Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)

[haunter]

Moltres cannot switch into Heatran is SR is up. As I posted earlier, a Modest ScarfTran will 2HKO will Fire Blast 100% of the time barring a miss after SR damage. So unless SR is taken of the field then the only one Moltres counters better on that list is Infernape.

Just to add that even if the aforementioned scarf-tran is naive\timid fire blast is a guaranteed 2hko on a 188hp\ min sp.def Moltres doing a minimum damage of 30% (a slim chance of survival with leftovers though).
So, unless you can spin away SR (or prevent your opponent from setting up it), Moltres can't really counter Heatran.

 

[Reno]

Meh, 252 HP/100 Def/156 Speed works just as well.

Anyway, anyone saying Moltres is terrible in OU is just wrong. Yes, it needs a tiny bit of support, but that doesn't make it bad. Countering top threats really quite well makes it a good choice.

 

[Tleilax]

Meh, 252 HP/100 Def/156 Speed works just as well.

Anyway, anyone saying Moltres is terrible in OU is just wrong. Yes, it needs a tiny bit of support, but that doesn't make it bad. Countering top threats really quite well makes it a good choice.

It would still be 2HKOed if Heatran ran Modest. It does a minimum of 32% if Moltres has 248 HP EVs, which is a guaranteed KO if Moltres switches into it even with Lefties unless it misses.

The question isn't it being terrible, although seeing that it requires support to be useful against most threats is a turn-off. The question is whether or not he's worth the support. He really doesn't counter anything that Zapdos already doesn't, and Zapdos can force more Pokemon out with it's electric STAB. Zapdos is also faster, which makes a big difference. Basically, Moltres is outclassed in almost every way by Zapdos, especially when taking SR into account.

 

[blasphemy1]

It would still be 2HKOed if Heatran ran Modest. It does a minimum of 32% if Moltres has 248 HP EVs, which is a guaranteed KO if Moltres switches into it even with Lefties unless it misses.

The question isn't it being terrible, although seeing that it requires support to be useful against most threats is a turn-off. The question is whether or not he's worth the support. He really doesn't counter anything that Zapdos already doesn't, and Zapdos can force more Pokemon out with it's electric STAB. Zapdos is also faster, which makes a big difference. Basically, Moltres is outclassed in almost every way by Zapdos, especially when taking SR into account.

Well this is 100% false, because when Stealth Rock isn't in play, it is the other way around, Moltres outclassing Zapdos. He can counter Lucario, Heatran, Infernape, and Scizor, something Zapdos can't do all of at the same time. Lucario can OHKO with Ice Punch, unless you run Timid w/176 EVs or so, can't remember of the top of my head, either way it means you sacrifice bulk. Zapdos stands no chance against Infernape or Heatran, both of whom can 2HKO with their Fire Blasts.

The amount of support necessary really isn't that much of a burden. Like other people including myself have already mentioned, Hitmontop can switch into a few potent threats to Moltres, most notably Tyranitar, and spin rocks away.

 

[ElCee]

What about Naive or Hasty Scarftran? I thought those were the more common ones.

The truth is, when comparing OUs, UUs and maybe a few NUs, you'll find that there is never one pokemon that is better in every aspect.

Your signature BRAGS about having never even used half of OU, so how do you know something isn't outclassed by something else you never used? Sure, there's UUs that fill a few niches here and there(Porygon2, for example, etc.) but there are those that are just flat out outclassed(Rotom and Altaria are the first two that pop into my head). Some UUs are actually viable in OU for specific purposes, yes, but those occasions are relatively rare.

Well this is 100% false, because when Stealth Rock isn't in play, it is the other way around, Moltres outclassing Zapdos. He can counter Lucario, Heatran, Infernape, and Scizor, something Zapdos can't do all of at the same time. Lucario can OHKO with Ice Punch, unless you run Timid w/176 EVs or so, can't remember of the top of my head, either way it means you sacrifice bulk. Zapdos stands no chance against Infernape or Heatran, both of whom can 2HKO with their Fire Blasts.

The amount of support necessary really isn't that much of a burden. Like other people including myself have already mentioned, Hitmontop can switch into a few potent threats to Moltres, most notably Tyranitar, and spin rocks away.

I have to wonder why I'm bothering to post here...facts apparently carry no weight in this discussion.

Since Hitmontop has already been shown, repeatedly, to have numerous flaws (and you simply ignore the points against it and don't even respond to them), I'd rather not even talk him specifically. I won't use the word "discuss" since it's not really a discussion when we make points and you come back and just ignore it all.

Let's pretend we live in a world where your opponent has something besides a team of Heatran and 5 Tyranitars. Tell me what you're going to use to counter Heatran when your opponent's lead throws up Stealth Rock and then Heatran(or even Scizor, because he'll U-Turn to something that Moltres can't Roost against) comes out on turn two or three before you had the CHANCE to spin the rocks away?

 

[blasphemy1]

Your signature BRAGS about having never even used half of OU, so how do you know something isn't outclassed by something else you never used? Sure, there's UUs that fill a few niches here and there(Porygon2, for example, etc.) but there are those that are just flat out outclassed(Rotom and Altaria are the first two that pop into my head). Some UUs are actually viable in OU for specific purposes, yes, but those occasions are relatively rare.



I have to wonder why I'm bothering to post here...facts apparently carry no weight in this discussion.

Since Hitmontop has already been shown, repeatedly, to have numerous flaws (and you simply ignore the points against it and don't even respond to them), I'd rather not even talk him specifically. I won't use the word "discuss" since it's not really a discussion when we make points and you come back and just ignore it all.

Let's pretend we live in a world where your opponent has something besides a team of Heatran and 5 Tyranitars. Tell me what you're going to use to counter Heatran when your opponent's lead throws up Stealth Rock and then Heatran(or even Scizor, because he'll U-Turn to something that Moltres can't Roost against) comes out on turn two or three before you had the CHANCE to spin the rocks away?

Let's pretend we live in a world where people had better things to do than check smogon's threads every few minutes/hours. Oh, that is right, it is reality.

All I can really say to your so called "facts" is to try out Moltres sometime, instead of bashing something you clearly haven't used, or atleast haven't used successfully. No, we don't live in a world where your opponent has a Heatran and 5 Tyranitars, as ladder matches A)Use species clause, and B)6 of the top ten pokemon are handled by two pokemon-Hitmontop and Moltres. Don't try to ignore the facts that this combination is incredibly useful in your average OU battle, where Scizor, Heatran, and Infernape are all top 5 most used pokemon, incidentally checked by Moltres. If you want to look deeper into OU, ~20 or so OU pokemon are handled by two pokemon, just 1/3 of your team, while also reaping the benefits perfect stalling coverage(barring Heatran, who is countered by a Moltres w/Substitute up anyways).

Maybe if you were to look deeper and use more profound analytical skills you could understand that Moltres and Hitmontop work exceptionally well in OU, but to atleast try him out in OU is all I am asking before you decide to argue that they aren't viable(especially Foresight Hitmontop, he laughs at the large majority of OU teams).

EDIT: Self-righteously declared facts don't carry any weight ANYwhere. If you could support your argument with statistics of Moltres in OU, fine, I would then agree to disagree. However, nothing you can say will change my mind that Moltres is a worthy pokemon in OU. Call me ignorant, but it is my choice after all.

 

[Thorns]

Call me ignorant, but it is my choice after all.

you're ignorant. Drop Foresight Hitmontop. It is terrible andno one is gonna use a dead weight Pokemon do set up for another crappy Pokemon to do something other Pokemon do better. Zapdos is better at Toxic Stalling, due to superior defensive typing (when I say superior defensive typing, I mean it doesn't have a Water weakness). Countering Scizor is done by Rotom-a, the aforemented Zapdos and Gliscor. All of these Pokemon can do other stuff too. Rotom beats out other things like Togekiss and equipped with a Scarf, is a reliable revenge killer for so many things.

Gliscor is a very reliable wall, and it is part of the infamous Gliscor -> Metagross combo which can be pulled off with minimal support. Zapdos is the all-purpose wall/sweeper/Toxic staller.

Hitmontop. Absolute setup bait for every single sweeper except for possibly maybe Tyranitar. You can waste time trying to spin rocks to bring in a Pokemon that has clear cut, common counters (don't even say Substitute, if Substitute was a valid argument Tyranitar would be able to tear through most of the OU tier). Spin away rocks? Cool, now my Gyarados has one or two boosts and is gonna ruin you.

Moltres is terrible.

 

[Veedrock]

Articuno can Toxic Stall just the same. Why not use it instead? All you need is some team support. Bullet Punch? I got Magnezone in the wings. Stealth Rock? No problem, I have an extremely weak link on my team named Hitmontop. My point is that there's a point where a pokemon requires too much support to be viable. Moltres is one of those, because rapid spin IS (nearly) too much on it's own. It doesn't help when Moltres just sits there. Maybe your argument would have had ground prior to Platinum, but Zapdos has Heatwave now and does not require any support. So if we're considering them equal (you can blah blah about Moltres being "better"), Zapdos is superior because you do not have to slow down just to support the thing. What happens when you need Moltres RIGHT NOW, and Stealth Rock is on the field? You're kind of ruined with Moltres, but Zapdos is right on call.

As for your ungodly Foresight Hitmontop, it's really flawed. Not only are you stuck with Hitmontop (I won't debate his general effectiveness in OU), you're stuck a crippled Hitmontop. You have to give up 2 very, very valuable moveslots for 2 useless moves (this is coupled with the fact that you're given up a very valuable team slot). As mentioned (and ignored), if a ghost doesn't switch in (say, Salamence), you're ruined. You could stay and Rapid Spin, giving the opponent free turns to set up and sweep (don't think Moltres can bail you out of a +1 Salamence either). Rapid Spin is hardly worth all the sacrifices and handicaps your forced with (you may not recognize the handicaps because you appear die-hard anti-standard, meaning you don't care).

You're ignoring every argument thrown against Moltres with your only defense (I repeat, your only defense) being "you haven't used him." You're not responding to anything under that premise. Yes, that's ignorant and stubborn. You'd rather sit in a corner, plug your ears, and pretend everything is the way you want it. If you would provide valid arguments, you wouldn't be "attacked" for sticking to your beliefs. If you were right, you would be able to provide a-forementioned valid arguments.

Also, you want to tell people off for "theorymon," I give you Exhibit A:

Even then, he [Zapdos] is inferior to Rotom-A with the exception of the Pursuit weak, which is offset by the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, and Will-o-Wisp.

I think we're done here. This is as bad as religion vs. atheism.

 

[Tleilax]

Let's pretend we live in a world where people had better things to do than check smogon's threads every few minutes/hours. Oh, that is right, it is reality.

All I can really say to your so called "facts" is to try out Moltres sometime, instead of bashing something you clearly haven't used, or atleast haven't used successfully. No, we don't live in a world where your opponent has a Heatran and 5 Tyranitars, as ladder matches A)Use species clause, and B)6 of the top ten pokemon are handled by two pokemon-Hitmontop and Moltres. Don't try to ignore the facts that this combination is incredibly useful in your average OU battle, where Scizor, Heatran, and Infernape are all top 5 most used pokemon, incidentally checked by Moltres. If you want to look deeper into OU, ~20 or so OU pokemon are handled by two pokemon, just 1/3 of your team, while also reaping the benefits perfect stalling coverage(barring Heatran, who is countered by a Moltres w/Substitute up anyways).

Maybe if you were to look deeper and use more profound analytical skills you could understand that Moltres and Hitmontop work exceptionally well in OU, but to atleast try him out in OU is all I am asking before you decide to argue that they aren't viable(especially Foresight Hitmontop, he laughs at the large majority of OU teams).

EDIT: Self-righteously declared facts don't carry any weight ANYwhere. If you could support your argument with statistics of Moltres in OU, fine, I would then agree to disagree. However, nothing you can say will change my mind that Moltres is a worthy pokemon in OU. Call me ignorant, but it is my choice after all.

Lose the attitude. If you're going to make a claim, you need to learn how to back it up, which so far you haven't done. All you do is get angsty with people who disagree and claim they are ignorant.

Hitmontop is ridiculously outclassed in OU. Why use Hitmontop to take T-tar when I can use Machamp or Hariyama? Machamp can run a RestTalk set with No Guard to get around the low PP of Dynamic Punch and Stone Edge and ream enemies with perfect accuracy of high power moves, along with gaining longevity. Hariyama has immense bulk and can use Thick Fat or Guts both depending on what is needed. He can run several sets effectively. All Hitmontop can do is Spin, and likely get either crippled or set up on while doing so, since as you failed to mention, two of the most dangerous sweepers available come in on it for free and get to set up. Need I keep saying how dangerous letting Salamence and Gyarados set up is? Why run Top to spin when I can use Machamp or Hariyama to chase T-tar out and then continue to perform against the enemy team?

We've already established that Moltres counters things in OU. We've also established that the only thing brought up he counters that Zapdos can't is Infernape. Meanwhile, Zapdos can hit many top threats for at least neutral damage with his far superior STAB. He gets Heat Wave, so he counters Scizor just as well as Moltres. The kicker, however, is that he isn't reliant upon outside support to be effective against what he wants you counter. As confident as you maybe in in Hitmontop's ability to spin, the fact of the matter is that the match has a good chance of not always going that way. So when that Heatran enters the field before Hitmontop, what are you going to do? Switch Hitmontop into Fire Blast as a sacrifice so he can hopefully spin out rocks? Let something else die to get Moltres in safely? You cannot judge a Pokemon by how good it does only if the match is going to your rhythm. With Moltres, if you cannot get those rocks off the field before you need him, you've put yourself at a horrible disadvantage. It becomes a wasted slot. So tell me, finally, WHAT MAKES HIM SO GOOD when compared to Zapdos? Moltres lets you counter Infernape, Zapdos gives you pretty much every water type in OU, and can at least hit the ridiculously common dragons for neutral damage with just his STAB, with the exception of Flygon.

Why do you keep telling us we need to understand? We're not making a claim. You are. You are claiming that Moltres is viable over what is seen as a superior choice by the general public. It's your job to support your own claim. If he's so good against so much, give us some calculations. Run some scenarios through a damage calculator and post the results. Give us a war story where the effectiveness of the strategies you propose is demonstrated. Stop telling us to make your proof for you. You want us to take your claims seriously, make us with numbers, not with baseless accusations and flawed claims.

As a note, I have indeed attempted to use Hitmontop in OU. I found him to be a sub par choice by far, being outclassed at every role he attempts to fill. So you can stop with the ignorance drivel. For someone who claims to abhor "self-righteously declared facts", you throw them around more than any other within the thread.

 

[haunter]

Hitmontop is ridiculously outclassed in OU. Why use Hitmontop to take T-tar when I can use Machamp or Hariyama? Machamp can run a RestTalk set with No Guard to get around the low PP of Dynamic Punch and Stone Edge and ream enemies with perfect accuracy of high power moves, along with gaining longevity. Hariyama has immense bulk and can use Thick Fat or Guts both depending on what is needed. He can run several sets effectively. All Hitmontop can do is Spin, and likely get either crippled or set up on while doing so, since as you failed to mention, two of the most dangerous sweepers available come in on it for free and get to set up.

Although I agree with practically everything you said about Moltres, I beleive Hitmontop isn't such a useless pokemon as you stated.
Yes, Machamp is generally more useful due to higher attack and no guard, but Hitmontop has intimidate, mach punch and rapid spid which make it a good support pokemon and Tyranitar counter as well. And it has stone edge to combat Salamence\Gyarados switches in (though it needs some attack EVs to damage them seriously).
I've seen Hitmontop serving an useful role on stalling hail based teams, providing useful resistances (mainly rock) and the ability to spin away SR.
However, as you already stated some posts ago, Moltres requires too much support to work effectively, and Zapdos does better almost everything Moltres does.

 

[AeroGP]

tl;dr: Having a well-balanced team with good coverage is 100% more important that simply countering things. Only pokemon that provide maximum usefulness in the metagame will be used. Player will not risk their win ratios using anything less, ever. Not even for the sake of countering the top threats. If it can't do MORE for LESS, it's worthless.

 

[blasphemy1]

Do you people hear yourselves? All of this discussion is pure theorymon, and you haven't even tried this crap. Okay, so you switch out your Tyranitar and send in Gyarados as I Rapid Spin? I can simply switch to my Vaporeon, and you must now switch out, taking another 25%(because most of you, lol, think Rapid Spin is bad/unreliable).

Yes, I understand that Zapdos is useful, however there is no ignoring the fact that Moltres can counter Infernape, Heatran, Scizor, and Lucario when SR isn't up-how is that outclassed. Again, the ONLY way Moltres is outclassed is by Zapdos is the larger Stealth Rock weakness.

Don't try to accuse me of throwing around self-righteously declared facts, the majority of the people arguing against Moltres are using simple theorymon.

Tleilax: How is Hitmontop outclassed? I really don't know how you can mess up the best/2nd best Tyranitar counter in the game, or find an ample opportunity to spin away rocks.

I don't see this discussion going anywhere and I am just going to stop here. Calling me ignorant for actually testing a pokemon is ridiculous, and I really had higher expectations of fellow smogoners. Again, whether you regard it or not, I have used Moltres successfully and will continue to do so, no matter how hard you try and argue. Why bother arguing with me anyways? Do you feel you must enlighten every single person and force them to use standards, even though many UU pokemon, specifically Moltres, can function in OU viably?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Do you people hear yourselves? All of this discussion is pure theorymon, and you haven't even tried this crap. Okay, so you switch out your Tyranitar and send in Gyarados as I Rapid Spin? I can simply switch to my Vaporeon, and you must now switch out, taking another 25%(because most of you, lol, think Rapid Spin is bad/unreliable).

Yes, I understand that Zapdos is useful, however there is no ignoring the fact that Moltres can counter Infernape, Heatran, Scizor, and Lucario when SR isn't up-how is that outclassed. Again, the ONLY way Moltres is outclassed is by Zapdos is the larger Stealth Rock weakness.

Wait, you are getting mad at other people for theorymonning but then you go and propose an equally theorymon-based situation to defend yourself?

It is outclassed because Zapdos doesn't need the support of its teammates to put up a fight. Not only is Electric a better type than Fire both offensively and defensively, working at 75% is just so much more comforting than being at 50%. Hell, Moltres' most important thing that it has over Zapdos, Fire STAB, is rendered irrelevant because Zapdos got Heat Wave in Plat. Moltres can counter those few select mons, on paper, but in reality it will be operating at 50% HP more often than not. You send Moltres in to counter Scizor, then take 50% from SR as they U-turn to a Salamence or something...now you have a dead Moltres. Rapid Spinning is much more difficult to pull off than Stealth Rock, so in real-life situations you can't just magically assume that it's gone.

Don't try to accuse me of throwing around self-righteously declared facts, the majority of the people arguing against Moltres are using simple theorymon.

And you are using simple, ridiculously unlikely theorymon to defend yourself. So what?

And the people arguing against Moltres aren't just using theorymon, it is also inferior to most of OU statwise and movepool wise. Even an objective analysis doesn't give much reason to use it.

Tleilax: How is Hitmontop outclassed? I really don't know how you can mess up the best/2nd best Tyranitar counter in the game, or find an ample opportunity to spin away rocks.

Because Rapid Spinning in and of itself is an inferior strategy in d/p.

Also, Hitmontop is outclassed as a Fighting-type (Heracross, Lucario), as a Tyranitar counter (Hippowdon, Machamp, Scizor) and as a Rapid Spinner (Forretress). Most people prefer pokemon that don't require other pokemon before you can use it.

I don't see this discussion going anywhere and I am just going to stop here. Calling me ignorant for actually testing a pokemon is ridiculous, and I really had higher expectations of fellow smogoners. Again, whether you regard it or not, I have used Moltres successfully and will continue to do so, no matter how hard you try and argue. Why bother arguing with me anyways? Do you feel you must enlighten every single person and force them to use standards, even though many UU pokemon, specifically Moltres, can function in OU viably?

Yeah I get what youre saying. People are being unnecessarily harsh on Moltres, but the fact still remains that it *is* outclassed in OU and that 4x SR weak *will* bite you more often than not. It is a useful pokemon, but my experience with it is really limited. If Moltres didn't get Roost, it wouldn't even be functional in UU imo. There's no need to throw a hissy fit, Smogon is a competitive community and you should expect that we would only want to use the best Pokemon in each tier.

 

[Tleilax]

Although I agree with practically everything you said about Moltres, I beleive Hitmontop isn't such a useless pokemon as you stated.
Yes, Machamp is generally more useful due to higher attack and no guard, but Hitmontop has intimidate, mach punch and rapid spid which make it a good support pokemon and Tyranitar counter as well. And it has stone edge to combat Salamence\Gyarados switches in (though it needs some attack EVs to damage them seriously).
I've seen Hitmontop serving an useful role on stalling hail based teams, providing useful resistances (mainly rock) and the ability to spin away SR.
However, as you already stated some posts ago, Moltres requires too much support to work effectively, and Zapdos does better almost everything Moltres does.

Yeah, I got a bit worked up there and used a bit too much hyperbole. Hitmontop has it's uses, but in general I feel that it is outclassed. I still maintain that the Foresight Hitmontop is a waste of space, though, in particular the Foresight/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Close Combat set he's been hailing in this thread. He has roles he can fill, but in general if I want a bulky fighting type I can go with Hariyama, and for countering Tyranitar and other threats I can go to Machamp. Both of these can counter many threats, more than what Hitmontop can usually achieve, even if the Intimidate is nice.

Do you people hear yourselves? All of this discussion is pure theorymon, and you haven't even tried this crap. Okay, so you switch out your Tyranitar and send in Gyarados as I Rapid Spin? I can simply switch to my Vaporeon, and you must now switch out, taking another 25%(because most of you, lol, think Rapid Spin is bad/unreliable).

Yes, I understand that Zapdos is useful, however there is no ignoring the fact that Moltres can counter Infernape, Heatran, Scizor, and Lucario when SR isn't up-how is that outclassed. Again, the ONLY way Moltres is outclassed is by Zapdos is the larger Stealth Rock weakness.

Don't try to accuse me of throwing around self-righteously declared facts, the majority of the people arguing against Moltres are using simple theorymon.

Tleilax: How is Hitmontop outclassed? I really don't know how you can mess up the best/2nd best Tyranitar counter in the game, or find an ample opportunity to spin away rocks.

I don't see this discussion going anywhere and I am just going to stop here. Calling me ignorant for actually testing a pokemon is ridiculous, and I really had higher expectations of fellow smogoners. Again, whether you regard it or not, I have used Moltres successfully and will continue to do so, no matter how hard you try and argue. Why bother arguing with me anyways? Do you feel you must enlighten every single person and force them to use standards, even though many UU pokemon, specifically Moltres, can function in OU viably?

Are you seriously accusing us of theorymon? I've already provided calculations on Heatran damage to negate your point, and given plenty of thought-out explanations as to why Moltres gets the negative attention it does. The defensive stats of Zapdos and Moltres are quite similar, so it's not hard to deduce how it can take hits. So it comes down to typing, where it fails in comparison to Zapdos. You are using much more theorymon than us by assuming they can't set up on your spinning, or that you will always be able to get them off the field regardless of what happens in the match. You aren't even providing basic calculations to back yourself. So far only we've done that.

You have not done anything to support your points besides calling us ignorant. Besides the obvious pot and kettle dilemma, you are not giving us any reason to give you the benefit of the doubt. As I've said time and time again, give us some damage calculations or war stories. We are quite aware of how Moltres functions in OU, and hence comes our trepidation. I'm getting tired of repeating myself while you cover your ears and stamp your feet like a petulant child.

To claim Hitmontop is the best Tyranitar counter in the game is quite a reach. Almost any Fighting type can force it out, or anything known to carry Fighting type attacks. Intimidate is only useful if they're not going to switch out anyway. If it's anything but a Dragon Dancer they wouldn't stay in whether you have Intimidate or not, and repeatedly switching into Tyranitar's attacks is going to take it's toll fast since Hitmontop has zero recovery and Sandstream negates lefties. Hitmontop has merits, but is not some amazing god of a utility spinner. If I want a spinner I will run Starmie, who could Recover, shrug off status, and chase out many top OU threats rather than just Tyranitar and Blissey depending on it's moveset.

As for saying we are biased against people not using the norm, I can honestly say I laughed. Very hard. This is such a strawman I'm not even going to address it further.

Grow up, and learn to debate without throwing a temper tantrum. I relish these threads, because even if I don't agree with the assertions of those supporting the Pokemon I can learn a lot about competetive battling and gain insight into the community. Here there is none of that, because you don't know how to argue. Learn to keep a cool head and not get so defensive, then maybe you can try again without all of this hostility.

 

[blasphemy1]

Wait, you are getting mad at other people for theorymonning but then you go and propose an equally theorymon-based situation to defend yourself?

That is my point, in order to argue that Moltres is useful, I must resort to theorymon, simply because people aren't going to "waste" their time testing.

It is outclassed because Zapdos doesn't need the support of its teammates to put up a fight. Moltres can counter those things, on paper, but in reality it will be operating at 50% HP more often than not. You send Moltres in to counter Scizor, then take 50% from SR as they U-turn to a Salamence or something...now you have a dead Moltres. Rapid Spinning is much more difficult to pull off than Stealth Rock, so in real-life situations you can't just magically assume that it's gone.

By the time Scizor begins to scout my team, Stealth Rock is typically gone, and here's why:

The rest of my team doesn't allow Scizor to switch in very much, if at all. Even Vaporeon can 2HKO with Surf, and use Protect to scout for U-Turns.

And the people arguing against Moltres aren't just using theorymon, it is also inferior to most of OU statwise and movepool wise. Even an objective analysis doesn't give much reason to use it.

How is it inferior? I love how all of the pro-Zapdos arguers think they can have Thunderbolt / Roost / Substitute / Toxic / Heat Wave all on one set. When you opt to run SubRoost, you lose the ability to OHKO Scizor, where Moltres succeeds. When you opt to OHKO Scizor, you are instantly outstalled by bulky grounds, and anything relatively defensive that resists your STAB(shit, I outstall Zapdos w/Heat Wave with my Torterra).

Because Rapid Spinning in and of itself is an inferior strategy in d/p.

Relative to? RSE/FRLG? Obviously, this simply isn't the case. Not only have new items been created for special based spinners to beat the most common anti-spinner(Choice Specs/Rotom-A, respectively) but the physical spinners(Forretress, Donphan) received dark moves to 2HKO Rotom-A, who does not have recovery. Combine this with the fact that Dusclops used to be able to beat every single spinner except CB Donphan, and you are stating a fallacy.

Also, Hitmontop is outclassed as a Fighting-type (Heracross, Lucario), as a Tyranitar counter (Hippowdon, Machamp, Scizor) and as a Rapid Spinner (Forretress). Most people prefer pokemon that don't require other pokemon before you can use it.

I have to disagree with this statement. First off, Hitmontop is a better Tyranitar counter than all three of the stated pokemon. Hippowdon can be 2HKOed by Aqua Tail, and many DD Tyranitar(the only kind Scizor can "counter") have a Babiri Berry and Fire Punch. Machamp is outclassed since it doesn't have Intimidate. As an offensive fighting type, I haven't tried it, but I can guarantee you it isn't 100% outclassed by Heracross(come on, this guy's got no shot in OU with Zapdos, Gyarados, Gliscor, Rotom-A). Atleast Hitmontop has Sucker Punch to work with, along with priority.

As a spinner, Forretress isn't clearly superior to Hitmontop. I know, you don't think it is "viable", but I will say it anyways-he doesn't have Foresight. He also doesn't have the ability to 2HKO Rotom-A, and he is typically used on stall teams that need a spiker, so he will almost never have a chance to spin/set up spikes, depending on which the user picks. As for Hitmontop, he has two things to do-spin and counter fighting weak shit, but he does the latter by simply switching in, unlike Forretress who must do all of that in battle.

Yeah I get what youre saying. People are being unnecessarily harsh on Moltres, but the fact still remains that it *is* outclassed in OU and that 4x SR weak *will* bite you more often than not. It is a useful pokemon, but my experience with it is really limited. If Moltres didn't get Roost, it wouldn't even be functional in UU imo.

I can see what you are saying, I just have a biased, which although may be despised, I see no counter-arguments as to why Moltres isn't viable, whereas I have tested Moltres and used him well(the biased). Obviously, Moltres simply wouldn't function anywhere without Roost, maybe NU, but that is pushing it.

 

[Objection]

Because Rapid Spinning in and of itself is an inferior strategy in d/p.

Then you would surely agree that using pokemon that are weak to SR (whether 2x or 4x) is inferior to using a team of pokemon that (almost) all resist SR, because how can a team with any SR weak pokemon work without Rapid Spin? It might not be a guaranteed success, but it's not something that fails almost every time. Is the concept of a ghostless team a foreign one to you? Besides, even if the team does have a ghost, there are ways of dealing with said ghost not named Foresight Hitmontop.

Still, if the idea of supporting a pokemon with a move that isn't guaranteed to work does not appeal to you (and Rapid Spin is not the only example of such a move) and you would rather rely on almost completely unsupported sweeps or stall, then there is no way of convincing you to use Moltres.

 

[Pyromanic]

Then you would surely agree that using pokemon that are weak to SR (whether 2x or 4x) is inferior to using a team of pokemon that (almost) all resist SR, because how can a team with any SR weak pokemon work without Rapid Spin? It might not be a guaranteed success, but it's not something that fails almost every time. Is the concept of a ghostless team a foreign one to you? Besides, even if the team does have a ghost, there are ways of dealing with said ghost not named Foresight Hitmontop.

Still, if the idea of supporting a pokemon with a move that isn't guaranteed to work does not appeal to you (and Rapid Spin is not the only example of such a move) and you would rather rely on almost completely unsupported sweeps or stall, then there is no way of convincing you to use Moltres.

I use a team 3 SR weak, and without rapid spin.

 

[B-Lulz]

Moltres is useful, just in the way that some other 'top' UU Pokemon can be, in a quite unlikely situation, with Moltres needing no SR on the field. It is totally and utterly crippled by SR, even if you bring it in on something it can roost up on, something is going to come in and 2HKO it right away. It's a waste of a teamslot compared to something tried and tested like Zapdos, which can do the job better even without SR being a factor.

 

[MetaNite]

I thought this would have died when I returned.

Here's some advice:

1. Don't base your team around Moltres. Add Moltres based around your team. Let's say you are making some kind of stall team. You've got Forretress for your entry hazards and your main physical wall and you've got a Blissey (as all stall teams should have). Well, you've already got a spinner, why not put in Moltres to counter Scizor, who sets up easily on Blissey and Forretress? Moltres can also counter your Lucario weakness (unless Forry has EQ), aswell beat Mixape.

Example:
- Here comes in Forretress on that 'insert physical Choiced Ground, Fighting, Bug, Dark attack'.
- Switched in Infernape. Forretress used Rapid Spin. Forretress blew away the spikes!
- Switched in Moltres. Infernape used Fire Blast, its not very effective. Moltres lost 34% of its health!

Was getting rid of those spikes really all that difficult? Zapdos probably would have been 2HKOed by Fire Blast, or by HP Ice.

2. Moltres and Zapdos will often serve different purposes, don't get them confused. Both have their pros and cons.

Moltres Pros:
- More reliable counter to Lucario and Infernape, assuming Stealth Rock is absent
- Better Jirachi, Heatran, and Bronzong counter, if you can avoid Trick and Explosion

Moltres Cons:
- Walled by Water-types
- x4 weak to Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp to burn switch-ins
--------------------------------------

Zapdos Pros:
- Gyarados counter
- Decent check against bulky Water-types
- Thunder Wave to paralyze switch-ins

Zapdos Cons:
- I honestly can't think of any major cons. Electric and Fire has great type coverage. I suppose that's one of Zapdos' pros.

Again, assuming Stealth Rock is absent, it comes down to if you want a good counter against a variety of threats, or if you require a more specific counter. Once more, if you already have someone to remove Stealth Rock.

3. Don't use Hitmontop for Rapid Spin in OU. I don't understand this, nor the advantage of 'Foresight'. I've used Hitmontop in OU, TechniTop is a great finisher and can beat many frail sweeper. However, it has no real advantages over many other Rapid Spinners. Sure, it is a great Tyranitar counter, but so is Donphan who also has more attack, as well as the less reliable Tyranitar counter, Forretress. But you guys shouldn't act like it is set up fodder, saying stuff like 'Gyarados sets up 2 DD and owns!' That is not true. For one thing, it would come in on Rapid Spin. Yes, you'd have to switch to a counter, but that's no different from Pokemon like Lucario or Infernape.

4. Take full advantage of Moltres in UU. In this environment, Moltres has the potential to wreck, especially since Stealth Rock isn't a "requirement" for a lead, as it seems. With Sandstorm not being nearly as omnipresent, Moltres is a great Pokemon on Sunny Day teams, able to even batter Chansey into the dust. Not to mention, there's no Heatran to ruin your Fire / Grass combo.

This thread was meant to recognize Moltres apart from Zapdos, as well as lead away from offensive sets in standard. Not to discuss the usefulness or useless-ness of Rapid Spin, or other UU Pokemon such as Raikou and Hitmontop.

 

[blasphemy1]

MetaNite, I agree, for the most part, with your points. However, when trying to fit Moltres into a balanced team, rather than stall, it is easier and more efficient to use Hitmontop instead of Moltres. I don't base my team around Moltres, I just have Hitmontop there, and it works great. It does seem like Moltres would work better in stall, but then again, Rotom-A already fucks stall teams with a move called Trick, so pulling off a Rapid Spin with Forretress seems unlikely, where Hitmontop can still get them away.

EDIT: Just noticed this, but switching Forretress into ANY choiced ground, fighting, rock, etc. move is a very bad idea. That low HP doesn't help when you are taking neutral attacks, and most, if not all CBers in OU, will 2HKO with a neutral attack provided they get STAB on it.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Then you would surely agree that using pokemon that are weak to SR (whether 2x or 4x) is inferior to using a team of pokemon that (almost) all resist SR, because how can a team with any SR weak pokemon work without Rapid Spin? It might not be a guaranteed success, but it's not something that fails almost every time. Is the concept of a ghostless team a foreign one to you? Besides, even if the team does have a ghost, there are ways of dealing with said ghost not named Foresight Hitmontop.

Still, if the idea of supporting a pokemon with a move that isn't guaranteed to work does not appeal to you (and Rapid Spin is not the only example of such a move) and you would rather rely on almost completely unsupported sweeps or stall, then there is no way of convincing you to use Moltres.

Assuming that you could make an SR resistant team that could also deal with Fighting and Ground types, yes, it is pretty much superior in every case.

You hit the nail on the head, though. Most people (judging by usage stats) do not like using pokemon that practically require supporting pokemon to succeed. Do you think Walrein would ever be used without Abomasnow? How is that helping Walrein's tiering position? There are more examples, but generally using pokemon that can support themselves is better in the long run.

That is my point, in order to argue that Moltres is useful, I must resort to theorymon, simply because people aren't going to "waste" their time testing.

You dont HAVE to resort to theorymon. You know, there are other ways of proving that things work. Namely, why don't you post logs of Moltres working? Why don't you post a team you made where Moltres shines (according to your theorymon, said Moltres team already has Moltres, Rapid Spin/Foresight Hitmontop and Protect Vaporeon)?

Basically, this thread is just depressing me over and over. The OP just lists stats and expects that people will suddenly flock to using Moltres? Give me a break. Why don't you just show us that it works instead of trying to convince us with theorymon?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Assuming that you could make an SR resistant team that could also deal with Fighting and Ground types, yes, it is pretty much superior in every case.

You hit the nail on the head, though. Most people (judging by usage stats) do not like using pokemon that practically require supporting pokemon to succeed. Do you think Walrein would ever be used without Abomasnow? How is that helping Walrein's tiering position? There are more examples, but generally using pokemon that can support themselves is better in the long run.



You dont HAVE to resort to theorymon. You know, there are other ways of proving that things work. Namely, why don't you post logs of Moltres working? Why don't you post a team you made where Moltres shines (according to your theorymon, said Moltres team already has Moltres, Rapid Spin/Foresight Hitmontop and Protect Vaporeon)?

Basically, this thread is just depressing me over and over. The OP just lists stats and expects that people will suddenly flock to using Moltres? Give me a break. Why don't you just show us that it works instead of trying to convince us with theorymon?

Somehow JR, I don't think either of those guys are going to listen to your good reason. :/

 

[MetaNite]

I listen!

I don't want people to flock to using Moltres, I want people to try Moltres before judging him. Prejudice! Down with theorymon, up with logs. Its not theory if you back it up with fact, for instance, I've used Moltres many times so I know what I'm talking about. As of now, I don't have many logs since well I don't save every single battle. Here's a few though that show advantage over Zapdos.

Example #1

Okay, the scenario is my foe has a burnt Swampert in play at low health. He just wants to rack up as much Stealth Rock damage as he can before biting the dust.

MetaNite Frozen switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
Starmie used Rapid Spin.
Starmie blew away the pointed stones!
A critical hit!
SWAMP lost 5% of its health.
SWAMP used Roar.
MetaNite Frozen switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
SWAMP is pelted by hail!
SWAMP lost 6% of its health.
rafael viana's SWAMP fainted.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in ATENZA (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
ATENZA's intimidate cut Moltres's attack!
Pointed stones dug into ATENZA.
ATENZA lost 25% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
ATENZA used Draco Meteor.
Swampert lost 81% of its health.
ATENZA's special attack was harshly lowered.
ATENZA lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
ATENZA is pelted by hail!
ATENZA lost 6% of its health.
Swampert is pelted by hail!
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
ATENZA used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 9% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen's Swampert fainted.
ATENZA lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
ATENZA is pelted by hail!
ATENZA lost 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
rafael viana switched in CRYSTAL (lvl 100 Suicune).
CRYSTAL is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into CRYSTAL.
CRYSTAL lost 12% of its health.
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
CRYSTAL lost 17% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
CRYSTAL is pelted by hail!
CRYSTAL lost 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
CRYSTAL used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 18% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Starmie is pelted by hail!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
CRYSTAL is pelted by hail!
CRYSTAL lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
---
Starmie used Recover.
Starmie restored 43% of its health.
CRYSTAL used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 19% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Starmie is pelted by hail!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
CRYSTAL is pelted by hail!
CRYSTAL lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
---
Starmie used Recover.
Starmie restored 19% of its health.
CRYSTAL used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 19% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Starmie is pelted by hail!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
CRYSTAL is pelted by hail!
CRYSTAL lost 3% of its health.
rafael viana's CRYSTAL fainted.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in TOASTER (lvl 100 Rotom-h).
Pointed stones dug into TOASTER.
TOASTER lost 12% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
TOASTER used Will-o-wisp.
Mamoswine was burned!
The hail continues to fall.
TOASTER is pelted by hail!
TOASTER lost 6% of its health.
Mamoswine was hurt by its burn!
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.
TOASTER's leftovers restored its health a little!
TOASTER restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in VULCAN (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into VULCAN.
VULCAN lost 12% of its health.
Mamoswine used Blizzard.
It's not very effective...
VULCAN lost 9% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
VULCAN is pelted by hail!
VULCAN lost 6% of its health.
Mamoswine was hurt by its burn!
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
VULCAN used Earth Power.
Starmie lost 44% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
VULCAN is pelted by hail!
VULCAN lost 6% of its health.
Starmie is pelted by hail!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
---
VULCAN used Earth Power.
Starmie lost 37% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen's Starmie fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
VULCAN is pelted by hail!
VULCAN lost 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
rafael viana switched in ATENZA (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
ATENZA's intimidate cut Moltres's attack!
Pointed stones dug into ATENZA.
ATENZA lost 25% of its health.
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The hail continues to fall.
ATENZA is pelted by hail!
ATENZA lost 6% of its health.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
ATENZA used Draco Meteor.
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
ATENZA's special attack was harshly lowered.
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The hail continues to fall.
ATENZA is pelted by hail!
ATENZA lost 6% of its health.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
ATENZA used Outrage.
ATENZA went on a rampage!
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Roost.
Moltres restored 50% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
ATENZA is pelted by hail!
ATENZA lost 6% of its health.
rafael viana's ATENZA fainted.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in VULCAN (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into VULCAN.
VULCAN lost 12% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen: I have big boulders and I cannot lie
MetaNite Frozen: other ones I can't deny
MetaNite Frozen switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
VULCAN used Dragon Pulse.
Mamoswine lost 33% of its health.
MetaNite Frozen's Mamoswine fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
VULCAN is pelted by hail!
VULCAN lost 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
rafael viana switched in TOASTER (lvl 100 Rotom-h).
Pointed stones dug into TOASTER.
TOASTER lost 12% of its health.
Moltres used Flamethrower.
TOASTER lost 42% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
TOASTER is pelted by hail!
TOASTER lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
TOASTER's leftovers restored its health a little!
TOASTER restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
TOASTER used Rest.
TOASTER fell asleep!
TOASTER restored 67% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
TOASTER is pelted by hail!
TOASTER lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
TOASTER's leftovers restored its health a little!
TOASTER restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Flamethrower.
TOASTER lost 40% of its health.
TOASTER is fast asleep!
TOASTER used Sleep Talk.
TOASTER used Rest.
But it failed!
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
TOASTER is pelted by hail!
TOASTER lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
TOASTER's leftovers restored its health a little!
TOASTER restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite Frozen: dang
Moltres used Flamethrower.
TOASTER lost 40% of its health.
TOASTER is fast asleep!
TOASTER used Sleep Talk.
TOASTER used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
TOASTER is pelted by hail!
TOASTER lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
TOASTER's leftovers restored its health a little!
TOASTER restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Flamethrower.
TOASTER lost 20% of its health.
rafael viana's TOASTER fainted.
The hail continues to fall.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in VULCAN (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into VULCAN.
VULCAN lost 12% of its health.
VULCAN used Earth Power.
It doesn't affect Moltres...
Moltres used Substitute.
But it failed!
The hail continues to fall.
VULCAN is pelted by hail!
VULCAN lost 6% of its health.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana switched in MUSHROOM (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Pointed stones dug into MUSHROOM.
MUSHROOM lost 6% of its health.
Moltres used Roost.
Moltres restored 25% of its health.
The hail continues to fall.
MUSHROOM is pelted by hail!
MUSHROOM lost 6% of its health.
Moltres is pelted by hail!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
MUSHROOM's Poison Heal restored health!
MUSHROOM restored 12% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
rafael viana has left the room.
MetaNite Frozen wins!
This log was formatted using Warmachine Version 1.0

As you can see, Moltres shows advantage over Zapdos by doing 40%~ to Rotom-A with Flamethrower. Zapdos' Heat Wave doesn't do nearly as much, and Thunderbolt is resisted. This allows Moltres to combat even the common RestTalk Rotom-A. This is just one scenario that for some reason I forgot to mention.

Example #2

I wanted to get some logs for Moltres now that j7r has said that I'm basing everything on theory. This was the first battle where I wanted to get some Moltres logs, not so long ago.

MetaNite's moves will look like this.
zir's moves will look like this.
other text will look like this.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Soul Dew Clause
MetaNite sent out Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
zir sent out Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Gliscor used Taunt.
Swampert fell for the taunt!
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Swampert can't use Stealth Rock after the taunt!
---
MetaNite switched in Abomasnow (lvl 100 Abomasnow ?).
Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
Hail began to fall!
zir switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
The hail continues to fall.
Celebi is pelted by hail!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Abomasnow used Swords Dance.
Abomasnow's attack was sharply raised.
The hail continues to fall.
Celebi is pelted by hail!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
The hail stopped.
A sandstorm brewed!
Abomasnow used Ice Shard.
Tyranitar lost 45% of its health.
Abomasnow lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Abomasnow is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Abomasnow lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Fire Punch.
It's super effective!
Abomasnow lost 84% of its health.
MetaNite's Abomasnow fainted.
Tyranitar lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
MetaNite switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Tarquinmacdonald has entered the room.
zir switched in Tar (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Tar...
The sandstorm rages.
---
Mamoswine used Blizzard.
A critical hit!
Tar lost 100% of its health.
zir's Tar fainted.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
zir switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Tarquinmacdonald has left the room.
MetaNite switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
Mamoswine used Superpower.
It's not very effective...
Moltres lost 24% of its health.
Mamoswine's attack was lowered.
Mamoswine's defence was lowered.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Moltres used Toxic.
Blissey was badly poisoned!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Roost.
Moltres restored 49% of its health.
Blissey used Seismic Toss.
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
zir switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Toxic.
Gliscor was badly poisoned!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's not very effective...
Swampert lost 9% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
zir switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
Celebi used Leech Seed.
But it failed!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Moltres used Roost.
Moltres restored 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Toxic.
Tyranitar was badly poisoned!
Tyranitar used Dragon Dance.
Tyranitar's attack was raised.
Tyranitar's speed was raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
Tyranitar lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
Tyranitar lost 12% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
Tyranitar lost 18% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
Tyranitar lost 8% of its health.
zir's Tyranitar fainted.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Roost.
Moltres restored 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's not very effective...
Swampert lost 9% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Swampert used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Celebi lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Rotom-f (lvl 100 Rotom-f).
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Rotom-f was seeded!
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-f is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-f lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Rotom-f's health was sapped by leech seed!
Rotom-f lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 7% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Rotom-f used Trick.
Rotom-f obtained Leftovers!
Blissey obtained Choice Scarf!
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-f is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-f lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Rotom-f's health was sapped by leech seed!
Rotom-f lost 12% of its health.
Blissey regained health!
Blissey restored 5% of its health.
Rotom-f's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-f restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
zir switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
The sandstorm rages.
---
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 51% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
Swampert used Blizzard.
Swampert's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
ttotbo has entered the room.
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 52% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
Swampert used Surf.
It's super effective!
Mamoswine lost 70% of its health.
zir's Mamoswine fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Swampert was seeded!
Swampert used Blizzard.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 35% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
Swampert's health was sapped by leech seed!
Swampert lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 12% of its health.
---
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 25% of its health.
Swampert used Blizzard.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 32% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
Swampert's health was sapped by leech seed!
Swampert lost 9% of its health.
MetaNite's Swampert fainted.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 9% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
zir switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Taunt.
Moltres fell for the taunt!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres can't use Substitute after the taunt!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
Moltres's substitute faded!
Moltres used Flamethrower.
A critical hit!
Gliscor lost 75% of its health.
zir's Gliscor fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
---
zir switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
MetaNite switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Blissey used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
Mamoswine lost 55% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
---
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
A critical hit!
Blissey lost 73% of its health.
zir's Blissey fainted.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
zir switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 49% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 48% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 10% of its health.
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 47% of its health.
Mamoswine lost 5% of its health.
MetaNite's Mamoswine fainted.
Celebi used Recover.
Celebi restored 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
Moltres used Substitute.
Moltres lost 25% of its health.
Moltres made a substitute!
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Moltres used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 51% of its health.
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Moltres!
The sandstorm rages.
Moltres is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Moltres lost 6% of its health.
Celebi is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
Moltres's leftovers restored its health a little!
Moltres restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
MetaNite: tell your friends
Moltres used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 32% of its health.
zir's Celebi fainted.
MetaNite wins!
MetaNite: gg
ttotbo: gg
zir: gg
This log was formatted using Warmachine Version 1.0

That was a whole log because Moltres pretty much owned throughout the entire thing. I don't care if Zapdos could have done the same thing, Moltres completely destroyed the foe. Toxic Stall is viable. I did get some hax, and we didn't play perfectly. But saying that there shouldn't have been hax and both of us should have played perfectly is the theorymon.

 

[Crystal]

Damn! Haha. I've been waiting for a thread like this to come around and ruin the 'unpleasant surprise' of facing a Toxic Stalling Moltres.

I've been using it for quite some time in a defensive core with Donphan and Vaporeon, and it is indeed a mindbendingly diffucult Pokemon to down with the proper support. (I.E Water/Electric/Rock resistance and Rapid Spin).

Personally, I love Flamethrower/HiddenPower[Ground]/Will-O-Wisp/Roost, there's not much else that has so much fun against non-Stone Edge (or choiced) Infernape, Heatran, Heracross, Lucario, Mamoswine, Weavile, Scizor, Metagross, Jirachi, Skarmory, Foretress, Bronzong, Breloom, etc; as long as you can avoid a sleep on the latter two.

It really is a great Pokemon, I prefer the [frequently arising] situations where my opponent underestimates Moltres and is surprised to see it easily stall and destroy some of their most potent sweepers, but I'll definitely recommend it to anyone.

And for those who use Moltres offensively (i.e Scarf and Specs), you're doin' it wrong!

 

[Darkmalice]

I have a question MetaNite. Your two logs involve you using a Hail team (or at least you use Abomasnow). Why is Moltres being used on a Hail team? Or more specifically, what advantage does Moltres gain on a Hail team that it doesn't gain on any other team or even a Sandstorm team?