Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)

[MetaNite]

References:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/moltres
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/146.shtml
March Shoddy Statistics

Background Info:
In the month of March Moltres was used in 1.1% of all battles in OU! Let's raise that up a bit.

Most Moltres were Modest with the most common attack being... Air Slash!? Although being a STAB attack it has terrible coverage, being resisted still by Rock and not gaining much neutral coverage either. Only 23% were running Toxic, that saddens me. =(

Toxic stalling is one of Moltres' niches which I'll discuss soon.

As you can see, Moltres has a rather unique typing like its brethren legendary flyers, shared only by Charizard and Ho-oh. This gives it some notable resistances but many weaknesses, especially that one to Rock. What goes through your head when you are reminded of good old Moltres in OU?

-Stealth Rock shits in his face!
-lol, no. Only in UU
-Cool but bad

I'm going to share with you what should go through your mind when you think of the flame Pokemon.

1. The BEST Toxic staller in the game, beside possibly Ho-oh but that's Ubers and it usually has something better to do. This in addition to being one of the best stall Pokemon there is.
2. The BEST counter to Scizor you can have besides Ho-oh, again.

This is if Stealth Rock is off the field. Not as hard as you might think.

Now, the first thing that will probably go through your mind when using Moltres is getting past that terrible Stealth Rock weakness. Being 4x weak, a Rapid Spinner would definately be helpful. Otherwise Moltres will have trouble performing its jobs. For some reason, using a spinner is generally regarded as a poor idea in the OU metagame. That just makes using one all the better! You will find trouble seeking out a spinner that does no share a weakness with Moltres, in fact, the only one you should consider who doesn't share a weakness is Forretress. They make a pretty pair. Be sure to give it Payback to deal with Rotom-A! Donphan is another good choice since it resists Rock and is immune to Electric attacks which plague Moltres. It can also use a Choice Band with Assurance or Earthquake to clear the way of Rotoms and Dusknoir. Starmie and Tentacruel resist Water but share a weakness to Electric. However, both of these Pokemon tend to counter similiar Pokemon Moltres would, such as Infernape and Heatran. Another way to stop Stealth Rock is to simply prevent your foe from setting it up. Faster Taunt leads work decently at this, although most of them are part Flying, thus share weaknesses with Moltres. A Choice Scarf Breloom however can easily Spore a lead to prevent it from setting up and that is usually their only Pokemon that knows the move. Well, now that you've got rid of Stealth Rock, you can put Moltres to the test.

1. The best Toxic staller

Moltres @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 Spe
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Roost
- Flamethrower


What makes Moltres the best Toxic staller when Stealth Rock is off the field?
- Good speed, unlike Blissey and Porygon2, allows it to set up a fast Subsitute. 184 Speed makes you faster than Adamant Gyarados and Milotic, who you can possibly stall out if it has been posioned previously. You can also switch in on Mamoswine as long as they don't use Stone Edge and beat it with Flamethrower.

- Reliable recovery in Roost. This is very important. Roost buys you an Ice resist, in addition to making you neutral to Electric attacks. Obviously, it allows you to keep Toxic stalling and even recover off Stealth Rock damage.

- STAB Flamethrower lets you beat Steel-types immune to Toxic. Even though Zapdos now has Heat Wave, it has to choose between STAB or a Fire attack. Even then, Heat Wave can't get past CM Jirachi or Bronzong very easily. Along with Toxic, only Heatran, Tentacruel and Qwilfish resist your moves. Forget Qwilfish, Heatran can easily be stalled out. You only have to worry about Taunt Tran and Explosion. Tentacruel will usually stop your rampage but it isn't all that common or difficult to kill.

- The Pressure is on! The usually useless ability Pressure allows you to stall out almost any Pokemon. In comes CB Tyranitar to Stone Edge you. After 4 turns of using it, it will be forced to Struggle. Although you can't use Subsitute four times (or die to sandstorm), it is quite likely it will miss at least once. Then you are free to use Toxic and stall it out.

I've come back from 4-0 to 0-1 with just Moltres. Stall teams without a bulky Water-type that knows Rest dread this guy. The only Pokemon that can't be stalled out is Starmie because it is faster and has Natural Cure.


2. The best Scizor counter

Moltres @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
- Flamethrower
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Hidden Power Grass / Ground


What makes Moltres the best Scizor counter around when Stealth Rock is absent?
- A STAB super effective attack for one thing. This lets him perform the role of counter by posing not just a great threat, but a death sentence to any Scizor adamant enough.

- Lots of defense. Moltres possesses more defense than Rotom-A or Zapdos (by 5 base stat points). Let us compare to the defenses of these two "great Scizor counters".

Stat order: HP / X / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe
Rotom-A: 304 / X / 344 / 246 / 250 / 218 Spe
Zapdos: 384 / X / 287 / 286 / 216 / 244
Moltres: 383 / X / 306 / 288 / 206 / 216

Rotom's superior defenses are undermined by its very poor Hit Points. Zapdos only really has a higher speed stat, but against a slower Pokemon like Scizor, it doesn't really matter.

- His cool typing. Moltres is x4 resisted to U-turn which allows it to switch in repeatedly where Rotom-A and Zapdos would slowly be worn out. Other counters such as Heatran and Magnezone fear a Fighting move which Moltres resists. Both Rotom-A and Zapdos, aswell as even Heatran and Magnezone (Scizor 'checks') fear Heatran however Moltres welcomes its appearance.

This Moltres also has some unique things that make it a good counter to many other Pokemon. For instance, it doesn't have to worry about an Ice Punch or Crunch from Lucario. Since only 11.5% of them run Stone Edge, you can often times switch in with impunity. Since you are not weak to Ice, you can also switch in on Mixape where his strongest attack is Fire Blast which usually does 41% at maximum to Moltres even without any SpD EVs.

The only users of STAB Stone Edge in OU are Tyranitar and the uncommon Rhyperior. If you can hit them on the switch with Will-O-Wisp, you can often times stall them out of PP without using Substitute but just Roost. People really underestimate Will-O-Wisp. They freely switch in their Gyarados only to get burned, then managing under 50% with a LO Waterfall. Your choice of Hidden Power 2HKOes Swampert and Rhyperior or Heatran and Infernape, whichever you have more trouble against.

Conclusion:
Moltres is a niche Pokmeon. Next time you're racking your brain to find a counter to Scizor, Heatran, Lucario AND Infernape why not take a gandar at Moltres. Just remember to get rid of Stealth Rock. Thanks for reading!

 

[Objection]

I use Moltres too. In fact, I can tell you now that if you decide to go a little more on the offence with Moltres and give it HP Grass and Expert Belt, it will OHKO a 252/0 Swampert, who would normally not switch out of Moltres because it is weak to one of his STAB moves.

Air Slash is also an option to OHKO Infernape and do a number to other fighting types like Machamp and Breloom. It also couples nicely with HP Grass as, even without HP Ground, Moltres still beats Heatran 1-on-1 (Flash Fire boosted Fire Blast does 50%, which Moltres roosts off unless he switched in when SR was still up).

Now I can guess that people are going to come in and say that the SR weakness is a problem because with Rotom running amok, Rapid Spin is difficult to pull off. So, use a rapid sinner that can deal with Rotom. Starmie can do this with Hydro Pump if he can nab Rotom on the switch-in.

 

[MapleSandwich]

I've used Moltres on every one of my teams, OU and UU, since the beginning of the most recent Smogon Tour. I personally prefer a Moltres that runs more speed in OU, to be able to outspeed and Pressure stall certain threats:
Blaze of Glory
Moltres @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Spe/ 40 SpAtk
- Substitute
- Toxic/HP Ground/HP Grass
- Roost
- Flamethrower

Anyone who's battled me in OU (which is rather rare, actually) knows just how devastatingly effective this thing is. Unless the opponent is holding a Water or...yeah, basically only a Water attack, I'm almost guaranteed to beat them. I typically switch in ON an obvious SR setup, since almost nothing bringing up SR can OHKO or threaten Moltres otherwise. Even Swampert and Gyarados can lose to this beast. Depending on whether or not I know for a fact that Swampert will be present, I might run HP Grass over Toxic, although I personally prefer to run that over with a HP Grass from Modest LO Zapdos. Heatran can easily be handled by one of my other team members, namely Mirror Coat Swampert (or Scarf Flygon).

With the proper support, Moltres can easily be the new stall beast to beat in OU. I use a more offensive form for UU (which most people also hate), but I don't know if we're talking about UU Moltres in this thread...

 

[Xaqwais]

I think the problem is the fact that generally the Moltres's I face are somewhat offensive. The problem with that is that I play OU. Throw a special wall at it and finish off it's remaining 50% HP. Albeit some run toxic, but that can be dealt with.

I'm really interested in looking at these more stall-style sets. Looks really interesting.

 

[supermarth64]

@ MapleSandwich: You're missing 10 EVs in HP.

Meanwhile, I'm using my Moltres as a lead, and it's a beast (when it feels like it).

Moltres @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 32 HP/224 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- U-turn

Specsed Overheat OHKOs even Occa Berry Metagross (though I haven't found one in like 10 matches). Air Slash is for STAB, HP Fighting is for coverage, and U-turn is there just because.

I forget why I have different EVs as in the analysis though.

 

[Truthi]

It's probably not recommended in saying something kinda preplat which I'm about to say, but whatever.

I used SubToxic Tres back on the Chomp suspect ladder, and a little bit after he was banned, and I was very VERY surprised at what it could do. At first I was hesitant on having a team support a 50% SR weak BL pokemon. It really made a good pokemon. First off even with SR up, his rock solid resistances make him very easy to switch in and do something. And if you give the needed rapid spin support, once you switch in on a Tres with a sub it's very annoying to take down.

And it's defenses are truly notable, I had two players confess tha they underestimated him when they attempted to sweep with a +2 Luke, and some other guy which failed to get him in any OHKO range at all. And a lot of initial switch ins are effed to. Tyranitar, you can safely Toxic behind a sub. And you'll have to switch out eventually, but who won in the end? The Ttar who had poison take a massive toll on its HP, or the moltres who only took damage from subs, and is able to easily switch back in later in the match and roost it off.

Normally I'm not into (old)BL guys either unless they really fill in a niche on my team, but this was one of the few that really impressed me at the time and I heavily encourage people to try it out.

EDIT: Also like the TC mentioned about the 1-4 turning into a win later on. I was in the exact same scenario in battles too, and really this guy is a bitch to take down.

 

[chenman333]

I've used Moltres on every one of my teams, OU and UU, since the beginning of the most recent Smogon Tour. I personally prefer a Moltres that runs more speed in OU, to be able to outspeed and Pressure stall certain threats:
Blaze of Glory
Moltres @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Spe/ 40 SpAtk
- Substitute
- Toxic/HP Ground/HP Grass
- Roost
- Flamethrower

Anyone who's battled me in OU (which is rather rare, actually) knows just how devastatingly effective this thing is. Unless the opponent is holding a Water or...yeah, basically only a Water attack, I'm almost guaranteed to beat them. I typically switch in ON an obvious SR setup, since almost nothing bringing up SR can OHKO or threaten Moltres otherwise. Even Swampert and Gyarados can lose to this beast. Depending on whether or not I know for a fact that Swampert will be present, I might run HP Grass over Toxic, although I personally prefer to run that over with a HP Grass from Modest LO Zapdos. Heatran can easily be handled by one of my other team members, namely Mirror Coat Swampert (or Scarf Flygon).

With the proper support, Moltres can easily be the new stall beast to beat in OU. I use a more offensive form for UU (which most people also hate), but I don't know if we're talking about UU Moltres in this thread...

You might as well just max the speed EVs, since then you can tie with Adamant Lucario and beat +Speed (basically all) non scarfed Heatran.

Moltres still ain't that quick, as it can't hit the very common 280 Spd tier without a +speed nature. Slower+bulkier is the way to go IMO.

 

[Luxormaniac]

Stall Tres is an extremely interesting idea. I've used Sub+Toxic Heatran in the past, also abusing the marvelous Fire+Toxic coverage. To me, the biggest differences between the two are:

1. Roost. Moltres can truly stall with Toxic, while Heatran basically scouts with Subs, gets off a Toxic, and runs, getting 2-3 turns of Toxic damage, while Moltres can easily do 4-5.
2. Pressure. Flash Fire may net Heatran a free switch-in or two, but being able to PP stall out your greatest enemy (Stone Edge) has a lot going for it.
3. Typing. Heatran arguably has the better defensive typing, with a total of 12 resists/immunities, while Moltres has has a lackluster 6. Also, Moltres has that ugly SR weakness to worry about. However, Moltres' resists/immunities include several notable ones, including the ever-present Earthquakes and all of Scizor's typical arsenal, barring Quick Attack and Pursuit which will do pitifully anyway.

It's often said that when two Pokemon fill similar roles, it's best to capitalize on differences. StallTres should abuse Roost and Pressure to the fullest, using team synergy wisely and possibly opening up for Rock weak Pokemon by PP-stalling out Stone Edge- Salamence, anyone?

Great idea, bringing this idea up.

 

[Gmax]

Yeah, I'd use this a lot. I enjoy the idea of Pressure stalling, and Moltres is perfectly suited for it. I don't like the idea of losing 50% to Rocks though, and against a fast offensive team, the turn that I'd end up wasting to get rid of Rocks could prove fatal. That's not a risk I really want to take, so yeah, Moltres is only good for being a Scarfed starter as far as I'm concerned. It's not dependable as a staller in an environment where it loses 50% of its health every time it's called on to do its job. Healing off the damage with Roost doesn't really help always either, considering that Roost can also serves as a free turn for the opponent to take advantage of if he so wishes. It's really just a risky proposition.

 

[darkseeker4]

skarmory probably does the same set w/bravebird/drill peak better.
none the less,i shall try it out.

 

[blasphemy1]

Moltres is a helluvah pokemon, and a general nuisance for most teams. With the right support(Foresight + Rapid Spin Hitmontop), he can check Lucario, Scizor, and Heatran. Hitmontop + Moltres is fantastic, as rock attacks can be directed at Hitmontop(often choiced), who can proceed to Foresight the incoming ghost and spin away. It is quite difficult to stop this combo without two ghosts to switch in/out of Foresight.

@ darkseeker4: Fire + Poison hits everything except Heatran, who Moltres beats one on one, for neutral. Flying + Poison is terrible. You lose to basically every steel type, since Skarmory's attack is pityful without SD.

 

[Birdy [old]]

Moltres is really an awesome poke. I remember when I've even out-stalled Tyranitars who forget about Pressure and loses all his Stone Edges.

I think the only problem with Moltres is SR, that 50% hurts like hell. People don't usually like switching in when you know you're taking 50%. This basically means you're forced to use a Spinner when using Moltres. With spinning such a risk, I doubt many people would like to put a spinner on their team. And by killing your spinner, your opponent basically gained a 2 poke advantage, since sending moltres out while SR is up is basically suicide.

 

[darkseeker4]

yeah i figured fire+psn would win.
Anywyas stall teams already need Rapid spiners so moltres would be a beast in a stall team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I have to say, I've fought moltres a couple of times, and when using a team that doesn't use stealth rock (taking advantage of people playing with SR-resistant teams to instead pack more powerful attacks in all the move slots), this thing can be a real bitch to take down . . .

However I found that the people who used it themselves underestimated its power, and let it be taken down too easily not realizing it was their key to victory.

 

[Kay [Old]]

I remember a battle a long time ago I had with another guy where we were both using stall. While he quickly took out some of my Pokemon and managed to set up all of the entry hazards on me, he didn't have anyone who used Toxic. The result was that my Moltres ended up outstalling his entire team, and I pulled off the victory.

I have no doubt in my mind that if we actually banned SR, Moltres would instantly become top-tier OU. While it is an extremwly useful Pokemon if used well, it does require quite a bit of support, which I guess is why no one really uses it.

 

[Binabik]

A comparison between ToxicStall Zapdos and ToxicStall Moltres would be amazing because I think Zapdos is it's biggest rival.

 

[monkfish]

- Zapdos poses less of a threat to Steel types with only nonSTAB Heat Wave
- Moltres will take twice Zapdos' SR damage
- Zapdos has 10 more base speed (90-100 is quite significant)
- Zapdos can nullify its weaknesses by using Roost; Moltres retains its Rock and Water weaknesses even when Roosting

 

[Objection]

- Zapdos can nullify its weaknesses by using Roost; Moltres retains its Rock and Water weaknesses even when Roosting

Zapdos also nullifies its grass and bug resistance when Roosting.

 

[locopoke]

2. The BEST counter to Scizor you can have besides Ho-oh, again.

Eh really? Skarmory can come in on Scizor just as well and be able to set up Spikes while Scizor really can't hurt it. Moltres may have better typing to deal with Scizor and a STAB Fire move to OHKO it, but Skarmory doesn't take a huge 50% from Stealth Rock. I know that's the most commonly used argument when it comes to discussing Moltres but that's for a good reason.

I use StallTres very often in UU and it's probably the most useful Pokemon on my team. Though I can assure you that I do have a Rapid Spinner on my team and there are countless times where I'll need to switch my Pokemon around just for the sole purpose of pulling off Rapid Spin so that Moltres can come out. Even though it's usually worth it, all of that switching can put my team at a disadvantage.

With this in mind and knowing how much more common SR is in OU, do you really think Moltres can Stall better than Zapdos?

Zapdos: 90 HP | 90 Atk | 85 Def | 125 SpA | 90 SpD | 100 Spe

Moltres: 90 HP | 100 Atk | 90 Def | 125 SpA | 85 SpD | 90 Spe


Sure, Moltres' Attack exceeds Zapdos' by 10, as well as having 90 Defense in comparison to 85. Though do those really matter that much? What is Moltres going to be doing with 100 base attack? And 90 base defense isn't going to be helping it survive any Stone Edges anytime soon. Moltres also lacks 100 base speed, which means that there are a lot of very commonly used Pokemon that can outrun it with 328 speed, and that's a big disadvantage for Moltres.

As mentioned above, Zapdos can also Roost away it's weakness' while Moltres is still weak to Water and Rock, that's gonna put it at a disadvantage when it comes to PP Stalling, and because of the 90 base speed, you may not nessecarily be outrunning your opponent. As for Moltres' attacking moves, there's Air Slash and Flamethrower. Sure, you can hit Steel types with STAB and maybe OHKO things such as Heracross with Air Slash (though you may not nessecarily be using it on your set), but compare that to Zapdos' movepool. Zapdos gets Heat Wave, though it's not STAB, but does it need to be that powerful to OHKO Scizor and Forretress? Zapdos also has STAB Electric, which is a much better attacking type than Fire. With better speed, Zapdos can definetely PP Stall much better and Roost away it's weakness', while Moltres can't.

I keep repeating all of the disadvantages that Moltres has, I know. I would mention some of the advantages of using Moltres instead of Zapdos but there aren't many. Like the OP mentioned, Moltres has better typing to deal with Scizor, but Zapdos resists Superpower, Bullet Punch and X-Scissor as well, and really that's all that matters. Moltres also gets Will-O-Wisp which is a great way of crippling Physical Attackers, but generally (this may be just my opinion though) you're going to want to use StallTres, as it's one of the better sets. So let's go over this again:

What makes Moltres the best Toxic staller?
- Good speed, unlike Blissey and Porygon2, allows it to set up a fast Subsitute. 184 Speed makes you faster than Adamant Gyarados and Milotic, who you can possibly stall out if it has been posioned previously. You can also switch in on Mamoswine as long as they don't use Stone Edge and beat it with Flamethrower.

With Zapdos having more speed than Moltres, Zapdos can outrun Adamant Gyarados and Milotic as well. Though the difference is that Zapdos can use Thunderbolt to OHKO Gyarados and 2HKO Milotic, while Moltres' only option would be PP Stall.

- Reliable recovery in Roost. This is very important. Roost buys you an Ice resist, in addition to making you neutral to Electric attacks. Obviously, it allows you to keep Toxic stalling and even recover off Stealth Rock damage.

Reliable recovery in Roost? It can't even Roost away it's biggest weakness...

- STAB Flamethrower lets you beat Steel-types immune to Toxic. Even though Zapdos now has Heat Wave, it has to choose between STAB or a Fire attack. Even then, Heat Wave can't get past CM Jirachi or Bronzong very easily. Along with Toxic, only Heatran, Tentacruel and Qwilfish resist your moves. Forget Qwilfish, Heatran can easily be stalled out. You only have to worry about Taunt Tran and Explosion. Tentacruel will usually stop your rampage but it isn't all that common or difficult to kill.

Zapdos has Heat Wave, though it doesn't have STAB, but do you really need STAB when it comes to ensuring an OHKO on Scizor or Forretress? Also, you mention that Heatran, Tentacruel and Qwilfish are the only Pokemon resisting Moltres' moves. With Zapdos, they won't be a problem at all. Once again, STAB Electric is a much better attacking type than STAB Fire.

- The Pressure is on! The usually useless ability Pressure allows you to stall out almost any Pokemon. In comes CB Tyranitar to Stone Edge you. After 4 turns of using it, it will be forced to Struggle. Although you can't use Subsitute four times (or die to sandstorm), it is quite likely it will miss at least once. Then you are free to use Toxic and stall it out.

"The Pressure is on!" with Zapdos as well. You mention CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge here, but remember, Moltres can't roost away that weakness, Zapdos can.


I believe I've made my point.

 

[blasphemy1]

locopoke, Skarmory is easily 2HKOed by a SD LO Superpower, while only being able to Phaze him away, that is by no means a counter.

Zapdos AND Moltres lose to a smart Ttar user anyways, since Crunch will kill them before they can stall them out of PP. They both need a Sub up before Roosting, and neither should stay in very long.

For Toxicstalling, fire is without question the better typing. Yeah, Zapdos hits Tentacruel, Heatran, and Qwilfish, but Heatran will beat you one on one with either A)Choice Scarf, or B)SpD EVs, both of which are fairly common.

The advantage of Moltres is the threat and possible inclusion of Will-o-Wisp on a SubRoost set, sometimes keeping TTar at bay, while Zapdos has NO shot. Call me crazy, but I ran a HP Ground / WoW / Sub / Roost set to decent success.

 

[TAY]

Skarmory Brave Bird will likely deal around 40% to Scizor, which turns to 60% after it uses Superpower. While this doesn't necessarily mean that Skarmory will win 1v1, it is certainly more than "only being able to phase [Scizor] away".

Anyway, saying that Moltres is a better Scizor counter than Skarmory is ridiculous. Now that people have figured out that U-turn is actually a really good move, the primary strategy with Scizor is simply to U-turn and rack up SR damage until it can sweep. I think that the OP significantly overemphasizes the ease of permanently removing Stealth Rock from your field. To put it briefly, any team offensive enough to run a suicide lead is probably not going to give you much of a chance to use Rapid Spin, short of switching Forretress in on an Outrage; any other team will simply set up Stealth Rocks again.

As far as the other spinners go: Donphan is incredibly terrible and shouldn't even be mentioned. LO Starmie is a decent enough Rapid Spinner, but even then you won't be able to remove SR all of the time. And while Moltres is "good" with SR gone, it isn't any better than Zapdos or Gyarados or Celebi or anything else, and they're good even without Stealth Rock gone. Removing SR is just an extra unnecessary step in order to use something that isn't (relatively) incredibly good to begin with.

The one reason I can see to use Moltres is if you need a counter to both Infernape and Heatran in your last team slot. Infernape is particularly notable since nothing else can literally switch into all its moves without any risk (even Latias fears U-turn). Still, the absolutely necessaity of bringing a spinner paired with the risk of your opponent going on the offensive before you are able to spin rocks away is generally too great an obstacle to fitting Moltres onto your team.

 

[Objection]

So to make sure SR stays off the field, kill the SR set-upper, bring in your spinner and see if they have a ghost. If they do, kill it. If they don't, spin. This does mean that you need a rapid spinner that can deal with ghosts, so Donphan and Forretress are out of the question immediately. Even if you can't get rid of SR, Moltres isn't completely unusable. Bring him in on a predicted Earthquake from a suspected choice user and Roost off the damage.

 

[Tleilax]

If you have to Roost on the turn they switch it means they get a free switch to their best Moltres counter. If you Sub instead of Roost, you get your Sub broken and are still at below nominal health, and putting you at dangerously low HP if you have to switch out and come back in later.

It's also not usually an easy matter to kill the SR user unless it's a suicide lead, they misplay, or you completely outpredict them.

 

[TAY]

So to make sure SR stays off the field, kill the SR set-upper, bring in your spinner and see if they have a ghost. If they do, kill it. If they don't, spin. This does mean that you need a rapid spinner that can deal with ghosts, so Donphan and Forretress are out of the question immediately. Even if you can't get rid of SR, Moltres isn't completely unusable. Bring him in on a predicted Earthquake from a suspected choice user and Roost off the damage.

So now you have to kill the SR user too? That's even more situational lol. As I said before, making Moltres viable is a lot easier said than done.

Forretress can beat Rotom with Payback.

Obviously Moltres isn't completely useless even if SR is down, but it fails to counter Scizor, Infernape, and Heatran, so really "what's the point".

EDIT: of course that's something you could try to do anyway; the point is that it is an even more difficult task than just spinning rocks alone.

 

[Objection]

So now you have to kill the SR user too? That's even more situational lol.

What do you mean? Even when I don't use Moltres, I still want to keep SR off my side so I'll kill the SR user to make sure it doesn't set up SR again anyway. I guess that's just my playing style though.

It's also not usually an easy matter to kill the SR user unless it's a suicide lead, they misplay, or you completely outpredict them.

I actually tailored my Moltres to kill the SR set-upper Swampert. It comes in on a predicted EQ, outspeeds and OHKOs with Expert Belt HP Grass if the Swampert has no special defence EVs (which only one I've seen does). It can deal with Metagross and Bronzong in the same way only with Flamethrower instead. Relying on completely outpredicting an opponent isn't always as hard as people make it sound.