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Double Battle Metagame.
- Thread starter Go2Sleep02
- Start date
Well rules for the rest of the world have still yet to be officially finalized. However at the moment it seems many are on talks about what teams and combination can be made. I see a lot of Rain teams being spammed but with that in mind it will be rain v. rain a lot, with Kyogre and Palkia I bet most of the time. There is still other options such as trick room, sunny teams, shedinja factor, and even hail and sand could be considered. What does everyone think about Hail and Sand as possible choices for a team?
Hail would probably have to come from Abomasnow, who I see as a bit too frail for a game filled with Ubers. Sand would probably favor Tyranitar over Hippowdon; they're both weak to Water, but Tyranitar has the higher Special Defense, AND gets the 1.5x Special Defense bonus in Sand.
As for teammates, it's really hard to say. Any of the real good choices, like Dialga, share a lot of weaknesses with Tyranitar, which wouldn't normally be too much of an issue, except having two pokemon out in Doubles that are weak to Earthquake is a liability, even in this possibly Water-dominated tournament.
As for teammates, it's really hard to say. Any of the real good choices, like Dialga, share a lot of weaknesses with Tyranitar, which wouldn't normally be too much of an issue, except having two pokemon out in Doubles that are weak to Earthquake is a liability, even in this possibly Water-dominated tournament.
I feel like a helping hand using vaporeon and a surfing kyogre could be pretty effective. Discharge, or any electric type move, pretty much ruins it, though.
Rotom F (Discharge/blizzard) and (magnet rise/protect) electivire could work rotom is able to severely hurt ground types while electivire used protect (for a sand team) and magnet rise/discharge for a RD team.
Other than mamoswine, do you see any big flaws with that?
Rotom F (Discharge/blizzard) and (magnet rise/protect) electivire could work rotom is able to severely hurt ground types while electivire used protect (for a sand team) and magnet rise/discharge for a RD team.
Other than mamoswine, do you see any big flaws with that?
Lil' Nitpick, Earth Power isn't a TM, its a tutor move i believe.
Possible 2010 VGC Rules? Possible things to look out for?
Although the rules are still uncertain I wanted to take some time to have a look at possible threats with the current rules that we know of. Dialga, Garchomp, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Palkia, and Rayquaza I believe will be pretty big.
Dialga I believe will be a dark horse in this tournament. Dialga has bulk as well as power along with some useful support moves such as Thunder Wave or Trick Room. At the same time though it has a common weakness to Ground in a game where Earthquake will be spammed.
Wasn't exactly banned in VGC 2009 but I see some good use for Garchomp. Garchomp can deal some great damage with the stab on Ground and Dragon with Earthquake and Dragon Claw, however at the same time it might not survive more than two attacks from many of the other Uber Pokemon that will be present such as Palkia. I know there are more ways to use Garchomp I just haven't thought it out.
Seems predictable to pair Giratina with things such as exploders like the likes of Mewtwo or Snorlax. Those 120 base stats in both attack points as well as Giratina-O's own item to boost attacks of it's same typing can be deadly. Shadow Force can be used to some great advantage such as avoiding getting hit by Earthquake, although down side is Normal-types or Pokemon that resist Ghost switching in. Seeing as it's four Pokemon and two can only be Uber I don't see much taking Shadow Force. This is going to be pretty common with Trick Room (what isn't?).
I feel Groudon will be in the top 3 of most used Pokemon in this tournament (the other two being Kyogre and Palkia). Sun is being overlooked in my opinion and Groudon can support some nice options such as the old a Chlorophyll Pokemon or Ho-oh. Once again I see Trick Room being very common in this tournament and Groudon takes advantage of it pretty damn well.
Either Groudon is on someone's team or I don't see Ho-oh being there. Ho-oh can score some pretty quick KOs in with Sacred Fire in the sun. A nice thing about this tournament is Ho-oh doesn't need to worry much about Stealth Rock. Brave Bird and Sacred Fire alone seem to deal some heavy damage. There are also the support path with screens.
Okay I think we all know how common Kyogre will be here. The quick monster offense from Kyogre with a Choice Scarf is just scary, at the same time that will probably be very predictable. There is even the Choice Specs route and could see some wonders with Trick Room support. Kyogre doesn't have to be locked into a choice item to be successful though I am sure it could find a Calm Mind or two late game if needed. The weather support from Kyogre will base a lot of Water teams with Pokemon like Kingdra or Palkia. Kyogre in my eyes will be the most watched out for Pokemon this tournament.
Fragile defenses but some quick speed and very nice movepool. Special offense is great from Mewtwo with moves such as Thunder, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and even Psychic. More options from Mewtwo can come from Selfdestruct even if it will be predictable. Mewtwo has fragile defenses but it's speed is not a joke still, turn Mewtwo into a support Pokemon here with screens and Will-O-Wisp. Mewtwo is being pretty overlooked at the moment.
This will likely be heavily used due to Kyogre. Palkia has something from Heart Gold / Soul Silver called Hydro Pump which can be pretty useful. Aside from that there is Spacial Rend, Thunder, and etc. Palkia I believe will be all offense here and maybe the lesser choice of Substitute.
The other 3rd gen legend to complete the bunch. Rayquaza has some cool toys to play with if you can find the time. Swords Dance, Earthquake, Dragon Claw, or mix it up with a quick Draco Meteor and Extreme Speed. Negating weather effects is some nice help but I don't really see much use for Ray.
Okay these Pokemon I believe will be the combination of 2 Ubers on everyone's team. There are other Pokemon I see doing something as well: Hariyama, Kingdra, Smeargle, Snorlax, Dusknoir, Gengar, and Shedinja are some I believe to name a few.
Although the rules are still uncertain I wanted to take some time to have a look at possible threats with the current rules that we know of. Dialga, Garchomp, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Palkia, and Rayquaza I believe will be pretty big.
Dialga I believe will be a dark horse in this tournament. Dialga has bulk as well as power along with some useful support moves such as Thunder Wave or Trick Room. At the same time though it has a common weakness to Ground in a game where Earthquake will be spammed.
Wasn't exactly banned in VGC 2009 but I see some good use for Garchomp. Garchomp can deal some great damage with the stab on Ground and Dragon with Earthquake and Dragon Claw, however at the same time it might not survive more than two attacks from many of the other Uber Pokemon that will be present such as Palkia. I know there are more ways to use Garchomp I just haven't thought it out.
Seems predictable to pair Giratina with things such as exploders like the likes of Mewtwo or Snorlax. Those 120 base stats in both attack points as well as Giratina-O's own item to boost attacks of it's same typing can be deadly. Shadow Force can be used to some great advantage such as avoiding getting hit by Earthquake, although down side is Normal-types or Pokemon that resist Ghost switching in. Seeing as it's four Pokemon and two can only be Uber I don't see much taking Shadow Force. This is going to be pretty common with Trick Room (what isn't?).
I feel Groudon will be in the top 3 of most used Pokemon in this tournament (the other two being Kyogre and Palkia). Sun is being overlooked in my opinion and Groudon can support some nice options such as the old a Chlorophyll Pokemon or Ho-oh. Once again I see Trick Room being very common in this tournament and Groudon takes advantage of it pretty damn well.
Either Groudon is on someone's team or I don't see Ho-oh being there. Ho-oh can score some pretty quick KOs in with Sacred Fire in the sun. A nice thing about this tournament is Ho-oh doesn't need to worry much about Stealth Rock. Brave Bird and Sacred Fire alone seem to deal some heavy damage. There are also the support path with screens.
Okay I think we all know how common Kyogre will be here. The quick monster offense from Kyogre with a Choice Scarf is just scary, at the same time that will probably be very predictable. There is even the Choice Specs route and could see some wonders with Trick Room support. Kyogre doesn't have to be locked into a choice item to be successful though I am sure it could find a Calm Mind or two late game if needed. The weather support from Kyogre will base a lot of Water teams with Pokemon like Kingdra or Palkia. Kyogre in my eyes will be the most watched out for Pokemon this tournament.
Fragile defenses but some quick speed and very nice movepool. Special offense is great from Mewtwo with moves such as Thunder, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and even Psychic. More options from Mewtwo can come from Selfdestruct even if it will be predictable. Mewtwo has fragile defenses but it's speed is not a joke still, turn Mewtwo into a support Pokemon here with screens and Will-O-Wisp. Mewtwo is being pretty overlooked at the moment.
This will likely be heavily used due to Kyogre. Palkia has something from Heart Gold / Soul Silver called Hydro Pump which can be pretty useful. Aside from that there is Spacial Rend, Thunder, and etc. Palkia I believe will be all offense here and maybe the lesser choice of Substitute.
The other 3rd gen legend to complete the bunch. Rayquaza has some cool toys to play with if you can find the time. Swords Dance, Earthquake, Dragon Claw, or mix it up with a quick Draco Meteor and Extreme Speed. Negating weather effects is some nice help but I don't really see much use for Ray.
Okay these Pokemon I believe will be the combination of 2 Ubers on everyone's team. There are other Pokemon I see doing something as well: Hariyama, Kingdra, Smeargle, Snorlax, Dusknoir, Gengar, and Shedinja are some I believe to name a few.
So I can't claim to have read this entire thread, but I did a few searches and didn't find anything quite the same as this
my crazy friend just used this against me, make me lol, as well as lose miserably. this probably isn't quite tailored for "real" use, (compared to our "casual" use) but i bet someone could take this and make it good?
Cherrim @Focus Sash
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
Ability: Flower Gift
[252 Def][252 SpD][4 HP]
-Sunny Day
-Helping Hand
-Protect
-Endure
Typhlosion @Flame Plate
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
Ability: Blaze
[252 Spe][252 SpA][4 HP]
-Protect
-Eruption
-Heat Wave
-Endure
So the idea is pretty obvious here, Cherrim is going to be slower than most Rain Dancers, so Sunny Day will go up. Typhlosion Protects the first turn. With Focus Sash, Cherrim should hopefully still be alive. Ideally, next turn the opponents will both be hit by a STAB-Sunny Day-Flame Plate-Helping Hand-Flower Gift-boosted 150 BP attack. Ouch. Cherrim Can also play with Endure/Protect to try and stay alive, and if Typhlosion survives an attack by come miracle, Blaze boosted Heat Wave will hit harder than Eruption.
So theres probably a bunch of holes in this, but if it catches you off guard it can be really painful. what does this end up being anyway... 317 Special Attack boosted to 475 (Flower Gift). 150 BP Eruption boosted to 225 (STAB), 337 (Sunny Day), 506 (Helping Hand), 607 (Flame Plate). Off of 328 Speed.
I bet I've made some mistakes up in there, I'm fairly new at this. Speaking of how new I am... how do you insert the pokemon's icons? ::blush::
EDIT: oh shoots, apparently Flower Gift is Att/SpD boost, not Att/SpA. Meaning Cherrim can be replaced with anything more durable that can Sunny Day + Helping Hand. Kind of a relief, really. I'm thinking of maybe Shuckle, Jumpluff?
my crazy friend just used this against me, make me lol, as well as lose miserably. this probably isn't quite tailored for "real" use, (compared to our "casual" use) but i bet someone could take this and make it good?
Cherrim @Focus Sash
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
Ability: Flower Gift
[252 Def][252 SpD][4 HP]
-Sunny Day
-Helping Hand
-Protect
-Endure
Typhlosion @Flame Plate
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
Ability: Blaze
[252 Spe][252 SpA][4 HP]
-Protect
-Eruption
-Heat Wave
-Endure
So the idea is pretty obvious here, Cherrim is going to be slower than most Rain Dancers, so Sunny Day will go up. Typhlosion Protects the first turn. With Focus Sash, Cherrim should hopefully still be alive. Ideally, next turn the opponents will both be hit by a STAB-Sunny Day-Flame Plate-Helping Hand-Flower Gift-boosted 150 BP attack. Ouch. Cherrim Can also play with Endure/Protect to try and stay alive, and if Typhlosion survives an attack by come miracle, Blaze boosted Heat Wave will hit harder than Eruption.
So theres probably a bunch of holes in this, but if it catches you off guard it can be really painful. what does this end up being anyway... 317 Special Attack boosted to 475 (Flower Gift). 150 BP Eruption boosted to 225 (STAB), 337 (Sunny Day), 506 (Helping Hand), 607 (Flame Plate). Off of 328 Speed.
I bet I've made some mistakes up in there, I'm fairly new at this. Speaking of how new I am... how do you insert the pokemon's icons? ::blush::
EDIT: oh shoots, apparently Flower Gift is Att/SpD boost, not Att/SpA. Meaning Cherrim can be replaced with anything more durable that can Sunny Day + Helping Hand. Kind of a relief, really. I'm thinking of maybe Shuckle, Jumpluff?
Flower gift raises the pokemon's attack not attack power. Eruption being a special attack would get no benefit from flower gift.
Well I started thinking and I've really got my heart set on trying out something like this
Jolteon @expertbelt
- Discharge
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ice
- Filler
Blissey @leftovers
with Serene Grace
- Skill Swap
- Seismic Toss
- Wish / Safegaurd / Aromatherapy
- Protect
Obviously you want to skill swap so that when you discharge Blissey gains back 25% health but since jolteon now has serene grace discharge has a 60% chance to paralyze. There are a lot of lightning rod type double teams out there so hidden power ice is an absolute must for destroying the lightning rod while blissey protects from any unfortunate earthquakes. I'm not a big fan of walls in doubles but this was just really different to me.
Jolteon @expertbelt
- Discharge
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ice
- Filler
Blissey @leftovers
with Serene Grace
- Skill Swap
- Seismic Toss
- Wish / Safegaurd / Aromatherapy
- Protect
Obviously you want to skill swap so that when you discharge Blissey gains back 25% health but since jolteon now has serene grace discharge has a 60% chance to paralyze. There are a lot of lightning rod type double teams out there so hidden power ice is an absolute must for destroying the lightning rod while blissey protects from any unfortunate earthquakes. I'm not a big fan of walls in doubles but this was just really different to me.
How exactly do you expect Jolteon to be able to survive the first turn to get skill swap off in the first place?
Good point. The last slot could be used for protect, endure, or substitute and that would give it a little bit of staying power.
I wonder. In a metagame where Protect is so popular, does Feint have any merit? I guess the downside to it is the only two Pokemon with STAB Feint are Persian and Farfetch'd, but there are a few noteworthy Pokemon who do get it: Scizor, Gallade, Heracross, Pinsir, Electivire, Blaziken, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Lucario, Toxicroak, Infernape, Flygon. Since there's no STAB it doesn't sound like a good idea, but from what I gather on the doubles metagame is that there's usually something using Protect every other turn, and that little bit extra damage could be crucial. Not to mention a successful Feint nullifies Protect for the rest of the turn.
My only real issue with it is that the only Pokemon from that list that has any chance of surviving an Explosion is Scizor, but that's just if you use it along with Explosion.
Persian gets a special notice because he not only gets STAB, but also a boost if you use it with Technician.
Persian gets a special notice because he not only gets STAB, but also a boost if you use it with Technician.
Feint's damage does not really matter. The key thing is Feint removes the effect of protect. Honestly, just using feint by itself to inflict damage is rather pointless because a couple chips of damage will not really matter. The only reason why it was used by Omegadonut was because he was going to explode, meaning that he would at least remove one pokemon from game. Otherwise, you're better off using that slot for something else. Plus, it is a pain in the ass to have to predict each time. And if you do assume that they will just protect with one Pokemon each time and feint each turn, then they just won't protect, meaning that your move is wasted.
Mike used a Focus Sash on his Infernape so that it could survive the Explosion, and also had Endeavor to take advantage of the fact that he was left with 1 HP. Regardless, I personally don't think that Feint is worth it, and would rather try to predict my opponent's Protects and work around them. There are certainly many situations where Feint could be useful, but I would rather use another move in its place.
I have been Rnging for a while to make my VGC 2010 team(s) and at the moment I have been trying to get a set for Palkia. What are some of the most popular movesets that are known?
I have been going for...
Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Timid
EV's - 252SpA/252Spe/6Atk
31/31/31/31/31/31
~ Spacial Rend
~ Surf/Hydro Pump
~ Thunder
~ Protect/Aqua Tail/Fire Blast
I've seen more surf over hydro pump but I did hear from some (some) Japanese guys that they hate how surf tends to hit even your teammates and unless you have toxicroak or guys with water absorb ability, it may be a huge hinderance so I am not too sure on that. Special Rend is there for an obvious reason and thunder is really for all those (seriously...if you don't already know...though I am pretty sure you guys already do...at least 50% of the teams here in Japan use that freaking orca pokemon) Kyogres. Now, I am not too sure which move to use for the last slot but aqua tail would be for blissey (though I haven't seen too many of these fatties) and fire blast would be for the flexibility under the sun and against the steels. Protect is for an obvious reason as it is one of the most used/abused move in VGC battles. However, I already do have a pokemon with protect and I am not too sure which move would fit best in the last slot. What do you guys think?
I have been going for...
Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Timid
EV's - 252SpA/252Spe/6Atk
31/31/31/31/31/31
~ Spacial Rend
~ Surf/Hydro Pump
~ Thunder
~ Protect/Aqua Tail/Fire Blast
I've seen more surf over hydro pump but I did hear from some (some) Japanese guys that they hate how surf tends to hit even your teammates and unless you have toxicroak or guys with water absorb ability, it may be a huge hinderance so I am not too sure on that. Special Rend is there for an obvious reason and thunder is really for all those (seriously...if you don't already know...though I am pretty sure you guys already do...at least 50% of the teams here in Japan use that freaking orca pokemon) Kyogres. Now, I am not too sure which move to use for the last slot but aqua tail would be for blissey (though I haven't seen too many of these fatties) and fire blast would be for the flexibility under the sun and against the steels. Protect is for an obvious reason as it is one of the most used/abused move in VGC battles. However, I already do have a pokemon with protect and I am not too sure which move would fit best in the last slot. What do you guys think?
Blaze-boosted Heat Wave seems more useful than Feint.
what about this as an opener?
Smeargle@Custap Berry
Adamant Nature/252Attack/6HP/252Speed
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Explosion
-Dark Void/Spore
Togekiss@Lum Berry
Calm NAture/252HP/252Sp.Def./6Speed
-Follow Me
-Air Slash
-Protect
-Thunder Wave
Okay bascially Togekiss uses Follow Me, while Smeargle uses Substitute. Next turn they'll prolly expect togekiss to follow me again so she'll protect while smeargle sets them off to sleep. Now they will most likely switch giving smeargle a chance to belly drum down to what is no2 25% of his HP. People will probably expect some poorly done Belly Drum set(if not its okay) and expect a baton pass. But instead he'll launch a pretty dangerous stab'd explosion. But no salac berry? No. since he'll prolly be outspeed in trick room, rain, sun etc. i gave him custap berry which pretty much guarentees he goes first next turn so he can fire off the explosion regardless of other speed boosts.
Lum Berry is for sleep leads and Thunderwave is for annoying sweepers.
Good, bad, terrible(D:)? Let me know if this is a good opener. :D
Smeargle@Custap Berry
Adamant Nature/252Attack/6HP/252Speed
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Explosion
-Dark Void/Spore
Togekiss@Lum Berry
Calm NAture/252HP/252Sp.Def./6Speed
-Follow Me
-Air Slash
-Protect
-Thunder Wave
Okay bascially Togekiss uses Follow Me, while Smeargle uses Substitute. Next turn they'll prolly expect togekiss to follow me again so she'll protect while smeargle sets them off to sleep. Now they will most likely switch giving smeargle a chance to belly drum down to what is no2 25% of his HP. People will probably expect some poorly done Belly Drum set(if not its okay) and expect a baton pass. But instead he'll launch a pretty dangerous stab'd explosion. But no salac berry? No. since he'll prolly be outspeed in trick room, rain, sun etc. i gave him custap berry which pretty much guarentees he goes first next turn so he can fire off the explosion regardless of other speed boosts.
Lum Berry is for sleep leads and Thunderwave is for annoying sweepers.
Good, bad, terrible(D:)? Let me know if this is a good opener. :D
I can tell you now that a lot of lead groudons and kyogres will be running minimum speed to outslow the other legend and get up the right weather. It will be a competitition of who has the slowest kyogre/groudon and from there the game's pace will be dictated. If kyogre outslows groudon that could be GG right there, I mean the only way to stop rain now is to make a double switch, not only wasting turns but also leaving your team members very vulnerable. For that reason trick room could be popular because not only do you go last so you get up the weather, but then you go first once you get the right weather up.
I just realized, Infernape seems like a great support option on a rain team because it outspeeds and OHKO's ALL other weather-setter uppers.
252 HP / 0 Sp. Def Groudon is OHKO'd 100% of the time by Overheat with only 220 special attack ev's, a life orb, and a NEUTRAL nature (double STAB, remember)!
All common Tyranitar are OHKO'd by Close Combat probably without very much ev investment
All Hippowdon will probably be OHKO'd by Grass Knot or even Overheat (haven't done the calcs but these shouldn't be common anyways)
All Abomasnows will die to any fire attack.
I just realized, Infernape seems like a great support option on a rain team because it outspeeds and OHKO's ALL other weather-setter uppers.
252 HP / 0 Sp. Def Groudon is OHKO'd 100% of the time by Overheat with only 220 special attack ev's, a life orb, and a NEUTRAL nature (double STAB, remember)!
All common Tyranitar are OHKO'd by Close Combat probably without very much ev investment
All Hippowdon will probably be OHKO'd by Grass Knot or even Overheat (haven't done the calcs but these shouldn't be common anyways)
All Abomasnows will die to any fire attack.
Well, you are sort of banking on these strategies working flawlessly without any sort of sense that the other player will catch on.
Let me take your last strategy for example. Something weak to, say, Thunder alongside a Rhyperior makes it almost certain that Rhyperior is running Lightningrod. And what will your teammate do? Either kill the other one with a non-electric attack or double team Rhyperior and then strike down the second with Thunder, especially if rain is in effect.
Not all supporting roles work in doubles because of double teaming and double teaming is usually a pretty sane way of eliminating any sort of strategy like that.