DP Crawdaunt

[Lee]

All I know is that Sharpedo's mixed set is still a monster in UU, and if perception about Crawdaunt allows it to run that set potentially more effectively (let's say you decide to add Hydro Pump on it, 2hko on Weezing? Whereas most Weezing I know would hesitate to switch into Sharpedo)

Unlike Sharpedo, Crawdaunt doesn't learn Hydro Pump.

 

[Aldaron]

O

well point still stands for another Pokemon and move, obviously

 

[Caelum]

I'm interested, but not convinced (I kinda stand where Aldaron does). On the note of the defensive prowess over Sharpedo, I'm probably going to do some calcs tonight to see if it really is advantageous in some plausible scenarios so I'll get back to you guys on that later tonight or tomorrow. Even if the general thought is that it shouldn't be in the analysis, I'd strongly insist on it being put in Other Options at least.

 

[twash]

^ Same for me. It definitely should go in Other Options seeing as it is a completely viable set - it's just whether it is going to have it's own set or not. (Obviously depending upon the damage calculations).

 

[Bourbon]

Well, orginally this was an effort for both Sharpedo AND Crawdaunt, however, I found the Sharpedo one to be less effective, as even NVE moves were leaving pretty big dents in it. Losing 50% of your HP switching into fairly weak attacks was devestating. I couldn't even Wish pass to it because usually the NVE attack + Stealth Rock damage outweighed the Wish Pass.

Here is an example of the difference in defensive prowess:

Blastoise's Surf against Crawdaunt: 29.74%-35.32%
Blastoise's Surf against Sharpedo: 35.23%-41.64%


And that's on the special side. Here is an example of a physical attack. Adamant Banette's Shadow Claw:

Shadow Claw on Crawdaunt: 23.42%-27.88%
Shadow Claw on Sharpedo: 41.28%-48.75%

I also couldn't think of any real threats that Sharpedo could outrun and kill better than Crawdaunt could. There isn't very many pokemon hovering around the 289> mark that Sharpedo could feasibly take on. Anyways, I suppose I could dig up the original post. It'll be hard to find though.

I suppose Sharpedo would have an easier time "sweeping" with it's higher Speed stat, but with all the revenge killers (scarfers, hitmontop, aerodactyl, etc) I would rather have more switch-in oppurtunities than speed. This set is designed to break walls anyways, not defeat other sweepers, although many of them can be killed on the switch if you predict well.

8/32/0 Rash Crawdaunt

Crawdaunt's Defense Tier: 114.41
Crawdaunt's Spc. Def Tier: 109.41

32/0/0 Rash Sharpedo

Sharpedo's Defense Tier: 108.81
Sharpedo's Spc. Def Tier: 107.77

So Sharpedo's defense is lower than Totodile's... and Crawdaunt's is on par with Charizard's. On the special side there is only about a 15% difference though :P

I updated this post with better calculations. Anyways, glad to see this is till open.

 

[Caelum]

I've been testing this for the last few days and I'm still "on the fence" as to whether this should be included but I'm leaning towards including it (surprisingly). The difference in efficacy between Sharpedo and Crawdaunt is negligible, however, the surprise factor does allow it to nab some surprise kills , unlike Mix Sharpedo. As Aldaron was suggesting, the surprise can make it valuable. Is that surprise enough is the question though? :/.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Any viable set on any pokemon should be posted in its analysis. If I am looking at a Crawdaunt analysis, it's because I want to use Crawdaunt. Not having sets that are perfectly usable just makes the analyses incomplete.

....that's just my view on it. The precedent (for some reason) goes against this. I think it's really a debate for a different topic. I want Great Sage/Phuq/any other site staff badgeholder to weigh in on it though.

 

[cim]

I'm pretty sure when I look up a Pokemon I want to learn about its viable options in its metagame. I'm not committed to the Pokemon when reading it.

Anyway, this has been an issue more than once, so maybe there should be a discussion thread on it.

 

[jumpluff]

Any viable set on any pokemon should be posted in its analysis. If I am looking at a Crawdaunt analysis, it's because I want to use Crawdaunt. Not having sets that are perfectly usable just makes the analyses incomplete.

....that's just my view on it. The precedent (for some reason) goes against this. I think it's really a debate for a different topic. I want Great Sage/Phuq/any other site staff badgeholder to weigh in on it though.

I don't have any weight in the discussion, but I agree, except that it's not exactly committing you to the Pokémon. But there may be situations where the person might want to run Crawdaunt for whatever reason, in which case I feel it is in the interest of Smogon as a the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling [from the about page] to list all viable sets of a Pokémon. Also, in Part II of the philosophy, it states -- yeah, I know there's the paragraph preceding it about outclassing, but it doesn't negate my point entirely -- the player who uses a lesser Pokémon and still attains victory consistently is rewarded with the utmost respect—so a player who values his or her "favorites" should consider investing the knowledge of Smogon into the lesser Pokémon.

So shouldn't Smogon provide its knowledge of the said lesser Pokémon?

 

[Bourbon]

so, uhhhhh, YAY or NAY :/

 

[Caelum]

After more testing, I'm going to give this a "yay". It's enough of a surprise that it has advantages over Sharpedo imo.

 

[Cynthia]

I think the fact that Sharpedo can do the same thing is irrelevant. This is a viable set for Crawdaunt and can definitely be included in the analysis. Sharpedo mostly outclasses it (not totally however), but maybe one would want to use Crawdaunt instead. If we apply the 'another poke can do it better" argument to existing analyses we would have to eliminate many existing sets.

 

[Aldaron]

I'm going to add this to the scms Skiddle, unless you have any changes you want to make.

I'll give you a few hours.

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah, I removed the Sharpedo thing, and cleaned it up a bit. Thanks again Aldaron.

 

[Bourbon]

I would love for this to go up on SCMS

And, all of the Crawdaunt should have 204 Speed EVs.

 

[Havak]

Okay, this seems finished, I'll go ahead and upload it now.

Also, changing the Speed EVs to 204 for every set could be more work than it seems. Maybe someone should edit the paragraphs with what needs to be said for 204?

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a new EVs section all together, possibly a little more on counters but I'm probably being picky there.

 

[Bourbon]

Well, if you'd like Havak, I can redo the other sets for Crawdaunt. Give me until tomorrow and I'll have both the Swords Dance set and the Choice set redone.

See, the thing is, 188 speed EVs hits 193 speed, which is actually 3 points less than the very pokemon it is trying to outrun: meganium.

 

[Havak]

Cool. Might as well keep this thread open then, just post them here once finished. Not much really needs to be done I guess, just edit the EVs and make sure to give them a proper explination in set comments. If you want to change the EVs section as well (which is quite poor) then go ahead and do that too. Since you're probably one of the more experienced Crawdaunt users, you'll know what to do.

 

[Bologo]

<p>With a respectable Special Attack stat, and STAB on one of the most potent attacking types in the game, Crawdaunt can do fairly well using a mixed sweeper set. Crunch is the only physical attack required as it destroys the special walls of the tier: Hypno and Grumpig are OHKOed, while Mantine and Lanturn are 2HKOed. Surf is for STAB and it handily washes away Steelix and Weezing: It OHKOs the metal snake and 2HKOs the latter. Ice Beam has good coverage with Surf and deals huge damage to Altaria and Meganium. Hidden Power Grass is for Quagsire, Blastoise, and Poliwrath, who would otherwise make good switch-ins for Crawdaunt. Watch out for Clefable, as there is a good chance it will survive two Surfs or Crunches, depending on its (no apostrophe) EVs. </p>

<p>The EVs are fairly specialized. 8 HP minimizes Life Orb recoil (Explain?). 12 Attack guarantees the OHKO on Hypno. The Special Attack stat is maximized (Explain your statement.). The Speed EVs allow you to outrun things such as no speed Meganium. The rest of the EVs are dumped into Defense to allow switching into weaker physical attacks. Shell Armor helps with this, as moves like Night Slash and Shadow Claw are excellent opportunities that could be ruined by a critical hit.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock is highly recommended with this set as some pokemon may escape being KO'd without its (no apostrophe) presence. That extra little bit of damage puts nearly every UU wall in danger of being defeated by Crawdaunt.</p>

Yeah, I made a few nitpicks. Also, about your EV spread paragraph, you can't just go without explaining your EV spread fully, especially if it's specialized. Remember, it's not only going to be expert players reading this, in fact, they're probably the least likely to read these. You're catering to newer players with these analyses, so you need to explain fully.

For example, 8 HP EVs minimizes Life Orb recoil, but how? What is so special about reaching this HP stat that makes it minimize Life Orb recoil?

Also, you just made a simple statement saying "The Special Attack stat is maximized." If I were a new player, I would be curious as to why Crawdaunt's Special Attack is being maximized instead of his much high Attack stat, so you need to explain why max Special Attack is needed.

 

[Bourbon]

Well, made all the changes. I noticed that the EVs didn't show up in the finished Analysis. For some reason, wherever I copy pasted the format from "[EVs]" had an apostrophe in it.

 

[Caelum]

fixed skiddle.

I also make Bologo's corrections (I think it would be okay for you in the future bologo to just correct them directly on site).

 

[Havak]

Caelum, I think you forgot to add the other sections that Skiddle re-wrote, but they may need spell checking still...

 

[Bourbon]

It's been a few days... this has not yet been approved.

 

[Caelum]

It's been a few days... this has not yet been approved.

I'll do a quick grammar/spelling check later today and then load it to SCMS since I think it looks fine.

 

[Caelum]

Ugh, I forgot about this. I had a question and that's why I didn't touch it yet. I meant to ask you Skiddle, are the damage calculations suppose to be in the analysis? You don't have it in the proper format (I can easily do it) so I wasn't sure if you intended them to be included or not.

I also made some slight wording changes but I just needed to know about the damage calcs. section.