DP Metagame Analysis - 6/11/07

[Ness]

From what I have witnessed, there are too many teams built around countering popular Pokemon rather than just doing their own thing/strategy. Because of this, people get caught off guard when they see Pokemon they don't expect and play it bad. I can't begin to count how many KOs I have got from my Honchkrow using Sucker Punch just because people think "LOL LOW DEFENSE EASY KO". I am probably the only one who uses Honchkrow so that may be a reason.

I use Magnezone and people always think that it packs HP Ice. It doesn't, because breeding for HP is too time consuming. But Flash Cannon is still a good STAB move for it that people are NEVER PREPARED FOR. I've had people switch in Rhyperiors into my Magnezone repeatedly.

YANMEGA... no one ever seems to be prepared for him either. Yanmega with speed boost is versitile.. yet people don't bring in their special walls against him(the BEST thing to do against Yanmega). People don't realize what Yanmega has done to them until I have taken out 2 Pokemon.

And Lastly... AMBIPOM. It's like people don't even know that this guy can be used as a Baton Passer and just assume its going to attack physically and abuse Technichian. How many ghosts/physical walls/fighting Pokemon must be brought in against it? That just gives me a free turn to set up a baton pass. I have faced way too many people who fail to treat Ambipom as a potential baton passer and once they figure out whats up its too late....

 

[Surgo]

From what I have witnessed, there are too many teams built around countering popular Pokemon rather than just doing their own thing/strategy. Because of this, people get caught off guard when they see Pokemon they don't expect and play it bad. I can't begin to count how many KOs I have got from my Honchkrow using Sucker Punch just because people think "LOL LOW DEFENSE EASY KO". I am probably the only one who uses Honchkrow so that may be a reason.

This is a good point that I missed, thanks for the post. I'll edit something like that in...

 

[Firestorm]

I still like Infernape :(

Also, why is Taunt "suped-up"?

Used to last until the end of the next turn. Now lasts 2 - 6 (like Encore).

 

[Great Sage]

No, it's only 2-4. However, it does give a message when it ends like Encore.

 

[Mekkah]

From what I have witnessed, there are too many teams built around countering popular Pokemon rather than just doing their own thing/strategy. Because of this, people get caught off guard when they see Pokemon they don't expect and play it bad. I can't begin to count how many KOs I have got from my Honchkrow using Sucker Punch just because people think "LOL LOW DEFENSE EASY KO". I am probably the only one who uses Honchkrow so that may be a reason.

I use Magnezone and people always think that it packs HP Ice. It doesn't, because breeding for HP is too time consuming. But Flash Cannon is still a good STAB move for it that people are NEVER PREPARED FOR. I've had people switch in Rhyperiors into my Magnezone repeatedly.

YANMEGA... no one ever seems to be prepared for him either. Yanmega with speed boost is versitile.. yet people don't bring in their special walls against him(the BEST thing to do against Yanmega). People don't realize what Yanmega has done to them until I have taken out 2 Pokemon.

And Lastly... AMBIPOM. It's like people don't even know that this guy can be used as a Baton Passer and just assume its going to attack physically and abuse Technichian. How many ghosts/physical walls/fighting Pokemon must be brought in against it? That just gives me a free turn to set up a baton pass. I have faced way too many people who fail to treat Ambipom as a potential baton passer and once they figure out whats up its too late....

People being unfamiliar with opposing Pokemon says nothing about the metagame, it just shows they don't know everything. This kind of posts sickens me to death.

 

[Pokézoni]

Jirachi is an event Pokemon and is seeing a lot of use. I think the availability isn't much of a factor, what with various cloning methods and the ease of trading. I 'expected' to see it on many teams, just because of the vast use it got in ADV.

Jirachi was given away on bonus discs... maybe I'm just spoiled because a friend of mine gave me one when he worked at EB Games, but I had always considered Jirachi much more "available" than Celebi...

If not, I need to start transferring some more Jirachi's onto my Ruby...

 

[Pokézoni]

People being unfamiliar with opposing Pokemon says nothing about the metagame, it just shows they don't know everything. This kind of posts sickens me to death.

Much of the post actually showed that versatility can be useful. Sucker Punch can be surprising on ANY slow pokemon, not just the given Murkrow...

And versatile pokemon like Ambipom can be just as tricky as Salamence, or Ttar... causing your opponent much grief if they're not prepared to handle the right moveset.

Lots of pokemon can have some surprises up their sleeve... and knowing them all doesn't mean you know which one your opponent is packing.

 

[CT20]

D/P introduced the effectiveness of the Calm Mind Blissey set, since there was no easy way of getting an S-Toss Blissey unless you traded, the newer players who did not have ADV use Calm Mind Blissey more. Seismic Tossing versions are seen more, in my experience, with veteran players. The CM Version also uses Serene Grace more, and has the best chances against a Manaphy.

This opens up a gateway for Raikou, which sees almost no use, to potentially set up on the BoltBeamCM Blissey, unless it invests into SpAtk. Which many don't.

Heracross usually comes in the Choice Scarf variation, now that the competitive community has decided Gliscor was the best counter for it, and it is. Lucario almost sees more use, his handy resists to Dark and Rock, Tyranitar's STAB types, make it a good counter. More so, Lucario's unpredictability is a huge factor to his growing use. The Special Attacking set in particular is popular, with its ability to beat down Blissey. I would also like to see more HP Ice on Lucario, since the most popular switch in for fighting types is Gliscor/Cresselia. Most Swords Dance sets carry Crunch, so Cresselia may or may not be a big problem for Lucario depending on the popularity of Thunder Wave, which cripples Lucario.


Focus Sash is a problem, as I tried to outline in my lead pokemon and focus sash thread, but its a very easy problem to get around.

Gyarados is a threat, always, but to an experienced player its easy to get around. HP Electric Vaporeon is a potentially good counter, resisting Ice Fang and absorbing Waterfall, while HP Electric can surprise the Gyarados(Especially on WiFi, where Hidden power is rare). Vaporeon also gives Wish support, which should become much more valuable due to Life Orb and the new use of Sandstorm on Rock Types. Vaporeon sees about the same amount of use as the other "bulky" waters that saw their glory days in ADV.

WiFi battling is suspenseful, as the game announces leftovers recovery and sandstorm damage, the tension between battlers grows. I sometimes wish for the "undo move" option from Netbattle, as I've lost some due to mistapping the touch screen with my big fingers.

 

[chaos]

use your stylus?

 

[CT20]

lost it.

its a regular ds, most of the styluses sold are for DS lites nowadays, which don't fit into the stylus slot of the old DS.

i'm having trouble finding a new one.

 

[MultaniMan3000]

lost it.

its a regular ds, most of the styluses sold are for DS lites nowadays, which don't fit into the stylus slot of the old DS.

i'm having trouble finding a new one.

I had the same problem recently. I hate the way the Lite's feel in my hands, so I refuse to "Upgrade". Luckly, I moved the couch and found both of my stylus's. I used a toothpick, standard size. It fits in the stylus holder, and unless you're making poffins, dosn't harm the screen.

 

[Firestorm]

No, it's only 2-4. However, it does give a message when it ends like Encore.

Oops, my bad. 2 - 4. I know that the Pokemon who got Taunted gets a message, but does the person who used Taunt see the same message?

Also, I've been seeing a crapload of Arcanines for some reason. It's mostly from GameFAQs, but still. I really don't know the reason... All pack Extreme Speed of course. Haven't seen them use much else. Seen both the Flash Fire and Intimidate versions.

 

[Ness]

People being unfamiliar with opposing Pokemon says nothing about the metagame, it just shows they don't know everything. This kind of posts sickens me to death.

Well, of course, this goes without saying. This is the kind of advantage lesser-known Pokemon get early in the metagame. People see Ambipom or Honchkrow and don't know what to expect. It also wouldn't surprise me if people don't know their stats by memory either and what they specialize in. I had some guy today think that double hit was special because I used it on his Suicune after using Nasty Plot/Substitute on my Ambipom. Its not, and I used it to wither down his Suicune a bit before baton passing as it was just calm minding. He switched in his Blissey, I hit him with Double Hit, did a decent amount of damage and he was like "What? Double Hit is physical? Than why did you nasty plot?" He had no idea that I was going to baton pass.

Of course, as time goes on people will get more familiar with what to expect from the lesser known Pokemon. But in my 4 Wi-Fi battles today against people who knew what they were doing, I went 4-0 and beat teams consisting of:

#1: Salamence, Skarmory, Porygon-Z, Electrivire, Heracross, Metagross
#2: Mewtwo, Suicune, Weavile, Spiritomb, Metagross, Gengar
#3: Kyogre, Jirachi, Manaphy, Mew, Mewtwo, Deoxys
#4: Forretress, Salamence, Blissey, Gyarados, Electrivire, Gengar

Using: Ambipom(Lead), Yanmega, Magnezone, Honchkrow, Milotic, and Heracross

Some things I want to point out:

A.) Electrivire Motor Drive baiting is getting easier to predict. In battle #1 I had the Skarmory switch into my Magnezone(before he showed Electrivire) and in battle #4 I had Gyarados switched into my Magnezone. I knew something was up, so I Flash Cannoned in Battle #1 instead of attacking the Skamory with Thunderbolt and of course it Shed Shelled to Electrivire. Not only did I get a 80% damage or so hit but it helped swing the tide of the battle in my favor. In Battle #4 I wasn't going to risk getting EQ'ed so I switched to Honchkrow and of course he switched to Electrivire. This gave me the edge as I knew what was coming so I could either Sucker Punch or switch to give me an advantage.

B.) Speed Boost Yanmega 2HKO's just about everything short of Electrode, Special Walls and decent Special Defense Steels unboosted. Boosted via Nasty Plot Pass or Life Orb it can become deadly. Blissey or other Special Walls are still the way to take care of it, but if your Special Wall is gone watch out.

C.) Focus Sash is becoming a very popular item. It's hard to predict if a Pokemon has it, and when you find out its usually the hard way. I am sure everyone knew this already.

D.) I have been experimenting with Flame Orb Milotic vs. Leftovers Milotic. Milotic already gets Recover, so Flame Orb looks the way to go with her. Flame Orb will boost her defense to levels above or equal(need to check) her already good special defense.

E.) Blissey Watch: Honchkrow Sucker Punch(120 BP after STAB) with a critical hit does about 90% to Blissey. Take this info, because it means that if done right, Blissey can survive a critical hit 120 BP attack running off a 125 Adamant Max IV + Mav EV attack stat.

F.) Predicting is getting harder than ever. I have had some battles where each decision would make or break me. Thankfully today I chose right each time, but its no joke that if I chose the other way I may not have been so lucky. An example would be to Sucker Punch a Gyarados(predicting an attack) or use Substitute(predicting a dragon dance). I went with Substitute, and thankfully it used Dragon Dance. This allowed me to use Night Slash next turn on it, and finish it off with Sucker Punch. I can not stress how vital Honchkrow has been to my team.

G.) KNOW YOUR DAMAGE CALCULATIONS. This can only be helped by battling experience. Knowing how much approx. an attack will do is huge in a battle. It can very well mean the difference in winning a battle and losing a battle

 

[Mekkah]

A.) Electrivire Motor Drive baiting is getting easier to predict.

That depends entirely on the battler if it even depends on something, not on the metagame. ._.

D.) I have been experimenting with Flame Orb Milotic vs. Leftovers Milotic. Milotic already gets Recover, so Flame Orb looks the way to go with her. Flame Orb will boost her defense to levels above or equal(need to check) her already good special defense.

Leftovers is better. A lot better.

 

[Surgo]

I'd like to note that Focus Sash and other items are a hell of a lot easier to figure out if you have Stealth Rock helping you (and makes Focus Sash useless, but that's another story). I try to put Stealth Rock on all of my teams if only for this reason alone.

 

[Jibaku]

I don't get this, really. Taunt is not a Ninjask counter because it doesn't go through Substitute and Ninjask will always be able to get in :something: before the Taunt as its so insanely fast. The main reason I'd say Ninjask isn't used much is because Skarmory is guaranteed to blow it out now and you can't simply pass to Magneton anymore and say "no way out now kid". Or simply because people aren't training up a Ninjask first - they're trying out old favourites that improved a bunch, or new hyped Pokemon like Garchomp, Rhyperior and Electrivire.

It actually does. I've seen a Raticate Taunt through a Substitute before in PBR.

Also, I still think Manaphy is not uber lol. I'll explain everything later.

You're underrating Cresselia. Cresselia doesn't just wall physical attacks, it is also the safest way to wall these threats in D/P:
- Electivire
- Gyarados (with Charge Beam)
- Garchomp
- Medicham
- Machamp
- Salamence (and only pokemon who safely counters Mixmence)
- Dragonite
- Donphan
- Mamoswine
- Swampert
- Infernape (with Psychic)

Well, you aren't gonna be walling Gyara and Infernape at the same time most of the time

 

[Ness]

I'd like to note that Focus Sash and other items are a hell of a lot easier to figure out if you have Stealth Rock helping you (and makes Focus Sash useless, but that's another story). I try to put Stealth Rock on all of my teams if only for this reason alone.

This is why most people put the Focus Sash on their leads. Actually, each Focus Sash user I have faced(knowingly) was their lead. Though I agree Stealth Rock is good for Focus Sash countering regardless.

 

[Sand Alchemist]

If you start with Togekiss you're slowly but surely going through all standard Pokemon, I don't think that's a good idea.

One question, for curiosity. Who are all D/P standar Pokemon?

 

[Jibaku]

No, it's only 2-4. However, it does give a message when it ends like Encore.

yes it does.
my Infernape Taunted a Chansey while training, and was Swords Dancing up (I only have one more Close Combat and that was for Rapidash). After a few turns it said something about Taunt wearing off

 

[flashfox]

In terms of WiFi battling where from the majority of battles I've partaken in the accepted battling procedure is "no legendaries", you see basically no Stealth Rock, no Spikes, and the most used status is Toxic. Of course, this just could be me battling newer players, but some of them who had skill went for all out attacking + 2 walls with attacking potential (BoltBeam Bliss and Rhyperior)

 

[Synre]

In terms of WiFi battling where from the majority of battles I've partaken in the accepted battling procedure is "no legendaries", you see basically no Stealth Rock, no Spikes, and the most used status is Toxic. Of course, this just could be me battling newer players, but some of them who had skill went for all out attacking + 2 walls with attacking potential (BoltBeam Bliss and Rhyperior)

I'm pretty sure if you're not seeing Stealth Rock, are seeing a lot of Toxic, and for some reason are battling under 'no legendaries' instead of 'no ubers,' you're battling a bunch of morons.

 

[AyaImmortal]

Just wanted to point out, I havent been seeing much heracross as of late(actually none). Is there a reason for this?

 

[YJiang]

Thank God this topic is up. A few weeks ago, I suggested something like this so we could track the evolution of the D/P metagame, but you probably had this in draft before I made the thread :)

Also, one thing to consider about the current metagame is the availability of the Pokemon. Everyone knows Gyarados/Electivire is a "great" combo, but the reason why there are a lot more Gyarados is that it's easier to get a good IV/nature Gyarados than a good IV/nature Electivire. As you stated, Competitor will change that.

Also, and you made this point as well, people tend to go for more offensive teams not only because of the more offensively oriented nature of the metagame, but also because no one wants to sit through hours of

"Salamence's Intimidate cut Tyranitar's attack!"
[Animation]
"Tyranitar's Sandstream whipped up a storm!"
[Animation]
"Trainer withdrew Salamence!"
[Animation]
"Trainer sent out Suicune!"
[Animation]
"Trainer withdrew Tyranitar!"
[Animation]
"Trainer sent out Blissey!"
[Animation]
"Suicune is buffeted by the storm!"
[Animation]
"Blissey is buffeted by the storm!"
[Animation]
"Suicune's Leftovers restore some HP!"
[Animation]
"Blissey's Leftovers restore some HP!"
[Animation]

>_>

 

[Dreadite]

I had the same problem recently. I hate the way the Lite's feel in my hands, so I refuse to "Upgrade". Luckly, I moved the couch and found both of my stylus's. I used a toothpick, standard size. It fits in the stylus holder, and unless you're making poffins, dosn't harm the screen.

To everyone looking for Stylus replacements: Gamestop (beh) sells a Penguin branded stylus and screen cover set, comes with two of them for around 6 bucks. They're metal with rubber ends (very nice feel to them) and cheap enough. =) That's what I've done with mine, since I also hate the feel of the Lite.

(EDIT) Somewhat off topic I suppose, but still on one of the topics...

 

[Dark Android]

You forgot about how overlooked Heatran is. Its super-weak to EQ, but he messes up Skarmory, Bronzong, and Metagross(three big metagame threats) with STAB Lava Plume. Persee, its not as bad as one thinks. Its getting the correct nature and IV's thats the problem, but when 4th gen. competitor gets updated on NetBattle, expect a LOT of Heatran.