DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[umbarsc]

The best counter-attack there is:

"Nothing should be banned without good reason."

I have yet to see any, because of course I'm not counting "Every team will be a Hail team! Imagine Blizzard Jynx!! Stallrein!!!". We have not tested auto-weather in UU (besides a couple of short, confusing days), so we can only speculate its effect in UU, and therefore, we have no way of knowing what its effect will be. I can imagine Stallrein being possibly overpowering, and Shuckle and Cradily will be more annoying, but we have no way of knowing whether this will disrupt the metagame or not.

Before anything gets banned, we need some legitimate evidence, not just popular vote.

 

[ODDish]

well there's a pretty wide margin between instant and permanent weather and turn-induced weather that lasts 5 turns. Teams would HAVE to carry a weather changer in order to stop Hail Blizzard teams.

Actually Rain Dance in UU is almost as broken as auto-weather ...

 

[rkatzam]

Actually Rain Dance in UU is almost as broken as auto-weather ...

Rain Dance is far from broken with so many UU pokes immune to water attacks.. Also, common choice scarfers like Rotom and Primeape still outspeed base 55 Swift Swim pokes and below so it's not that hard to stop.

The best counter-attack there is:

"Nothing should be banned without good reason."

But there are good reasons, even stated by yourself. It -will- centralize the metagame that if you're not running a Hail/Sandstorm team yourself, you'd be forced to run a weather changer to stop the ridiculously defensive Shuckle/Walrein.
Other than that, it brings me back to the question - is auto weather even wanted? weren't there people out there arguing it takes everything that's unique about the UU metagame?

 

[phalanx]

rain dance in UU isnt as bad as people make out, I killed a kabutops in the rain with a persian, and the key differance is, rain takes a turn to set up allowing you to do something about it.

 

[ODDish]

Rain Dance is far from broken with so many UU pokes immune to water attacks.. Also, common choice scarfers like Rotom and Primeape still outspeed base 55 Swift Swim pokes and below so it's not that hard to stop.

The water absorbers may be able to switch in on Surfs but a significant number of them lose to various Rain Dancers one on one.

The common choice scarfers are again temporary solutions given their frailty and the fact that most Rain Dance teams are more than equipped to deal with them.

 

[Cynthia]

I don't want Snover and Hippopotas in UU and I don't want stuff like Chansey either. It kind of defeats the whole purpose, why play UU if you're just using lesser forms of OU Pokemon. Certain NFE's do ahve different abilities/higher stat/typing than their evolutions and hsould be considered, but UU and NFE are not one and the same.

 

[Stagnant]

I'm curious about Chansey though. Due the amount of fighting types in UU. Presuambly she can be used as setup fodder for more pokes than ones she can contend with.

However, Auto-Weather should definitely be a no go. It would certianly change UU no question to that but i certainly don't want to see StallRain and StallDilly on every other team. But, I do love contridicting myself, so I'm for testing of Auto-Weather (if NFE's are in consideration of being aloud).

 

[gengod]

The summary of what we've been discussing hasn't been posted for a while so i decided to update it and post it here.

Currently In Discussion:
NFE Pokemon

Banished to BL:
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir


Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
- Clefable, Scyther, Jynx, Leafeon, Ninetales (reinstated by Astrohawke)


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol, Cloyster, Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Shedinja (Very Low/Low)
- Venusaur (Very Low/Low)
- Weezing (Low/Average)
- Articuno (Low/Average)
- Miltank (Average)
- Aerodactyl (Average)
- Marowak (High/Average)
- Tauros (High/Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)

BL's suggested for testing/movedown before but were blocked.
- Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice),Flygon, Entei (rejected twice), Arcanine (rejected twice), Honchkrow, Torterra, Espeon, Exeggutor, Porygon2, Ludicolo (rejected twice)

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
- Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Scyther

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

Also isn't it about time we allowed Shedinja, Venusaur and Articuno? They have hardly had any opposition and and have been under consideration for quite some time.

Weezing has had a bit more discussion so i've upgraded his status in terms of opposition, although I don't see what harm his inclusion would have at this point. Aerodactyl and Miltank haven't been discussed much lately, but have both been sitting at Average in terms of opposition for quite some time now and at least in my opnion deserve to be tested now, especially now that there is a ladder.

Espeon, Exeggutor and Porygon2 have been moved to the blocked list.

For those new to this thread, please don't simply post opinions without reading through the thread. I'd like to reinterate what was mentioned at the beginning of the thread here as well.

Discussion Rules
Be sure to follow these simple guidelines at all times:

• All discussion will take place in this thread until further notice. Do not create new threads for the purpose of tier discussion.
• You MUST provide solid reasoning backed by competitive battling experience for your opinion on a given Pokémon. Making a statement like "mamoswine should be UU" alone without backing it up is NOT ALLOWED. If you opt not to justify your assertions, your post(s) WILL be deleted and swiftly infracted without warning.
• You must adhere to the stipulation that we are only discussing BL->UU and vice-versa for now; this is not the time nor place to complain that Blissey (or any other Pokémon) is uber, that Manaphy is not uber, or that because you think you maybe saw eight Scizors yesterday Scizor should now be OU.

Edit: Added Ludicolo to the blocked list.

 

[umbarsc]

For what it's worth, I suggested Ludicolo be tested and was blocked.

 

[Age of Kings]

Staraptor is threatening in the sense that nothing switches in safely. OF COURSE P2 can kill with with Discharge if it HASN'T switched in and is coming for a "revenge kill". The thing is, most of the times you'll have to sacrifice a pokemon to get another pokemon unscratched. And why the hell are you compating it with Swellow????????? It gets CLOSE COMBAT, something Swellow can only dream of, thus not getting walled by common steels and rocks. Jeez. 100 base speed (@jolly) is nothing to laugh at and is very fast in BL.

If you had replied to me with a reasonable explanation, I'd stop.. but you obviously didn't.

You're still ignoring most of my points and focusing on ONE example that has barely anything to do with anything, and isn't even the biggest threat. I've come to believe that whatever team you ran had some common weaknesses. I am comparing it to Swellow not in that way, but because they both have limited time on the field. LO+Brave Bird+move that gives -defenses wear it down really fast. Because of this it can't switch in either because nearly everything under the sun can cripple/kill it. There are almost no safe switch-ins for Staraptor to come in and reign terror as you mentioned, and while you can still argue "NOTHING CAN SWITCH IN TO IT!", that can be said for a lot of other things people aren't bitching about. Name me one thing it can surely switch in to (something common, of course); you mention "predicted Earthquakes", but everything that carries it either a) carries other strong move that can turn around and kick its ass; b) already has set up SR on the field. And you can predict too, so if you switch something and it guesses wrong, it dies. Whatever you switch in will likely pose a more immediate threat to it than you. Didn't I mention the utter lack of Choice items due to the heavy emphasis on set-up? Didn't I already mention BL's bias towards special sweepers, making Intimidate nearly useless? Didn't I mention that everything will find their own ways to outspeed everything else (be it BP, TR, Swift Swim)? Most people don't think the fact that it barely 2HKOs things (to give you some credit), in exchange for death is worth it, only to cause an early game disruption. It has little potential to sweep entire teams like many other threats for these reasons, and that's why it's not considered one of the huge threats.

Base 100 speed isn't exactly fast at all. Swift Swim, Baton Passing, Trick Room...they all screw it. (Truthfully, I think I'm one of only two people who has ever used a BL TR team due the 4 Regis screwing it up...) Let's see a comparative list of significant threats that can outspeed+kill/cripple it without these (Aero not included as people copying husk's team will make it OU soon again, I bet):

• Alakazam
• Charizard ties, but outspeeds with Salac Berry
• Crobat
• Electrode
• Espeon
• Floatzel
• Flygon ties, but in an exception, almost always packs Scarf
• Froslass
• Manectric
• Persian
• Raikou
• Rapidash

...and a lot of these are commonly used, and notice how several can utilize STAB SE moves. I omitted several other candidates, because they're situational.

In the end, you rely on theorymoning, while I back up my evidence with several months of raw experience in BL, and I still consider myself amateur. You rely on straight facts and calculations, when you don't take into account the human factor, and other facts that contradict what you say. Think outside of the box, and I'm done, because this is absolutely silly.

((Although admittedly, there should be more BLs discussion xD))

 

[rkatzam]

No, I don't rely on "theorymoning", I rely on actual experience. In your entire post you aren't saying anything new, just excusing yourself to think Staraptor isn't threatening, when in fact it really is. Of course anything can be beaten by prediction, of course there are faster pokes, of course salac berry charizard will outspeed it (come on, wtf?) - it still doesn't beat the fact that nothing can switch in safely. I can argue the same and tell you Staraptor can have Rapid Spin support, and that it can come on ghost/ground attacks and even other physical ones thanks to Intimidate. It seems like you think I'm using a one-bird-team, lol. For your so called "counters" (that can't switch in safely), I have 5 other pokemon on the team to handle them.

"Think outside of the box"? - I think Life Orb Staraptor is already outside of the box.

"You rely on straight facts and calculations, when you don't take into account the human factor" - so that means everyone who gives concrete calcs is to be taken not seriously because the "human factor" isn't considered? wth is that? pokemon is a game of statistics, prediction is a 50%-50% situation while calcs are solid. If you rather rely on "human factor", best luck to you!

As for special sweepers being the most threatening, why don't you start backing your own "experience" with calcs? For all I know, BL and below doesn't lack in special walling thanks to Regice, Slowking, Umbreon and friends.

 

[lincarnate]

My gut reaction is that Aerodactyl is too strong for UU, but after doing the damage calculations, I'm not so sure. (All are max attack, Jolly, with Choice Band.)

Rock Slide vs. 304 HP/440 Def Cloyster: 57.2 - 67.4%
Rock Slide vs. 244 HP/572 Def Shuckle: 55.3 - 65.2%
Rock Slide vs. 362 HP/328 Def Blastoise: 32.0 - 37.6%

Stone Edge vs. 362 HP/328 Def Blastoise: 42.5 - 50.0%
Stone Edge vs. 334 HP/372 Def Weezing: 40.7 - 47.9%

Earthquake vs. 344 HP/440 Def Aggron: 89.2 - 100%
Earthquake vs. 401 HP/300 Def Relicanth: 55.9 - 65.6%
Earthquake vs. 344 HP/350 Def Drapion: 55.8 - 65.7%
Earthquake vs. 354 HP/484 Def Steelix: 39.5 - 46.6%
Earthquake vs. 394 HP/270 Def Quagsire: 30.7 - 36.3%
Earthquake vs. 416 HP/258 Def Gastrodon: 31.4 - 37.1%
Earthquake vs. 304 HP/317 Def Hitmontop (after Intimidate): 23.3 - 27.6%

Ice Fang vs. 324 HP/308 Def Claydol: 44.1 - 51.9%
Ice Fang vs. 364 HP/328 Def Meganium: 36.8 - 43.4%
Ice Fang vs. 354 HP/350 Def Sandslash: 35.6 - 41.8%
Ice Fang vs. 334 HP/394 Def Leafeon: 33.5 - 39.5%

It certainly hits hard and can break through many UU walls, but it's not unstoppable, especially once you consider its SR weakness and that Electrode (Thunderbolt), Technotop (Bullet Punch), Lapras (Ice Shard) and Kabutops (Aqua Jet) can all revenge kill it with relative ease. I'm still not positive that it won't overpower UU, but I think it deserves at least a test.

 

[Cynthia]

I assume the above calculations are without Choice Band or Life Orb (I checked on metalkid's and the damage was higher) Also note that Adamant Aerodactyl still outspeeds almost evrything, only losing to Swellow and Persian. It loses to Electrode + or neutral speed nature but it's also far more dangerous.


The issue with Aerodactyl isn't that it's completely unstoppable(Quagsire/Sandslash/Gastrodon/ Defensive Hitmiontop are solid counters), but it might be just too fast to make it an excellent cleanup sweeper. I actually would support testing though.

Also I think all testing should start on the UU ladder after the end of the first month, in order to have statistics to compare against.

 

[lincarnate]

I assume the above calculations are without Choice Band or Life Orb (I checked on metalkid's and the damage was higher) Also note that Adamant Aerodactyl still outspeeds almost evrything, only losing to Swellow and Persian. It loses to Electrode + or neutral speed nature but it's also far more dangerous.


The issue with Aerodactyl isn't that it's completely unstoppable(Quagsire/Sandslash/Gastrodon/ Defensive Hitmiontop are solid counters), but it might be just too fast to make it an excellent cleanup sweeper. I actually would support testing though.

Also I think all testing should start on the UU ladder after the end of the first month, in order to have statistics to compare against.

The original damage calcs were off slightly (I made a typo in my calculations, using 453 attack instead of 463), but those are Jolly with Choice Band. Adamant would push some of those into 2HKO range with Stealth Rock. Of course, by switching to Adamant, you also risk being outrun and revenge-killed by other Aerodactyls.

I think you might be right about it being a potentially over-powering clean up sweeper, though. It could function as the Deoxys-S of UU, something that can't 6-0 a team by itself, but something that can definitely do some major damage in the late game.

 

[Mekkah]

After playing some matches of UU the Pokemon I feel that are most limiting are Swellow, and to a lesser extent Froslass. Basically, only Steelix, Aggron, Bastiodon, Probopass and Golem can take on the combination of Brave Bird/Facade. It's hard to wear its HP down from residual damage you are in mortal danger every single turn (when not using any of these). If he only got this power by using Choice Band, I would be pretty fine (I don't mind Dodrio much), but he can pick a new move every time due to [Status] Orb. Steelix himself I find questionable in UU, but as long as Swellow is there I will advocate his stay.

You could bring up that Ghosts are immune to Facade, but Swellow can also revengekill those with a faster Pursuit when he gets the opportunity.

Every match I played so far came down to whether my opponent had one of the aforementioned Pokemon or not, except one where my Swellow was surprised by a Scarf Scyther. The amount of enemies Swellow OHKOs is simply insane - he probably has the best offense of all allowed UUs now thanks to both high Spd and Guts'd high powered STAB.

The notion of Swellow hurts the amount of usable Pokemon, since I am either going to be forced to have a high chance at losing something (depending on whether I predict right) if I don't have one of the aforementioned Pokemon. I must either accept that, or use one of them, and that hurts team versatility. I don't think any other UU can match that.

Froslass is less impressive and I'll probably need to use it a bit more.

 

[Cynthia]

Swellow is very powerful but is walled by really any rock or steel type. Its SR weak and is almost always taking Flame/Toxic orb damage. Rips apart unprepared teams, but smart players always have a Swellow counter.

Froslass is very good. That said, dedicated special walls like Clefable still stop it, Lanturn also does well. Frosslass's SpAtk isn't that high either, it can't 2HKO without LO or Specs and almost never OHKOs.

 

[umbarsc]

In addition to what Mekkah listed, the following are pretty good Swellow counters:

- Omastar
- Relicanth
- Mawile
- Magcargo
- Rotom

Remember, Relicanth, Rotom, and Omastar aren't always used offensively. Not to mention that Swellow is taking 25% damage from the omnipresent Stealth Rocks as well as Burn/Poison damage.

So yes, you are "forced" to carry one of these counters or you will lose, but then again there are so many it's not exactly difficult.

 

[ODDish]

I never really found Swellow that much of a problem even before Steelix was moved down ...

To add to umbarsc's list, there is also Kabutops who can hit it with Aqua Jet.

On the other hand I'm still finding Clefable is still a complete bitch, and I'm really beginning to loathe Hitmontop surely the most whored thing on the UU ladder at the moment.

 

[Synre]

Obviously it's not like Swellow is just wandering around one shotting every Pokemon in the game with no fear of being killed, but realistically nothing iwth that kind of power is ever going to find its way into UU. It doesn't take that level of power to be too good for UU, and Swellow at best is probably toeing the line right now. I think we could go either way with it and not really be 'wrong' but I'd probably lean toward keeping it right now(admittedly with only a few days back messing with UU).

I'm having a hard time really figuring out which way I think we should go on this, I know when I talked to Mekkah on IRC this afternoon I was thinking it would be better to get rid of it(and Steelix), but I'm not as sure. Realistically it's only going to get stopped by priority moves, which pretty much every team is running at least one of, Choice Scarfers which are both common and harder for the Swellow to predict(and thus avoid), residual damage from it's held item and Stealth Rock and essentially every pokemon with a Rock or Steel typing. That's going to be probably 2-3 Pokemon on most teams(at least the way I've seen them constructed so far on the ladder) needed to deal with it, but all these Pokemon are also serving other roles. Steelix(and really most similar walls rocking Stealth Rock) can easily single handedly shut it down if given the opportunity, but realistically Swellow is best used in that late game cleaner spot Aerodactyl was mentioned to be destined for above. Admittedly you do probably "need" one of those Steel or Rock types to force it to come out lategame(and a lot of the Rocks mentioned are 3HKOd by Facade which really doesn't make them very reliable counters), but assuming you can force it to do so it's relegated to cleaning up late game and it really is only conditionally better than a Scarfer or Aerodactyl at doing that. If it pops out sooner that that with Stealth Rock up it's going to take at least 31% damage from showing it's face which is pretty debilitating as far as its chances to actually sweep. The only thing that really makes it seem kind of imbalanced to me is that if its fighting that's that aren't it's counter and that it is not the counter of it's still going to take down 2 or 3 more often than not, but I'm not sure you can really justify removing it just based on that.

I think looking at some of the Pokemon we're thinking about unbanning like Aerodactyl we see a fairly similar Pokemon, with the major differences being better defensive typing and trading less powerful STAB attacks for more variety with Earthquake to hit the Rocks/Steels that rape Swellow so hard and STAB Rock Slide to beat on the Ghosts. I think Aerodactyl will probably end up on the wrong side of the line, but it's probably worth testing and at least it would be an addition to the game that can at least revenge kill Swellow, even if it can't really switch in.


As far as most of the other Pokemon on the floor I think they'd be good enough to change the game a bit but most of them look like they'd fit in OK (Shedinja, Venusaur, Weezing, Miltank) although a lot of them are of similar power to stuff like Swellow and Steelix so it's likely a matter of whether or not it's better to keep all of them or remove all of them.





As an addendum since I didn't touch enough on either of them and feel I should have, Froslass and Steelix are two of the more dominating Pokemon in UU(even though I think there's a handful of less powerful Pokemon that are more common) and could probably be looked at in the same light as Swellow and the Pokemon that are potentially moving from BL to UU but thus far I've really only UUed with one team and my team is very strong against one and very weak against the other which causes my opinion of them both to be jaded, I'll probably post again about them once I switch up my group a bit to get a better feel on them.

 

[umbarsc]

Of course, a major factor in Swellow's tier placement is that people haven't realized that Swellow + Probopass rapes.

I'm sure everyone's noticed Steelix's popularity, but not necessarily its dominance, much like Blissey in OU (at least a few months ago).

 

[Slickee]

Of course, a major factor in Swellow's tier placement is that people haven't realized that Swellow + Probopass rapes.

I'm sure everyone's noticed Steelix's popularity, but not necessarily its dominance, much like Blissey in OU (at least a few months ago).

Swellow cant switch into fighting attacks though (or anything except for EQs). But Probopass is pretty bitchin anyway. :P

I really dont see what the big problem with Steelix is, what on earth is it supposed to wall? If it's not the Fighting, Ground, Water and Fire weaknesses that kill it, or the dismal special defense with the mediocre HP, or the lack of recovery, it's the absolute piss-poor speed that allow almost anything to get an extra attack before Steelix can lift his metal tail. Yeah, he can set up rocks, but so can a lot of things. And there are better phazers with less weaknesses that Steelix out there. His attack is not even that good. I really have never, ever had a problem with steelix on any of my teams, seeing as at least half of the guys I use have a SE attack on it, even though neutral attacks do the job just as good too.

 

[stvn]

Everyone's talking about Swellow, but I think Kabutops is an even more serious threat (yes, I'm bringing it again since almost no one cared first time :\).

with only 2 reliable counters (and even Poliwrath is a shaky one as I stated before, having to rely on a 70% accurate Hypnosis), with Rain support this thing is just TOO scary

If Swellow is being discussed while being walled by any Rock or Steel Type, I think we should look at Kabutops who is a lot more dangerous threat and 2HKOs everything with the exception of Quagsire.
Aqua Jet being in his arsenal makes him even more dificult to revenge kill (and that is the biggest problem besides Swift Swim).

 

[Cynthia]

I'll agree with stvn on the subject of Kabutops vs. Swellow. All the things mentioned above countered Swellow, while only Quagsire can stop Kabutops (Poliwrath has issues with Aerial Ace and often cannot OHKO with Brick Break.) Kabutops requires more setup, but setting up Rain Dance is not an impossible task. Along the same lines Omastar is nearly impossible to wall with the right set (Surf/Ice beam/HpGrass/Ancientpower), the only thing I found that could stop it was defensive Toxicroak. I'm not necessarily saying they should be banned, but it's something to consider.

 

[Synre]

Honestly for how good it is there really aren't many people using Kabutops so its another one of those Pokemon like Froslass that I didn't really want to touch on until I'd seen them in action a bit more but I can definitely see why it(and Omastar) would be dangerous.

That said I want to half preemptively point out that 'impossible to wall' isn't necessarily 'impossible to stop,' although while the latter should definitely be bumping shit up to BL it's kinda conditional with the former.

There's several Pokemon that can switch in on them on the right attack and force a switch due to being able to survive and OHKO in return, but I think both of these Pokemon are potentially more dangerous than Swellow since they don't suffer from the residual damage it does between the extra 12.5% from Stealth Rock and damage from held items, among other sources. At least Spikes hits the RBY Fossils, but those are so rarely seen...

I suppose there's also something to be said for the fact that neither of them can really dominate with Rain Dance support, but with the lack of autoweather in UU it's a little more difficult to get rid of than it would be with the options available in OU.


also

Swellow cant switch into fighting attacks though (or anything except for EQs). But Probopass is pretty bitchin anyway. :P

I really dont see what the big problem with Steelix is, what on earth is it supposed to wall? If it's not the Fighting, Ground, Water and Fire weaknesses that kill it, or the dismal special defense with the mediocre HP, or the lack of recovery, it's the absolute piss-poor speed that allow almost anything to get an extra attack before Steelix can lift his metal tail. Yeah, he can set up rocks, but so can a lot of things. And there are better phazers with less weaknesses that Steelix out there. His attack is not even that good. I really have never, ever had a problem with steelix on any of my teams, seeing as at least half of the guys I use have a SE attack on it, even though neutral attacks do the job just as good too.

Swellow isn't trying to switch into fighting attacks. The implication is that Probopass will take care of the Pokemon that walls Swellow using Magnet Pull which will let it raise hell.

Steelix is not a sweeper.

Steelix is not a special wall.


Steelix is a physical wall. It sets up Stealth Rock and absorbs physical hits. of course Steelix is going to die if you're letting him take special attacks - you don't tank special attacks with Skarmory in OU unless you need to, so why would you do so with Steelix here? Most Pokemon die quickly to super effective attacks. He's not trying to kill things with his subpar attack or tank surfs with his special defense, but his ridiculous defense combined with a workable movepool and hp is enough for him to do his job well against things that cant hit for SE damage like Swellow. It's not like he's even getting one shot by SE physical hits either, although with Life Orb and the Choice Items and more powerful Pokemon and attacks in general he's not what he used to be... which is why he's BL or UU and not OU.

 

[Cynthia]

I am so sick of Clefable.

Every match seems to be a stall war, me vs Clefable. And it's not like I don't pack a fighting type, but Clefable can WishProtect any choiced pokes and switch or stay in. Its dfenses are really hard to break, especially on the special side. And it can status/Facade things that come in and try to kill it.