Hmmm, I like this idea ;). In ADV was kinda popular and it would help us to find another wall against those strong fighting pokemon. Yep, his similar to Gliscor, but I think that he can be this only 'exception'. He would help alot with balancing UU. I prefer allowing Gligar much more then forcing Weezing to UU. Ok, here's my list of NFE's which I see in UU:This is the lack of switchin to the popular fighting type pokemon. Gligar can switch into every physical fighter with ease (barring the odd Ice Punch on the less common fighters and Poliwrath, although Wrath has his own specific set of counter). Maniac brought up the unpopular idea of Weezing in the metagame to handle fighting types and I think Gligar could handle this postion without upsetting the metagame too much. The huge amount of physical water moves is one example that states that Gligar would certainly not be impossible.
Larvitar - The only Guts user with STAB Stone Edge and Earthquake. For me interesting choice for Trick Rooms teams, something like 'Glass Cannon'. Thanks to his trait different from Pupitar and especially Tyranitar. And also have much different statistics then both of them. I agree, but it won't be used at all.
Pupitar - Really rare Shed Skin user, so different stats then Tyranitar and have different trait. I would see him as interesting Curse user thanks to his 100 defence, solid in UU. As Larvitar, Rock/Ground type doesn't help, but with that trait and Dragon Dance it can be used a bit.
Gligar - Just to help balance UU tier. No diference with Gliscor. I wouldn't allow it.
Seadra - Different type then his full evolution (lacks dragon type), he would be the only mono-type water Dragon Dance user. Being faster then Lapras and Altaria, but having worse defences makes him different from them. Also having unique Signal Beam and Octazooka as DD user helps him to be different. Also it doesn't have Swift Swift trait (like his fully evolution, Kingdra), but Poison Point and Sniper makes him different enough from Kingdra. And of course he has different stats. Its only useful set would be Drangon Dance, and Lapras or Altaria do it better. I don't mind.
Charmeleon - He would be the only fire-type Belly Drum user. Lacks flying type like his fully evolution, Charizard, which helps him alot against Stealth Rock. Too fragile, but Belly Drum and Dragon Dance helps.
Magneton - I know that he was discussed, but being faster then his fully evolution and having worse defences forces player to use another tactics for him. I think his different enough. Maybe to strong to UU, but we could give it a try.
Tangela - I'm neutral about Tangela, for me Tangela can be added. No problem, another bulky grass more.
Dusclops - Dusclops would help with UU problem having poor defensive ghosts and would make harder Rapid Spinning. Typical defensive pokemon, which has also much worse attack. Would be interesting. No way, it's too strong to UU, and will be really annoying to take down.
Dragonair - Shed Skin user, Dragonair would be the second dragon type (with Altaria). Much different from Dragonite. Sure.
Eevee - Of course allowed being different in every way then his evolutions. And it would make him the only UU Adaptability user. I agree, but who will use Eevee?
Togetic - Interesting, different poke then Togekiss. With good defences and poor another stats. He would be interesting Serene Grace user. There is no difference with Togekiss... The same as Gligar.
Shelgon - Interesting dragon mono-type pokemon, so different from Salamence (lacks flying type). Good defence, not bad attack. Also he has different trait then Salamence (Rock Head vs Intimidiate). Ok.
Yanma - Being unique CompoundEyes user (with Butterfree), worse defensive stats then Yanmega, still not that bad Special Attack. For me it would be also interesting addition in UU tier. Maybe I'm wrong, but it could work in the same way as Yanmega as leader, but with less Sp. Attack. It could be too strong to UU.
Well, Magneton and Dusclops will be too powerful, and likewize, I think things like Togetic and Eevee will be too weak to see any use.Hmmm, I like this idea ;). In ADV was kinda popular and it would help us to find another wall against those strong fighting pokemon. Yep, his similar to Gliscor, but I think that he can be this only 'exception'. He would help alot with balancing UU. I prefer allowing Gligar much more then forcing Weezing to UU. Ok, here's my list of NFE's which I see in UU:
Larvitar - The only Guts user with STAB Stone Edge and Earthquake. For me interesting choice for Trick Rooms teams, something like 'Glass Cannon'. Also combination of Guts + Rock Polish/Dragon Dance makes him interesting. Thanks to his trait different from Pupitar and especially Tyranitar. And also have much different statistics then both of them.
Pupitar - Really rare Shed Skin user, so different stats then Tyranitar and have different trait. I would see him as interesting Curse user thanks to his 100 defence, solid in UU.
Gligar - Just to help balance UU tier.
Seadra - Different type then his full evolution (lacks dragon type), he would be the only mono-type water Dragon Dance user. Being faster then Lapras and Altaria, but having worse defences makes him different from them. Also having unique Signal Beam and Octazooka as DD user helps him to be different. Also it doesn't have Swift Swift trait (like his fully evolution, Kingdra), but Poison Point and Sniper makes him different enough from Kingdra. And of course he has different stats.
Charmeleon - He would be the only fire-type Belly Drum user. Lacks flying type like his fully evolution, Charizard, which helps him alot against Stealth Rock.
Magneton - I know that he was discussed, but being faster then his fully evolution and having worse defences forces player to use another tactics for him. I think his different enough.
Tangela - I'm neutral about Tangela, for me Tangela can be added.
Dusclops - Dusclops would help with UU problem having poor defensive ghosts and would make harder Rapid Spinning. Typical defensive pokemon, which has also much worse attack. Would be interesting.
Dragonair - Shed Skin user, Dragonair would be the second dragon type (with Altaria). Much different from Dragonite.
Evee - Of course allowed being different in every way then his evolutions. And it would make him the only UU Adaptability user.
Togetic - Interesting, different poke then Togekiss. With good defences and poor another stats. He would be interesting Serene Grace user.
Shelgon - Interesting dragon mono-type pokemon, so different from Salamence (lacks flying type). Good defence, not bad attack. Also he has different trait then Salamence (Rock Head vs Intimidiate).
Yanma - Being unique CompoundEyes user (with Butterfree), worse defensive stats then Yanmega, still not that bad Special Attack. For me it would be also interesting addition in UU tier.
Widely Acceptable NFE's - I agree with it of course. These all NFE's I would like to see in UU tier ;).
That's all my opinion about NFE's in UU tier. Cheers.
This. Gilgar is not distinct and creating an exception for it just opens up all sorts of doors for other NFE's.--> I am against making "exceptions" in policy just for the sake of balancing. If we're going to have special rules about NFEs, they better apply to all of them.
That wouldn't be a problem if Rain Dance didn't last forever due to Damp Rock.or try parasect, absorbs the water for heal and as most rain dancers are deul type with rock, use a grass move, also means HP electric and grass wont ruin it.
The main problem with rain dance I have noticed is the way it is set up.. electrode, quick taunt and rain then explodes, you cant set up speed, sleep or basically prepare because of that taunt, switch and your poke gets blown up.
Oh wow, I got so caught up in the current NFE debate I forgot about the Kabutops issue. With what was said by the majority who posted on the issue I think it's safe to ban it.Also, I wanted to ask if there is any opposition to the banning of Kabutops? Of the 5 pokemon listed in "under careful observation" Kabutops is the only one who hasn't had any people posting for it to remain in UU. Is it safe to say that we can ban it come next month?
A Pokemon's performance in OU is irrelevant to this discussion. The question is whether it would be too dominating in UU, and in this regard I fail to be convinced, but many people say otherwise.Getting back to Zangoose, why is it in BL? It could see usage in UU, instead of being outclassed by the likes of Lucario or Garchomp in OU.
Why is Magneton too powerful for UU? Being shit slow with crap defenses I hardly see it dominating. It would be useful for trapkilling Steels but otherwise I don't see the big appeal.Well, Magneton and Dusclops will be too powerful, and likewize, I think things like Togetic and Eevee will be too weak to see any use.
I think we should allow all NFEs should be allowed, and treated like individual Pokemon. 95% of them won't have any impact whatsoever, and many of the useful 5%, such as Chansey, Magneton, Kadabra, Dusclops, Porygon 2, etc. will obviously be BL (Porygon 2 already is, and Chansey and Kadabra were in the previous gens). They won't be clones of their evolutions because UU is a completely different atmosphere to OU, so different strategies will be needed. Plus, Gabite may be a clone of Garchomp, but it's stats are so much lower it won't be hugely useful in UU. Likewize, Kadabra is just like Alakazam, but its important stats are so high that it'll be dominating in UU, whilst Alakazam sees little use in OU, so it won't make UU 'OU-lite'.
Don't you mean 'either only distinct NFEs, none at all, or all of them'? If so I agree 100%. Making certain exceptions to fit the metagame we desire is ridiculous.Either distinct NFE's or none at all.
Well of course. "Or All of them".Don't you mean 'either only distinct NFEs, none at all, or all of them'? If so I agree 100%. Making certain exceptions to fit the metagame we desire is ridiculous.
Despite their defenses i'm sure no Pokemon or small adjustments are going to simply remove or phaze out Kadabra and Haunter with Kadabra having base 120 Special Attack and 105 Speed or Haunter having base 115 Special Attack and base 95 Speed. Most common users of Pursuit in UU also have to be pretty wary when switching into either of them, which doesn't say that much for them directly stopping them.I also fail to be convinced that Kadabra and Haunter would be too powerful believe it or not. You say that they still have their important stats high, but 105 speed and 120 special attack does not mean automatic win, especially in a priority-infested metagame. When a Pokemon is flat out OHKO'd by an unSTABed Pursuit whether they switch or not they suddenly become a huge liability to the team. I might even be prepared to go as far as saying, on a hunch, that the metagame would very quickly adapt with small adjustments to phaze them out of competition almost completely.
I agree. Making exceptions to the rules to fit the metagame is pointless and will raise questions as to why we simply can't do this for more NFEs. Out of the three choices i'm more inclined to agree with the first two. Either allow none of them at all or only distinct ones. With allowing only disticnt ones we could probaly have to come up with a criteria with which we can use to determine wheter a NFE me be unique enough to warrant its use in UU.Don't you mean 'either only distinct NFEs, none at all, or all of them'? If so I agree 100%. Making certain exceptions to fit the metagame we desire is ridiculous.
Personally I don't think having a higher base statistic in an area needs to be a requirement. Also in addition to the criteria you posted maybe something along the lines of movepool differences allowing for a different play style (an example of that would be Togetic).Here's some possible criteria:
Different typing than fully evolved form
Different ability
Higher base statistic in an area
I don't think banning all NFE is a good idea, as that would mean we would have to ban Pikachu, Trapinch, Scyther, Vigoroth, and Clamperl for no real res=ason.