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DPP Analyses

Discussion in 'DPP Analyses' started by Oglemi, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    With BW came the slow "death" of DPP; however, DPP and its metagames are still played regularly, and DPP is still a fixture in major Smogon tournaments such as the Smogon Tour and SPL.

    Therefore, it is important that DPP analyses still be up-to-date and provide the best possible information for those looking to get into the generation.

    While DPP OU, UU, Uber, and LC are for all intents and purposes "complete," new strategies may still arise and that is what this forum is for.

    The activity of this forum will probably not be extremely high, but posting 'dibs,' on a Pokemon will still be helpful. Be sure to check out the contact list here so that you're analysis can get approved!

    Remember, this is a low priority project but each and every contribution is still valued. If a thread you post isn't good enough the first time, then feel free to re-write it and make it better!

    Ubers is the only tier atm that kinda needs stuff done, feel free to reserve them and work on them.

    Uber

    Deoxys-S - Full Revamp - Iconic

    Bronzong - Full Analysis
    Metagross - Full Analysis
    Tyranitar - Full Analysis - BKC

    OU

    UU

    Mesprit - SilentVerse

    LC
  2. TrollFreak

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    So, idk if I can post here or not (no reservation thread and what not D:<) but I can do Skarmory
  3. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    Yeah this is basically the reservation thread, go right on ahead TrollFreak
  4. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk
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    I'd like to write an OU analysis for Mismagius, should I reserve that here?
  5. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    Yeah Tomahawk, go ahead and start on it whenever.
  6. BKC

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    I'll take Tyranitar
  7. cartercr

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    I would like to do a re-write on Dratini, it needs a bit of cleaning.
  8. kokoloko

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    Okay since I ran out of cool mons to write about in BW UU, I might as well help out here.

    I'm looking at Azelf right now and it seems horribly out of date. The classic lead set is barely seen anymore, CB is by far the most common, and no one uses Scarf Azelf, so that should probably be moved to be an OO mention only.

    Flygon can probably use an update as well since afaik no one uses Toxic Stall or Mixed Flygon. Sets should probably be Scarf and CB/physical LO with everything else in AC/OO.

    (this is mostly from tournament play experience, not ladder, so I could be mistaken)

    So yeah I'll be working on these soonish.
  9. Tomahawk

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    I disagree. First of all, Mixed Flygon is very common against good players and is from my experience the second most common set after Choice Scarf. It's an excellent mixed sweeper, because unlike Dragonite it resists Stealth Rock, and it's also immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Roost is the icing on the cake, making it quite hard to kill for stall. STAB Draco Meteor and STAB Earthquake, with Fire Blast to deal with Skarmory makes it very effective. Toxic stall sucks though, I agree. Set order should probably be:

    - Choice Scarf
    - Mixed
    - Choice Band
    - Physical Life Orb
    - Screech ? I doubt this set's effectiveness with U-turn abusing Spikes just as well, but I'd have to test it first.

    About Azelf, standard Leads Azelf are still common enough. This is PO stats I'm using, but this seems fine because most DPP players play on that server it not wait a long time for each battle:

    Standard Lead is still more common than Choice Band. I agree with you though that Choice Scarf should probably be moved to OO. Besides removing Scarf, the analysis looks fine imo.
  10. LizardMan

    LizardMan porn director lizardman
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    Correct me if im wrong, but I don't like Colbur Berry Azelf's current EVs. Wouldn't 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spd be more beneficial?

    It would survive Jolly CB Azelf's U-Turn which is very important, since they are rather common in the lead position. It also can survive a Timid Roserade Leaf Storm and a LO Hydro Pump from Starmie just like the previous spread.
  11. kokoloko

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    @Toma - so are we sorting set order by how common a set is on the ladder or by how effective it is in actual play? Because if its the latter, then CB should be listed first for sure. Not to mention, you basically contradict yourself when you list Mixed Flygon before CB when CB is used more (I think? cba checking).

    As for Flygon, I have no problem leaving the Mixed set in, but I would certainly never list it before the CB set. It just does not hit hard enough. CB Fire Punch 2HKOs SpD Skarmory anyway. Speaking of CB, it plays similarly enough to be slashed in with the physical LO set (I did it for its BW UU analyses), so I'd probably do that as well.

    I agree with Lizardman on Colbur Azelf's EVs. The current ones are really shitty.
  12. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
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    Sure CB-Flygon is more effective if you can predict every move right but that almost certainly wont be the case.

    Id say both sets (mixed and CB) have their perks and i think mixed Flygon is easier to use and thus should be placed for CB (easier to use in: has recovery, doesnt need to predict to beat Skarm, etc.).

    Physical Life Orb Flygon is pretty bad though (tried it and honestly its only advantage over CB/Scarf is Roost... and Fly is better of hitting hard and fast than trying to stall something out), because it has problems breaking through common defensive Pokemon (Gyarados, Rotom-A, etc. pp. So either take it out, merge it with CB or just put it last.

    Screech doesnt deserve its own set a mention in OO/AC (idk which one) should suffice. And yeah i tried it - it was shit.
  13. LizardMan

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    Seconding what you said about Mixed Flygon. It is especially useful vs more defensive teams with pokemon like Protect Heatran, where Mixed Flygon would really appreciate the ability to switch attacks.
  14. Tomahawk

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    Okay kokoloko, I think it should be listed in order of effectiveness, which means CB > Standard Lead. However, you claimed that Standard Lead is barely seen anymore and CB is by far the most common, which is simply not true. CB is better though. Btw, be sure to mention the 144 Atk / 112 SpD / 252 Spe spread which 100% beats Starmie leads.

    Also, Flygon does need an update, and so does Azelf. I personally think Mixed > CB though. First of all, it doesn't have to predict as much like Conflict and LizardMan said. Also, it does hit hard enough from my experience. The only OU mons that can really wall it are CurseLax, Vaporeon, CroCune, and RestTalk Gyarados. Besides that there isn't really much that can take its attacks easily. 100 / 80 base attacking stats aren't impressive, but just enough to make STAB Draco Meteor and STAB Earthquake work.

    Btw, I agree with the change in EVs for Azelf.

    But yeah, go for it with the updates, I think you should post the threads and then people can discuss there, would be a more appropriate place to talk about this.
  15. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    Just posting to say that this was actually one of the very last things to get QC approved in OU analyses before the close of DPP, so I'm almost positive the set is effective to the point where it would deserve an analysis.
  16. cartercr

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    Going to have to drop Dratini, I ended up being way to busy to write it, maybe I'll pick it up later.
  17. george182

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    1) Rotom-W

    I think the defensive sets need a change of ev's slightly, because they suggest 48 speed ev's, which to me seems completely pointless. The page currently says:
    Now I'm assuming that "after an agility" is a typo, but even so Empoleon (and any agility user that can't reach 247) always uses a speed stat of 209. Not to mention the rise of CM Suicune basically killed off Agility Empoleon anyway. Empoleon was 42nd on the useage list last month, with a percentage of 3.89%, it might as well be UU.

    http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Past%20Stats/march-2011/OverUsed%20Gen%204/index.html

    But due to the rarity of 209 agility pokemon in the current metagame anyway, probably due to scarf Flygons prominence, I recommend the following ev spread:

    252 hp / 252 defence / 4 sp.def

    A basic max defence ev spread to help against Pursuit users, U-turners and threats such as Gyarados, Breloom and Metagross. If you really want some speed ev's then use 252 hp / 248 def / 8 speed, giving Rotom a speed stat of 210 beating the old 209 agility users.

    2) Flygon

    Screech Flygon is terrible, mainly because screech is a terrible move that doesn't even get 100% accuracy. Consider the fact that Mix Flygon and Choice Band Flygon can achieve the same wall breaking results without the need for a set up move (if you can call screech that?). Then there is the fact that even if Flygon predicts the switch correctly and screeches the switch in, it then has to predict again if the opponent will stay in. This heavy prediction reliance means it's not actually any good at forcing switches, the main aim of the set. It also makes it very unreliable. It's also almost entirely reliant on entry hazards being up, otherwise the opponent can just keep switching, racking up life orb damage and Flygon's damage output is pitiful without him landing a screech first.

    The damage calculations shower Flygon in too much false glory when you consider that you can't have Screech / Earthquake / U- turn / Dragon Claw and Stone Edge and even after a screech Flygon is unable to OHKO a lot of pokemon anyway. Then also consider that Screech is not a stat boosting move, Flygon cannot abuse it to sweep, only to cripple one pokemon (and only then if your prediction is right and the opponent stays in). This Flygon set also offers extremely little defensively to a team.

    The useage Stats for Flygon (from last month) show the sets in the following order:

    - Physical Choice Scarf
    - Mix Flygon
    - Mix Choice Scarf
    - Choice Band
    - Physical Life orb
    - Toxic Stall
    - Choice Specs

    http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Past%20Stats/march-2011/OverUsed%20Gen%204/330.html

    No screech set on there at all and if you check the Global move useage, screech is only used on 1.05% of Flygons (it's more common for Breloom to use leftovers 2.19%). I really think the screech set needs removing from the site. The inclusion of Physical Life orb is also questionable when the you consider how much better the Mix Life orb and Choice Band sets are. But anyway, Screech Flygon should be remove because it's not a very effective set, it's not commonly used and it's unreliable due to it's heavy reliance on prediction.
  18. Tomahawk

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    george, first of all, you're posting in the same thread twice. This is where small subjective changes should go, and this thread is for the Flygon update.

    Onto your actual content, I agree with you that 219 Agility users don't really exist. However, Agility Empoleon has 216 Speed, so an EV spread of 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe would likely be better to outspeed that Empoleon.

    As for Screech Flygon, its set has been removed and moved into Physical Attacker's AC.
    Mix Choice Scarf is Choice Scarf with Fire Blast, which goes in one set with standard Choice Scarf. Choice Band and Physical Life Orb are combined in one Physical Attacker set as well. Toxic Stall isn't really good, and pretty much completely outclassed by Gliscor so it's not getting a set. Neither is Choice Specs, it's rather weak and Kingdra is mostly better if you're looking for a Specs Dragon-type.
  19. george182

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    Oh I do apologise, I posted there before about some outdated ev's and they told me to post here.

    Thats true about empoleon, although a speed stat of 216 is also pointless as no one uses scarf Togekiss anymore and using agility vs a +1 dragon dance (Gyarados/Dragonite) is risky as they can just DD again. But I guess this isn't the place for that. As for Rotom there is no point outspeeding Empoleon because the agility set just isn't very common any more and agility Empoleon vs Defensive Rotom isn't a very common match-up at all as they can't safely switch into each other.

    I only commented on Flygon because the screech set is still on the Flygon page.

    Just to clear up, by mix scarf Flygon I was referring to the set with Dracco meteor/Fireblast/Earthquake/U-turn it also has a different ev spread and nature to the main scarf set. It does have it's uses, mainly the use of a powerful dragon move without being forced to stay in, solving the problem of mind games against Dragonite and Kingdra. But overall its not a great set because it's attacks are all incredibly weak, you have to split ev's and have a defence or sp.defence lowering nature.

    If physical life orb deserves a mention then I think the mix scarf set does as well. At least the mix scarf set has a niche over the other sets.
  20. Tomahawk

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    I'll revamp Deoxys-S!

    By the way, is it still fine to post individual sets?
  21. Magicxgame

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    Some of the Uber analyses need to be more concise. For example, Blissey's Wish set and Mew's first two sets are ridiculously long. I used to be fairly active in DP Ubers, and was on the old ShoddyBattle Top 50 leaderboard under the name MagicBarrier (I believe I peaked somewhere around 30, though I can't remember :\), so I'd be willing to revamp some of the overly long analyses. I'd start on Mew.

    A couple of the UU analyses also need to be trimmed down, but the Pokémon are NU anyway and I barely have any experience in UU.
  22. sandshrewz

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    The analysis is already completed and.uploaded here lol >.>
  23. LucaroarkZ

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    I didn't see that sorry. I'll just delete that post lol

    That does bring up a good point though; doesn't this OP really need to be updated?
  24. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    ugh making me do stufffffff
  25. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    i will do Forretress

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