Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings V2

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here's a possible "DPP OU leads viability rankings" made with dadoux since it was his idea. i wasn't very keen to take the same format as the existing metagames viability rankings threads but it finally looks good and it might be a great complement to this thread.

S Rank
  • Aerodactyl
  • Azelf
  • Jirachi
  • Machamp
  • Metagross

A+ Rank
  • Dragonite
  • Empoleon
  • Heatran
  • Tyranitar
  • Zapdos

A- Rank
  • Infernape
  • Mamoswine
  • Roserade
  • Starmie

B+ Rank
  • Crobat
  • Froslass
  • Gallade
  • Gengar
  • Gliscor
  • Gyarados
  • Swampert

B- Rank
  • Celebi
  • Flygon
  • Hippowdon
  • Nidoqueen
  • Smeargle
  • Uxie
  • Weavile

C Rank
  • Breloom
  • Bronzong
  • Forretress
  • Lucario
  • Skarmory
  • Raikou
  • Togekiss

D Rank
  • Ambipom
  • Blissey
  • Hariyama
  • Ninjask
  • Yanmega
 
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I dispute Hippowdon being B- Rank. Hippowdon is an amazing tank with the right EVs, whips up sand, can get up Stealth Rock reliably.....and can threaten a lot of other leads with the right moveset: Jirachi and Metagross run from EQ, Aerodactyl fears StoneEdge and actually Ice Fang for that matter, Azelf hates Crunch, Machamp it can at least get up Stealth Rock. Even if you have problems with it it's definitely better then B-.

Also Lucario should be ranked: thanks to Counter and a great movepool its one of the best anti-leads around.
 
How often do you see an hippo with EQ / SR / Stone edge or ice fang / Crunch?

Gallade / Machamp are doing the same job than lucario but even better, i don't like it as a lead.
 

Jirachee

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I dispute Hippowdon being B- Rank. Hippowdon is an amazing tank with the right EVs, whips up sand, can get up Stealth Rock reliably.....and can threaten a lot of other leads with the right moveset: Jirachi and Metagross run from EQ, Aerodactyl fears StoneEdge and actually Ice Fang for that matter, Azelf hates Crunch, Machamp it can at least get up Stealth Rock. Even if you have problems with it it's definitely better then B-.

Also Lucario should be ranked: thanks to Counter and a great movepool its one of the best anti-leads around.
Hippo isn't that great of a lead. It's fairly common but imo that's by default: the teams it's mostly used in (stall and balance) usually won't run a dedicated lead so they'll just lead with whatever can lead on their team, and since Hippo isn't complete garbage at it it'll do it. Hippo doesn't do so well against most top leads, because the moves it needs to threaten them (ie Stone Edge and Crunch) are suboptimal choices almost all the time. Hippo already ALWAYS runs Earthquake, Slack Off, and Stealth Rock, so your last slot is limited in options, and since Roar and Ice Fang are the best choices it'll pretty much always run them. It's very predictable and easy to counteract which means it's very likely to be forced out right from turn 1. Keep in mind, B- isn't actually a bad rank, it's just that other things are better, which is Hippo's case.

Lucario really isn't one of the best anti-leads around, and here's why.

There are 3 types of leads in the metagame: A) Hazard leads that try to get their stuff up ASAP (such as Aerodactyl, Froslass, or Roserade), B) U-turn leads that grab momentum from turn 1 (like Zapdos or some Jirachi), or C) Anti-leads that try to kill the opponent's lead (like Dragonite, Machamp, or Gallade)

Lucario is a type C lead which is what you should compare it to, and when you look at the 3 mons I just mentioned, you realize they do the same exact thing as the Lucario set you mentioned. These leads try to maximize their coverage so they can kill as much stuff as possible; if they are forced out, they have failed their job. Bad lead match ups happen but they're not too common for these leads. The set you described has Counter, which leaves Lucario without either Crunch or Ice Punch / Stone Edge, which really increases the amount of leads that will force you out. That's not very good, but you could decide to go without Counter too, which basically leaves you as an inferior Gallade. Gallade's typing is much more appropriate as a lead because it has a winning match-up against Machamp as well as other popular leads. Then, you have Lucario's most critical flaw compared to the 3 other leads I mentioned: once it has switched out, it is useless. Lead Lucario is very underwhelming if it is forced out because it's a waste of a slot. If say, Dragonite faces Tyranitar, it only has to switch out to the appropriate Pokemon and it's not too big of a loss, because it's an excellent Pokemon in mid-game situations too. Both Machamp and Gallade are a lot less viable than Dragonite once they have switched out, but they're acceptable. Lucario is not very threatening without a boosting move / item which means you're probably better off using something else.

Also thanks dadoux / boudouche , I'm going to add your lead rankings to the OP ASAP :)
 
Also even if hippo has a move to kill aero (which it usually doesn't) it still loses since it dies having sr on the field while you don't and they bring in breloom or something to force you out. I definitely chalk that up as a win for aero.
 
You're welcome bro'

Yeah hippowdon is not a bad lead because you have to lead with something when you play hardstall, and hippowdon is the type of mon you can bring 1st turn without risking anything, i mean i'd rather lead with it than switch into it, if i play it i need sand asap or i'll be playing pert middle game, hippowdon middle game doesn't sound right in my head. It's like the best lead in stall if you're not imperfectluck (SR blissey lgi) but compared to every other stall it's not that good.
 
Ambipom? Like if you put pure shit leads like that in D rank, you might as well bump up Raikou / Yanmega to C rank cause they aren't absolutely terrible. Raikou is actually pretty nice, look at the top 10 matchups:

  • : Thunderbolt + ExtremeSpeed KOs, it still gets up SR but you have a full health Raikou which can be pretty threatening.
  • : same as Aerodactyl.
  • : beats Choice Scarf Jirachi, and does ok vs 3 attacks + sr jirachi. not too great, but if they don't have too much bulk, tbolt can 2hko. and jirachi usually won't 2hko raikou.
  • : You beat him with Extrasensory + Lum Berry. (or 60% of the time with Thunderbolt).
  • : 75% chance to 2HKO with Thunderbolt, only leaving it 1 turn to do shit. earthquake usually ohkoes though if they have it. which makes this matchup p annoying

A+ Rank
  • : HP Ice usually OHKOes.
  • : Thunderbolt OHKOes. If Sash, they get 1 turn.
  • : Tbolt 2HKOes Naive Tran. 49% chance to 2HKO Timid. (w/o max hp). aura sphere 2hkoes every common form of lead tran (bar spdef) earth power won't ko, so they can usually only sr or explode.
  • : you lose to scarf, (but you can damage it a lot if you have aura sphere). if you have aura sphere, sash can only do 1 move, if you have tbolt you can't do shit.
  • : you resist both its stabs, specs heat wave will 2hko, but you are faster and will also 2hko.
not a single bad matchup, except tyranitar. move it up to something like b- rank imo
 
Raikou is not bad but it gives me the lucario lead effect, like it won't really do shit in the middlegame, Zapdos keeps the momentum with u-turn, hits way harder, can heal, doesn't need sash and is an all-around scary pokemon. Raikou is pretty scary but with sash / lum it's not that awesome, especially with a rash nature

Raikou sounds like a poor man's Zapdos to me, and the fact that you have to run rash for Espeed / Aura sphere is not great. D is maybe pretty harsh yeah, maybe C or B- if we are being really generous
 
oops. yeah i've been very hard on raikou... but i don't think it deserves to be ranked B- even if your (tomahawk) arguments are solid because its just easily predictable, hasn't taunt / hazards and its just not a fearsome attacker. the only surprising thing it can do is setting screens but azelf and uxie are just better for this job. C imo.
 
Raikou is not bad but it gives me the lucario lead effect, like it won't really do shit in the middlegame, Zapdos keeps the momentum with u-turn, hits way harder, can heal, doesn't need sash and is an all-around scary pokemon. Raikou is pretty scary but with sash / lum it's not that awesome, especially with a rash nature

Raikou sounds like a poor man's Zapdos to me, and the fact that you have to run rash for Espeed / Aura sphere is not great. D is maybe pretty harsh yeah, maybe C or B- if we are being really generous
well i can understand the lucario effect, but tbh raikou is still a p good mon. like, cm raikou doesn't rely on the setup nearly as much as sd lucario. electric stab is always p good, and raikou is p powerful without a boost as well (115 satk and a boosting nature). but yeah i can understand the point

well i wouldnt really agree that it's a poor man's zapdos, just espeed means it beats a lot more. also, rash for espeed is not really a big deal imo. tbh, that's the nature i would run anyway, since you still outspeed timid zapdos, and you need the power for the 2hkoes. and you can drop either def or spdef, and you like the def for priority and non-stabed earthquakes.

oops. yeah i've been very hard on raikou... but i don't think it deserves to be ranked B- even if your (tomahawk) arguments are solid because its just easily predictable, hasn't taunt / hazards and its just not a fearsome attacker. the only surprising thing it can do is setting screens but azelf and uxie are just better for this job. C imo.
Fair enough. C works for me.
 
I think Empoleon is the most versatile lead pound for pound 1 v 1 lead in DPP OU. Loses to Zapdos but it can kill, force out, or deny Stealth Rock against pretty much every other common lead. It beats leads dedicated to winning matchups (Machamp and non CB Dragonite) while also having access to Stealth Rock. The set I am thinking about is that Hydro Pump/Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Stealth Rock Empoleon with a lot of speed EVs.

Hippowdon should also be ranked higher due to the attacking leads not beating it nearly as well as the other leads, access to sand, and a very reliable Stealth Rock against the non taunters. I'd say he should be A- or A+ rank easily, and the only thing keeping him from being higher is Taunt, the lack of offensive prescense, and because it doesn't fit on many teams.

I think Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Swampert are all ranked correctly.
 
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Interviewer: What's your thoughts on Life orb aerodactyl?
Generic gen 4 player: ZOMG THE BEST FRIGGIN POKEMON IN ALL THE LAND

Interviewer: Do you use it a lot then?
Generic gen 4 player: Use it? *awkward laugh* No.

#aerodactylhype
lol +1

I also found it strange that it was said that it's hard to rank Azelf as it is a lead 90% of the time but the same was not said for Aero. I'm on PO and PS everyday exclusively playing Gen 4 and in the last few months, the only non-lead Aero's I've faced were a CB Aero which did some surprising work on me, as I lacked a rock resist, and one SubRoostToxic Aero. But then maybe that isnt where the good battlers are, I guess. I see Replays from Smogon Tours but I dont play there, mainly cause I dong know how to.

Also, regarding the idea of lead rankings:

The general idea of the topic is to rank each DPP OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Flygon can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Skarmory can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Heatran can be can be ranked in S tier as a versatile threat. These are just examples, they may actually not end up being true."
I also want to +1 lizard backing Empoleon, coming from someone who called Empoleon overrated in the last viability rankings thread. He definitely works great as a lead.


Oh and as for Raikou... i use him quite a bit and his only usable sets honestly are the Choice sets, especially Scarf. You really cant run CM these days with all the Tyranitars and ScarfFlygons running around. The lead set, I'm not as confident as I am when saying CM isnt viable these days, but from my experience ( since Ive not seen anyone else running it ) it is more effective on paper. Raikou is great as revenge killer but thats all he can consistently run with great effect, in my opinion.
 
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I think starmie should be higher up the lead list. It can prevent stealth rocks with rapid spin and it has a good lead match up. But it's main selling point is that it will still cause pressure if the opposing lead is forced out.
 
I think Empoleon is the most versatile lead pound for pound 1 v 1 lead in DPP OU. Loses to Zapdos but it can kill, force out, or deny Stealth Rock against pretty much every other common lead. It beats leads dedicated to winning matchups (Machamp and non CB Dragonite) while also having access to Stealth Rock. The set I am thinking about is that Hydro Pump/Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Stealth Rock Empoleon with a lot of speed EVs.

Hippowdon should also be ranked higher due to the attacking leads not beating it nearly as well as the other leads, access to sand, and a very reliable Stealth Rock against the non taunters. I'd say he should be A- or A+ rank easily, and the only thing keeping him from being higher is Taunt, the lack of offensive prescense, and because it doesn't fit on many teams.

I think Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Swampert are all ranked correctly.
Empoleon doesn't really win against Machamp, since you can just die from hitting yourself while machamp will still be full hp, (SR vs Dynamic punch, failed hydro pump then Dpunch again, or bullet punch is enough if not chople) but yeah it's a great lead, S is maybe a bit too much because he is pretty slow for a lead and stuff, A+ is good for me
 
I'd probably Hydro Pump twice since dealing with the Machamp is more important. Since if you get lucky, you can kill Machamp and SR later.

After thinking about it, I think A+ is fine. I think Empoleon should be using Chople Berry in the current metagame. Better later on in the game too. Focus Sash is good against Spec'd Heatran, Mamoswine, and Zapdos. (Still wouldn't stay in on Zapdos, but the merit still exists.)

Badabing on my team you mentioned, I usually use mono attacker sleep talk Kingdra. Some of my friends who may have used it probably made the switch to the more offensive Kingdra.
 
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Why is Blissey even on the list as a lead? I thought it was commonly accepted that IPL used it on his stall team to troll or for a psychological advantage when he was the first guy to do it while he laddered. It's a gimmick.
 

Mix

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Uhm, for leads ranking you can see for Infernape in A/A+, it's a very good leads, it can set and with Close Combat/Fire Blast can kill the best leads like tyranitar, heatran, jirachi.
 

aVocado

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Uhm, for leads ranking you can see for Infernape in A/A+, it's a very good leads, it can set and with Close Combat/Fire Blast can kill the best leads like tyranitar, heatran, jirachi.
I don't think you wanna be packing Flare Blitz on Lead nape, which I assume would carry sash as all lead napes should. You would be breaking your own sash with the recoil lol.
 
Cant help but feel like the A-rank is slightly too big, it's bigger than S/A+/A- combined.

The only one I can see moving up is Scizor (Granted Im pretty noob at the meta-game, and scizor might have gotten lucky more than a few times, but I might be wrong).
 
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