Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)

[blasphemy1]

Tay, you are completely forgetting about the pokemon who can use Foresight + Rapid Spin, namely Hitmontop and Blastoise, although the former is preferrable due to his ability to switch into TTar with impunity. Hell, I run a mixed Jirachi with Grass Knot/Fire Punch to combat the typical leads, and with a Choice Scarf Stealth Rock only gets laid 40% of the time against suicide leads(Iron Head). Zen Headbutt handles Infernape, so really, not many teams will be getting Stealth Rock up. IF they do, Foresight Hitmontop does the job. I can still use him to counter Tyranitar and Lucario(if Moltres dies), so it isn't a burden to my team at all.

Moltres poses more of an immediate threat to Scizor, unlike Skarmory, and I believe that is the definition of a counter-being able to switch in on any number of moves and pose a threat to kill/force a switch.

Moltres can still counter Heatran(with SR up), as Fire Blast doesn't even do half its health, meaning it can SubRoost it.

Tay, if people are willing to give an entire pokemon dedicated to supporting offensive teams(suicide leads) and baton pass teams(DS Memento/U-Turn), then why not take a less extreme approach, yet still yield the payoffs, on a more consistent basis?

I have to disagree with your statement about Gyarados being good with SR up, I find it hampers his sweeping abilities too much, which is why he often isn't on my teams. With Life Orb recoil, even Scizor can come in and revenge kill.

 

[MetaNite]

Moltres is still able to counter scizor since it is slower, but not necessarily Heatran and definately not Infernape. Rapid Spinning is a lot easier than you may think. You don't even have to kill the Stealth Rock user, since Azelf or Metagross probably exploded, Hippowdon with EQ and Ice Fang gets easily stalled out by Moltres so all you got to do is switch him in. And finding a turn to use Rapid Spin is pretty easy too. You know a Weavile will switch out of Forretress, Gyarados out of Starmie, etc. Sometimes it's easier to just use a Scarf Roserade / Breloom lead to just put the leading Stealth Rocker to sleep, or at least force it out. Against Metagross and Jirachi leads you can just switch Moltres in right away before it gets a chance to use Stealth Rock. You wall both of them, and Metagross will likely just explode as you set up a Sub.

I probably did overexaggerate a bit but I still support what I said.

EDIT: Sorry blasphemy1, but I would not back anything using Foresight and Rapid Spin. It takes 2 turns when I'd rather set up a sweep.

Thanks for all the comments guys!

 

[TAY]

I have been running rapid spin for some time now and I know that it isn't horribly difficult to use it...the problem is that it isn't a reliable means of keeping Stealth Rock off the field for reasons I previously stated (offensive teams don't give a chance to spin, other teams lay rocks again). However, while it might be usable (and even powerful), it isn't reliable: even if you could permanently remove SR 70% of the time - an estimate that is more than generous - you would be put at a significant disadvantage the rest of the games with your primary Infernape, Heatran, and Scizor counter rendered almost useless against those Pokemon. Of course you could use other Pokemon to stop them as well, but then "why use Moltres at all".

Moltres is a terrible Scizor counter when SR is up, since Scizor will U-Turn every time it gets the chance. Nothing really counters Scizor in that sense, but Moltres is worse at it that just about anything else due to a 50% SR weak. Though yes, it could still likely stop an SD Scizor sweep (but lots of stuff does that anyway =P ). Again, it's a question of reliability - how often do you really expect to be able to keep SR off the field? Saying "I will kill their SR user" is dumb since "they will kill your rapid spinner". Skarmory is far more reliable in that respect.

Do you seriously expect people to use foresight + rapid spin Blastoise and Hitmontop in OU? I guess Hitmontop is moderately useful since it stops TTar, but in general, using such a subpar pokemon (and using two of its moveslots and often two turns just to spin) will probabaly outweigh any benefit from using Moltres. I've used Rapid Spin Hitmontop in OU and it would up being less than spectacular since it doesn't do much against things not named Blissey or Tyranitar.

Even assuming that Moltres comes into Heatran at full HP every time, it needs a huge special defense investment to always avoid taking 25% from Timid Heatran Fire Blast or Dragon Pulse (something like max HP and 220 SpDef EVs with a +SpDef nature). Which I guess is fine, but Moltres switching in at max HP will be the exception more than the rule. The lack of speed from running that spread will also reduce Moltres' effectiveness as a Sub Roost user.

The difference between this and a suicide lead or a DS Baton Pass team is that Moltres is intended to be used defensively (at least, we have been discussing it in an entirely defensive context). Offensive teams can maintain the initiative the entire game, and Baton Pass teams can end the game in a matter of turns. On a defensive or balanced team, which should be either absorbing the opponent's attacks or preventing them in the first place, having a Pokemon switch in at 50% health most of the time is inexcusable. Offensive / Baton Pass teams use those sacrifices to an advantage; Moltres just gets KOed easily without providing gain.

Gyarados being "good" or not with SR up was just an arbitrary choice. Breloom is "good" with SR up; Blissey is "good" with SR up. Even if Gyarados isn't, there are gobs of other Pokemon besides Moltres who are.

Can you really say that Moltres is a reliable defensive choice?

 

[MetaNite]

But then you beg the question, why switch out of Scizor? If you know it will U-turn, why not just let your Mamoswine Earthquake it to the grave? If it has only used U-turn thus far, why expect it to stop when Scizor probably isn't even their only Pokemon to beat Mamoswine. Not just Mamoswine, but Azelf too and other Pokemon. That is why prediction is so important. I agree, if Stealth Rock is on the field, Skarmory is a way better Scizor counter. If Stealth Rock does make it on the field, I at least use Moltres as healthy death fodder so I can bring in a Pokemon to beat Infernape. Not a counter, so it is still a reason to use Moltres. I'll change that on the front page.

When I said Moltres can counter Heatran, I meant coming in on an Earth Power.

 

[Iggeh]

Moltres isn't a wall, its basically sweeps any team without Sandstorm by stalling. I'm quite surprised by the reaction to the Sub/Roost/Toxic/Flamethrower set, as its pretty old and I had thought it was standard. Anyways, its really good, but I really don't want to endorse because it is seriously one of the most frustrating sets ever. And I'm using the word frustrating to refrain from using stronger language.

Choice Specs Moltres really shines in UU though. Don't even talk about walling it; there are only a handful of pokes that can even survive a hit, and even then they take a chunk of damage. With power like that, it would be overpowered if it COULD switch in more than twice.

 

[panamaxis]

But then you beg the question, why switch out of Scizor? If you know it will U-turn, why not just let your Mamoswine Earthquake it to the grave?

Because unfortunately, Scizor is going to come in on something that U-turn will hurt if it stays in anyway (celebi is the most common example).

I think what TAY is trying to say is: Scizor is going to want to U-turn as much as possible to scout, but it will not necessarily always use it.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I think Moltres needs too much support and it really isn't worth the it. Yes, rapid spinning is a possible solution but even so what's to stop them from setting it up again? If they manage to kill your spinner (Starmie & Forretress can both be trapped by Scizor and Magnezone) then you've got nothing to stop you from eating 50% from Stealth Rock later on. I will say that it's typing makes it a great counter to Scizor but must rely on HP Ground to beat the likes of incoming Heatran.

 

[Jonathan]

Moltres is a niche Pokmeon. Next time you're racking your brain to find a counter to Scizor, Heatran, Lucario AND Infernape why not take a gandar at Moltres. Just remember to get rid of Stealth Rock. Thanks for reading!

Or, you know, I could just use a RestTalk Gyarados.

 

[paramylodon]

Rest/talk gyara would work great if you want recovery and the ability to counter that list of threats. Defensively oriented gyarados also have much less to fear from the 11.6% chance infernape has stone edge, or the 11.5% chance lucario has stone edge then does moltres. It would hurt a lot, but thanks to intimidate and only be 2x week, still far less then it would hurt moltres.

I think the primary point of this topic being created was to suggest that moltres was being used wrongly (as a choiced pokemon with offensive movesets, leading to air slash being the most used move), and that alternative sets were far better choices, as it seems most people here agree.

 

[Jonathan]

I'm not sure I agree though, because as it's been pointed out, Moltres hardly stands out in those two categories when compared with other OU Pokemon which do those jobs. Without SR it's pretty much on par with things like Zapdos at Toxic Stalling, or Gyarados at countering the aforementioned Pokemon (this is a stretch IMO but lets give Moltres the benefit of the doubt). With SR though...

I think a good analogy of choosing to use Moltres over say Zapdos is like choosing to play the same video game on Hard vs. Normal mode. A bit of an oversimplification but it really drives the point home I think. And this is why, assuming Moltres' offensive sets suck, (something I'm in no position to argue, but which you seem to be saying) there really is no reason to use Moltres in OU.

 

[MetaNite]

Offensive Moltres is outclassed by Heatran who has arguably better typing, and since Choice Moltres can't utilize Roost it can't heal Stealth Rock damage. Plus, Heatran has Explosion for Blissey.

Restalk Gyarados can't OHKO SD Lucario, so it in theory can set up one or two more Sword Dances while you perhaps Sleep Talk Rest or something. Moltres also has Will-O-Wisp for Lucario, and also for that Gyarados coming in for Scizor. I suppose it comes down to if you can get Stealth Rock off the field, but even then you are not useless. The analysis' SubRoost Zapdos doesn't even have Toxic, nor mentions Heat Wave anywhere. With only Thunderbolt, you are utterly walled by Bronzong, Jirachi, Heatran, in addition to the rare Nidoqueen and Nidoking.

 

[Jonathan]

I think you're getting way too caught up in theorymon and giving examples which suit your case best (like Gyara choosing sleep talk while lucario SDs).

I can tell you from extensive experience using ResTalk Gyara that it handles Lucario perfectly well. Not once have I been set up on and swept, and Gyarados is my only real Lucario counter.

The SubRoost Zapdos set in the analysis DOES indeed mention toxic as a viable alternative. And I can tell you also based on my experience using SubRoost Zapdos (without Toxic, but that's not the point given the pokemon you mentioned) that:

- Bronzong does shit to you while you can just set up a sub and hammer it with Thunderbolt
- You can stall out Fire Blast from Choice Scarf Heatran (assuming you don't get burned)

I used SubRoost Zapdos pre-Platinum so I never encountered many Jirachi, but I don't see why you can't just set up a sub and hit it with Thunderbolt. You resist Iron Head already.

Just because Moltres hits these Pokemon harder doesn't mean Zapdos can't handle them.

And I'm not even gonna address the Nidos. Sorry but I think you're just getting desperate here.

 

[blasphemy1]

I really think people are underestimating the power of Foresight + Rapid Spin. What DD Tyranitar is going to stay in on Hitmontop after you have Intimidated it, AND threaten to OHKO with Close Combat? This allows a free turn to Foresight, or Rapid Spin if you have scouted for Rotom-A(REALLY easy to do with CB Scizor, who lures it like a magnet, and Rotom-A+any Scizor counter is pretty redundant), so you either just smacked around their Gyarados, Zapdos, or Rotom-A, while also getting rid of Stealth Rock on your side. I really think people should try Foresight + Rapid Spin before they bash it, otherwise, if Stealth Rock is THAT hard to get rid of, I can't see why it wouldn't be banned, if only for the fact that Salamence and Gyarados are held in check by it, in which case the pokemon themselves are broken as well.

 

[husk]

Both rapid spin and foresight would ideally be done on free turns. The point is that even if you foresight one turn you still have to rapid spin the next turn. You had the tempo by forcing your opponent out then you purposely lose it in an attempt to get rid of SR? Not to mention hitmontop has to take a hit from whatever they just switched in while it spins.

Being forced to use hitmontop AND moltres in an environment where both are outclassed seems like a bad idea.

 

[Objection]

As long as SR is up on your side, your opponent has an advantage. Attempts to get rid of it are attempts at removing this advantage, so you don't lose the tempo at all. Instead, you have a different tempo to what the majority of players would expect, which is not always a bad thing.

Also, nobody's forcing you to use anything. If you don't want to use Hitmontop or Moltres, then don't.

 

[Tleilax]

Using Foresight and Rapid Spin is two free turns for the enemy to do something to you. Hitmontop barely functions in OU as is. Having him out pretty much doing nothing JUST to get rocks off the field is tantamount to suicide, especially against offensive teams who may only need one free turn to sweep you.

Of course, using Foresight assumes that a Ghost is coming out. If you've scouted it fine. However, if a Ghost DOESN'T come in you've shot yourself in the foot. Salamence and Gyarados would be great switch-ins, and get a free set-up. When you force the enemy out you need to take the initiative. When you Forefight/Rapid Spin you are giving up the initiative, and giving them a chance to put pressure on you instead.

That's all assuming the SR user is gone, as well. If it's still around he can just put them back up again.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The problem with Moltres, aside from the obvious SR weak, is that Zapdos does everything it does...except much better. This is especially true since Zapdos learns Heat Wave.

Zapdos is even a better Toxic-Staller, it is faster than Moltres...Roost actually takes away Zapdos' Rock weakness...Moltres is still weak to Water...Zapdos has much better type coverage with only 2 moves...it destroys Flying-types that are immune to Toxic Spikes...etc etc. Moltres is good at what it does, but it is outclassed so much by Zapdos :(

 

[Chou Toshio]

Tay, if people are willing to give an entire pokemon dedicated to supporting offensive teams(suicide leads) and baton pass teams(DS Memento/U-Turn), then why not take a less extreme approach, yet still yield the payoffs, on a more consistent basis?

It's all about payoff. Moltres is cool, but I'm sorry it's no where near the same level as a +2/+2 Salamence (or even a +1/+1 mence) set up following azelf or a +2/+2 Metagross set up by Baton Pass.

Also Foresight/Rapid Spin seems like some 2 whole wasted turns when I could have spent them setting up my own spikes, stat boosts or hell just attacking (more like 3 wasted turns, the rapid spin miss as they switched in their ghost, a turn to foresight, and then rapid spin again. God if that had been Luke instead of top, I could have gotten up Swords Dance, killed the ghost with Crunch and then sweep).

 

[blasphemy1]

It's all about payoff. Moltres is cool, but I'm sorry it's no where near the same level as a +2/+2 Salamence (or even a +1/+1 mence) set up following azelf or a +2/+2 Metagross set up by Baton Pass.

Also Foresight/Rapid Spin seems like some 2 whole wasted turns when I could have spent them setting up my own spikes, stat boosts or hell just attacking (more like 3 wasted turns, the rapid spin miss as they switched in their ghost, a turn to foresight, and then rapid spin again. God if that had been Luke instead of top, I could have gotten up Swords Dance, killed the ghost with Crunch and then sweep).

Typically, I scout with my CB Scizor, trying to lure in Rotom-A, if they don't bring him in, I typically just spin the next turn 'Top is in. It is less effort, for less payoff, and I typically find myself destroying the exact DS + Suicide lead + BP teams, so I don't find them very credible to compare to Moltres.

As for Foresight/Rapid Spin, maybe that is your style. I like to play it defensively, and since Stealth Rock is typically game changing anyways, I have no problem using half of an entire pokemon to get rid of it. Besides, Hitmontop functions really well in OU, I don't think people understand that even with the shitty HP he still has Intimidate, 95 base defense, and 110 base special defense. Let's take a look at what he can accomplish even if the opponent doesn't set up SR: 1)Counter Tyranitar, 2)Counter SD Lucario, 3)Lower Scizor's attack so Jolteon can take a BP, 4)Switch into Blissey, 5)Badly poison Rotom-A, thus hindering its longevity unless it has Resttalk, which typically means less coverage or no burn. There are plenty more, those just help my team in particular. Hitmontop is by no means a dead weight, and unlike Salamence, doesn't give my team an overwhelming ice weak, since I already have Flygon.

EDIT: Yes, I love SD Lucario, however, this strategy isn't stopped by Zapdos, Scarf Rotom-H, Scarf Magnezone, Salamence, or Gyarados, all of which tend to annoy me and atleast one is just about on every team

 

[Chou Toshio]

I know that it's "less of a sacrifice for less of a reward," and obviously having a Hitmontop with only 2 moves outside spinning is still more useful than a dead azelf/uxie.

However in this case, I am saying the rewards are just outside of comparison. A +2/+2 Salamence/Metagross is a fucking God that could have a good chance at sweeping a team of Ubers. An unhindered moltres is only on part with other OU pokes, even to the point where people would question whether it is better than Zapdos or not, and Zappy doesn't need spin support so desperately.

I'm not saying Hitmontop is useless, but outside spinning it's nothing compared to say Machamp or Breloom, or even Hariyama imo. Especially with only 2 other moves so you ARE sacrificing a something significant compared to just using a team that doesn't require a spinner.

 

[Objection]

Especially with only 2 other moves so you ARE sacrificing a something significant compared to just using a team that doesn't require a spinner.

Serious question: when does a team NOT require a spinner?

 

[Tleilax]

Serious question: when does a team NOT require a spinner?

I almost never see any teams use a spinner. I haven't run it in ages except as filler on a Smeargle. It's not as bad as you seem to think, and not worth basing a whole Pokemon on it.

 

[Luxormaniac]

Actually, lately I've been running a lead LO Starmie (Timid, 252/252 with Hydro Pump/GK/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin) and it almost always either kills the opposing lead before it sets up SR or just Spins it away. Later I'm gonna test that with a StallTres. I'll report back with how that turns out.

EDIT: Starmie kept the SR from getting down, but overall Moltres was lackluster.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Actually, Rapid Spin is a relatively bad move, if only for the fact that there is a move that obviously out-classes it. SR, or any other entry hazard move.

Let me put it this way: Each turn is an opportunity to accomplish something for your team. In other words each turn you are paying the cost of 1 turn in order to forward your strategy.

If the opponent uses SR, and I later Rapid Spin, here are the benefits each player got:

Rapid Spin: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to set up SR, which I later got rid of)

SR User: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to get rid of SR) + Some Damage from setting up SR

I realize this is definitely an over-simplification, but it holds true at the basic level.

In other words, it is clear that in terms of cost/benefit analysis, Rapid Spin is inherently inferior to simply setting up your own entrance hazards. The only time Rapid Spin actually gets better cost/benefits is when it manages to get rid of multiple hazards (which quite frankly is rare).

Also it's reliability is questionable as Tay mentioned. If I design an offensive team with few SR-weak pokemon, and that is meant to sacrifice the SR-weak ones early, I can be almost completely certain about how much effect SR will have on my battles. If I have many SR weak or 4x SR weak pokes and rely on a rapid spinner, I really don't know how much an effect SR will have on the battle, because I can't be certain I will succeed in using Rapid Spin or that the turn I spend doing it won't cost me the game (like him setting up DD on the spin or just killing a critical poke).

Now considering opportunity costs (obviously rapid-spinning the incoming celebi is worth a lot more than close-combating it) mean that it is not a bad move, it just is not a really good move, and certainly not a necessary one.

 

[Rurushu]

If the opponent uses SR, and I later Rapid Spin, here are the benefits each player got:

Rapid Spin: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to set up SR, which I later got rid of)

SR User: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to get rid of SR) + Some Damage from setting up SR

I realize this is definitely an over-simplification, but it holds true at the basic level.

I can't say that you're wrong, but your explanation is so basic that it can't prove anything.

When i use rapid spin, i'm saving my team health, so the damage that i won't be taking will usually outnumber the damage that i already suffered(because you'll probably never spin at the late game).

Of course, spinning only for the sake of doing so won't do you any good (you could be sweeping/attacking/etc). But when getting the rocks out of your field is important (like when you want to sweep with a salamence with enough health to resist CB Bullet Punches) rapid spin isn't bad, because your opponent could rely on it to stop some threats (the DDmence, for example).

But you should not overspecialize your spinner, neither should you just don't care about spin blockers. LO Starmie is the better spinner in today's metagame. She works incredible well against all-out offense teams and beats the spin blockers, so she fills the two qualities that a rapid spinner should have: being a overall good pokémon, and being able to beat the spin blockers.
Sadly, she is the only really effective spinner...but i guess that you can use a payback forretress if you really need a spinner and a steel.

Well, your spinner should not be "OK I MUST TAKE THESE ROCKS OUT OF THE FIELD SO I CAN DIE" neither should your team only work without rocks on the field, so...moltres isn't really good ):
Sure, he is a bitch to take down once he set-up, but there's no reason to use him over zapdos. Even after the rocks are out of the field, zapdos outclasses him (better attacking type, better speed, better defensive type).

Use moltres at the UU metagame (he is even better with yanmegas everywhere) and let the OU ToxicStalling for Zapdos.