Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)

[JES]

I must be the only one then whose never used Forretress in any fashion whatsoever, competitively or not. Oh, I made one in Pokedit to try out, but I've never bred one.

But when I raised a Ferroseed in Y, I wondered how I could've gotten along without one in Black. Once you can overlook the 4x weakness (which is something I usually try to avoid like the plague, or try to make up with redundant type counter-balances), Ferrothorn is easily one of the best Grass types out there. Leftovers+Iron Barbs+Leech Seed=<3

 

[Numera]

Don't use this:

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell


Why it's bad:

Oh Umbreon. I don't get why the low ladder are so obsessed with you. Umbreon, on paper, looks like an okay cleric; it resists Knock Off, it's ability is pretty sweet, it's bulky, etc. But even then, problems arise. In this generation, it's defensive typing is awful; fighting types like Keldeo are everywhere and the Fairy type is omnipresent nowadays, making Umbreon lose effectiveness completely. On top of that, Umbreon actually has what I deem 4MSS; it'd LOVE toxic, but without Foul Play it's complete set up fodder for a large number of Pokemon. However, the main problem with Umbreon comes from how outclassed it is.

Instead, use this:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Why it's better:

"But it's less bulky!" I hear you cry. Regardless, Clefable is a FAR better cleric than Umbreon could ever dream of being. It's got a better defensive typing, a good STAB, the ability to beat Mega Sableye 1v1 and most importantly, Unaware or Magic Guard. Both of these are absolutely fantastic abilities for a Cleric to have; the former makes Clefable unable to be set up on; now it's never set up fodder, and can stop a number set up sweepers in the tier from sweeping a stall team simply by slapping Clefable on. The latter helps in match-ups vs other stall teams, making rocks, spikes, leech seed, toxic etc do absolutely no damage to you, which is a very nice trait in match ups like this as it prevents Clefable being worn down by anything other than direct damage. But this isn't your only option over Umbreon...


OR

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
So you wanted a Cleric that didn't auto-lose to Landorus lacking the rare Sludge Wave, and took less from Scarf Keldeo? Here's your answer. Sylveon is a usable cleric as well: it's very similar to Clefable, with 2 major turning points, the first of which I've already said. Sylveon is far superior to Umbreon due to it's massive offensive presence. Hyper Voice from this thing really hurts, giving it a large amount of offensive presence to play with, and making it a better fit for teams that lack this. Another reason Sylveon outclasses Umbreon is because it has the option to run a fully specially defensive spread, which beats Specs Keldeo 1v1 and thus is a reliable switchin. All in all, it's yet another Cleric that outclassed Umbreon in both use as a Cleric and cuteness, showing us why we should never use it.

Another one of these posts on Espeon coming soon!

 

[Karxrida]

Don't use this:

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell


Why it's bad:

Oh Umbreon. I don't get why the low ladder are so obsessed with you. Umbreon, on paper, looks like an okay cleric; it resists Knock Off, it's ability is pretty sweet, it's bulky, etc. But even then, problems arise. In this generation, it's defensive typing is awful; fighting types like Keldeo are everywhere and the Fairy type is omnipresent nowadays, making Umbreon lose effectiveness completely. On top of that, Umbreon actually has what I deem 4MSS; it'd LOVE toxic, but without Foul Play it's complete set up fodder for a large number of Pokemon. However, the main problem with Umbreon comes from how outclassed it is.

Instead, use this:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Why it's better:

"But it's less bulky!" I hear you cry. Regardless, Clefable is a FAR better cleric than Umbreon could ever dream of being. It's got a better defensive typing, a good STAB, the ability to beat Mega Sableye 1v1 and most importantly, Unaware or Magic Guard. Both of these are absolutely fantastic abilities for a Cleric to have; the former makes Clefable unable to be set up on; now it's never set up fodder, and can stop a number set up sweepers in the tier from sweeping a stall team simply by slapping Clefable on. The latter helps in match-ups vs other stall teams, making rocks, spikes, leech seed, toxic etc do absolutely no damage to you, which is a very nice trait in match ups like this as it prevents Clefable being worn down by anything other than direct damage. But this isn't your only option over Umbreon...


OR

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
So you wanted a Cleric that didn't auto-lose to Landorus lacking the rare Sludge Wave, and took less from Scarf Keldeo? Here's your answer. Sylveon is a usable cleric as well: it's very similar to Clefable, with 2 major turning points, the first of which I've already said. Sylveon is far superior to Umbreon due to it's massive offensive presence. Hyper Voice from this thing really hurts, giving it a large amount of offensive presence to play with, and making it a better fit for teams that lack this. Another reason Sylveon outclasses Umbreon is because it has the option to run a fully specially defensive spread, which beats Specs Keldeo 1v1. All in all, it's yet another Cleric that outclassed Umbreon, showing us why we should never use it.

Also mention both Fairies are cuter.

 

[Kurona]

Don't use this:

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell


Why it's bad:

Oh Umbreon. I don't get why the low ladder are so obsessed with you. Umbreon, on paper, looks like an okay cleric; it resists Knock Off, it's ability is pretty sweet, it's bulky, etc. But even then, problems arise. In this generation, it's defensive typing is awful; fighting types like Keldeo are everywhere and the Fairy type is omnipresent nowadays, making Umbreon lose effectiveness completely. On top of that, Umbreon actually has what I deem 4MSS; it'd LOVE toxic, but without Foul Play it's complete set up fodder for a large number of Pokemon. However, the main problem with Umbreon comes from how outclassed it is.

Instead, use this:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Why it's better:

"But it's less bulky!" I hear you cry. Regardless, Clefable is a FAR better cleric than Umbreon could ever dream of being. It's got a better defensive typing, a good STAB, the ability to beat Mega Sableye 1v1 and most importantly, Unaware or Magic Guard. Both of these are absolutely fantastic abilities for a Cleric to have; the former makes Clefable unable to be set up on; now it's never set up fodder, and can stop a number set up sweepers in the tier from sweeping a stall team simply by slapping Clefable on. The latter helps in match-ups vs other stall teams, making rocks, spikes, leech seed, toxic etc do absolutely no damage to you, which is a very nice trait in match ups like this as it prevents Clefable being worn down by anything other than direct damage. But this isn't your only option over Umbreon...


OR

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
So you wanted a Cleric that didn't auto-lose to Landorus lacking the rare Sludge Wave, and took less from Scarf Keldeo? Here's your answer. Sylveon is a usable cleric as well: it's very similar to Clefable, with 2 major turning points, the first of which I've already said. Sylveon is far superior to Umbreon due to it's massive offensive presence. Hyper Voice from this thing really hurts, giving it a large amount of offensive presence to play with, and making it a better fit for teams that lack this. Another reason Sylveon outclasses Umbreon is because it has the option to run a fully specially defensive spread, which beats Specs Keldeo 1v1. All in all, it's yet another Cleric that outclassed Umbreon in both use as a Cleric and cuteness, showing us why we should never use it.

Another one of these posts on Espeon coming soon!

Should also do something similar on Mega Audino being outclassed by Clefeable/Sylveon imo.

 

[BlueLobster]

Without going along with the established format as it's pointless in this case, I'd like to mention you should always use a min speed Ferrothorn (preferably 0 speed IVs and a negative nature even when you're not running Gyro Ball) to give Trick Room teams a harder time and because above all else it really doesn't need the speed.

Actually, if not running Gyro Ball I would run neutral nature and 2 speed IVs to outspeed Shuckle. You may think it's useless as it can't do much to Shuckle, but outspeeding it can in fact make the difference of stopping it getting rocks/webs up V a Shuckle with low health left, which can be vital for team members. Of course it will rarely make a difference, but I'd rather be over prepared than under prepared.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Actually, if not running Gyro Ball I would run neutral nature and 2 speed IVs to outspeed Shuckle. You may think it's useless as it can't do much to Shuckle, but outspeeding it can in fact make the difference of stopping it getting rocks/webs up V a Shuckle with low health left, which can be vital for team members. Of course it will rarely make a difference, but I'd rather be over prepared than under prepared.

Actually, if you're not running gyro ball I'd actually run a 31 speed IV and 4 speed EVs, because there have been so many times when my opponents mega Sableye is at like 10-15% and losing a speed tie with it versus ferrothorn can really suck, so being able to pick it off before it recovers can be really nice. Idk, this may be crazy or something but I think it makes sense.

 

[JES]

But Uproar locks you in. Not good when you need to use Roost. I think I'd prefer Hyper Voice or the STAB Dazzling Gleam, or Moonblast, which I think Altaria can learn, but my memory is foggy.

 

[MQJinx]

Doing this because people kept bringing this up in the viability rankings even though it's completely outclassed:

Don't use this:

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

Why it's bad:

Milotic may seem appealing as a bulky Water-type with reliable recovery, however, it's just outclassed at its job. Competitive Milotic isn't good either; it's too slow to take advantage of the boosts from Competitive to sweep. Gyarados and Suicune are better at tanking hits while dealing damage (and CroCune is a better bulky booster), Empoleon has access to Stealth Rock, Defog and Roar, and Bisharp, Thundurus, and even Serperior do a better job at discouraging Defog. Keldeo makes for a better sweeper with its Calm Mind set with is capability to force switches, which it can take advantage of with Substitute. Manaphy has Tail Glow to sweep teams and even break through threats, especially in the rain. However, the mon that hits the nail on Milotic's coffin is this:

Use this:

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic / Knock Off

Why it's good:

Alomomola has far more bulk than Milotic and access to Regenerator, allowing it to survive longer in matches. The increased physical bulk allows it to check physical attackers like Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Excadrill, Landorus-T, and Terrakion. It even has access to Knock Off to cripple any mon that switches into it and makes them easier to wear down or wall. The overall utility that Alomomola presents makes it a far better option to use on stall teams to keep walls healthy and even balanced teams to give sweepers more chances to beat down the opposing team.

 

[pretty little liAr]

Doing this because people kept bringing this up in the viability rankings even though it's completely outclassed:

Don't use this:

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

Why it's bad:

Milotic may seem appealing as a bulky Water-type with reliable recovery, however, it's just outclassed at its job. Competitive Milotic isn't good either; it's too slow to take advantage of the boosts from Competitive to sweep. Gyarados and Suicune are better at tanking hits while dealing damage, Empoleon has access to Stealth Rock, Defog and Roar, and Bisharp, Thundurus, and even Serperior do a better job at discouraging Defog. Keldeo makes for a better sweeper with its Calm Mind set with is capability to force switches, which it can take advantage of with Substitute. Manaphy has Tail Glow to sweep teams and even break through threats, especially in the rain. However, the mon that hits the nail on Milotic's coffin is this:

Use this:

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic / Knock Off

Why it's good:

Alomomola has far more bulk than Milotic and access to Regenerator, allowing it to survive longer in matches. The increased physical bulk allows it to check physical attackers like Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Excadrill, Landorus-T, and Terrakion. It even has access to Knock Off to cripple any mon that switches into it and makes them easier to wear down or wall. The overall utility that Alomomola presents makes it a far better option to use on stall teams to keep walls healthy and even balanced teams to give sweepers more chances to beat down the opposing team.

Please print this and send to everyone who wants this horribly outclassed poke on the viability rankings.

 

[michaeloche]

Please print this and send to everyone who wants this horribly outclassed poke on the viability rankings.

It just got blacklisted iirc.

(sorry for the one liner, there's just nothing else to say)

 

[Kurona]

May I also recommend adding a Suicune part to the don't-use-milotic thing? I remember it being compared when talking of the Competitive set and I feel it definitely deserves a mention for pulling off an offensive role in every way.

 

[JES]

Too bad you can't breed a Suicune to say, GET PERFECT IVs!!! I think that is why most people use Milotic. Or cheat. Some people just cheat.

 

[zachmac]

Too bad you can't breed a Suicune to say, GET PERFECT IVs!!! I think that is why most people use Milotic. Or cheat. Some people just cheat.

I actaully have a near-flawless bold Suicune I got through soft-resetting (31/x/31/27/29/31).

But that's a moot point, since most people here are using Pokemon Showdown anyway.

 

[JES]

Fair point.

 

[Kurona]

Please keep in-game discussion to Orange Islands and Wi-Fi. This is a purely competitive forum and in-game discussion only clutters up the thread.

 

[Timid_Metagross]

Don't use this:

Florges (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Wish


Why it's bad:

Florges is pretty bad in the ou meta, and it is outclassed as a special wall/cleric. Even though it's special defense is through the roof, it still has no fire power behind it and just doesn't get it's job done as good as other pokes in the tier. There has been discussion about this pokemon on the viability rankings, and honestly it doesn't deserve a rank due to it's competitors and can easily get destroyed by a physical move before it can do any damage. Sylveon, chansey, and clefable do it's job 10x better and all of them get access to those moves as well. Overall, you would be better off going with a pokemon that has better mixed stats(clefable), or a pokemon that can set up wishes and pass them to other pokes reliably (chansey), or just a pokemon that can hit much more harder and do the exact same task but is also WAY more versatile (sylveon).

Use this:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect


Why it's good:

Sylveon does a way better job at being a special wall than florges, because of the larger hp stat and the more attack. Even though florges has 24 more base special defense, giving up the amazing ability pixilate and also giving up about 20 hp stats, it just isn't worth it. Chansey and Clefable could also be put in this spot, but I felt specially defensive sylveon was a more direct comparison to florges. Even with barely any special attack investment, it can still pick up KO's with it's stab pixilate boosted hyper voice. Sylveon also works as a much better cleric because of the more hp, and can also pick up KO's.

 

[Karxrida]

Don't use this:

Florges (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Wish


Why it's bad:

Florges is pretty bad in the ou meta, and it is outclassed as a special wall/cleric. Even though it's special defense is through the roof, it still has no fire power behind it and just doesn't get it's job done as good as other pokes in the tier. There has been discussion about this pokemon on the viability rankings, and honestly it doesn't deserve a rank due to it's competitors and can easily get destroyed by a physical move before it can do any damage. Sylveon, chansey, and clefable do it's job 10x better and all of them get access to those moves as well. Overall, you would be better off going with a pokemon that has better mixed stats(clefable), or a pokemon that can set up wishes and pass them to other pokes reliably (chansey), or just a pokemon that can hit much more harder and do the exact same task but is also WAY more versatile (sylveon).

Use this:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect


Why it's good:

Sylveon does a way better job at being a special wall than florges, because of the larger hp stat and the more attack. Even though florges has 24 more base special defense, giving up the amazing ability pixilate and also giving up about 20 hp stats, it just isn't worth it. Chansey and Clefable could also be put in this spot, but I felt specially defensive sylveon was a more direct comparison to florges. Even with barely any special attack investment, it can still pick up KO's with it's stab pixilate boosted hyper voice. Sylveon also works as a much better cleric because of the more hp, and can also pick up KO's.

Sylveon should probably be Physically Defensive unless you're trying wall something specific that I can't think of atm.

 

[Timid_Metagross]

Sylveon should probably be Physically Defensive unless you're trying wall something specific that I can't think of atm.

you could also invest in physical defense but i just wanted to make the closest comparison to florges i could

 

[Celticpride]

Don't use this:

Florges (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Wish


Why it's bad:

Florges is pretty bad in the ou meta, and it is outclassed as a special wall/cleric. Even though it's special defense is through the roof, it still has no fire power behind it and just doesn't get it's job done as good as other pokes in the tier. There has been discussion about this pokemon on the viability rankings, and honestly it doesn't deserve a rank due to it's competitors and can easily get destroyed by a physical move before it can do any damage. Sylveon, chansey, and clefable do it's job 10x better and all of them get access to those moves as well. Overall, you would be better off going with a pokemon that has better mixed stats(clefable), or a pokemon that can set up wishes and pass them to other pokes reliably (chansey), or just a pokemon that can hit much more harder and do the exact same task but is also WAY more versatile (sylveon).

Use this:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect


Why it's good:

Sylveon does a way better job at being a special wall than florges, because of the larger hp stat and the more attack. Even though florges has 24 more base special defense, giving up the amazing ability pixilate and also giving up about 20 hp stats, it just isn't worth it. Chansey and Clefable could also be put in this spot, but I felt specially defensive sylveon was a more direct comparison to florges. Even with barely any special attack investment, it can still pick up KO's with it's stab pixilate boosted hyper voice. Sylveon also works as a much better cleric because of the more hp, and can also pick up KO's.

Uh, why would you run WishTect when Florges get Synthesis in ORAS? It doesn't seem like your entry focuses around Wish passing, more special walling.

 

[Timid_Metagross]

Uh, why would you run WishTect when Florges get Synthesis in ORAS? It doesn't seem like your entry focuses around Wish passing, more special walling.

Wish passing is a better method, since it uses self restoration while also healing other pokes. Even though it's fully invested in defensive doesn't mean it can't be a cleric.

 

[Celticpride]

Wish passing is a better method, since it uses self restoration while also healing other pokes. Even though it's fully invested in defensive doesn't mean it can't be a cleric.

I don't like the idea of using WishTect when you don't have to because it gives up free turns, and takes up two moveslots. Almost every defensive Pokemon prefers self-recovery over Wish, unless you are a dedicated cleric. Cleric Sylveon isn't even that good, it is where it is in the viability thread and related projects because of it's Specs set.

 

[Timid_Metagross]

I don't like the idea of using WishTect when you don't have to because it gives up free turns, and takes up two moveslots. Almost every defensive Pokemon prefers self-recovery over Wish, unless you are a dedicated cleric. Cleric Sylveon isn't even that good, it is where it is in the viability thread and related projects because of it's Specs set.

I mean honestly, I wanted to put the closest thing to a fairy special wall and Sylveon mimics it completely but with a lot of more pro's. You're going a bit off topic honestly, and even with the addition of synthesis Florges still isn't a good specially defensive wall due to all of the better specially defensive walls out there. Wishtect is better because tect is good to pack just to see what your opponent goes for, and wish to recover. If you wanted to go synthesis+toxic it would be fine but with the amount of politoed+swampert and the fact that florges can't stall well without wishtect, wishtect is just the better option.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

i swear to god if i see one more ninjask

(PLEASE) Don't use:

Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature

- Swords Dance / Harden
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Substitute

Use this instead:

Scolipede @ Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Swords Dance / Iron Defense
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Protect / Megahorn

There is simply no reason to use Ninjask when you have Scolipede. With its higher bulk and the threat of +2 Megahorn, as well as being able to do its job twice in a game, Ninjask can just go home. Iron Defense is also waaaaay better than Harden, if you try to baton pass defense boosts to a CM+Stored Power Espeon.

 

[Kurona]

Ninjask
- Swords Dance / Harden

... this, uh... this is a thing?

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

... this, uh... this is a thing?

Yeah, I saw it in the Swagger/BP era.