DP Empoleon

[cim]

smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon

Specs set: I'm not a fan of the EVs. Without Modest Grass Knot won't 2HKO Gyarados (though there's little reason not to use HP Electric), plus the Speed is a lot less handy than 252 HP would be, which lets him switch in much more easily.

Agility set: Again the EVs. Modest and enough Speed for Hera or Vire should be plenty. Though outdoing Adamant Scarfchomp is useful, it should probably be a secondary option.

Physical sets listed are fairly novelty; they should be Other Options.

Substitute and Modest on the wall set is an interesting option to kill your counter with or without Torrent. Torrent Agility Petaya in Other Options is a maybe.

 

[moi]

Physical sets listed are fairly novelty; they should be Other Options.

I disagree. Sword Dance with Aqua Jet is an interesting concept. Empoleon can usually take a hit or two, then use the Sword Dance boost plus any Berry boost you get to do damage with things like STAB Aqua Jet, Waterfall.

 

[Aldaron]

I want to agree with Chrisisme that the physical sets are somewhat of a novelty.

Even though Swords Dance + STAB Aqua Jet sounds cool...you aren't even OHKOing Gengar with it. In fact, said Gengar can take an Aqua Jet at maximum damage (74.71%), Focus Blast with Life Orb down to 15% health and have a chance of OHKOing with that Focus Blast Life Orb on 252 HP / 0 SpD (since all 252 EVs are in Atk) Empoleon.

I guess somehow trying to ensure that Torrent is activated along with Swords Dance could be cool, but I don't know how to feasibly do that.

However, I have seen Syberia use a physical Empoleon to some success, so maybe I'll wait for his input before making a definitive judgment.

 

[cim]

You know what's cooler than Swords Dance Aqua Jet Empoleon? Uh, lots of things. Like Curse Shard Mamo. Or BulkMach Hitmontop (drools a little). Or... yeah.

Something worth noting: Modest nature on the Special Wall will help to counter Starmie better since GK will 2HKO.

 

[RaikouLover]

This set deserves serious consideration over the agility set.

[SET]
Name: Torrent Sweeper
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Agility
move 3: Surf
move 4: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
item: Petaya Berry
ability: Torrent
nature: Modest
evs: 44 HP / 216 Spe / 248 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Empoleon is arguably the best pinch user in the game, thanks to sandstorm immunity, and handy resists to the most common priority moves in Ice Shard, Extremespeed, Quick Attack, and Bullet Punch. The idea is to come in on its great resists and throw up a sub on the switch. After you agility, you can sub down to a petaya boost and sweep with Torrent boosted Surfs. Torrent and Petaya boost Empoleon's powerful Surfs by 225%, so you can do some serious damage to even pokemon that resist it. Ice Beam and Grass Knot both offer decent coverage against pokemon that resist Surfs.</p>

In the EVs section:
<p>The EVs listed give an HP divisable by four, and enough speed to outrun Scarf neutral natured base 90s.</p>

This set is Empoleon's best chance to sweep. I've used this extensively and I know its capabilities. I don't have time for the damage calcs now, but I will add them if needed.

 

[Forsety]

I have to agree physical sets are a novelty, rarely ever scoring KO's and not offering any space for utility. Also I agree with the Agility sweeper needing a update.

I can vouch for the success of Empoleon torrent sweeper set, in fact I even use the exact same EV's. I went about D/P looking for a new pinch sweeper to replace my old Sunny Day Typhlosion (with the advent of Sandstorm). Empoleon was what I found and it worked perfectly due to all its resistances and immunities.

However I'd make one very important change to the set or at least provide it as an option.

Surf needs to be replaced by Hydro Pump, I know most people hate hax and abhor inaccurate moves. But you'll find its a necessary evil, I'll list some important facts.

• After Torrent + Petaya boost, Empoleon will not always be 100% guaranteed a chance of OHKO on Bulky Garchomp. 91%-107% damage with Surf.
• Hydro Pump after Torrent + Petaya boost has a chance of a 2HKO on standard Blissey spreads doing 48-57% damage. I shouldn't need to express how important this is for a special sweeper.
• Doing only 75%-88% damage, standard Bronzong will always survive a full power Surf. However Hydro Pump will score the OHKO.
• Full power Hydro Pump will do more damage to 2x resistant Pokemon (eg. any grass type) than non-petaya'd Ice Beam would at 2x super effective damage due to the way Torrent is calculated. When you only have two attacks and one can replace your normal coverage move, it is significant. Ice Beam becomes more of a redundant option and Grass Knot becomes more necessary.
• Cresselia can't do anything to Empoleon, neither move will OHKO and both will 2HKO, so damage calcs are irrelevant there.
• However Hydro Pump scores 91%-107% on standard Dusknoir giving a chance of OHKO, though Stealth Rock can fill that void.
• Hydro Pump also edges 87%-102% on Spiritomb over into a definite OHKO, again SR makes this possible without Hydro Pump.
• Salamence can be KO'd by Hydro Pump if it switches on a Stealth Rock

 

[cim]

YES on the Hydro Pump Petaya Empoleon. It's extremely potent if it's pulled off, plus it scores a helpful OHKO on Magnezone before any boosts. I totally didn't know about the awesome OHKO Garchomp / 2HKO Blissey effect, thanks for the add in. It's too bad Brine doesn't work when Empoleon's HP is down.

The same EV spread should be on the standard, non-Petaya Agility sweeper too, as Timid Empoleon is wasting precious Special Attack. The Garchomp-beating EVs are worth mentioning in EVs certainly.

Choice Specs gets better mileage with 252 HP and Modest, as not only does it score a 2HKO on Gyarados with Grass Knot, but it makes switching in even more ridiculously easy. Rementioned for extreme emphasis.

Aqua Ring / Toxic sets might be worth an Other Options mention, though Empoleon cannot by any means stay in for a long amount of time at all.

I can do a complete edit of the page so that it's just a matter of copy-paste, though that will take me a little while (say a day or two for me to find free time).

 

[cim]

Side Comment: Lee, I posted that exact set about 5 or 6 months ago. So yeah. I can remove the attribution line if you want, I just thought it;d be cool.

I decided to just entirely replace the old crappy Agility sweeper.

[SET]
Name: Special Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot / Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar / Yawn
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm / Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Empoleon's a cool Special Wall: He's got 12 resistances and immunities and Specs Salamence can only manage 43% with Fire Blast (if Calm, 47% if Modest). His Special offense also makes him stand out. Ice Beam will beat said Salamence, while Grass Knot takes advantage of Empoleon's ability to counter Water-types such as Starmie and Milotic. As for support moves, Empoleon gets Stealth Rock, which can be used on its own or with Roar/Yawn.</p>

<p>The moveset can be played with a bit. Yawn and Protect can work if you predict something's staying in, while Stealth Rock and Roar make Empoleon a psuedo-Skarmory. Empoleon can run Sleep Talk for Hypnosis Milotic too, though Gengar has Thunderbolt and Focus Blast for Empoleon so he's not the best sleep absorber in the world.</p>

<p>Modest is an option on this set for a few reasons. First, Empoleon's niche is that of a Special Wall with actual special offense, so boosting SAtk a bit helps make him more unique. More importantly, it guarantees the 2HKO on Starmie with Grass Knot, making him a pretty neat Starmie counter as long as he's weary of Choice Specs Thunderbolt.</p>

[SET]
Name: Agility Petaya Torrent Kamikaze Sweeper Empoleon!
move 1: Agility
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
move 4: Substitute
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 44 HP / 248 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Shaymin, eat your heart out: Once this thing sets up, it's ready to slaughter anything in its path, including resists. Empoleon resists nearly every priority move, has kickass Special Attack (Only Omastar, Gorebyss, and Clamperl beat it), and Torrent to sweep with. Agility fixes his Speed, getting him above Scarf Base 90s like PorygonZ and Lucario. From there, he Subs 3 times to activate Torrent and Petaya Berry. From there, it's a boosted Hydro Pump sweep.</p>

<p>Surf is an option on this set, but Hydro Pump is generally preferred. Why? Because Hydro Pump is much stronger. Boosted Hydro Pump will always OHKO Bulky Garchomp (haha). Hydro Pump can 2HKO Bold Blissey (48-57%), OHKO Bronzong, and OHKO Dusknoir and Salamence while switching into Stealth Rock (though Empoleon's always faster than both anyway). That's an insane amount of power there. Boosted Hydro Pump will out-damage unboosted Ice Beam on Grass types, making Ice Beam entirely unnecessary and Grass Knot the ideal choice.</p>

<p>Of course, ideally (read: always) Empoleon is sweeping in the late game, so that means that the power drop from Surf hurts less; as one should eliminate counters in the early game. The accuracy is much, much better; 80 percent is barely adequate, so Surf's 100% accuracy may be more appealing to you. In addition, it still does upwards of 40% to Blissey (beating non-Seismic Toss/Thunderbolt versions) and you only really need 2HKOs on the above slower-than-Empoleon Pokémon. If you're using Surf, you might prefer Ice Beam for Salamence and Grass types, depending on your team.</p>

[SET]
Name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Sleep Talk / Hidden Power [Ground]
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With his above average defenses and massive resistances, Empoleon is one of the easiest Pokémon to switch in, making him a natural candidate for Choice Specs. As for your Water attack, Hydro Pump is again preferred over Surf for the guaranteed OHKO on Magnezone, but Surf is still a very good option due to accuracy. Ice Beam and Grass Knot are standard fare, taking out Grass and Water type switch-ins. Grass Knot has the added benefit of always 2HKOing Gyarados.</p>

<p>The fourth move is largely filler as Empoleon doesn't have the biggest offensive movepool (or a need for a bigger one). Sleep Talk makes sleep absorbing tasks easier. Hidden Power Ground is another option for Magnezone and Lanturn that also hits other Empoleon, though on anything else Hydro Pump does more damage.</p>

[SET]
Name: Swords Dance + Priority
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Earthquake / Avalanche
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Kinda reminds you of Normal Arceus, huh? Except he trades extreme strength (and Uber-ness) for massive surprise value. The idea here is to Swords Dance, use the shock and your bulkiness to do it again if you can, then kill things with STAB Aqua Jet off +4 boosted 298 Attack (that's 894 Attack, if you're wondering). Though the idea seems pure novelty at first sight, it's actually a somewhat viable option.</p>

<p>This set takes down Empoleon's big counters (Blissey, Ludicolo, Lanturn, Regice) as well as other threats (Dugtrio, Magnezone) very easily. Blissey is KOed quite easily by a +4 SDed Empoleon, and Paralysis isn't a bad thing for this Empoleon with Aqua Jet, protecting him from other status. Ludicolo gets annhilated by Drill Peck, Lanturn and Magnezone with Earthquake, Dugtrio with Aqua Jet, and Regice just can't do enough damage in time.</p>

<p>Drill Peck is the primary option here for hitting Heracross and Breloom on the switch. If you're scared of Salamence, which you probably should be, Avalanche should topple your Dragon typed friend and the negative priority doesn't matter much with Empoleon's minimal Speed. Since Water-Flying has excellent coverage, you should throw it over Earthquake, as Drill Peck is one of this set's main selling points. Speaking of Speed, the 4 Speed to outrun Impish Swampert lets you beat him one-on-one with Earthquake, 3HKOing with no boost at all.</p>

<p>Leftovers is the best item choice here; Empoleon is designed to play like Normal Arceus here and use its massive resistances to take hits.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>Empoleon could Choice Band, but the potential surprise value isn't made up for with Empoleon's crappy Attack stat. </p>

<p>On the Special Wall, Hydro Pump and Subsitute with Modest make Empoleon able to counter any non-Blissey switch in; Magnezone is 2HKO'd while he won't OHKO your Sub-less Empoleon, and Electivire is nearly always OHKO'd after Torrent. Rest and Sleep Talk sound good as does Aqua Ring, but Empoleon switches in and out a lot so they're really not worth the trouble. HP Electric is if you really fear Gyarados so much that you must OHKO him.</p>

<p>Rain Dance support is always good for Empoleon; on the Special Wall he could run the move as he does a decent job of keeping Hippowdon away. If you have a Wet rock Rain Dancer on your team, it could also help the Petaya set for even more massive damage.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Maxing HP and Special Defense is obvious on the walling sets. 4 Speed lets you beat minimum Swampert, so that can be handy. The Agility set has the option of running Timid and 216 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Choice Scarf Garchomp, but then it won't get the kills needed with Modest. 44 HP makes HP divisible by 4; be sure to adjust if you don't have a 31 HP IV on Wi-Fi. Choice Specs can run any speed up to max and Modest and still maintain its efficacy; Timid makes it weaker in exchange for outrunning Metagross, Adamant Tyranitar, and a few Heatran. Swords Dance should max out HP and Attack; this lets him take hits and do actual damage to things.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>Empoleon is badass, an off-the-beaten-path Pokémon who can both wall and sweep your opponent. As a Special wall, it can shine as a counter to most Water-types (including non-EQ Gyarados) and dish out stronger hits than Blissey while absorbing attacks with his 12 resists and immunities. As a sweeper, he's really something most teams don't expect and he can reach insanely powerful levels with Torrent and Petaya boosting his excellent Water STAB. </p>

<p>The thing that really holds him back from being a complete powerhouse is the lack of real recovery and 3 common weaknesses to Fighting, Ground, and Electric. If you can get the past these limitations (hint: pair with Gliscor!), he's a fine choice for a lot of teams.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>For every set, Lanturn is an excellent counter, barely being scratched by Grass Knot. Watch for Hidden Power Ground on the Specs set or Earthquake on the Swords Dance set.</p>

<p>Countering the wall set isn't very hard. Electivire can switch in to anything on the wall set and immediately threaten a KO with Thunderpunch. Blissey, Cresselia, Snorlax, and Regice all wall the walling Empoleon. Hitmontop spins away Stealth Rock while threatening a KO with Mach Punch or Hi Jump Kick.</p>

<p>The Agility set is harder to shut down. A Calm Blissey or Lanturn stops it cold, as do things with Taunt or stuff faster than him. After the last Substitute is broken, stuff like Lucario, Breloom, and Hitmontop can Mach Punch him. Hitmontop's high Special Defense can help, to a degree, and he also gets special mention for Triple Kick. Tentacruel gives him problems too, as does some Vaporeon and Lapras.</p>

<p>Strangely, not many counters are out there that can switch into both the Swords Dance set and the SubPetaya set; Cress and Thunderbolt Blissey are your only real shots. If you know it's a Swords Dancer, Impish Swampert (Relaxed is slower and loses) and Tangrowth are possible counters.</p>

 

[Lee]

I'd like to see the Agility-Petaya variant added, as mentioned here - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1147540&postcount=1696 and also by RaikouLover in this thread. It's incredibly effective, far moreso than the standard Agility set which lacks the neccesary firepower to threaten any team that doesn't have recurring weaks to Water/Ice/Grass.

It also seems to be gaining popularity pretty quickly, so that always counts for something.

 

[Forsety]

It also seems to be gaining popularity pretty quickly, so that always counts for something.

Actually I seem to recall bringing this set up back last October in a Empoleon substitute set discussion. So its more a matter of it needing more publicity since its been proven to be an (if not most) effective set already.

Overall a suggestion for the Empoleon page is to replace Agility set with the Torrent sweeper set. Omit the CB set as it is pure novelty, not very effective and extending the article unecessarily. Substitute should be offered as an option for the special wall set. Also the counters list misses off that a good counter for special orientated Empoleon's are Lanturn and Empoleon itself.

@Chris is me
Having Stealth Rock twice on one set is unecessary even if it is optional, just once will do.

 

[RaikouLover]

Guys, I hate to break it to you, but Surf > Hydro Pump on Agility Empoleon. Let me explain:

2HKOing Blissey is cool, but Blissey is likely to switch in immediately on your first sub, making that 2HKO irrelevant, as you have to sub down to torrent range, and will simply be KOed by Seismic Toss.

Bulky Garchomp? are you serious? Every garchomp these days is sweep, sweep, sweep. I don't even see scarfchomp anymore. Plus, with Hydro Pump, you have like a 64% chance of even hitting that fool in sandstorm.

Accuracy is probably the most important reason. At 25% health, you don't want to miss with hydro pump and do absolutely nothing! Surf is fine, and Ice Beam or Grass Knot can be used, depending on the rest of your team. Those KOs on spiritomb and bronzong are nice, but you will still do a helluva lot of damage to them regardless, so all you have to do is weaken. Agility Empoleon is a lategame sweeper, so plan accordingly, as you only get one chance to pull it off. Therefore, Surf is the best option. You don't see Garchomp's sweeping with Dragon Rush, now do you?

 

[Lee]

Side Comment: Lee, I posted that exact set about 5 or 6 months ago.

Actually I seem to recall bringing this set up back last October in a Empoleon substitute set discussion. So its more a matter of it needing more publicity since its been proven to be an (if not most) effective set already.

Yeah, fair play to you guys, I did remember chrisisme's original SubPetaya set, but I thought I was being original by throwing Agility into the mix. The attribution line seems a little out of place on Smogon too.

I've been using Surf though tbh...that set is such an instant sweep in a can, that I'd rather not throw away the match on an 80% accurate move. Still, 2HKOing Bliss is justification enough for Hydro Pump's inclusion but I'd still rather see Surf as an option.

Agreeing with ditching the CB set...I've yet to see it used, and doubt it would be overly effective anyway; it's not as if it lets him bypass his counters as I'm pretty sure it would fail to 2HKO Blissey (not sure if he learns Brick Break though).

 

[RaikouLover]

Um, guys, Empoleon won't be beating Blissey unless you have 2 layers of T-spikes down. I did a test yesterday. Blissey will ALWAYS come in on the first sub. Even if it doesn't, you have to OHKO everything otherwise you die. 2HKOing Blissey isn't good enough, as she will just seismic toss you to death.

Throw Hydro Pump out the window, seriously.

 

[Aldaron]

Just to clarify, on the most common Blissey, 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold (for some reason lol, cause 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD is much more efficient), a 252 SpA Modest Petaya boosted Torrent activated Hydro Pump from Empoleon has a 10.39% chance of 2HKOing Blissey (not factoring in CHs or accuracy) with Leftovers.

An interesting thing to note is that with Stealth Rock down, this 2HKO probability is actually boosted to 99.41% (again, not factoring in accuracy or CHs), meaning Hydro Pump should certainly not be disregarded that quickly.

On the more efficient 4 HP / 252 SpD neutral nature Blissey, btw, that same Hydro Pump has a 30.51% chance of 2HKOing Blissey Leftovers and Stealth Rock in play.

 

[Forsety]

Just to clarify, on the most common Blissey, 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold (for some reason lol, cause 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD is much more efficient)

Most people enjoy having Bliss survive a stray physical attack. Though why anyone would even leave it into a suspected physical is beyond me. The Uber play spread you mentioned only gets a obscure single line in the Blissey section so its not surprising.

2HKOing Blissey is cool, but Blissey is likely to switch in immediately on your first sub, making that 2HKO irrelevant, as you have to sub down to torrent range, and will simply be KOed by Seismic Toss.

I doubt it'd be that hard to build up the residue damage with the penguin. Theres not exactly many things Bliss can do to a sub equipped Empoleon besides attack making it fairly easy to predict and D/P mechanics allow all powerups to activate immediately. It doesn't hurt to offer it as a option as the extra power is perfectly justifiable.

As for Bulky chomp I'm talking about Salac sweeper. Another late game set making it a likely opponent and which does seem to get played now and again. The Dragon Rush/Hydro Pump analogy isn't quite the same considering one has 10% more accuracy than the other.

 

[Aldaron]

It shouldn't really even be a uber specific spread, lol.

714 HP / 130 Def / 306 SpD takes physical hits 9.5% better but special hits 20.6% worse than 652 HP / 130 Def / 369 SpD.

I mean, I understand the ability to take physical hits, but with 252 Def EVs, that is still there. You take hits that you shouldn't be taking anyway a little worse for a 21% increase in ability to take the hits you should be taking. But...that's for the Blissey Peer Edit ;)

Bottom line is that I think Hydro Pump should remain an option because it has an extremely high chance of 2HKOing standard Blissey with Stealth Rock in play and it has a chance of 2HKOing "efficient" Blissey.

 

[RaikouLover]

^^^^ Yes but what Blissey is going to wait until you get into petaya and torrent range to finally switch in. I really see this as a moot point. If your opponent has a Blissey, it's going to switch it in the moment you sub. You can sub down as you please, but unless you OHKO Blissey, Empoleon is going down. Therefore, because of inferior accuracy and no real benefits, Hydro Pump should be left out. The set needs Surf for reliability while sweeping. Case closed.

EDIT: I disregard my post, Hydro Pump my have its uses. But I still prefer Surf for accuracy. I just beat a Bliss with this set! It was a cool situation, where the bliss was at 80%. It went like this...

Erik sent out Empoleon!
Empoleon used Agility!
Swampert used Earthquake (90% damage)
Empoleon's Petaya Berry raised its special attack!
____ switched in Blissey
Empoleon used Surf (40% damage)
Empoleon used Surf (40% damage)
Blissey fainted!

I was floored. This was quite a maneuver. I essentially baited Swampert to stay in and Earthquake me, knowing it couldn't OHKO me, while I set up and smashed Blissey to pieces. Needless to say, the battle ended in a 5-0 Empoleon sweep. This set has SERIOUS gamebreaking potential.

 

[cim]

I've found that direct Blissey switches happen less.

Lee, my set was a SubSalac one (yup, dumb), then I changed it to AgiliSubPetaya after playing a bit and after being reminded that Salac Berry = Choice Scarf in speed (again, dumb me). I'll take out the attribution, it makes me sound kinda arrogant to refer to myself in the third person. You're still cool though.

I'll put Surf as secondary, you make good points. Though the Hydro Pump power level is so insanely high that the 80% miss rate is warranted, kinda like CB Stone Edge Rhyperior's 2HKO on Skarmory-ness or Fire Blast Heatran.

Also, December == October for me, I guess.

 

[Bologo]

Guys, something tells me that some of you are just theorymoning the Swords Dance Empoleon set. The Choice Band Empoleon isn't very good, but Swords Dance Empoleon is great. Chris is me, nobody cares how "cool" SD Empoleon is, we care about its effectiveness...if you think that CurseSwine is cooler then use that, nobody's forcing you to use SD Empoleon...

I've used it quite a bit, and I've had positive results with it every match.

I use this set:

Empoleon @Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Ability: Torrent
Adamant Nature

- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Earthquake
- Drill Peck

This set takes down Empoleon's big counters very easily. Eg. Blissey, Ludicolo, Lanturn, Magnezone, Dugtrio, Regice. Blissey is KOed quite easily by a SDed Empoleon, and Paralysis actually isn't a bad thing for this Empoleon with Aqua Jet. Ludicolo gets annhilated by Drill Peck, Lanturn by Earthquake, Magnezone with Earthquake, Dugtrio with Aqua Jet, and Regice just can't do enough damage.

Of course, this shouldn't be used right at the beginning of the game when everything's at 100% health, that would be absurd. Remember though, Swords Dance is Empoleon's only actual stat boosting move, and it works very well with max HP EVs to give Empoleon mega bulkiness to work with his 11 resistances and 1 immunity.

The reason that Drill Peck is there over Avalanche is for catching things such as Heracross and Breloom on the switch since they can easily come in and kill Empoleon, and it can also be used to counter Ludicolo.

Although Aqua Jet requires 2 Swords Dances to show a lot of effectiveness, Empoleon, in my experience, has little to no trouble getting off 2 Swords Dances, and it's then when he starts becoming a machine.

If at any point it happens to get under 33% health, Torrent activates, and Aqua Jet then becomes 90 BP, which makes it all that much deadlier.

One thing to keep in mind with this set is that it may look easy to use, but it's actually quite difficult, as it requires quite a bit of prediction. Eg. Knowing when that Heracross is going to come out and therefore when you need to Drill Peck, or knowing when that Magnezone is coming in so that you can Earthquake.

The set works quite well in my experiences with it, so physical Empoleon is NOT novelty.

If you guys have anymore questions about SD Empoleon, I'll gladly answer.

 

[cim]

I'd call it extremely hard to use. Beating Blissey is a bit of a plus, but it's all surprise and not enough win. Dugtrio's not a counter and is shut down by Empoleon anyway, and Magnezone usually loses to Wall Empoleon if Subbed on the switch. Ludicolo is fairly uncommon.

By the way, for me cool is for me synonymous with "usable and fun at the same time". I guess I'll put it on for the power of SD Aqua Jet, but the Agility sweeper is more cooler and Empoleon doesn't even have powerful STAB to kill Blissey with (once you SD, they're running for Cresselia anyway but still). It also has nothing for Vaporeon or the Water Grounds.

 

[Bologo]

Ehh, Vaporeon is beaten quite easily by SD Empoleon. SD Earthquake can have a guaranteed 3HKO while HP Electric from the standard 68 SpA Vaporeon is a 5HKO a majority of the time to the Empoleon spread that I posted, it's only occasionally a 4HKO because of Leftovers recovery. If Vaporeon tries Protect, just Swords Dance while he's using Protect and then hit him for extra damage.

I admit that Swampert is a bit of a problem, but MixPert still gets 3HKOed by Earthquake, and 2HKOed if SR is up. Swampert is going to lose a big chunk of its health no matter what, if Empoleon has already gotten the Swords Dance up. Remember, MixPert is Relaxed, which means that it'll be slower than Empoleon, which means that it has to take 2 huge attacks before it can even deliver 1 attack. Earthquake won't be OHKOing Empoleon anytime soon, and that means that Empoleon will beat Swampert a majority of the time. The only Swamperts that are going to be beating Empoleon are the Choice Band one, and maybe the Rest Talker.

 

[cim]

Gah, stop making your set awesomer and awesomer! People will start seeing something is up. So Impish Swampert's the only one of those that "counter", got it.

The whole "Counters" section is a bit bare, anyone have any others?

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat Chris is me
I'll put Surf as secondary, you make good points. Though the Hydro Pump power level is so insanely high that the 80% miss rate is warranted, kinda like CB Stone Edge Rhyperior's 2HKO on Skarmory-ness or Fire Blast Heatran.

No, Surf cannot be secondary on this set. It is priority. You don't want to blow the game with your sweeper because of Hydro Pump's damn good chance of missing, just to 2HKO a pokemon you probably shouldn't even be trying to beat in the first place (Blissey). The majority of the community will agree wit me on this one. That is the reason Waterfall is chosen on Gyarados over Aqua Tail, Flamethrower on Mixape over Fire Blast, Dragon Claw over Dragon Rush on Salamence, etc. The fact that you have the game in the bag and blow it because you chose an attack that can miss is foolish, especially when you are using a pokemon that will be sweeping with only 1/4 of its HP or less. One timely miss and your set-up can mean nothing.

On another note, I found Grass Knot to be more useful than Ice Beam, just for saying.

[SET]
Name: Torrent Sweeper
move 1: Agility
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
move 4: Substitute
item: Petaya Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 44 HP / 248 SpA / 216 Spe

Looks like a bit of slashitis, but I still think Hydro Pump should be dropped.

 

[cim]

People obviously have different opinions on this, and I made a fair argument for both in the analysis. It's all risk versus payoff, like Fire Blast versus Flamethrower.

Uh, I think you mean Petaya on your quote...

What exactly is Ice Beam for? Basically nothing gets hit by it harder than Torrent Hydro or Grass Knot, so it probably shouldn't even be listed to avoid the/slash/itis/that/plagues/bad/articles/like/that/one/on/the/other/webstie.

 

[Azacin]

Remember, since SD Empoleon works well enough, it will surprise an opponent who switches into a Special Wall.