Magic Mirror Espeon doesn't have access to Heal Bell, so it probably shouldn't be mentioned unless you think a Synchronize set is worth it. Espeon can, however, set up Dual Screens and lure in Scizor, which is worth mentioning.
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Dragonite (Analysis)
- Thread starter lulzer
- Start date
So... now DNite is the best Drizzle sweeper (not counting normal rain with swift swim). Interesting!
[SET]
MixNite (Rain)
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Surf / Thunder
move 3: Superpower / Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Quiet
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Yeah, Inner Focus with Superpower is better than Mult-Scale and Brick Break. One bulky hard hitting mo'fo. Hurricane is super spam-able, with a nice 30% confuse rate and good neutral coverage against everything. Surf is a strong hit against the steels and rocks that resist your Hurricane, or Thunder can be for Buru, who is a pain for some rain teams (while also absolutely manhandling Skarmory). Roost to abuse that huge bulk. I'd rather see this guy bulky than fast personally, since to get above Gliscor you need an awful lot of investment and lower your respectable defenses. This spread gives you 379 HP, lowest life orb recoil with the extra points dumped into Speed to outspeed Skarmory and Buru outspeeding Skarmory.
MixNite (Rain)
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Surf / Thunder
move 3: Superpower / Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Quiet
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Yeah, Inner Focus with Superpower is better than Mult-Scale and Brick Break. One bulky hard hitting mo'fo. Hurricane is super spam-able, with a nice 30% confuse rate and good neutral coverage against everything. Surf is a strong hit against the steels and rocks that resist your Hurricane, or Thunder can be for Buru, who is a pain for some rain teams (while also absolutely manhandling Skarmory). Roost to abuse that huge bulk. I'd rather see this guy bulky than fast personally, since to get above Gliscor you need an awful lot of investment and lower your respectable defenses. This spread gives you 379 HP, lowest life orb recoil with the extra points dumped into Speed to outspeed Skarmory and Buru outspeeding Skarmory.
Leftovers heals after Sand damage, so Multi-Scale is still functional (although, clearly Dragonite prefers to be in non-damaging weather).
-Zane
Not necessarily true. The anti-lead Dnite is fine with Life Orb Multiscale, as it's slow enough to take a hit with Multiscale still activated and appreciates the power from Life Orb to 2HKO many leads. Things that beat leadNite with Multiscale activated can eat a stronger ExtremeSpeed instead of a normal one.
Erm, Multiscale would be ruined with Life Orb (or any non-Leftovers item) in the Sand, too. Sorry, I'm just not really understanding what you mean. The point to using Leftovers on a lead set is to get in a powerful hit, and survive one as well. Life Orb is actually okay on sets that aren't defensive, considering that they'll have the force to KO an opponent before being taken down, itself. The point to Multi-Scale is to either tank hits with Roost and Thunderwave and stall 'em out, or survive a hit, almost guaranteed, before going down.
Just saying that Sandstorm is an irrelevant factor, considering it's fixed with Leftovers, and you're already taking a Multi-Scale reduced hit and attacking the opponent with Life Orb.
-Zane
Uh... sand wont do nothing to Multi Scale if you switch only when a poke is fainted. The damage is applied at the end of the turn, that means Multi Scale will take the hit, you will boost with DD or do whatever you want and only then Sandstorm will kick in.
LO is slashed on most sets due to the fact you only need Multi Scale one turn if you are boosting with a DD, if you are not doing it, you're certainly slower and Multi Scale will take the hit for you anyway.
LO is slashed on most sets due to the fact you only need Multi Scale one turn if you are boosting with a DD, if you are not doing it, you're certainly slower and Multi Scale will take the hit for you anyway.
Dragonite's potential as a Trick Room Sweeper should be mentioned, as it hits sweepers in TR and covers Roobushin and Nattorei outside as well. Something like
Dragonite
Life Orb / Lefties
Quiet 252 ATK 252 SPATK 6 HP
Extremespeed
Outrage / Dragon Claw
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Also, how about mentioning Red Card on Bulky DD set? You come in and DD on their switch and then DD again as red card and Multiscale crush their counter.
Dragonite
Life Orb / Lefties
Quiet 252 ATK 252 SPATK 6 HP
Extremespeed
Outrage / Dragon Claw
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Also, how about mentioning Red Card on Bulky DD set? You come in and DD on their switch and then DD again as red card and Multiscale crush their counter.
TR strategies are a gimmick to mention on those who don't even have the move. With that logic, anyone could be a potential TR sweeper. What you gave is just a slower mixed set. If you're never able to get TR activated (or it runs out when Nite needs it), then you're stuck slow Pokemon who'll be killed in the next turn after Multi-Scale has been used/bypassed.
I honestly don't know much about the Red Card yet, but though it might be usable on a DD set, it looks rather hit or miss. I'd much rather use the Life Orb or Leftovers.
I honestly don't know much about the Red Card yet, but though it might be usable on a DD set, it looks rather hit or miss. I'd much rather use the Life Orb or Leftovers.
You're right; LeadNite doesn't need leftovers because it doesn't have to switch in. On set where it does, however, It generally always wants lefties to have the ability to switch into SS and still have Multi-Scale intact.
Have some people already forgotten about 4th Gen, when Nite didn't even have Multi-Scale? Why is the Life Orb being argued about whether it's viable now?
And the discussion is about sandstorm viability... if you switch, you take a hit and then sand, if you switch after a KO you take sand on the end of the turn and again it doesnt matter.
Okay so I think the mixed attacker should have Super Power slashed before Brick Break and thus Inner Focus the first ability Slash (but still keep BB and multi scale slashed). Considering you have Life Orb, it isn't a huge deal losing multi scale there and it's probably worth it for the ability to beat Blissey/Chansey with the extra power.
Okay so with the last two sets, would it be possible to merge them into one named "support" which would look like this:
Dragon Tail
Roost
Thunderwave
Substitute / Heal Bell / Fire Punch
ability: Multi Scale / Inner Focus
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
EVs: 244 HP/252 Spdef/12 Spe
Mention in AC about running speed to outpace breloom and running dragon claw in the last slot. I dropped waterfall from the slashes because I'm not sure exactly what it accomplishes that fire punch doesn't better (besides hitting gliscor I guess but I'd rather hit the steels SE then gliscor personally).
I'm not gonna demand you do this but just putting it out there, I'll wait to see what the other QC guys think about this.
Okay so with the last two sets, would it be possible to merge them into one named "support" which would look like this:
Dragon Tail
Roost
Thunderwave
Substitute / Heal Bell / Fire Punch
ability: Multi Scale / Inner Focus
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
EVs: 244 HP/252 Spdef/12 Spe
Mention in AC about running speed to outpace breloom and running dragon claw in the last slot. I dropped waterfall from the slashes because I'm not sure exactly what it accomplishes that fire punch doesn't better (besides hitting gliscor I guess but I'd rather hit the steels SE then gliscor personally).
I'm not gonna demand you do this but just putting it out there, I'll wait to see what the other QC guys think about this.
I disagree with having Inner Focus as the primary ability. You basically said, "I'm going to use a less useful ability for the sole purpose of hitting Blissey". You have to remember, Dnite is as slow as hell using the mixed lead set and thus will need all the bulk he can get. There are other ways to deal with Blissey who is less common now anyway. In return, any water lead such as Politoed, Swampert, Starmie, etc. will just OHKO you with Ice Beam. Not the best trade off in my opinion.
I've actually tried the Superpower Focus set this gen and it sucks.
I've actually tried the Superpower Focus set this gen and it sucks.
Yeah, it doesn't. The only common thing that'll stop the ability from being used at all is mainly Stealth Rock. Sanstorm means nothing.
I'm still going with OC on the Rain sweeper. We need more time with no Drizzle + Swift Swim to see if it's worth it.
Here are my suggestions:
On the mixed attacker, like Panamaxis said, make Superpower the primary option. I think the set should look something like this:
Dragonite @ Life Orb
EVs: 96 Atk / 220 SpAtk / 192 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast / Flamethrower
-Superpower
-Extremespeed / Roost
Additional Comments should mention Earthquake, Outrage, Brick Break, and Thunderbolt. However, remember that Salamence outclasses Dragonite pretty badly if Dragonite gives up Superpower, as Multi-Scale isn't very useful given the popularity of Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and the fact that Dragonite is holding a Life Orb, meaning the ability will only come in useful once, and that's if you're lucky. By the way, you mention Thunderbolt being used to OHKO Cloyster when Draco Meteor already does the same.
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For the Bulky DDNite set, Life Orb shouldn't be an option for the Bulky DD set, as it ruins the whole point of the set. You should also mention a bulkier spread in the AC, possibly with a Careful nature to allow Dragonite to set up on weaker Ice Beams and such.
For the Offensive DDNite set, I think Earthquake is the best option in the fourth slot. Remember that a STAB Outrage is stronger than a 2x Super Effective Thunderpunch. I think that the fourth slot should be "Earthquake / Roost" with Extremespeed and Brick Break (for Balloon Pokemon) mentioned in the AC.
For the CB set you don't really need Brick Break, since EQ breaks Tyranitar, Terakion, and Heatran, and Outrage already breaks Blissey/Chansey. I think the third moveslot should be "Earthquake / Waterfall / Dragon Claw" for this reason; Waterfall also hits Gliscor for SE damage, while Dragon Claw doesn't get you locked into a move like Outrage does. Also mention Superpower in the AC, but remind them that that would require you to use Inner Focus.
Remove Heal Bell from the ParaShuffler imo, since Multi-Scale is the whole point of that set. Also I think you should slash Thudner Wave with Toxic and rename the set "Status Shuffler," but that's your call.
Good work overall, and don't forget to mention the competition Dragonite faces in terms of offensive roles with Salamence.
On the mixed attacker, like Panamaxis said, make Superpower the primary option. I think the set should look something like this:
Dragonite @ Life Orb
EVs: 96 Atk / 220 SpAtk / 192 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast / Flamethrower
-Superpower
-Extremespeed / Roost
Additional Comments should mention Earthquake, Outrage, Brick Break, and Thunderbolt. However, remember that Salamence outclasses Dragonite pretty badly if Dragonite gives up Superpower, as Multi-Scale isn't very useful given the popularity of Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and the fact that Dragonite is holding a Life Orb, meaning the ability will only come in useful once, and that's if you're lucky. By the way, you mention Thunderbolt being used to OHKO Cloyster when Draco Meteor already does the same.
---
For the Bulky DDNite set, Life Orb shouldn't be an option for the Bulky DD set, as it ruins the whole point of the set. You should also mention a bulkier spread in the AC, possibly with a Careful nature to allow Dragonite to set up on weaker Ice Beams and such.
For the Offensive DDNite set, I think Earthquake is the best option in the fourth slot. Remember that a STAB Outrage is stronger than a 2x Super Effective Thunderpunch. I think that the fourth slot should be "Earthquake / Roost" with Extremespeed and Brick Break (for Balloon Pokemon) mentioned in the AC.
For the CB set you don't really need Brick Break, since EQ breaks Tyranitar, Terakion, and Heatran, and Outrage already breaks Blissey/Chansey. I think the third moveslot should be "Earthquake / Waterfall / Dragon Claw" for this reason; Waterfall also hits Gliscor for SE damage, while Dragon Claw doesn't get you locked into a move like Outrage does. Also mention Superpower in the AC, but remind them that that would require you to use Inner Focus.
Remove Heal Bell from the ParaShuffler imo, since Multi-Scale is the whole point of that set. Also I think you should slash Thudner Wave with Toxic and rename the set "Status Shuffler," but that's your call.
Good work overall, and don't forget to mention the competition Dragonite faces in terms of offensive roles with Salamence.
Agreeing with posters who've argued for Superpower+Inner Focus on Mixed Dragonite, LO ruins Multi Scale the majority of times. Sure you can argue that there are some specific scenarios where you can lead off and be slower, take the hit and then retaliate, but it's even easier to argue for all the times when you'll need Superpower to secure a KO and BB will fall short.
And I'm gonna throw it out there, I don't think Leftovers should even be an option for the mixed attacker set, no matter how badly you want your Multi Scale:
Rash, 116Atk Dragonite @ Leftovers Brick Break vs. min hp/def Ttar: 82.1% - 97.4%
That really says a lot I think, I'm not going to do calcs on all sorts of common threats but I'm sure you'd find a bunch of other KO's that Leftovers misses out on.
And I'm gonna throw it out there, I don't think Leftovers should even be an option for the mixed attacker set, no matter how badly you want your Multi Scale:
Rash, 116Atk Dragonite @ Leftovers Brick Break vs. min hp/def Ttar: 82.1% - 97.4%
That really says a lot I think, I'm not going to do calcs on all sorts of common threats but I'm sure you'd find a bunch of other KO's that Leftovers misses out on.
CB Dragonite Earthquake does not OHKO defensive (lead) T-tars; Break Break does 100% of the time. Most Heatrans carry balloon so it's actually better to have Brick Break to hit them SE from the get-go. Terakion is the only option in which EQ is clearly better, but you do almost as much damage from a STAB Outrage (downside of course is being locked). EQ should be slashed, but I still Brick Break should be the primary move on that slot.
I agree with everything you said regarding offensive DD baring again the EQ part.
For the mixed lead sets, I want to emphasize again that Multiscale is absolutely vital. Have you guys tried Superpower Dragonite lead this gen? Exactly what are you going to hit with Superpower? T-Tar, Heatran, Blissey? In return, you give up the ability to survive more or less any attack you opponent throws at you on the first turn. T-tar and Heatran can be dealt in other ways - EQ is an option as well as Brick Break. Blissey is extremely uncommon if not nonexistent as a lead. Remember that Dnite is extremely slow without speed EVs so making it as bulky as possible is necessary to actually let it do its job. There are quite a few things (Politoed being the most threatening; Borotorusu (sp) is another) that can survive a LO Draco Meteor and OHKO back with an ice move if you don't have multi-scale.
I do think people are overestimating the prevalence of Stealth Rock in the current metagame. Decently played Magic Mirror pokemon or a good spinner makes it much harder to set up and maintain rocks throughout the match. Yes, it's still something to watch out for but to say that Salamence instantly outclasses DDNite due to the prevalence of rocks is a little ignorant. We talked about Sand Storm so much on this thread already: it only activates after the first turn if you send out Dnite after one of your own Pokemon fainted and that's only if you don't have leftovers. This gives you the time and protection you need to get at least one DD. Finally, you don't need a Life Orb on the offensive DD set. Leftovers with +1 Outrage destroys everything that doesn't resist it.
Ok, I'll try to put the final tombstone over the 99 we already did on Superpower Lead!
The following calcs were done with psypokes (if it sucks we can redo all the calcs) using a 252 Atk Rash DNite with LO, Ability is Inner Focus with Superpower and Multi Scale with BB.
People are saying you need it to cover Blissey right?
Know how many hits you need to kill 252/252 Bold Blissey with Superpower? Two.
Know how many BBs you need to kill her with the same stats? Two.
Now let's look at Heatran (Timid 252 Spa and Spe) (no EQ mentioned due to sheer balooning), OHKO with Superpower, but he can OHKO first with HP Ice or deal around 70% of your life with Dragon Pulse. BB is a 2HKO that at least grants the first hit will land. Suposing a Dragon Pulse from Heatran, the 2HKO is a given.
TTar is a clear one shot with both moves.
Terakion is OHKO with Superpower, but OHKO you first with Stone Edge. Running BB it's a 2HKO for both sides, but Terakion will win (just meteor his head and even then it's not a clear OHKO).
Draw your conclusions.
The following calcs were done with psypokes (if it sucks we can redo all the calcs) using a 252 Atk Rash DNite with LO, Ability is Inner Focus with Superpower and Multi Scale with BB.
People are saying you need it to cover Blissey right?
Know how many hits you need to kill 252/252 Bold Blissey with Superpower? Two.
Know how many BBs you need to kill her with the same stats? Two.
Now let's look at Heatran (Timid 252 Spa and Spe) (no EQ mentioned due to sheer balooning), OHKO with Superpower, but he can OHKO first with HP Ice or deal around 70% of your life with Dragon Pulse. BB is a 2HKO that at least grants the first hit will land. Suposing a Dragon Pulse from Heatran, the 2HKO is a given.
TTar is a clear one shot with both moves.
Terakion is OHKO with Superpower, but OHKO you first with Stone Edge. Running BB it's a 2HKO for both sides, but Terakion will win (just meteor his head and even then it's not a clear OHKO).
Draw your conclusions.
Ok how about this:
For the mixed attacker we have Brick Break and MultiScale as the primary option and say this works very well as a lead. Then we have Superpower and Inner Focus slashed and we say if you are not using this dragonite as a lead Superpower and Innerfocus is a good alternative (roost also becomes a nice option) due to the prevalence of SS and SR negating Multiscale (or something along these lines and mention how superpower is great for blissey / chansey (DM + superpower might 2HKO blissey but I'm not sure?)). Don't even slash leftovers, Dragonite needs the power of LO.
So the Mixnite set would look something like this:
[SET]
Mixed Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Extreme Speed / Roost
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Brick Break / Superpower / Thunderbolt
ability: Multi Scale / Inner Focus
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Rash
EVs: 116 Atk / 200 SpA / 192 Spe
I'm fine with LO staying a slash on bulky DD but please heavily emphasise leftovers. Last slot in the offensive DD should probably be "Earthquake / Brick Break / Extremespeed" and mention waterfall in AC to 2HKO gliscor without locking yourself into outrage.
For the CB set the third slash should probably be:
move 3: Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Waterfall.
Heatran's the only thing resisting dragon/fire and you can power through that with outrage if necessary. Considering the impeccable coverage you already get Dragon Claw is probably the best move in the third slot so you can fire off powerful dragon moves without locking yourself in early game.
Also @ Delta I tried the parashuffler set and it was really underwhelming; it could paralyze and get up to 100% but if it wants to phaze it has to take a hit anyway and its gonna face the next thing out without having multiscale active which is why I suggested running heal bell so it can support the team more. Basically, multiscale is good on that dnite for when it first comes out but after that it's not so great "multiscale-wise".
For the mixed attacker we have Brick Break and MultiScale as the primary option and say this works very well as a lead. Then we have Superpower and Inner Focus slashed and we say if you are not using this dragonite as a lead Superpower and Innerfocus is a good alternative (roost also becomes a nice option) due to the prevalence of SS and SR negating Multiscale (or something along these lines and mention how superpower is great for blissey / chansey (DM + superpower might 2HKO blissey but I'm not sure?)). Don't even slash leftovers, Dragonite needs the power of LO.
So the Mixnite set would look something like this:
[SET]
Mixed Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Extreme Speed / Roost
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Brick Break / Superpower / Thunderbolt
ability: Multi Scale / Inner Focus
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Rash
EVs: 116 Atk / 200 SpA / 192 Spe
I'm fine with LO staying a slash on bulky DD but please heavily emphasise leftovers. Last slot in the offensive DD should probably be "Earthquake / Brick Break / Extremespeed" and mention waterfall in AC to 2HKO gliscor without locking yourself into outrage.
For the CB set the third slash should probably be:
move 3: Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Waterfall.
Heatran's the only thing resisting dragon/fire and you can power through that with outrage if necessary. Considering the impeccable coverage you already get Dragon Claw is probably the best move in the third slot so you can fire off powerful dragon moves without locking yourself in early game.
Also @ Delta I tried the parashuffler set and it was really underwhelming; it could paralyze and get up to 100% but if it wants to phaze it has to take a hit anyway and its gonna face the next thing out without having multiscale active which is why I suggested running heal bell so it can support the team more. Basically, multiscale is good on that dnite for when it first comes out but after that it's not so great "multiscale-wise".