpie is never going to be able to compete with TTar or Scizor. Just not gonna happen. I think in terms of finding the most diverse 'top' set of pokemon (which is all a tiering system can really do) Banning everything OU and up is the way forwards.

smart guy, whoever said that. Obviously, I don't actually reccomend banning everything OU and up, I'm just pointing out that because of the way the game was designed, we'll always have balancing issues. I actually agree that the existence of an 'Ubers' tier is silly, because as we're seeing now with Garchomp and Latias and Mence, it doesn't fix anything, since we'll just keep sending stuff there.

 

[Acritter]

smart guy, whoever said that.

That argument is mostly decent, but has a few major flaws. First of all, it assumes having more viable Pokemon is always better. It isn't. Up to a certain point, it makes the metagame much more interesting and variable, but after that it turns it into a crapshoot of "can I counter that sweeper?" Sure, the metagame is theoretically balanced, but about as fun as rock-paper-scissors. And, worst of all, you assume that OU isn't already banned. Seriously, most people don't have a clue about how a tiering system works.

Goddammit, why do you have to edit your post. Still, if the Suspect testers are a reasonable metric, the metagame seems to be improving without Salamence.

 

[un?lucky]

I like the idea of using a wider range of pokemon but the way I think we should go about it is like the way UU was constructed. We could merge both OU and Ubers together then ban things that continue to still be broken, possibly like wobbuffet. Our notion of what would be over powered and what is acceptable would most likely be tottally unexpected just like UU was. Who would have thought the previous BL pinsir would turn out to be NU once they ban list was gone, the same might go for pokemon such as manaphy, who might seem way to overpowered now, but might be manageable once everyone has gained experienced using him with all the pokemon available.

 

[cantab]

When you play Ubers, you are playing "anything goes".

A nitpick that does not affect your main point, but that's untrue. Ubers is not Unrestricted. Ubers has no banned Pokemon but it still has other clauses.

 

[Acritter]

I like the idea of using a wider range of pokemon but the way I think we should go about it is like the way UU was constructed. We could merge both OU and Ubers together then ban things that continue to still be broken, possibly like wobbuffet. Our notion of what would be over powered and what is acceptable would most likely be tottally unexpected just like UU was. Who would have thought the previous BL pinsir would turn out to be NU once they ban list was gone, the same might go for pokemon such as manaphy, who might seem way to overpowered now, but might be manageable once everyone has gained experienced using him with all the pokemon available.

The thing is, that damages the metagame quite badly in the short-term. I would certainly advocate making all the low-BST Ubers OU during the BW switch, as everything would be messed up anyways, but not until then. People generally like stability.

I'd say there's no doubt about such beasts as Kyogre being broken, though.

@Cantab: I'd say most of those clauses are a general assumption for competitive Pokemon. You're right in that Ubers isn't completely no-holds-barred (REAL MEN HACK THEIR OPPONENTS' COMPUTERS), but is if you take all those little details as givens.

 

[Despotar]

I know what your saying, but I disagree. Yes, this would be easier to maintain, but,
No one would use things like Heracross, Aerodactyl, Or Dragonite. All this would become useless. That's a big problem.

 

[Alan]

That isn't true. The entire uber tier is broken. When you play Ubers, you are playing "anything goes". Just because Wobbuffet is allowed in Ubers doesn't make it counter-able. That is why Ubers are banned and we play standard.

please play ubers before you discuss the uber tier. Wobb is pretty easy to counter in ubers, but still a threat.

as for the actual OP. I don't see how this could ever be a good idea. There is NO way that Mewtwo would have any competition for sweeping. Base 130 speed, and base 154 Sp.Atk would allow him to OHKO just about everything not named Blissey in OU. He is simply too strong. Giratina (normal and origin forme) would put spin blockers like Rotom-A and Gengar to shame with its massive stats, both defensively and offensively.

Ubers is there so that OU doesn't have broken mons in it. Despite how fun it may be to set up 1 CM and sweep with Mewtwo, it would arguably drive more people away because its just like when Dual Screen Deoxys-S + Gligar + Metagross combo existed back in the day. Whoever won the speed tie first won the match, and its not that cool to win/lose because of a speed tie.

 

[kokoloko]

No. Just no.

If we do this, shit like Blissey, Tyranitar and Skarmory would get stuck in the Uber (your OU) tier and the actual OU (your UU) would lose a fuckload of pokemon who perform better there.

You're basically asking to ban everything that is viable in Ubers from OU and change the name to justify it. Basically, this is a retarded idea.

 

[yond]

If you make ubers the standard tier that would mean that the same 25-30 pokemon would be used. Basically it would be an over centralized metagame which is not what is under the considered "desirable metagame"

 

[Destiny Warrior]

There is one compromise possible. We have a certain empty tier known as Limbo. If we were to actually make use of it for the likes of Latias and Manaphy, with usage determining in Ubers determining if they are Ubers or Limbo, we could easily reach part of the goal.

The problem with having a Ubers tier titled OU is the fact that people, on seeing the name change, are likely to avoid it, since they realize its the Ubers slugfest all over again(don't get me wrong, I have played Ubers, this is merely me trying to be objective). The new generation of competitive battlers, at least the competent ones, are likely to look up some of the odler metagame trends, so as to gain some knowledge on the metagame. When they see this name change, they are likely to just go to what OU was renamed to. Maybe the ones wanting to play Ubers will stay, but still, this will not garner too much support, since it does not seem very good from an outsider's point of view.

Just my opinion.

 

[Aqueos]

Look face it, your renaming ubers as the standard tier to increase its popularity. Essentially, in your last post you say ubers is fun, lets rename it and then everyone will play it. Ubers can be fun, but it is very imbalanced, as things like QUAGSIRE are used for the sake of countering one pokemon KYOGRE. Its unstable not many people like it, and renaming won't change that. Beginning and end of story. Why you want to have a slugfest on a thread I don't know. Everyone would ignore the renaming. If you like ubers play ubers and don't bug us about it. You're using south Africa as an example. You want Ubers to be "accepted" and what the majority of people play. If you want ubers to gain popularity, your energy might be better spent hosting a tourney or something, not posting on your own thread where everyone says "this idea is stupid" I hate to be blunt, but every single post above mine pretty much says either this will do nothing or this is stupid or I could care less. @mass that's kinda what we did.....

 

[cantab]

please play ubers before you discuss the uber tier. Wobb is pretty easy to counter in ubers, but still a threat.

By the usual definition of the term "counter", Wobbuffet is uncounterable. That doesn't mean Wobb can't be dealt with in other ways, but you can't switch in a counter (since you can't switch in anything, unless you by chance get Wobb vs Wobb).

 

[Aqueos]

That's kinda the problem with most ubers. Something not named choiced ------ cannot really be countered. (choiced kyogre comes to mind ludicolo, mantine, quagsire, toxicroak,parasect, you get it)

 

[Bamce]

"Oh my God you're an idiot"

Basically everything that is not already uber would become uu. Which would then push out the stuff that is already uu to nu. Which puts us right back where we started.

 

[General_Norris]

@General Norris
What do mean "A slower Format", OU can be very fast paced depending on the teams being used.

It's fast paced but it's slower than Ubers. Stall (Control) can stall better and offensive (Aggro) can sweep earlier in Ubers, so it's faster.

And in regards to the whole "No-one plays Ubers because uders a Broken argument", stop and think for a moment.
For a pokemon to be considered broken it is generally regarded as being too overpowered for OU or the standard metagame. However this is no reason to not play ubers since (at face value) their is no pokemon broken in Ubers (except for Arceus) therefore your excuse that no-one plays ubers de to them being broken has no value whatsoever since they are only broken outside of ubers.

The format itself is broken because it has lots of broken pokémon in it. And even in a high-powered enviroment some tactics are broken. If you make a mistake or have bad luck in a slower metagame you can recover, if the same happens in Uber you lose and you can't solve it. It's less enjoyable for most of the players.

Players like interaction and a fast-paced enviroment is harmful because you are barely interacting if you win fast or all the interaction you do boils down to a single action.

Team Fortress 2 lacks grenades because they provided no interaction with the opponent. Magic saw it's countermagic nerfed because they didn't provide interaction with other players. Less interaction = Less fun. That's the reason why very few people like Ubers even if they don't notice.

As someone said before, only 3% of players play Ubers. It's just that, it's not as fun to many.

 

[Golden Aether]

To me, OU is basically Poke Cup(but without 50-55 stuff), and Ubers Prime Cup. It is reasonable to have ubers banned anyway, seeing how Game Freak has their own ban list in the Battle Tower, so it is quite obvious that ubers belong in their own separate tier.

 

[Jackos]

One more thing I forgot to say in this matter is that by doing that you completely discourage the Wi-fi community from following smogon's standards (Yeah I can SR, RNG or whatever only one Kyogre/Groudon/Palkia/Dialga/etc per game, yeah very cool...) and instead the only users left would be the shoody ones, now, I know they are more than the Wi-fi ones but there's even this sub-forum dedicated to it full of trade threads and such that mostly follow smogon's tiering decissions.
All in all at most you get a new metagame that people playing shoody COULD like and a very angry Wi-fi community or, at worst, a new metagame that few people likes and the same upset Wi-fi community.
I just don't see a reason to do this, you only cause a name change in Ubers and a probably harmful change on OU (or "new UU").

 

[lati0s]

I think that OU should be the balanced metagame with the fewest pokemon banned, This would probably result in a metagame that resembles the current ubers tier more than it resembles the current OU tier.

To people who are saying that ubers is a broken metagame, no it is not. Ubers is a metagame with a large number of viable team strategies and no overwhelming forces, every pokemon can be dealt with. I think many people don't like ubers because it can be hard for beginners so the quit before the ever get a fell for the metagame.

 

[Spenstar]

But I would very much welcome an Ubers name change.

The "Unlimited" or the "Free" or the "No Bans" environment sounds better.

 

[Squirrel.]

Theres really no point to making uber the standard metagame, Its not like ubers is a broken tier, it kinda fits banning all those pokemon from OU in itself makes a brand new tier, ubers, and those pokemon work together to make its own metagame.

 

[Aqueos]

If you think uber makes it sound like banned we could call it op overpowered or nr no restrictions. Makes it sound more.... normal. Don't forget if something is viable in Uber you can still use it.